Food type recommendations

Sweetvalleylab · Post by **Sweetvalleylab** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 am

I am the proud owner of Hank, a 9 week old yellow lab. The woman I got him from was feeding him puppy chow. I am not a big fan of puppy chow and he doesn't really seem too interested in it as he only eats bites at a time.

So my question is, what brands of food do you all recommend?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:18 am

Hey listen, sounds like you got a nice puppy if he only eats one piece at a time. Labs eat like vacuum cleaners and pay for it later in life so count your blessings.

As for foods, Labs get chubby easily so you should use a food with at least 25% protein but with a moderate level of fat.

Royal Canin makes a very logical Labrador food, high protein, low fat and a ginormous kibble size to slow them down when they eat.

But any quality large breed/all life stage food is good. I used the Royal Canin food to illustrate a hypertechnical approach to feeding a Lab.

Sweetvalleylab · Post by **Sweetvalleylab** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:40 pm

Thanks for the reply! Right now I'm leaning towards Diamond products.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:56 pm

You can also look at Costco's Kirkland & 4 Health they are very similar to Diamond Natural and made by Diamond. Costco's food is $25 for 40lbs.

jmsgunner · Post by **jmsgunner** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:32 am

I don't have a lab. I feed Blue Buffalo products. Either the large breed chicken and rice or one of their grain free higher protien.

There are some great websites that you can check out that rate foods. I believe one is dogfoodanalysis.com. Just do a google search.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:40 am

BB's new Large Breed Grain Free would be a great diet for a Labrador or Golden. The Non-Grain Free for Large Breeds look good too. High protein lower fat.

settergal83 · Post by **settergal83** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:04 pm

I've always liked Purina. Dogs always did good on it. Never noticed bloat or sour stomach with it either. But then where I am it's hard to get feed. Only a wally world and a farm king so choices are limited unless i wanna drive about 45 min.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:41 pm

I switched from ol roy to purina dog chow until I figured what I wanted to switch to for good. But I have actually noticed firmer (way more firm) stool than before. I may stick with the twenty dollar dog food (44lb bag) if it remains the better victor. I just started an adult daily vitamin as well from walmart about four days ago today, now I need to see how well they do performance wise.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:09 pm

I'm not going to step on a soap box here, just give some wisdom from what I've learned, and what I help teach people every day at the high end retail store I work out.

Dog food is complex, and it is rarely transparent. There is a difference between cost per bag versus cost per serving. And I don't care what brands are out there, and which you prefer, just make sure to stick to some basic principles. Here they are in short. If you want any other information, or want advice, or have questions, pm me, I don't want to anger anyone feeding brand a, or brand b. That is far from my goal here. Ultimately, dog food comes down to what agrees with the dog.

Avoid these ingredients-
Corn, Wheat, Soy, Animal Digest, Animal fat, meat and bone meal, by products of any kind. These ingredients are by and large the main reasons dogs are becoming diseased more frequently. They are the leading cause of allergens, carcinogens, etc. Conclusion, the more you feed these ingredients, the more you are shortening the dog's potential lifespan. A genetic cellular study by a well known university found that on a cellular level, dogs and cats should be living into their 30's, but because of both environmental issues and poor nutrition, we are shortening those life spans. Their cells have the ability to live basically double what most dogs actually live to.

Unnamed ingredients such as animal digest, animal fat, and meat and bone meal are amongst the absolute worst ingredients you can find in a dog food. Animal digest is an unregulated term, and recent studies *there are multiple*, have found sodium pentobarbital in animal digest, meat and bone meal, animal fat, and meat meals. This means that your dog and cat food, probably has actual dog and cat as a protein or fat source. That drug sp is used to euthanize animals and shows up because it doesn't burn off during the extrusion. It is real, not a myth. If the social taboo part isn't enough to scare you, think about exactly why that animal was euthanized....cancer, disease, dying. Those are reasons you euthanize animals. Now your dog is eating the diseased tissue. Not the best choice of ingredient.

As for corn, wheat, soy- It comes down to allergens. Corn is a cheap, nutritionally void ingredient used as a filler. The problem is, it is not complete in amino acids, and simply cannot be digested- by humans OR dogs. Not completely. These ingredients have been used for decades as cheap substitutes for whole grains, or grain free alternatives.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:26 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:I'm not going to step on a soap box here, just give some wisdom from what I've learned, and what I help teach people every day at the high end retail store I work out.

Dog food is complex, and it is rarely transparent. There is a difference between cost per bag versus cost per serving. And I don't care what brands are out there, and which you prefer, just make sure to stick to some basic principles. Here they are in short. If you want any other information, or want advice, or have questions, pm me, I don't want to anger anyone feeding brand a, or brand b. That is far from my goal here. Ultimately, dog food comes down to what agrees with the dog.

