Finding a new Dog Food

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:50 pm

I'm picking up my 85lb Chessie in a week and need to get his feed figured out.

I got him from a trainer/breeder who used Purina Pro Plan Performance, the trainer he is with switched him to Eukanuba. I have been researching and I'm thinking of switching him to Blue Buffalo or Taste of the Wild because they appear to be better dog foods according to this website.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/

I'm looking for efficiency as I had been feeding him 5 cups of the PPPP and I'm told that the "better" foods allow you to feed less and get the same nutritian. Even if a feed is a little more per bag, you are feeding less and the ingredients are better for the dog.

Also wondering if 3 different feeds in 5 weeks is going to be a huge issue with his GI tract? I already know that I can expect his house training to be a little rough, so I'm worried about too much of a mess if we do have an issue. I know enough to do the transition slow, so I'm hoping the issues will be minimal.

Your learned thoughts and opinions are welcome.

Thanks in advance.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:54 pm

PPP is tough to beat. People worry to much about dog food. If he looks good keep feeding it, if he doesn't switch to something else.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:58 pm

Sounds like he has been on two really good foods recently. Don't think you will find anything much better. I would look and see what is readily available and something you can afford. If you do that and the dog likes it you have found the right food. Some of the higher priced feeds may be a little more potent but don't bet on it and you will be paying more. I think there are much better and more important ways to judge a food besides what they need the less of. How do you think you would feel if we just ate the things you need the less of to survive. Feeling hungry all of the time is not a great thing for your dog either.

Ezzy

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:03 pm

Sometimes I feel like I'm overanalyzing, but in this case I get concerned when I feed 5 cups and I'm picking up 4 cups - says to me that he's really only getting the benefit of one cups worth of nutrition. Also, he does look fine on PPP, but 5 cups to keep him at weight seems like a lot.

Also, I've been continuing to feed once a day in the evening - I get th e concept for hunting season, but the rest of the year, can I feed twice a day and shift during hunting season?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:21 pm

You can if you want. It won't make much difference to the dog once he is used to it. Probably if you want to feed a lot less feed you should get a beagle or something real small. When you buy the largest of the sporting dogs you may want to pln on feeding more than most dogs require. Dogs that are big and are geared for cold weather and staying warm in cold water are not going to be dainty eaters. And if you want to cut down on those large stools cut his water intake. The dog may not do well but the stools would be a lot smaller since they have a rather large water content. There are better ways to judge a food than by the dogs stool. I would bet you could cut him back of feed during the summer months at least and he wouldn't lose weight. But you have to watch the dog to know just how much you need to feed.

Ezzy

ben33127 · Post by **ben33127** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:30 pm

A guy told me last night that Diamond and Taste of the wild are the same company. Not sure though.... We feed diamond natural, it seems to do well!

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Yup - I get the big dog big meal idea and I'm not concerned with the cost. My only concern is that he may get more "use" out of a feed that has better ingredients.

My Chocolate Lab made it to one month shy of his 14th birthday and was in pretty decent shape up to the end. He was on Nutro. I don't think that was any miracle high end feed - I suppose on the same order of PPP.

I'm reading your gist to be - PPP is a fine food and I should switch it if I think he is having a problem, but don't worry about it if he isn't. More expenseive, high protien and nutrient density feeds are fine but they aren't going to do anything more than what PPP will do.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:00 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Yup - I get the big dog big meal idea and I'm not concerned with the cost. My only concern is that he may get more "use" out of a feed that has better ingredients.

My Chocolate Lab made it to one month shy of his 14th birthday and was in pretty decent shape up to the end. He was on Nutro. I don't think that was any miracle high end feed - I suppose on the same order of PPP.

I'm reading your gist to be - PPP is a fine food and I should switch it if I think he is having a problem, but don't worry about it if he isn't. More expenseive, high protien and nutrient density feeds are fine but they aren't going to do anything more than what PPP will do.

