PENN HIP and OFA

[Munster]

Can one of you more knowledgable members please explain the differance.
Why do you have to wait until the dog is 2 for OFA and not for PENN HIP. WHich is more accurate.
Why does OFA use Fair-Excellent and the other just numbers? How do you know if your dog is concidered displastic with PENN HIP?

Thanks

[kninebirddog]

OFA waits till the bones have time to mature and if they are going to show any arthritic changes. PENN hip does rate more but I personally think it os a complete waste of money to try and do any evaluaton before 7 Months of age as there is much growth between 4 moms and 6 months as I have personally took pups on and did a monthly x ray so my vet and I had some records of dogs and at 12 weeks through 16 weeks. I wouldn't have giving you 50 bucks re way the hips looked and at 8 months they looked good and growth plates and then at 2 they ofa as good.
I prefer ofa as tie has a way to see on line a hitory of dogs done and also of dogs are permanent id then he akc reg will also show he results
penn hip your percentile will change as more dogs are done and this is stated on re penn hip papers and penn hip there os no way to research anything past your Dog

Neither one is perfect. But a dog that has an ofa number with a good background os what you want sire ofa excellent sounds great bt ofa excellent with a dysplastic background is worse then an ofa fair wit a more solid back ground

[birddog1968]

Have a read...supposedly Penn Hip is a more thorough test.

If you've never been to U of Penn vet hospital it is top of the line and the people there are some of the best in the nation.

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.a ... du/pennhip

Vid from U of Penn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG_fJvevbJ8

[briarpatch]

From what i have read only the Penn Hip looks like a more thorough test but what the heck do the numbers mean ?
I am going with OFA just because its easier for most potential buyers and even myself to understand, everyone can understand what good, fair, excellent, mild ect. means ..they also have a great website that not only can you see what your dog scored but any of his/her siblings or ancesters scored if they have been tested.. Giving someone a more complete view of a line /or what a breeder is putting out if they have been hip tested..

[mcbosco]

From what i have read only the Penn Hip looks like a more thorough test but what the heck do the numbers mean ?
I am going with OFA just because its easier for most potential buyers and even myself to understand, everyone can understand what good, fair, excellent, mild ect. means ..they also have a great website that not only can you see what your dog scored but any of his/her siblings or ancesters scored if they have been tested.. Giving someone a more complete view of a line /or what a breeder is putting out if they have been hip tested..

The Penn Hip numbers compare your dog to other dogs of the same breed, and thus the results are expressed as a percentile ranking. This is probably fine for a GSP or Brittany but I doubt enough Spinone or other rare breeds have been Penn'd to make the number mean anything.

[kninebirddog]

Neither system is nor ever will be perfect

and Neither one can or ever will be able to produce the perfect bone structure in pups I sure wish when we bought a vehicle we would get a life time warranty

along with gdblitz post

Try and find out from PENN hip what numbers are good...I have seen breeders who have gone to penn hip and when visiting their site i see the numbers which they claim acceptable change
like one time state a .40 and last time I look a .53 was acceptable and imagine when you looked at the dogs scores that they are breeding and one has a .52

For me if a dog can't pass OFA it doesn't pass my program I am not going to run and pay double the costs to PENN hip just to cloud up the dogs hips with some fancy numbers to condone breeding to it.

[birddog1968]

Neither system is nor ever will be perfect

and Neither one can or ever will be able to produce the perfect bone structure in pups I sure wish when we bought a vehicle we would get a life time warranty

along with gdblitz post

Try and find out from PENN hip what numbers are good...I have seen breeders who have gone to penn hip and when visiting their site i see the numbers which they claim acceptable change
like one time state a .40 and last time I look a .53 was acceptable and imagine when you looked at the dogs scores that they are breeding and one has a .52

For me if a dog can't pass OFA it doesn't pass my program I am not going to run and pay double the costs to PENN hip just to cloud up the dogs hips with some fancy numbers to condone breeding to it.

Penn Hip doesn't cloud anything, dishonest breeders might but not Penn Hip. A dog with good Penn Hip numbers is going to score high on OFA as well....its all about understanding. Penn hip is more thorough as it uses 3 xrays instead of one (which might be skewed by positioning).

Some more informative reading
http://www.workingdogs.com/ofa_penn.htm

an interesting part of that reading says- "OFA statistics are scewed because, not all films are sent in (or required to be). PennHip requires all films, weather showing horrible hips or not, be sent in and entered into the database."