Avoid these ingredients-
Corn, Wheat, Soy, Animal Digest, Animal fat, meat and bone meal, by products of any kind. These ingredients are by and large the main reasons dogs are becoming diseased more frequently. They are the leading cause of allergens, carcinogens, etc. Conclusion, the more you feed these ingredients, the more you are shortening the dog's potential lifespan. A genetic cellular study by a well known university found that on a cellular level, dogs and cats should be living into their 30's, but because of both environmental issues and poor nutrition, we are shortening those life spans. Their cells have the ability to live basically double what most dogs actually live to.

Unnamed ingredients such as animal digest, animal fat, and meat and bone meal are amongst the absolute worst ingredients you can find in a dog food. Animal digest is an unregulated term, and recent studies *there are multiple*, have found sodium pentobarbital in animal digest, meat and bone meal, animal fat, and meat meals. This means that your dog and cat food, probably has actual dog and cat as a protein or fat source. That drug sp is used to euthanize animals and shows up because it doesn't burn off during the extrusion. It is real, not a myth. If the social taboo part isn't enough to scare you, think about exactly why that animal was euthanized....cancer, disease, dying. Those are reasons you euthanize animals. Now your dog is eating the diseased tissue. Not the best choice of ingredient.

As for corn, wheat, soy- It comes down to allergens. Corn is a cheap, nutritionally void ingredient used as a filler. The problem is, it is not complete in amino acids, and simply cannot be digested- by humans OR dogs. Not completely. These ingredients have been used for decades as cheap substitutes for whole grains, or grain free alternatives.

HjGriffNut,

A nicely written post but there is little truth to what you are saying. If you want to know the truth please PM me as I am tired of having to post the same material over and over.

Ezzy

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:36 pm

Sorry ezzy, but I can back up anything written in my post. It is unfortunate but true. Please feel free to point out what you think is incorrect though.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:55 pm

Sorry NJGriffNut, but you are wrong and Ezzy is correct.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:58 pm

jmsgunner wrote:I don't have a lab. I feed Blue Buffalo products. Either the large breed chicken and rice or one of their grain free higher protien.

There are some great websites that you can check out that rate foods. I believe one is dogfoodanalysis.com. Just do a google search.

There is no credibility to any of these sites that rate dog food. dogfoodanalysis is one of them....Pay no attention to them.

Charlie

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:00 pm

Again, wrong about what? Nobody is pointing anything out.

Everything in there is correct. Of course ezzy is probably pro grain, he is a farmer. It would be counter-intuitive for him to be otherwise.

For the record, the correct evolutionary diet is RAW. It is what I feed. If not, it is a grain free food, free of by products, filler, and 3 d meats- Dead, Diseased, and Dying.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:09 pm

First of all welcome to the forum! Since you are a new member, you are probably not aware that this subject has been hashed over so many times in the past that people are tired of it and many have complained about it. I also, do not want to get into details again since I too, am tired of arguing the point. If you do a search here, you will find everything we are talking about.

Charlie

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:23 pm

This is a subject that has been beat more to death then any other out there

Corn if properly processed is Digestable
Wheat can also be good

Many of those dog analysis sites are paid for ..and of course are going to promote those high dollar feeds which are no better then many of the feeds the bash

Many people get that fuzzy feel good by buying a food the is free of this free of that

PS By products also natural source of glucosimane and contrary to belief is not the hoof hide and horn or beaks feathers and bones of chicken like many of these places like to cloud as Bad

hearts lungs the cleaned inners of an animal are actually far more beneficial then just the muscle ..but it is we humans that find byproducts gross to think about and is the preferred parts

As Ezzy said he will be happy to repeat much of what he has to say...or you can research the food section and see the same thing over and over again

Fancy names with fancy prices are just that ..I have seen dogs live to 12 plus years old being fed ole roy..not my choice of feed for my dogs prefer Loyall Feed my dogs have great coats good energy and maintain weight great whelp weights on the pups and are higher on this food then others I had my females on and they have had decent whelp weights on pups with prior foods I have had them on some better then others but this Loyall performance has been the best over all.. That tells me right there my dogs are getting plenty of needed nutrition when the female is maintaining great weight and the pups are whelped with the smallest ones at 10 oz ..normally that is a high end average weight

anyways ...glad you are happy with what ever you are with...Have a great 4th

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:24 pm

No please do because this is something I am VERY familiar with. I have scanned the posts, and have seen some responses by ezzy. In some he was correct- one post was about raw meaty bones. One he was wrong, about unethical manufacturers.

He asked what was an unethical manufacturer to another member, and what ingredients were bad. I will give an example. Taste of the Wild by Diamond. Why? Because for all but the last few months (many years ongoing), they cheated the under regulated business of pet food manufacturing. Neither AAFCO, the people who define ingredients and who come up with the required analysis of pet food, NOR the FDA have stepped up to make pet food as regulated as human food. The result is glaring, 1997 and every year in between where pets died because their lack of due diligence. Back to Diamond's Taste of the Wild. If you scoured their food's ingredient panel, you would see what seems to be a pretty well put together food. It is grain free, named ingredients, no byproducts or filler. What the consumer wouldn't be aware of, was that the food contained a known canine carcinogen. And it wasn't even required to be listed on the bag. Why is that? Because pet food manufacturers are required to only list what they put into the bag themselves, not what ended up in the bag as a result of their suppliers. So while the food looked great, the people didn't know that the food contained ethoxyquin, you know a rubber stabilizer and herbicide. In essence, they were misrepresenting their ingredient panel to consumers because it was used, by request by the company to their suppliers, as a preservative for fish and other proteins.