I think that is about right. I know a lot of dogs that are old and healty and their diets are all over the board from OL Roy to some of the elete brands but almost 100% of the working and sporting dogs are eating a feed similar to PPP or many of the other good common feeds that include the dreaded grain as well as all of the other terrible ingredients you hear about if you read so many of the topics on this board as well as those fake information sites that you were looking at on the net. I often wnat to tell people who complain about their dogs eating too much feed that it would solve their problem better and quicker if they changed dogs instead of changing feeds. But then, I remember we are here to try and educate newcomers so I do my best to do just that. Hope it helps and stay with us so we can see how it all works out.

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:01 pm

Again, most dogs do well on most good feeds. That said, I would prefer Nutrosource or Loyall over PPP. "dog food analysis" has some good ideas, but some of their conclusions are suspect.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:09 pm

A lot depends on where you live, Pro Plan is just not a good value in NJ at close to $50 a bag for 38lbs. The similar Loyall formula is less than $40 for 50lbs.

In Minnesota, you have access to Annamaet, Red Paw and Dr. Tim's for the same money as Pro Plan.

I have had friends go from 6 cups of Pro Plan to 3 cups of a better food like Annamaet which is a real value.

In the end of course the dog will decide which is best, but the odds are you will really like either of those three foods. The reviews on here for Loyall are much more consistent than Pro Plan, so that seems like a real value.

The food from Costco is also well liked at $28 for 40lbs.

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:28 pm

I went thru several foods before trying Loyall. It works well for me and my budget as did Diamond. My pup lets just say had an extreme gas issue on Diamond no matter the amount I fed him. He did well on it or should I say he did smell on it!

Hope you find what works for you and your budget. Don't break the bank for dog food, they are dogs after all, they eat unmentionable things while venturing outside and lick their own butt. Food should be the least of their worries!

gsp3333 · Post by **gsp3333** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Was feeding Blue Buffalo to my two Labs and they did great. Added a GSP to the mix and it just got too expensive for all three. Switched to Diamond's Premium Edge, very similiar to Blue Buffalo and dogs doing great, saving a bunch of money too.

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Since you are in Minnesota you may consider Nutri Source. My dogs have been doing very well on it. It is a quality dog food that is locally made. Nothing wrong with PPP or Eukanuba but Nutri Source is an alternative that should be easy to get for you.
http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutri ... erformance

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:22 pm

Feed him what you think he will do best on. Several good recommendations. One observation...I'm impressed with the trainer. He (or she) is certainly not feeding him a "cheap" dog food. He obviously cares for his animals, imo.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:17 pm

All good advise here. I would just like to add that I wouldn't base my decision on the dog food link you posted or any other internet comparison or analysis of dog food.

Charlie

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:51 am

Thanks all for the input. It is appreciated. It sounds like maybe we have a Chevy Ford Toyota discussion. Each person has their favorite and none are really wrong. What I'm picking up on is to find a brand that is readily available, has decent ingredients, is affordable and that the dog likes.

The problem is:
A) I have access to basically any of the dog foods mentioned - I think - between Petco, Petsmart, Chuck and Don's, Tractor Supply, Costco and my local Feed store Fluegel's, I think they are availale
B) the sources I have been relying on for comparison and to help make a decision appear to have critics - so where does a person go to get info on what is best.
C) Cost is relative since the volume you feed will affect the cost. Its not really a factor other than wanting to stay below $50 a bag (sometimes that only buys you 30lbs). The issue of waste is only a concern because I associate it with not getting the most out of food. Sort of like buying E-85 fuel - sure its cheaper, but not enough to justify it delivering 30% less power and efficiency. Maybe I'm wrong about the amount left on the lawn and I'm reading too much into the articles that talk about fillers - grains etc.
D) Given the dogs appetite and the need to mix water into the food to slow him down at meal time, I'm assuming he'll eat just about anything. I do understand that they'll eat anything - even socks and gloves which have no nutrition at all. Since I'm not willing to test his food - and not sure my taste is the same as his anyway - I'll never, personally know if they are deiicious.

So the conclusion I have come to is that basically its a crap shoot (pun sort of intended), you just have to choose a feed that you are convinced is fine and quit thinking about it.