[Fireside]

OFA scores hips against a hypothetical standard. PENN HIP rates against other dogs of the same breed.

If you have a "rare" breed, there might not be much of sample to compare to for a PENN HIP. If you have a dog from a breed that is notorious for poor hip joint conformation... you might have the best example they have ever seen... with a great PENN HIP score, but the same dog could get a Fair (or worse) rating from OFA.

[ezzy333]

Penn Hip numbers compare your dog to other dogs of the same breed, and thus the results are expressed as a percentile ranking.

The problem I have with this is the numbers that fit in the persentile changes. Let say if you have a dog with .35/.35 , 60 th persentile and a bunch of dogs are exrayed with very tight hips the numbers that fit the 60 % will be tighter, say .32/.32.. That .35/.35 could know be in the 50th persentile. Some say throw out the persentile and go by the numbers.

But remember the rating of your dog does not change but just where he would fit into the list of dogs of that breed. Hopefully the dogs are getting better so your dog will slide down the list but the test results are still the same and always will be.

I think if you are looking where your dogs fits in the scale is the wrong thing to be concerned with as the important figure is the space the dog is showing. Thats why it is a good test no matter how many dogs have been tested in your breed. Are the hips good or bad? Where does it rank within my breed? Two questions are answered but the important one is how is my dog's hips.


Ezzy

[birddog1968]

its also shows hip scores in different extensions more closely representing real world movement. OFA just shows one slightly unnatural position.

[birddog1968]

its also shows hip scores in different extensions more closely representing real world movement. OFA just shows one slightly unnatural position.

Penn I believe takes 3 x-rays , 1 is the same as OFA.

Thats right ! and 2 they didn't even think about in the 70's when OFA came about, ain't progress grand.

All kidding aside, I am glad this area of vet medicine is still being explored....more understanding is always good. I believe Penn Hip testing is about 10 years old now.

I have been to U of Penn Vet hospital on numerous occasions and can tell you it is top notch place with top notch people, they have saved more than one of our pointing dogs before. Having been there I have complete confidence in their method, its understanding it and accepting it that is the part people seem to have trouble with. I believe the testing method is very sound , well thought out and researched.

[birddog1968]

I don't think they will evaluate a bad x ray, they just want them sent in....if the x rays aren't of sufficent quality to get accurate readings they will ask for them to be redone....if your vets x rays are of poor quality or PennHip won't evaluate then they should be redone by the vet at no charge, or that might be a good indication for you to seek another vet to do the x rays.

It is a benefit to live close to U of Penn and have them done by the horses mouth so to speak. There is a website detailing what good and bad x rays look like and how a vet shouldn't re-charge for bad x rays....I will see if I can find it.

Thats a good point tho and would be worth asking UPvet first hand. I am guessing if they get enough x rays from a particular vet that can't be accurately evaluated they might yank that vets Penn Hip certification.

[birddog1968]

found it, it really doesn't relate directly to pennhip but its a good read.
I believe the pennhip website shows examples of their positioning.

http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

[kninebirddog]

http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

and Why I lean towards OFA
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1407951#animal

http://www.offa.org/vertpedigree.html?a ... 951#animal

I think a glimpse into what dogs that are directly relate to my dogs is better then a general pool of the breed But in Either case Phenotype Data is only going to be related to those dogs that are done..Neither is a Genetic test so neither will ever get HD cleared from our animals..Mother Nature has a way to remind us we are only human

[Coveyrise64]

its also shows hip scores in different extensions more closely representing real world movement. OFA just shows one slightly unnatural position.

In the penn hip exam I understood one xray was taken at the point of near dislocation of the joint. Is that true? Not sure how this could be real world position for the dog. Help me out on this.......

Coveyrise64

[kninebirddog]

its also shows hip scores in different extensions more closely representing real world movement. OFA just shows one slightly unnatural position.

In the penn hip exam I understood one xray was taken at the point of near dislocation of the joint. Is that true? Not sure how this could be real world position for the dog. Help me out on this.......

Coveyrise64

yes one xray they put a block between the dogs legs and then squeeze the legs together to see how far the hip will come out of the socket

plus the dog has to be fully anesthetized for PENN hip where OFA many vets can get a dog x rayed with out anesthesia

[birddog1968]

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip/P ... fault.aspx

don't see any blocks of wood in those x rays not that it would mean anything if that's the proven method to get an accurate measurement of the hip joints.