Another unethical manufacturer is Evangers. There story is currently unfolding, but it is a more direct misrepresentation of what was included in the canned dog food.

I would also say that Science Diet, Pedigree are both unethical for various reasons. 1. SD had the nerve to post on their website that feeding a raw diet was unsafe, and not as good as their food. (A louder laugh I haven't had this year), and both companies provide stipends to vets offices if they stock and recommend their foods to their clients.

A note- I would guess, that 90% of those vets that carry the foods in house, do NOT have nutritional degrees. They couldn't.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:30 pm

kninebirddog wrote:This is a subject that has been beat more to death then any other out there

Corn if properly processed is Digestable - Incorrect. If properly processed it is partially digestible.
Wheat can also be good - Wheat is a less expensive, less nutritionally packed grain. It is a known allergen under wheat gluten. What is less bad.

Many of those dog analysis sites are paid for ..and of course are going to promote those high dollar feeds which are no better then many of the feeds the bash= Here we completely agree.

Many people get that fuzzy feel good by buying a food the is free of this free of that- Again, I agree.

PS By products also natural source of glucosimane and contrary to belief is not the hoof hide and horn or beaks legs and bones of chicken like many of these places like to cloud as Bad

Here is a touchy subject, but I also agree to a point. I know what by products can be and what it can't, however. It is not as good as whole chicken or chicken meal etc. Also, because it is a by product you need to be familiar with that manufacturer and its processing practices.

hearts lungs the cleaned inners of an animal are actually far more beneficial then just the muscle ..but it is we humans that find byproducts gross to think about and is the preferred parts - I agree, that is not why I dislike byproducts. I feed raw with byproducts, but they are named byproducts. If it is not named I would not feed it. I do feed Beef Heart, Beef Liver, etc.

Fancy names with fancy prices are just that ..I have seen dogs live to 12 plus years old being fed ole roy- Oh, I also agree. I said, ultimately it is how the dog does on the food. However, you are stacking the dog against the odds, requiring it to do so on genetics alone. I wouldn't risk it.

.
:

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:44 pm

I would also say that Science Diet, Pedigree are both unethical for various reasons. 1. SD had the nerve to post on their website that feeding a raw diet was unsafe, and not as good as their food. (A louder laugh I haven't had this year), and both companies provide stipends to vets offices if they stock and recommend their foods to their clients.

I am not a fan of Science Diet, but the statement that feeding a raw diet can be unsafe is very true. Feeding raw is fine if one is willing to go to the trouble and inconvenience, but you better be very knowledgeable and know exactly what you are doing [not saying that you don't] or the dog won't be getting everything needed. I would also think that if a person had more than a couple of dogs or a large kennel, it would be almost impossible to feed raw and do it properly.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:50 pm

Most vets don't have a nutritional degree because they are not formulating feeds for dogs or any other animal. We pay dearly for people with Masters and even Doctors degrees to do that and the feed manufacturing company or a university pays for that. We actually had two in our company most of the time. Besides the actual formulation they were in charge of all of the feed tests that were done at the research farm. Our vet did help with posting animals and a multitude of other activities that were essential in qualifying the results of such test.

Your dog food analysis is about as flawed as your information of who I am and what I do for a living. Let me ask just two questions for you to ponder. What is a filler and why would one be used? And number two, since you say corn is indigestible for animals as well as humans, why is it the number one feed used to fatten every domestic animal we have including dogs and it ranks quite high for humans also?

Welcome to the board, and we will be glad to help you with anything you are questioning. We have many breeders,trialers, trainers, and very experienced dog owners plus our share of veterinarians that will be glad to chime in too. You can ignore the ones of us that have worked in all areas of feed manufacturing and marketing though because we do know a little about the areas we work in and make our living at.

Ezzy

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:56 pm

birddogger wrote:
I would also say that Science Diet, Pedigree are both unethical for various reasons. 1. SD had the nerve to post on their website that feeding a raw diet was unsafe, and not as good as their food. (A louder laugh I haven't had this year), and both companies provide stipends to vets offices if they stock and recommend their foods to their clients.

I am not a fan of Science Diet, but the statement that feeding a raw diet can be unsafe is very true. Feeding raw is fine if one is willing to go to the trouble and inconvenience, but you better be very knowledgeable and know exactly what you are doing [not saying that you don't] or the dog won't be getting everything needed. I would also think that if a person had more than a couple of dogs or a large kennel, it would be almost impossible to feed raw and do it properly.