Having said that, I'll take a look at what has been suggested. I am trying to avoid the dreaded "green fog" that clears a room. I'm sure all who we encounter and stay will have a similar appreciation for getting it right

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:18 am

Yukon...

I don't know that it's exactly a crap shoot. It is a pretty wide open game, though.

As to the gas...my training partner's and my dogs both had gas with a given premium chicken and rice food. His wife made him change food. He gave me the bag and a half that he had. My dogs had gas on it too. With an idea to just dilute the gas, I mixed it 50-50% with the lamb and rice verson of the same brand. Gas gone, dogs doing great, me left wondering what the heck.

Check his weight. If he's gaining weight, you might cut him back. Often too much food will cause gas.

FWIW, Greg J>

fordman · Post by **fordman** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:40 am

I would go with the Ford.

Plus I just got 10 bags of Loyall Performance for my crew.

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:55 am

I have a co-worker with 2 Swiss Mountain Dogs that have suffered with allergies and stomach issues since they were pups. They seemed to do great on Deli Turkey from the grocery store

She swithed to Taste of the Wild and the dogs love it - seems they had an allery to Chicken that seemed to be in many feeds they tried. She also introduced a ProBiotic to the feeding and I guess has solved most of the allergy problems.

I, luckily, don't seem to have any allergy issues to deal with.

Thanks all for the comments. Any more thoughts are welcome.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:03 am

An important source of advice are those who have fed working dogs many, many years.

Also, what some thinks are allergies, may be nothing but overfeeding. It can also be "sensitivities" primarily to chemicals in the feed which is not a true allergy. Probiotics are good in many situations especially if the animal has been given lots of steroids and/or antibiotics.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:05 am

If it was an allergy, probiotics wouldn't help. Probiotics aid in maintaining helpful microorganisms in the GI tract. We all know about eating yogurt when/after taking antibiotics, right?

JessiNGunther · Post by **JessiNGunther** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:27 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Yukon...

I don't know that it's exactly a crap shoot. It is a pretty wide open game, though.

As to the gas...my training partner's and my dogs both had gas with a given premium chicken and rice food. His wife made him change food. He gave me the bag and a half that he had. My dogs had gas on it too. With an idea to just dilute the gas, I mixed it 50-50% with the lamb and rice verson of the same brand. Gas gone, dogs doing great, me left wondering what the heck.

Check his weight. If he's gaining weight, you might cut him back. Often too much food will cause gas.

FWIW, Greg J>

OH MY LORD does Gunther have gas ! (Insert the puking smilie here) So now I will cut his chicken and rice food with the lamb and rice verson of the same brand ! TAHNKS A MILLION Greg !!!!

And yes always go with the ford

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:29 am

I don't know that it'll help. My dogs have previously been on a different brand's chicken and rice w/o gas.

I don't want to say the name of the gassy food, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. It's famous for it.

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:31 am

I agree, Big Steve, that is why I thought I'd throw out this topic. I know most of you are sick of talking about it, but I appreciate the advice. I was curious about that website I found and thought I'd ask "the experts" for the reasons you state.

My Father recently passed away and one of his favorite expressions was "Two heads are better than one, even if one of them is a Pumpkin Head".

Thanks again,
Yukon "pumpkin head" Jasper

JessiNGunther · Post by **JessiNGunther** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:37 am

Greg Jennings wrote:I don't know that it'll help. My dogs have previously been on a different brand's chicken and rice w/o gas.

I don't want to say the name of the gassy food, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. It's famous for it.

Crap I dont know the name PM me We are floating in a green fog over here and whats really bad is when people come for dinner and Gunther blast one off

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:24 am

I'd like to know also - if you can shoot me a PM I'll add it to the list of probably don't try.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:28 am

Greg Jennings wrote:If it was an allergy, probiotics wouldn't help. Probiotics aid in maintaining helpful microorganisms in the GI tract. We all know about eating yogurt when/after taking antibiotics, right?

----------
I'm just saying that what most think are allergies are not true allergies for different reasons.

