Food type recommendations

[Onk]

Since this thread kind of crab walked on you, let me give you some advice that I have learn in the last 5 months. Research the feed plants, retail stores, farm stores....everywhere in your area and put together a list of the brand of foods that are readily accessible without wait or ordering in. Figure your dogs activity level and special needs of the breed ( large breeds have differant needs than others). Then start researching on here and the net, almost any feed you can think of has a thread on this forum. Last thing I would suggest is buy small bags to try your dog out on before purchasing a large bag, if your dog does not do good on it you won't be stuck with 50lbs of the stuff. Feed what you find works for your dog and you, don't be swayed by anything any of us on this forum try to convince you of. Form your own opion thru research and what you feel comfortable with. This is just my 2 cents. Good luck!

[birddogger]

That's pretty good advise. Don't worry about all the internet talk advising this and that. It is not complicated. I hate to repeat what has been said many, many times on here but just find a feed that you can afford, is readily available and your dog does well on, which will be most of them. The only other thing is to use the proper formula of whatever brand it is to meet your dog's activity level.

Charlie

[big steve46]

That's pretty good advise. Don't worry about all the internet talk advising this and that. It is not complicated. I hate to repeat what has been said many, many times on here but just find a feed that you can afford, is readily available and your dog does well on, which will be most of them. The only other thing is to use the proper formula of whatever brand it is to meet your dog's activity level.

Charlie

Good advice.

[claybuster_aa]

I believe what my dog food maker says, and that is it would be wise to avoid the following ingredients commonly found in dog food:
soybeans, beet pulp, sorghum, tomato pomace, alfalfa, peas, beans, oats, potatoes, garlic, and yucca.

Therefore, IMO, if you can find a feed that does not include the above ingredients you're off to a good start.

I wouldn't give any credence to the commonly found false information in regards to avoiding animal fat and by-product meals. In the opinion of many, no dog could ever be adequate without them. Anyone stating to avoid animal fat speaks only from a standpoint of marketing and sales appeal...not what is best for the animal.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

I wouldn't give any credence to the commonly found false information in regards to avoiding animal fat and by-product meals. In the opinion of many, no dog could ever be adequate without them. Anyone stating to avoid animal fat speaks only from a standpoint of marketing and sales appeal...not what is best for the animal.

I agree wholeheartedly. But you could say the same for the items listed below. All are good when formulated right or are just a marketing tool for a lot of companies. If they don't use them they say they aren't good and if they do they say they are wonderful. I tend to agree that most but not all are just added for the owners sake and not the dogs.

I believe what my dog food maker says, and that is it would be wise to avoid the following ingredients commonly found in dog food:
soybeans, beet pulp, sorghum, tomato pomace, alfalfa, peas, beans, oats, potatoes, garlic, and yucca.

Therefore, IMO, if you can find a feed that does not include the above ingredients you're off to a good start.

Charlie]

[northUpland]

NJGriffNut, Welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting and sharing. As a gun dogger(now that you have now recently become one), please understand that opinions on nutrition here are made soley on individuals perspective and expectation of performance. And those vary greatly! Trust me, as a third generation gun dogger, I don't always agree with my father or grandfather but I can not disrespect the high quality of dogs they have put out since WWII. Yes, it is a dawn of a new generation of foods and we are all living right in the middle of it. I would like to see or urge more posts that revolve around brands/formula metabilizable energy, calories per cup, digestibility, and protein biological value. Regarless of brand, that is where the rubber meets the road. -Mark

[mcbosco]

I thought I would post this for all the folks in the mountain states and PNW:

"Later this summer, Dr. Tim's will be available in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and Alaska through AFCO Distribution! We'll keep you posted on it's availability.

Proudly Distributing Quality Products to Feed, Garden and Pet Supply Retailers in the Pacific Northw
www.afcodistribution.com
AFCO Distribution is a wholesale distribution company located in Spokane Valley, WA. AFCO serves over 800 Garden, Feed and Pet Supply retailers in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and Alaska"

I know NorthUpland uses it and I have gone through about 80lbs over the past three months and it is a very good chow.