Charlie

I agree with everything you said Charlie. If I had more than 2 dogs, I wouldn't even be able to afford it. However, I do not think it is all that unsafe, you simply need to treat it like one does their own raw food ingredients. As for the completeness of the diet, hey, I agree again. Science Diet had some other very bad statements on their front page though, simply unfounded claims. But, raw is something that not everyone will do, should do, etc. For one, it is not as convenient. Two, it can be rather expensive buying commercial diets, and it is a pain in the "bleep" to source good ingredients and grind it yourself, adding in the other aspects of required canine nutrition. Kibble will remain, and I don't have a problem with that. But some ingredients are better than others, some foods better than others.

Also, about these high cost, "uber premium" foods, all of the previous applies to them as well. They are not excluded because the food costs 40,50,60,70,80+ dollars a bag. Then again some aren't as expensive as they seem because you feed less. It works both ways. Less expensive foods may not be the deal they seem.

If it works for your dog, keep using it. If it doesn't, do your best to try and find a food that meets your requirements- cost, ingredients, company history, etc.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:57 pm

Glad you like the food you feed your dog and the parameters you have set for yourself and your dog.

Just as I am extremely satisfied with how well my dogs do on the Loyall foods we feed

and perform well on it . and PS we feed about 50 plus dogs a day ranging from about 16 years old on down.

So I will just leave it at that and agree to disagree on what we feel are good and quality feeds processing and ingredients for our dogs.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Most vets don't have a nutritional degree because they are not formulating feeds for dogs or any other animal. We pay dearly for people with Masters and even Doctors degrees to do that and the feed manufacturing company or a university pays for that. We actually had two in our company most of the time. Besides the actual formulation they were in charge of all of the feed tests that were done at the research farm. Our vet did help with posting animals and a multitude of other activities that were essential in qualifying the results of such test.

Your dog food analysis is about as flawed as your information of who I am and what I do for a living. Let me ask just two questions for you to ponder. What is a filler and why would one be used? And number two, since you say corn is indigestible for animals as well as humans, why is it the number one feed used to fatten every domestic animal we have including dogs and it ranks quite high for humans also?

Welcome to the board, and we will be glad to help you with anything you are questioning. We have many breeders,trialers, trainers, and very experienced dog owners plus our share of veterinarians that will be glad to chime in too. You can ignore the ones of us that have worked in all areas of feed manufacturing and marketing though because we do know a little about the areas we work in and make our living at.

Ezzy

First about the nutritional degree, that is true. However, they are essentially accepting brides in exchange for putting product in peoples hands. Second, good vets DO have nutritional degrees, and those are the ones you should consider. Then again, I like having multiple vets, because no single person knows everything, and having a repro specialist, surgeon, university are all good to have behind you and your champion.

My analysis is far from flawed, it is fact. As for your questions, and I will give examples, historically, and currently. Filler in dog food is an ingredient that adds weight to a bag while providing less nutrition then comparable ingredients which would raise the cost. Examples- Dried Brewers Yeast- A byproduct of the fermentation process in the brewing industry. For years, this was used in dog food formulas. It has less nutritional benefits then whole grains, potato, sweet potato, etc. Currently, companies are using corn as a filler. Pedigree is an example of a company using it, as they are using it as both a carbohydrate, and a major protein source. Clearly, a better ingredient to be at the front of a dog food ingredient list would be a named protein, and named protein meal.

As for corn, it is used because it is cheap. It is not the best thing you can be feeding.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:07 pm

I think everyone is crazy when it comes to dog food. My buddies 15 year old gsp eats ole roy everyday and she still hunts a couple of hours at a time. She also eats her own crap and any other crap she finds. Dogs are dogs and like everything else we over analyze anything and everything and even though we do it in the best interest of our dogs it just doesn't matter. If the dogs look good and their teeth is good and your happy what difference does it make what we feed them. If I had one dog I would feed pro plan performance because my dogs look the best and their stool is good and firm, but I have 4 dogs and I feed sportmix because they look good, they eat it, and I can buy 2 bags of it for the cost of one bag of PP.

Brian

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:10 pm

As for Loyall it is far from SD, Pedigree, Beneful etc so that is fine. It works, and you have a huge amount of dogs. I get that. For example though the first ingredient in adult maintenance is poultry by product meal. This means by definition by AAFCO, it consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

That is okay, but, a better ingredient would be Chicken by product meal, or turkey by product meal, or goose by product meal. A named by product meal. Again though, and I've seen this with many dogs, if it works, then it works. Let em loose, find a bird, shoot and retrieve. It is all good.