Probiotics support the immune system, so it would have a variety of benefits.

I realize there are differences in humans and dogs, but I do feel there are commonalities that need to be explored better.

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:44 am

I guess its a Labyrinth. I just read the thread about HOT FEED - yikes. Lots of great info available - just not anything definitive.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:01 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Sometimes I feel like I'm overanalyzing, but in this case I get concerned when I feed 5 cups and I'm picking up 4 cups - says to me that he's really only getting the benefit of one cups worth of nutrition. Also, he does look fine on PPP, but 5 cups to keep him at weight seems like a lot.

Also, I've been continuing to feed once a day in the evening - I get th e concept for hunting season, but the rest of the year, can I feed twice a day and shift during hunting season?

My 40 pound setter gets 2 cups of PPP to stay muscled and lean - no ribs showing.

Dog advertisements ordering dog food on the net should not be entirely believed . Those sites are often a paid advertising site. I can see where an 85 pound dog could need 5 cups - especially if he's a working dog.

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:56 pm

I upped him from 4 to 5 because I wanted a little more weight on him. Maybe the answer was to switch to a food with a higher fat and carb content so I wouldn't have to feed him more. He had diarrea for quite some time when I upped him. Makes sense now that his body wasn't capable of handling that much volume even though he needed the calories.

That was my initial issue and was the reason for the original question.

Are there any brands out there that allow you to move up and down with the protien/fat percentages without having to phase it in?

My dogs health compells me to ask the question. I want to optimize, within reason, for his sake.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:13 pm

yukonjasper wrote:I upped him from 4 to 5 because I wanted a little more weight on him. Maybe the answer was to switch to a food with a higher fat and carb content so I wouldn't have to feed him more. He had diarrea for quite some time when I upped him. Makes sense now that his body wasn't capable of handling that much volume even though he needed the calories.

That was my initial issue and was the reason for the original question.

Are there any brands out there that allow you to move up and down with the protien/fat percentages without having to phase it in?

My dogs health compells me to ask the question. I want to optimize, within reason, for his sake.

iI still see the same thing in your post. The dog was doing fine but you decided to put more weight on him so you made a abruptly made a 20% increase in his feed and when you did you saw that he wasn't handling it well. My question is why did you think he needed more weight? And when you saw he was having trouble with it why didn't you pull back to the original amount? If you really think he NEEDS more weight why not make a very small adjustment in his feed and then see how he handled it? I see little reason to change feeds if the dog is doing well. If he needs a little more weight then increase his feed a little and if he needs to lose weight then decrease it a little. Also make sure you factor in the exercise he is getting which makes a big difference also.

Brands are just a name of the company making the feed and they have no magical powers so in reality all feeds act alike when feeding them. It isn't the brand of the feed that matters but rather how your dog responds to the feed does. And since they are all pretty much alike the response will be about the same to each. I know you are wanting to feed the best you can for your dog but the way to do that is use a good feed, which you are, and then just watch the condition of the dog. There is no magic potion that is going to make a big difference in health or longevity so relax and enjoy the dog and worry about something a lot more important than which feed to feed.

Ezzy

sdpowskier · Post by **sdpowskier** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:15 pm

Yukon, I've been dealing with the same things you have been. Basically did the same searches ect. Ended up using the Costco feed as it seems like there wasn't much if anything bad said about it. Could have sworn the Science Diet I was feeding him before was rat poison after reading some of those sites

. It was probably just fine, but Costco was half the price and 5lbs more food and better comments across the board. I don't know much, but my dog is a 15mo black lab/gsp mix and I get comments all the time on what a good looking dog he is. His coat is shiny, seems healthy, and has fairly consistent stools, that is until he eats something nasty and gets the runs. Gas has been bad at times, but I think I have it narrowed down to some Costco treats we were giving him, without those it is minimal. The only thing is that he is a 68 lbs dog and to keep him at a good weight he gets 5.5 cups/day. Which seems like a lot, but I don't know? I'm going to the vet for his annual checkup today, will have to see what he says. Good luck on the search.

yukonjasper · Post by **yukonjasper** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:51 pm

Ezzy,
The increase was suggested by the VET who thought he looked a little lean - and he was - his ribs were pretty prominent and his metabolism is pretty high - add to that I'm fairly positive the level of exercise he was getting with me was greater than the person I got him from. He was the trainers dog and she admitted that he would get worked when all the others were done. I am working him Morning before work - walk/run and at night with walk/run and bumpers. I also have a retired friend of mine on the block who takes him out midday and walks/runs him. He is well conditioned as I live on a lake and I try to make a lot of his exercise swimming - which he loves.