[ezzy333]

I thought I would post this for all the folks in the mountain states and PNW:

"Later this summer, Dr. Tim's will be available in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and Alaska through AFCO Distribution! We'll keep you posted on it's availability.

Proudly Distributing Quality Products to Feed, Garden and Pet Supply Retailers in the Pacific Northw
http://www.afcodistribution.com
AFCO Distribution is a wholesale distribution company located in Spokane Valley, WA. AFCO serves over 800 Garden, Feed and Pet Supply retailers in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming and Alaska"

I know NorthUpland uses it and I have gone through about 80lbs over the past three months and it is a very good chow.

If you like it that well you should give some to your dog. He was going to send me a bag but he didn't follow through on it. Probably just as well. You can't tell much by feeding just a bag or two unless it is really bad.

Ezzy

[aporrey]

HI all. new to this site, and somewhat new to the dog nutrition world. Although i have talked with many people about this subject in the past. everyone has different views on it. My personal veiw on it is that all dogs were derived wolves. I personaly have not seen a wolve ripping cobs of corn out of a corn field. I also have never seen them eating wheat or soy from a field around me. in my own personal situation i switched my lab from pedigree dog food in which corn is the first ingredient, to a hollistic brand. i quickly noticed a change in a few things. the hair around his eyes grew back. ear infections came fewer(labs are known for ear infections). i also noticed his stool being a lot smaller(this telling me he's USING more of his food). this being said i will never feed my dog a food with those ingrediants. i have found that if you can by it at the grocery store it has those ingrediants. i am open to ALL sugjestions please reply with any CUNSTUCTIVE criticism.

[RayGubernat]

Every time this discussion comes up I am reminded of something that occurred at my feed dealer several years ago.

I was waiting for the owner to finish up with two Amish customers. I overheard their coversation.

The one Amish fellow "I see you are buying that dogfood. "(the dogfood being mentioned was incredibly cheap, something like $16 for a 50# bag)

THe other fellow said: "YUP".

The first fellow then said: " I bought a bag of that and my dog would not eat it."

The second fellow replied: " Long about the third day, my dog liked it just fine."

BARRRUMP BUMP.


Another story, told to me by none other than Bill Holmes of Gunsmoke kennels himself:

When my dad(Herb Holmes) could no longer trial due to arthritis, he took it upon himself to custom design special feed regimens for each dog that was going to a trial. He meticulously prepared and packaged individual portions of chicken levers, hearts and other chicken parts, together with supplements. for each dog and packed it all in coolers with ice and had them loaded onto the trailer. We went down the road.

We would stop at the very first dumpster we came to that was out of sight of the main house and deposit all those indivually prepared portions, rinse out the coolers and contiunue on down the road. Everyone was sworn to secrecy. To the day he died, my dad never knew.

FWIW, one of Bill Holmes' dogs won the national Open Shooting Dog championship and ate nothing but Kasco(now Royal Canin) kibble.

Boatloads of champion dogs have eaten nothing but Purina Pro Plan all of their lives. Many have eaten noting but Iams products.

I have all the sympathy in the world for individual owners and dogs with food allergies, but I have to question whether or not the dogs should even be in the gene pool?

I have come to the conclusion over the years that the higher quality feeds from the major manufacturer's are quite similar in many ways and much of the difference is purely marketing. Each of them has all the things a dog needs to not only live, but thrive.

In over fifty years of messing with dogs and feeding a whole host of different brands and formulas(probably about 20 or more over all) there were only two brands/formulas that my dogs did not do well on.

RayG

[dog dr]

Every time this discussion comes up I am reminded of something that occurred at my feed dealer several years ago.

I was waiting for the owner to finish up with two Amish customers. I overheard their coversation.

The one Amish fellow "I see you are buying that dogfood. "(the dogfood being mentioned was incredibly cheap, something like $16 for a 50# bag)

THe other fellow said: "YUP".