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:14 pm

I feed dog food...why because I have dogs! I know too simple of thinking but growing up my dad raised everyone of our dogs on BowWow dog food and some lived to a ripe ole age. I myself have switched foods 3 times since being on this forum, not because of anything I have read but because of mainly availability issues. I now feed a brand that does great for my dogs and am very pleased with. I think we as dog owners over analyze this subject way too often, I know I was guilty of this on this forum with the purchase of my new pup last winter. Use what works for you and your dogs and be happy with your choice. Oh and a 30 year old life span for a dog? I'm thinking ok that would be ok I guess but what would their quality of life be? Just a thought!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:16 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:As for Loyall it is far from SD, Pedigree, Beneful etc so that is fine. It works, and you have a huge amount of dogs. I get that. For example though the first ingredient in adult maintenance is poultry by product meal. This means by definition by AAFCO, it consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

That is okay, but, a better ingredient would be Chicken by product meal, or turkey by product meal, or goose by product meal. A named by product meal. Again though, and I've seen this with many dogs, if it works, then it works. Let em loose, find a bird, shoot and retrieve. It is all good.

Maybe you should look up a real good Jewish Chicken soup recipe and see what they make their Healthy cure of a cold Chicken Soup with

So what food are your marketing for that all these other foods we feed are sub standard to your way of thinking lets get it out on the table :roll: :roll:

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:20 pm

volraider wrote:She also eats her own crap and any other crap she finds.

Brian

I saw this and then laughed so hard at the common sense behind this statement I think I pee'd a little! Bravo Brian!

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:23 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
NJGriffNut wrote:As for Loyall it is far from SD, Pedigree, Beneful etc so that is fine. It works, and you have a huge amount of dogs. I get that. For example though the first ingredient in adult maintenance is poultry by product meal. This means by definition by AAFCO, it consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

That is okay, but, a better ingredient would be Chicken by product meal, or turkey by product meal, or goose by product meal. A named by product meal. Again though, and I've seen this with many dogs, if it works, then it works. Let em loose, find a bird, shoot and retrieve. It is all good.

Maybe you should look up a real good Jewish Chicken soup recipe and see what they make their Healthy cure of a cold Chicken Soup with

So what food are your marketing for that all these other foods we feed are sub standard to your way of thinking lets get it out on the table :roll: :roll:

I don't work as a marketing rep for any food, I couldn't. I think companies should stick to using money to produce a better food, then spending money on advertising, marketing, or charity.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:23 pm

Onk wrote:I feed dog food...why because I have dogs! I know too simple of thinking but growing up my dad raised everyone of our dogs on BowWow dog food and some lived to a ripe ole age. I myself have switched foods 3 times since being on this forum, not because of anything I have read but because of mainly availability issues. I now feed a brand that does great for my dogs and am very pleased with. I think we as dog owners over analyze this subject way too often, I know I was guilty of this on this forum with the purchase of my new pup last winter. Use what works for you and your dogs and be happy with your choice. Oh and a 30 year old life span for a dog? I'm thinking ok that would be ok I guess but what would their quality of life be? Just a thought!

What she was trying to say is that individual cells could live that long under Utopian conditions. But put them all together in what we call a dog and some parts are going to wear out long before that. Good nutrition does help and probably explains a great deal as to why dogs are living longer than ever before. That and better housing and medications. Kind of proves we are doing things right but we also need to be aware of what useful life is and quality of life. An if we consider those the 30 year goal is probably something we don't want to achieve. And I bet neither does the dog.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:28 pm

PS you might try reading about a companies products and process also before just lumping them all together

http://www.loyallpetfood.com/loyall/wcm ... 025066.pdf

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:34 pm

I agree with that ezzy. We are definitely doing things better than years past, and we will continue to learn and hopefully we can say the same in the future about what we are doing now. There are shades in this area, there aren't best ingredients, there are better ingredients. But food manufacturers aren't making it any less difficult to find out exactly what is going on. That is a major problem and one that can end in a 1997 catastrophe. Also, I would rather feed a corn and byproduct based food, than a whole meat source food if that meat is sourced from china. Ingredient origin is as problematic as the actual ingredient simply because regulation issues.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:37 pm

kninebirddog wrote:PS you might try reading about a companies products and process also before just lumping them all together http://www.loyallpetfood.com/loyall/wcm ... 025066.pdf

They can sell it any way they want, but it is a cheaper ingredient then a named by product meal. I would chew on that pyrite before I had it made into a ring if you know what I mean.

Also, I did not lump them all together, the current governing body AAFCO lumped them all together because it defines what an ingredient is, and what parts can be used.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:09 pm

Onk, I fed Bow Wow dog food for several years back in the 70's and the dogs did fine on it. If you compared the ingredients in it to the ingredients in most dog food today, it would look like crap. All the brands of today are better than anything we had 40 or 50 years ago and yet dogs seemed to do just fine back then and could hunt all day. My dogs' coats and stools may be better now than back then but I am not even sure about that. I will say that I had to feed more of it than what I feed now days but you get my point.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:44 pm

Just not sure how it happened but so many pet dog ownershave decided dogs are people and horse pet owners have done the same. Most would have us strung up if they knew how we fed and care for both of them back in our day when they were out working all day pulling plows and herding hogs and cattle or just running the fields with us and thencoming home and both dogs and horsesate whole corn off of the coband th horse got some oatsand a little hay and they were ready to go the next day. And the dogs got a little whole milk and some table scraps to supplement their corn diet and they were ready to go the next day too. We had dogs that ate with the cattle and hogs and some that ate with the sheep. And we have progressed to 90% of our performance dogs eating by-products meals and filler corn. And yet we hear that that is undigestible. I think someone needs to lookaround and see what is really going on in our world and I am sure we all need to worry asmuchover our diet as we do the dogs that are eating horse manure for desert after their diet of week old road kill.