You are right, he got a 25% increase in food - I didn't put 2 and 2 together until reading here what happened there, but he worked through it on his own and adjusted to the increase. He will be Neutered soon, so I'm going to watch for the metabolism drop and try to keep him from gaining too much. He is almost 2 yrs old, so he should be working through the puppy years also, so that will be another thing to watch out for.

If this discussion has taught me anything, its taught me that there are alot of levels that you can get involved in this discussion. I'm not qualified to get into it at the level of some of you - its your business to know this stuff after all. I'll have to pick a brand and leave it be, I'll likely switch him off the Eukanuba and put him back on the PPP as it seems to fit the criteria of good, relatively inexpensive, available and I know he likes it and can tolerate it. Plus I still have 20 lbs left

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:54 pm

Don't expect his "metabolism" to drop if you neuter him. Metabolism is really lean muscle mass x activity. If you don't cut activity and he doesn't lose muscle mass, he's going to require just as much food.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:03 pm

It seems that some think the answer to everything is neutering,too bad it's not that easy or a fact!!

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:38 pm

windswept wrote:Since you are in Minnesota you may consider Nutri Source. My dogs have been doing very well on it. It is a quality dog food that is locally made. Nothing wrong with PPP or Eukanuba but Nutri Source is an alternative that should be easy to get for you.
http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutri ... erformance

That is a very good suggestion. What does that food cost?

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:11 pm

We were in a similar position with our GSP on Exceed. We had him up to 4 cups/day & couldn't keep weight on him, plus he had a significant amount of "output". So we did some research into feeds with more protein & less carbs, eventually deciding on EVO Turkey/Chicken.

Not only does he need LESS of this food, but he put on muscle (not just weight). His coat & energy level also improved.

Do the research & decide for yourself. Just remember that a good food that costs more at the cash register generally costs less to feed because you're using less of it.

JMHO,

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:59 pm

yukonjasper wrote:Yup - I get the big dog big meal idea and I'm not concerned with the cost. My only concern is that he may get more "use" out of a feed that has better ingredients.

My Chocolate Lab made it to one month shy of his 14th birthday and was in pretty decent shape up to the end. He was on Nutro. I don't think that was any miracle high end feed - I suppose on the same order of PPP.

I'm reading your gist to be - PPP is a fine food and I should switch it if I think he is having a problem, but don't worry about it if he isn't. More expenseive, high protien and nutrient density feeds are fine but they aren't going to do anything more than what PPP will do.

Exactly. My 13 year old has been on Purina's PP all his life. Healthy dog still hunting hard. He's never told me that he's tired of it .

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:19 pm

mcbosco wrote:
windswept wrote:Since you are in Minnesota you may consider Nutri Source. My dogs have been doing very well on it. It is a quality dog food that is locally made. Nothing wrong with PPP or Eukanuba but Nutri Source is an alternative that should be easy to get for you.
http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutri ... erformance
That is a very good suggestion. What does that food cost?

Retail is about $48 for a 40# bag. The manufacturer also offers some sort of buy 8 or 10 and get one free. I would specifically ask for that promotion as most of the retail outlets don't promote it like they should.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:28 pm

windswept wrote:
mcbosco wrote:
windswept wrote:Since you are in Minnesota you may consider Nutri Source. My dogs have been doing very well on it. It is a quality dog food that is locally made. Nothing wrong with PPP or Eukanuba but Nutri Source is an alternative that should be easy to get for you.
http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutri ... erformance
That is a very good suggestion. What does that food cost?
Retail is about $48 for a 40# bag. The manufacturer also offers some sort of buy 8 or 10 and get one free. I would specifically ask for that promotion as most of the retail outlets don't promote it like they should.