The first fellow then said: " I bought a bag of that and my dog would not eat it."

The second fellow replied: " Long about the third day, my dog liked it just fine."

BARRRUMP BUMP.


Another story, told to me by none other than Bill Holmes of Gunsmoke kennels himself:

When my dad(Herb Holmes) could no longer trial due to arthritis, he took it upon himself to custom design special feed regimens for each dog that was going to a trial. He meticulously prepared and packaged individual portions of chicken levers, hearts and other chicken parts, together with supplements. for each dog and packed it all in coolers with ice and had them loaded onto the trailer. We went down the road.

We would stop at the very first dumpster we came to that was out of sight of the main house and deposit all those indivually prepared portions, rinse out the coolers and contiunue on down the road. Everyone was sworn to secrecy. To the day he died, my dad never knew.

FWIW, one of Bill Holmes' dogs won the national Open Shooting Dog championship and ate nothing but Kasco(now Royal Canin) kibble.

Boatloads of champion dogs have eaten nothing but Purina Pro Plan all of their lives. Many have eaten noting but Iams products.

I have all the sympathy in the world for dogs with food allergies, but I have to question shouod they really be in the gene pool?

I have come to the conclusion over the years that the higher quality feeds from the major manufacturer's are quite similar in many ways and much of the difference is purely marketing. Each of them has all the things a dog needs to not only live, but thrive.

In over fifty years of messing with dogs and feeding a whole host of different brands and formulas(probably about 20 or more over all) there were only two brands/formulas that my dogs did not do well on.

RayG

excellent post, Mr. G. Always glad to see your posts, as they are always loaded with good common sense.

[dr tim]

If all dogs ate Pro Plan and competed I would expect the champion to be on Pro Plan.

Good common sense.

[ezzy333]

RayG your post is exactly what I have seen and done over the past 60 some years. I have never had a dog with a allergy problem, sensitive stomach problem and I have never found a dog food that didn't provide the necessary nutrients and only a couple that didn't seem to be as good as I would expect.

I think we see today too many people reading to much marketing material and trying to determine the best feed from that instead of paying attention to what your dog tells you. 95% of the trial dogs on one feed tells you a lot when you look at the dogs condition and stamina. A majority of the good feeds include grain and grain products, that should tell you something, especially when you look at the condition of the dogs eating it.

There are some that do not use grain or very little that are pretty good feeds also but the cost is pretty much out of line since you have to use more of the expensive products to get enough of all of the amino acids that you can get easier and cheaper using some vegetable matter.

It ends up with a good food being one that is readily available, affordable, and the dog likes and does well on.

Ezzy

[NJGriffNut]

Animal Fat, as a single ingredient is a waste by product and contains rendered fats from various sources of many animals, including other dogs and cats.

Chicken fat, for example, is a much better ingredient. As is beef fat, etc.

Same thing for animal meal.

I am saying it as a singular, stand alone ingredient not a group. Animal meal, or meat meal can legally contain 4d animals, as well as other dogs and cats.

It is printed in the AAFCO ingredient definitions.

I would not feed my dog, euthanized dogs and cats, downed animals, diseased animals, dead animals, etc. It is NOT in the best interest of my dog. There is nothing you can say to prove this is a quality ingredient, when it contains pentobarbital, the chemical used to euthanize those animals, a known carcinogen.

[ezzy333]

We understand someone found a trace amount ONCE. Don't think I would build my whole feeding program around something that minor. Show us the horrible results of feeding animal fat, fish meal, meat meal, or the other ingredients you are trying to say are killing our dogs. Then I think you will have a real audience but not till then.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

I would not feed my dog, euthanized dogs and cats, downed animals, diseased animals, dead animals, etc. It is NOT in the best interest of my dog. There is nothing you can say to prove this is a quality ingredient, when it contains pentobarbital, the chemical used to euthanize those animals, a known carcinogen.