Ezzy

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:56 pm

I know they are wild but you have to feel sorry for the poor ole coyote. I have trail cam pictures of them eating corn (put out for photo purposes only) right off the ground. Later in the year I have cam pictures showing them eating/gorging themselfs on a gut pile. So right or wrong? Heck i don't know, but I don't figure a little corn or chicken gut made into kibble is going to harm my dog much.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:09 am

One does have to wonder, though, if the past century and a half or so of feeding dogs and horses a grain they did not encounter during the previous ten thousand or so years of their evolution hasn't had some detrimental effects on them.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:12 am

Of course it has. We have refined their guts to the point of detriment. It is seen in the allergies, disease, and overwhelming cases of canine cancer.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:11 am

NJGriffNut wrote:Of course it has. We have refined their guts to the point of detriment. It is seen in the allergies, disease, and overwhelming cases of canine cancer.

i agree with you NJGRIFFNUT and you say the same things my vet who ive been taking my dogs to has been saying for years..he helped me out with my dog who is allergic to corn, wheat, soy among other things and had he not guided me to switch feed my dog would be dead NO DOUBT!!..when i come across people at the dog park with dogs with hotspots or hair loss or speaking of chronic ear infections i give them the info i have gotten from my vet who is a nutritionist and every single dog ive encountered with those issues have done better on a new grain free, corn free diet..results speak loudly and for themselves..i dont speak on what ive read on the internet i speak from personal experience..ive tried numerous times going back to a regular feed for my dog since its more convienient to find and its cheaper in alot of cases BUT his ears get brown waxy crap in them and his paws get red within a day or two so i have switched back and it clears up..now my shorthair is on proplan all life stage and shes 6 months old and her coat is amazing, she shines like a new pair of boots and i have the feeling she could eat dirt and do well BUT she wouldnt do great like she is now on ppp..dogs can "survive" on just about anything including road kill covered in maggots but well enough to run, hunt and compete all day long? i dont think so..i can "survive" on frozen dinners but i wont be as healthy as i would be eating steak, hamburger, chicken, potatoes and veggies with some fruit on the side..i believe there are many high quality feeds out there, i dont go by price but you do have to go by the label theres nothing else you can do when choosing a feed and i sure wouldnt choose a feed with corn as one of its first ingredients, its cheap so if im gonna feed em corn as a main ingredient the food better be almost free then..jmo....by the way welcome to the forum

....ruth

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:25 am

Always an interesting discussion even if it has been hashed out many times before

. I appreciate your argument Ruth that if an animal is allergic to Corn, then feeding it Corn is going to be bad for it... but that is true of any food allergy... Dogs can be allergic to Corn, but they can also be allergic to Grains, or even Chicken or other meats. If lots of dogs are allergic to chicken do we assume that Chicken is the cause of allergies, diseases and cancer? I would tend to believe that an increase in these items is due to environmental impacts and chemicals used in food as opposed to Corn (or even genetics since many people do not bother reviewing the health of the lines in the dogs they breed)...

For me, I see what food works best for my dog, his coat, his performance, and his health and that is what I will feed, whether grain and corn free or not. I have personally seen some dogs do very poorly on high priced, great quality, grain & corn free foods, and some dogs do well on it, but what works for my dog is what I am going to feed him.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:08 am

The issue with corn is the GMO linked problems.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:15 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:Always an interesting discussion even if it has been hashed out many times before . I appreciate your argument Ruth that if an animal is allergic to Corn, then feeding it Corn is going to be bad for it... but that is true of any food allergy... Dogs can be allergic to Corn, but they can also be allergic to Grains, or even Chicken or other meats. If lots of dogs are allergic to chicken do we assume that Chicken is the cause of allergies, diseases and cancer? I would tend to believe that an increase in these items is due to environmental impacts and chemicals used in food as opposed to Corn (or even genetics since many people do not bother reviewing the health of the lines in the dogs they breed)...