A bit cheaper than PPP and in line with others, seems fair.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:32 pm

Loyall is less expensive and as good if not better than PPP. One should not have to pay a dollar a pound for a very good feed, at least in most parts of the country.

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:04 pm

Yukon if you stick with PPP you can get a $5.00 off coupon from the Pro Plan FaceBook page. We are able to print one every month, we're feeding 3 GSP's. BTW we fed it to our lab most of her life, she was not as big as your chessie.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:44 pm

Yukon -

I have fed my pointers various feeds over the years. I have generally fed a 30% protein/20% fat kibble(or something pretty close to that). I have changed for reasons of availabilty, unthriftiness(animals doing poorly), changes in formula leading to unthriftiness or runny stools, etc and lastly, for significant increases in price.

The dogs do very well on 30/20 feeds and do not produce runny stools. The stools are well formed and that is an indication that they are getting good nutrition from the feed.

There are lots of variations in how the feed company gets to 30/20. One company uses fish meal as a major source of protein and that is fine except for one thing. Fish meal is an incredibly dense source of protein so they do not need to add too much of it to the feed. To make up the difference they put in fillers.

To be honest...they ALL put in fillers to one degree or another to make up the bulk weight, but if the main protein source is fish, they wind up having to add more of the fillers to make up the weight than if the main protein source was meat or chicken.

Many of those dogfood comparison sites have an agenda, so their "analysis" is biased to serve that agenda.

Many dogfood manufacturers put in a smidge of this and a dollop of that so they can claim health benefits like "CONTAINS CHONDROITIN FOR JOINT HEALTH" when the amount of the ingredient in the feed is far, far below any therapeutic level. Remember , selling dog food IS marketing, much of which is half truths if not complete BS.

I can buy chicken feed starter that is 24% protein for about $20 for 50#... ALL DAY LONG at Tractor Supply. I could probably beat the heck out of that price if I shopped around. Why should dogfood be almost twice that? Answer...Marketing.

I can buy a 12% Protein, 3% fat ground, pelletized all stock type feed for about $11 for 50#. That is what I feed my horses. Protein is protein, fat is fat. I could buy Purina Strategy for $16 for 50# or Omolene or any of a dozen or more branded horse feeds for anywhere from $14 - 20 per 50# bag, but the horses would get just about the same level of nutrition out of any of them and not all that much different from the 12% pelletized feed that is 11 bucks a bag. Been there, did that.

The feed companies charge waaaaay more for dogfood and catfood because the dog owners and cat owners can be convinced to pay more with words, gimmicks and guilt trips... and mass advertising on TV costs a lot of money.

The cattle producer or the chicken producer is, first and foremost, a businessman and therefore wants to see results. If you are going to charge them more you had better show them that they can bring more or better product to market or bring it to market quicker. Otherwise it is "NO SALE".

My observation about gassy foods, is just that...an observation... but I found that when there was any soy product in the dog's diet...the gas production escalated.

I am currently feeding a Blue Seal Feed that is 30/20. I pay about $30 bucks for 40# bag and every 12 bags I get one for free with a coupon I get from the company after sending in 12 UPC's. My dogs do not lack for energy or endurance.

If that became unavailable, or got unacceptably pricey, I would probably try Diamond or Loyall because they are also good quality feeds and reasonably priced.

The one dog or even two hunting dog owner has considerably more latitude in selecting dogfoods because five or ten dollars more per bag ain't gonna break the bank when the bag lasts a month.

When you get into multiple dogs, five, eight or more...it adds up real fast. I had five adult dogs up until a few weeks ago and that was basically a bag of food a week.