First off...dead is dead. Rendered is rendered. I remember an old movie with Charlton Heston and Edward G Robinson called "Soylent Green."

Second- pentobarbital present in the animal digest...Possible but highly unlikely due to the fact that the digest is processed using heat among other things, sufficient to break down the very fibers of the meat. Those kinds of treatments would almost certainly degrade the pentobarbital significantly, if not completely. I would bet real money and give odds that no trace larger than say, a part per billion of pentobarbital could be detected in the finished kibble.

Third...pentobarbital a carcinogen??...I don't think so. A drug that was first synthesized in 1928 and which has been in more or less continuous use in humans and animals since then until the present day a carcinogen? The Sodium Nitrite they use to cure bacon is far more mutagenic than pentobarbital. New York city air and Los Angeles city air are far more deadly AND more carcinogenic than most of the food additives and products that the FDA nd the EPA have labelled as carcinogenic. Neither would pass an Ames test which is probably why it was never done.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the hyperbole...?

RayG

[brad27]

Animal Fat, as a single ingredient is a waste by product and contains rendered fats from various sources of many animals, including other dogs and cats.

Chicken fat, for example, is a much better ingredient. As is beef fat, etc.

Same thing for animal meal.

I am saying it as a singular, stand alone ingredient not a group. Animal meal, or meat meal can legally contain 4d animals, as well as other dogs and cats.

It is printed in the AAFCO ingredient definitions.

I would not feed my dog, euthanized dogs and cats, downed animals, diseased animals, dead animals, etc. It is NOT in the best interest of my dog. There is nothing you can say to prove this is a quality ingredient, when it contains pentobarbital, the chemical used to euthanize those animals, a known carcinogen.

do you even know what you're talking about?

[dog dr]

do you even know what you're talking about?

Hang on tight folks, here we go!!!

[big steve46]

Someone has been reading that weird thread again that takes things out of context and stretches the truth so they can sell mediocre, expensive feed.

[NJGriffNut]

actually, the FDA recently had tests confirming pentobarbital survivng the heat process via extrusion. And it was not once. If you people would wake the "bleep" up, and stop sipping the Kool Aid, you and your dogs would be better off.

[NJGriffNut]

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffi ... 129135.htm

[kninebirddog]

http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffi ... 129135.htm

Those are older reports but yes It was a big topic many years ago
Dog Food Survey Results - Survey #1, Qualitative Analyses for Pentobarbital Residue
Dry dog food samples purchased in Laurel, MD, area, March - June 1998

KEY
Survey #2, quantitative analyses for pentobarbital residue
Dry dog food samples purchased in Laurel, MD, area, December 2000


Ole Roy products had the most that showed up positive even the Nutro showed up positive back then Wonder what they would show today

[bossman]

K9..You beat me to the punch (as usual). A study done 13 years ago, mentioning food most of us have never heard of, let alone use...I'm spechless

[mcbosco]

Some of this is the fault of the food companies. Why can't Purina change "animal fat" to "a mix of beef, pork & poultry fat", or SportMix instead of "meat meal" a "blend of beef, pork & chicken meal".

Seems so logical.

[ezzy333]

Some of this is the fault of the food companies. Why can't Purina change "animal fat" to "a mix of beef, pork & poultry fat", or SportMix instead of "meat meal" a "blend of beef, pork & chicken meal".

Seems so logical.

Because those are not legal descriptions I believe you will find.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

You are incorrect. There is nothing stopping a company from describing any factual aspects of the ingredients. If Purina said on the label "animal fat" is mixture of high quality beef, pork & chicken fat it would be breaking no laws.

The use of the common terms is for ingredient flexibility just like using "ocean fish meal" or "fish meal" rather than "menhaden fish meal", which most actually are, or "herring meal" Using the two former allow them to change ingredients based on price and availability without letting the customer know or violating labeling requirements.

More than likely the reason those two foods use generic terms for certain ingredients is because the ingredients are not consistent.