For me, I see what food works best for my dog, his coat, his performance, and his health and that is what I will feed, whether grain and corn free or not. I have personally seen some dogs do very poorly on high priced, great quality, grain & corn free foods, and some dogs do well on it, but what works for my dog is what I am going to feed him.

what you do for your dog "see what works best for them" is what i think most of us do..thats why i have seperate feeds for my dogs and depending on how they look and act i would adjust the food source accordingly

...ruth

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:16 am

Hjgriffnut, In all due respect, other than working at a "high end retail store", what is your experience with dogs? Do you hunt regularly in all types of weather conditions, creating stress on your dog? Do you trial or test your dogs, keeping them on the road for several days at a time? Are you speaking from years of experience or from a theoretical interest...academics taught by a "high end retail store" targeting high end clients that are more concerned with what they feed their dogs than the dogs are? Now if your dog is allergic to corn or any other ingredient, don't feed it. But the truth is, those are in the great minority rather than the majority. Since you started the discussion,l I would really like to know what you feed your dog? As for me, not necessarilly on brand but on philosophy, I'am with k9, Charlie and Ezzy on this one..Have also heard many people happy with Sportmix (I do not feed it). Appreciate your comments and welcome to the forum.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:17 am

bossman wrote:Hjgriffnut, In all due respect, other than working at a "high end retail store", what is your experience with dogs? Do you hunt regularly in all types of weather conditions, creating stress on your dog? Do you trial or test your dogs, keeping them on the road for several days at a time? Are you speaking from years of experience or from a theoretical interest...academics taught by a "high end retail store" targeting high end clients that are more concerned with what they feed their dogs than the dogs are? Now if your dog is allergic to corn or any other ingredient, don't feed it. But the truth is, those are in the great minority rather than the majority. Since you started the discussion,l I would really like to know what you feed your dog? As for me, not necessarilly on brand but on philosophy, I'am with k9, Charlie and Ezzy on this one..Have also heard many people happy with Sportmix (I do not feed it). Appreciate your comments and welcome to the forum.

I'm speaking from owning dogs my entire life- terriers, bullbreeds, now a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon and hopefully a Large Munsterlander next year. I also do conformation, and I'm involving and training my Griff in Navhda so he will be hunt tested there, and for the National Parent Club. I have learned much from working at my store though and talking to people who are dealing with their dog's coat falling out, the dog chewing their pads until they are raw and bleeding, from extremely loose stool because the food isn't being absorbed properly. I deal with dog food qna, and dog food supplement qna, every day. I contact food companies daily about problems, and I speak directly to them. I speak directly with the president of AAFCO, and have spoken to the FDA regarding matters. I ask the tough questions, so I can feel confident in recommending the best food, for a particular dog, with unique need requirements- allergies, disease, underweight, over weight, dull coats, rotting teeth, etc.

In all due respect, I don't need to know gun dogs. In fact, I don't. This is my first. However, when it comes to canine nutrition, and specifically what goes into a bag of dog food, I know the AAFCO definitions. I know the difference in quality ingredients. I speak to vets on a weekly basis about them seeing constant problems like the ones I mentioned. And I speak directly to the manufacturers and quite honestly, give them heck for using loopholes that are frankly- endangering the lives of our pets all on behalf of my pets, and my customers. And we do not have "high end clients", we have regular working folks. I work in a pretty poor area, I am far from city life, people are on a budget, some are unemployed, and we try and help them pick the best food for their situation, budget minded included. You simply have to work in that realm with this economy.

Philosophy wise, I do not feed any grain, any protein sourced out of the us, canada, or new zealand, any fillers, by products, or any food with artificial preseratives. I also do not feed any food with unnamed meat meals, ala- fish meal. It's like, okay- but what fish, and what parts? I feed a grain free diet, higher in protein and fat than most normal dog foods. Most dog foods average about 22-24 percent protein, and about 15% fat. I like to feed, depending on the season, at least 33% protein, and at least 20% fat, but the brand I feed my non bird dog is named Orijen. It is a brand out of canada, and it uses 80%fresh, never frozen proteins sourced from local farmers, fishermen, etc. It has a protein over 40% and a relatively high fat content depending on the formula used. With that said, I only supplement kibble. I feed raw that I source myself, and grind myself. I also supplement into their diets raw green tripe.

None of this really matters though, because it works for my dog. I know from working at the store I do, that Orijen is not for everyone's dogs simply because it is so rich. That is partially from the stacked protein content in the food, but more so because Canada cooks their foods at much lower temperatures then the US, leaving more of the original nutrition, and thus not having to fortify back after the cooking process with sprays, or additives. My goal is to find something that works for my clients, whether it is a $30 dollar bag of dog food, or an $80 bag of dog food. Because if it is not working for your dog, then there is no point in feeding it.

Oh, and I have fed many foods through the years including the ones I've named with poorer ingredients, it was simply a lack of awareness on my end. In the past 3 years I have fed, or tried- Orijen- all formulas, 6 fish, Regional Red, regular Adult, Puppy, Acana Grasslands, NV Instinct Duck, Chicken Soup, BB Wilderness, Canidae GF, Canidae Pure Lands and Sky, Natural Balance, forget which, Evo Redmeats, and Go and Now, Ziwi Peak, Infinia, etc. I like to rotate foods, my dogs like the variety, but again, it doesn't always work for every dog.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:39 am

Thank you ...and there's the plug you finally named the food your are trying to push :roll:

and in my years of dealing with cattle dogs and bird dogs...I know of a few dogs that shewed on their feet..and ironically those that did had bad hips
or wait or they had mud balls and foreign objects they were trying to get out.