[Coveyrise64]

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip/P ... fault.aspx

don't see any blocks of wood in those x rays not that it would mean anything if that's the proven method to get an accurate measurement of the hip joints.

In the distracted view, it looks like some type of force, either physical or mechanical would have to be applied to get that amount of lateral displacement in the hip joint. Assuming a force is applied to achieve that amount of deflection, how is that amount of force measured? If the amount of force applied is less than or greater than a set standard it stands to reason it could influence the measurement. Unless the same amount of force isn't applied to every dog of the breed being tested then I could see how this method could a hypothetical standard as well. What if the amount of force applied to achieve the deflection was excessive, could damage to the fibrous elements of the joint capsule occur? The additional cost isn't worth it to me and it appears penn hip could be just as subjective as OFA.

Coveyrise64

[birddog1968]

To each their own....I'm not comfortable with anything so closely linked with AKC and certainly not comfortable relying on 1970's knowledge when more current research has been done.

If i was going to breed my dogs they would get pennhip because its a more thorough test and based on more current in depth research.

[kninebirddog]

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip/P ... fault.aspx

don't see any blocks of wood in those x rays not that it would mean anything if that's the proven method to get an accurate measurement of the hip joints.

In the distracted view, it looks like some type of force, either physical or mechanical would have to be applied to get that amount of lateral displacement in the hip joint. Assuming a force is applied to achieve that amount of deflection, how is that amount of force measured? If the amount of force applied is less than or greater than a set standard it stands to reason it could influence the measurement. Unless the same amount of force isn't applied to every dog of the breed being tested then I could see how this method could a hypothetical standard as well. What if the amount of force applied to achieve the deflection was excessive, could damage the fibrous elements of the joint capsule occur? The additional cost isn't worth it to me and it appears penn hip could be just as subjective as OFA.

Coveyrise64

Coveyrise I agree

I was also told if a dog sustains a hip injury which causes any scarring of the tissue this can cause a tighter reading as it will cause the muscles and tendons to be more rigid

Both are subjective and rely on human handling positioning and judgment and have nothing to do with the genetics and until that genetic marker is found which even if it is I seriously doubt there is anyway for us humans to create the perfect genetic issue free dog with out loosing what we want in the field or as a pet as we will be breeding on genetic markers and not for traits we seek in our companions.

So I will stick with OFA myself and require any female that comes to my kennel to have an OFA done.

Basically the OFA versus PENN Hip comes down to which do you feel more comfortable with. Which ever you should choose find out the correct information so that when a client comes to get a pup from you that they have a way to understand and can research it themselves so they also feel comfortable with the choice they are making

[Ruffshooter]

OFA is a judgement based upon all dogs. (subjective) and a wide margin of error.
Penn Hip is a measurement, based upon your breed. (scientific) acutal measurement.
The measurements that end up with an index number closer to .30 will be less likely to develop problems with their hips short of injury. No matter what your breed you want he number to be towards the .30 not up near .60. (A dog with a .60 will likely develop displaysia) My Stella French brit has .60 at 7 or a 8 months old and is displastic right as a puppy. Penn Hip does tell you if your dog is displastic. as with STella.

I tested my Buster FB twice, once as a pup, If I remember correctly, both were .35 at 9 months old. Tested him two or three years later just for my own saticfation and one hip was .35 and the other was .37. That .37 hip he had bruised pretty good on a particular hunting trip that took a few weeks to get back to hunting. (not sure if that is why the diff. number.

The Percentile rating is not what one should look at for breeding purposes, it is the acutal index number, that is what matters. The french brittany club"chose .50 as the worse case to breed" (I did not agree with that and well no longer participated in helping develp the policy.)

There have been breeds that had bad hips as a matter of fact or what ever, and wanted to do lessen the occurances of displaysia. Breeding tighter hips to tighter hips will eventually lead to less occurance of displaysia.

One should research for them selves but for me. It makes more sense and is actual phsyical, scientifically supported.

Just for the books. As every one knows you can do everything in the world to try to prevent these type problems but sometimes it just happens. You as a breeder should be working to lessen those occurances. IMHO.

[birddog1968]

Thanks for the first hand info Rick, very informative.