Not that it matters, but it wouldn't hurt if these companies actually described these components even if they varied over time.

I don't think Purina would ever use dead dogs and cats in the foods but what's the harm in saying it?

Ezzy, click the link and then click the link Loyall uses under "poultry by-product meal". Is Loyall breaking the law? They chose to dispel the common myth.

http://www.loyallpetfood.com/loyall/en/ ... /index.jsp

[mcbosco]

You are wrong too. I will give you another example. "Chicken Meal" can legally be described as "low ash chicken meal" if it is.

Where it appears on the bag is not the issue.

[ezzy333]

Had to delete a post from NJ Griff that used language no lady should use. Sorry, but seems to be a hard time expressing one self and also quite derogatory to other members.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh. Shoot! (Thanks Ezzy. )

[RayGubernat]

I wonder why a study that was conducted over a decade ago that found traces of pentobarbital...was not repeated more recently. Could it be that, after all the hype died down, it was determined that presence of pentobarbital was not a particularly big deal in the grand scheme of things? I don't know, but I suspect that might be the case.

I also wonder what type of technology was used to make the determinations.

Trace analysis can be a very tricky thing.

For nearly two decades, everyone was being told that DDT was a persistent pesticide and was everywhere in the environment. They even found traces of DDT in the waters of Antartica. There was a hue and cry to ban DDT everywhere which succeeded to a large degree.

When the technology improved, it was discovered that much of what had been reported as DDT, wa in fact NOT DDT at all, but rather PCB's which power transmission companies used in massive quantities as liquid dielectrics in transformers. The power company people dumped the old PCB's on the ground with disturbing regularity when changing the dielctric in transformers in the field. Now, PCB's are able to stand up to the electric arc discharge(white hot) that happens when you close a circuit, which is why they were used in power transformers. Small wonder they did not degrade in the environment.

When the Apollo mission brough back moon rocks, the very best and most prestigious analytical laboratories in the world were invided to analyze specimens. The very latest technologies were used by leading scientists. The variation between the several laboratories for some trace components were HUGE. 100- 200% difference between laboratories was not uncommon.

Admittedly the analytical methods used in the seventies are nowhere near as sensitive and discriminating as what exists today, but different methods can be expected to give different results on the very same samples, especially when we are dealing with things in the parts per billion range...because parts per billion is an incredibly small amount.

My point is that trace analysis is nowhere near the exact science that some would have you believe especially something that was done a decade ago.

I am far more concerned with things like pesicide residues in thngs like baby food, and yes the FDA has published limits on that also...because ...YES...it is in there. Now THAT bothers me because pesticide residues are cumulative and many pesticides like organophosporus and organochlorine based products interfere with the operation of nerve cells. The damage they can do to a developing infant's brain and nervous system could be significant .

I love my dogs as much as anyone, perhaps more than some. However, they are on this earth for ten to fifteen years at best. The average human lifespan is more than five times longer.

RayG



RayG

[ezzy333]

And theyalso have found that many of those trace elements are completely natural and not man made. But like I said before you find what you are looking for, even manytimes when it isn't there.

Ezzy

[brad27]

do you even know what you're talking about?

Hang on tight folks, here we go!!!

It had to be said.

[bossman]

You may find this article from the L.A. Times of some interest.

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-pet ... 9636.story

[Ava]

I feed mine Majestic/Nature's Advantage.. they're frozen patties consisting of ground organ meats and bone. Since I have switched to a raw diet from a "premium" dry food, I have noticed the following: better breath and teeth, more stamina, loss of tear stains, no more itchy licking feet, less shedding, better body condition, and my favorite; a lot less poop! previously, I had to keep switching my picky eater's food or she would get anorexic. now, she's a picture of health.

http://www.animalfood.com/

[northUpland]

[quote="dr tim"]If all dogs ate Pro Plan and competed I would expect the champion to be on Pro Plan.

Good common sense.[/quote]

Dr. Tim, Thanks for keeping it real! -Mark