I know of dogs that chewed their rear ends raw was treated for allergies for years only to find out it was scarcoptic mange that was missed which yes it did appear to be food related but all the fancy foods no grain etc didn't stop the dogs issues only shots

I see some pointers get hot spots but they only get them during the heat of summer

I go to field trials and wow that way you make it sound by the food we field trialers feed I should be seeing a bunch of dogs that have mass chunks of coat missing and chewed up pads..FYI I Don't see this at all only time I see pads red is when it was hot and dog blew them running.

I go to shows and many of my show friends are now feeding Loyall because the coats are super nice and weights are maintaining great.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:55 am

kninebirddog wrote:Thank you ...and there's the plug you finally named the food your are trying to push :roll:

and in my years of dealing with cattle dogs and bird dogs...I know of a few dogs that shewed on their feet..and ironically those that did had bad hips
or wait or they had mud balls and foreign objects they were trying to get out.

I know of dogs that chewed their rear ends raw was treated for allergies for years only to find out it was scarcoptic mange that was missed which yes it did appear to be food related but all the fancy foods no grain etc didn't stop the dogs issues only shots

I see some pointers get hot spots but they only get them during the heat of summer

I go to field trials and wow that way you make it sound by the food we field trialers feed I should be seeing a bunch of dogs that have mass chunks of coat missing and chewed up pads..FYI I Don't see this at all only time I see pads red is when it was hot and dog blew them running.

I go to shows and many of my show friends are now feeding Loyall because the coats are super nice and weights are maintaining great.

You seem to have missed my point. He asked the food I fed, I named it, and also clarified that no one dog food is going to work for every dog, and I know from experience that the food I named simply won't work for most dogs because it is too rich.

And you can name all the things you want, and say they were for this and that. Thats fine and true. However, they are also chewing their feet raw because of yeast infections, and poor diet. Their coat is falling out from sarcoptic mange and because the hair follicles aren't getting the necessary amino acids and omega fatty acids to sustain itself. Any way you spin it, it doesn't matter the brand name- ingredients speak for themselves.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:06 pm

Yep all that Scarcoptic mange dog issues those premium fancy - holistic foods were not clearing up the issue..Wasn't until the dog got bred :roll: and all the pups got the same thing that it was determined she had mange not allergies and once the dog was properly treated did the issues clear up.

So I am back to saying I will agree to disagree with you, Have a nice day.

jmsgunner · Post by **jmsgunner** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:26 pm

birddogger wrote:
jmsgunner wrote:I don't have a lab. I feed Blue Buffalo products. Either the large breed chicken and rice or one of their grain free higher protien.

There are some great websites that you can check out that rate foods. I believe one is dogfoodanalysis.com. Just do a google search.
There is no credibility to any of these sites that rate dog food. dogfoodanalysis is one of them....Pay no attention to them.

Charlie

Oh pish posh.

You guys crack me up. Obviously a very controversial topic in the dog world. Just was saying what I know and providing something I found useful.

Is the information about food you or anyone else on this board spits any more credible? Just wondering...

We do what works for us and our dogs.

I have fed more and less expensive foods. Plus, I like the lack of farting BB products provide.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:45 pm

jmsgunner wrote:
birddogger wrote:
jmsgunner wrote:I don't have a lab. I feed Blue Buffalo products. Either the large breed chicken and rice or one of their grain free higher protien.

There are some great websites that you can check out that rate foods. I believe one is dogfoodanalysis.com. Just do a google search.
There is no credibility to any of these sites that rate dog food. dogfoodanalysis is one of them....Pay no attention to them.

Charlie
Oh pish posh.

You guys crack me up. Obviously a very controversial topic in the dog world. Just was saying what I know and providing something I found useful.

Is the information about food you or anyone else on this board spits any more credible? Just wondering... We do what works for us and our dogs.

I have fed more and less expensive foods. Plus, I like the lack of farting BB products provide.

Don't get too cracked up when you have people tell you something that a lot of us have learned over the years. One way you may want to check them out is read several different ones and see just how they contradict eachother. No one here has an agenda of mis-leading you or any one else. It is just what we have learned.

Ezzy

jmsgunner · Post by **jmsgunner** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:09 pm

I personally not only read what I saw on an analysis site, but made sure it matched what was on the manufacturer's site and did other research to find out what I would and would not tolerate in my dogs' food. I came to a happy agreement with my wallet, my dogs, and my peace of mind with the food I am currently feeding!

I'm not gonna knock someone for feeding something I don't agree with. Heck, I wish I could feed 100% raw, but at this point in time I can't!

I am not offended in any way shape or form, I just feel bad for the poor guy who asked the initial question!