[Coveyrise64]

The fact the same x-ray taken for an OFA exam is included in a penn hip procedure indicates it is very much a part of their scientific study of CHD. The measurement you refer to indicates the amount of laxity in the hip joint tissue which, according to their data, correlates to the "susceptibility to osteoarthritis" in dogs that an OFA exam fails to address. It doesn’t say the amount of laxity “directly contributes to osteoarthritis”. Their own use of terminology (“susceptibility to osteoarthritis”), the quality of the x-rays submitted, and the skill level of those involved in positioning the dog during the penn hip procedure leads me to believe the evaluation can still be just as subjective as the OFA.

Coveyrise64

[kninebirddog]

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see if a dog is truly dysplastic even as a young dog

Here is a dog at 9 months old and there is nothing a vet can do to reposition this dog to show anything other then Severely dysplastic


here is an 18 month old this one is moderate she is still hunting hard at 5 years old
]

OFA Mild this one has poor weight baring side and is shallow though her femoral heads are nice..she probably will never show any clinical signs till she is much older that her hips are not passing


OFA FAIR evening trying to reposition this dog a shallow hip is a shallow hip Taking another x ray and sending in again will only get the same results and that is fair


OFA Good


here is a 7 year old dog that finally to continue to be a guide dog had to have some medical intervention

Here is the dog after having FHO's done

[Ruffshooter]

"The additional cost isn't worth it to me ." I think that is why so many are opposed to Penn Hip. It is expensive. Not to mention that breeders had nothing else prior, (that was documented and certified) and don't want someone saying that their breeding program is scewed by a subjective evalutation. "I am a good breeder I do OFA."

"The penn hip procedure leads me to believe the evaluation can still be just as subjective as the OFA". Measurements are not subjective. The Techs or Vets are trained to do the Xrays and positioning, they are not left to their own to figure it out.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see if a dog is truly dysplastic" No kidding. The Penn Hip not only addresses the current hip but the possibilities or propensity for a dog to develop problems, barring damage or some other unknow.

There of course is always the possibility that human error can occur. I had one dog done and the Vet was new to the Penn Hip although trained and he got a nitrogen bubble (like cracking your knuckles) and had to do the xrays again on another day.The bubble does not allow for a proper measurement.

There are those that suggest that damage occurs by doing Penn Hip. Really? You think they would risk the reputation of the University, vets or being sued? What proof is there that this happens not to mention on a regular basis.

They use a jig for the positioning of the dogs legs to distract the joint. They are to use a certain amount of pressure I do not remember how much.

What does a fair hip evaluation by OFA mean? Let me tell you. It is not an excellent or good hip. Thats it, no debate. You can debate wether the hip will be a problem for the dog if ever but not the quality of the hip.

I am no scholar on the subject and it has been a long time since I researched the subject. For me It makes sense and will continue to have my dogs tested if I choose to keep a dog for possible breeding.
This will get over my head quick. So I am out and have nothing more to add. But this is a good subject, with good responses.

Rick

[Munster]

"The additional cost isn't worth it to me ." There of course is always the possibility that human error can occur. I had one dog done and the Vet was new to the Penn Hip although trained and he got a nitrogen bubble (like cracking your knuckles) and had to do the xrays again on another day.The bubble does not allow for a proper measurement.

Rick

I am going to stick with PennHip for now. And the human error thing is very possible I think with both tests.

I am going to a Dr. here in Iowa that I know has been doing this for many years. I had even had her Penn Hip my GSD's when I had them. I am hoping this will eliminate some of the human error.

My concern has been, if you have a Lesser known breed like ours and say only 100 have been Penn Hiped. Then how accurate is the Penn Hip test, if they compare only to others in your breed? But it sounds like there is alot more to it then that.

Thanks for the info, it has been very informative and a great discussion.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
I use the Penn-Hip testing but I wait until my dogs are over 1 1/2 to have the test done. I am not a breeder but if I want to breed one of my dogs to replenish my Grouse dog kennel, I want the Penn-Hip health testing history for mating my dogs. My dogs are also chipped at that time, because the Penn-Hip test demands chipping for positive identification. I live here in Pa and we now have more than a few places to have the test done, by Penn State trained Vets. I do believe the Penn-Hip test is the best American Hip test on the market today, it does cost more than the OFA, but the final results rank my dog against all other dogs of the same breed, giving the owner the standing in percentile, as to just where that particular tested animal stands, against all other dogs tested of the same breed. So if I need a stud for my Ryman female I know exactly where that Stud dogs Penn-Hip test places him, for Hip quality. In this manner I can make an educated health judgement on picking a stud dog to service my female. To me this is all important stuff, to some others it means little.
RGD/Dave