RayG

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:48 pm

Feed what the dog does well on. Our chessies are vastly different, the young male is eating twice what my Vizsla, EP's and big GSP are eating. Our female chessie can't eat 1/2 of what the boy eats! She also gets really bad diarrhea if we overfeed her at all or if we go with a higher energy feed. You might have to try some different feeds to find one you're happy with - but with the oily coat and all, they tend to do fine without added supplements in their feed.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:05 pm

yukonjasper wrote:I'd like to know also - if you can shoot me a PM I'll add it to the list of probably don't try.

I feed it, and never had a problem once I figured out how much to feed...

Many times gas is a result of over feeding...

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:15 pm

RayG,

Wish you had stuck to trialing because I really like what you say and how you say it. But you are not doing anywhere near as well when you get into dog food. Though your analysis sounds good the facts are there are no fillers in dog food and there is a great deal of difference in a pig starter, chick starter, and dog food. First and foremost they are over 50% corn and have a protein base of soy. That tells you a great deal of the difference in price. And there are many other differences also such as the bag which is twice as expensive, the amount of fat that is included in dog food with very little in chick or pig starter and a much cheaper processing of the feeds compared to dog food.

I agree with you that some of what is done is marketing but if you followed the same protocol for dog food as they do for livestock feed the poor little old lady and the pet owner that thinks their dog is a child would come unglued even though the feed would be just as good in most cases. In other words the whole manufacturing process is different and more expensive including the bags we use for livestock feed.

Another thing to think about is it makes no difference what the percent of protein is but rather how many grams the dog is consuming. Light eaters can get by very well with high protein levels while the bigger eater that is working hard and consuming a lot more feed needs a lower percentage. I agree with your choice of feeds and do think that Diamond, Sportsmix and probably we could include Loyall are providing a darn good feed and at the same time doing it at a reasonable cost to the customer. And many others are producing a good feed also but due to their manufacturing and marketing strategies they are quite a bit higher in cost for a product no better than the ones mentioned.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:58 am

Blue Seal, Ray ever try Natural 26? That was the first high-end food we fed.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am

mcbosco wrote:Blue Seal, Ray ever try Natural 26? That was the first high-end food we fed.

No I have not tried that one...yet. so far the Blue seal product i have been using for about two years now is doing a great job for my dogs and unless there is an availability issue or a big price jump, i'll be feeding it for the foreseeable future.

Ezzy -

You and I both know that while there are differences between the various feed types, the cost of the ingredients is trivial compared to the cost of processing, packaging, transportation and marketing. Corn is cheap...sure...but much more of it is needed. Fish and meat meals are expensive(relative to corn) but you need much less. Once you have the machinery to process in place and functioning, there is very little in the way of incremental costs other than the power utilization. Lets not forget the wholesaler, distributor and dealer markups either.

Waaay back in the dim past, I used to work in the packaging industry. The cost of a soda can was about 2 1/2 cents at that time. The total cost of the soda to fill it was less than a tenth of a cent. A case of Coca Cola was about $3 for 24 cans or about 12 1/2 cents a can in the store. The cost of the beer to fill the same can was, as I recall, less than half a cent. The numbers may have changed, but I'd bet the relative percentages of costs are less and the margins are higher today. Fact is the container cost waaaaay more than the of the product inside. Still does, I am sure.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the cost of the ingredients, as raw materials, in a bag of premium dogfood was on the order of three to four bucks and the cost of the decorated bag they put it in was the best part of a dollar.

Bottom line, buy a good quality feed with a relatively high level of protein and fat and if your hunting dog does well on it, stick with it.

RayG

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:07 am

Do the research & decide for yourself. Just remember that a good food that costs more at the cash register generally costs less to feed because you're using less of it.

i wish that were true. i was bored at work the other day and made this. the "dog k/cal" is the amount of calories the dog needs to maintain its weight at a given activity level. the "cups per day" is the number of cups of food you need to feed to meet the calorie requirement of the dog.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:49 am

brad27 wrote:
Do the research & decide for yourself. Just remember that a good food that costs more at the cash register generally costs less to feed because you're using less of it.

i wish that were true. i was bored at work the other day and made this. the "dog k/cal" is the amount of calories the dog needs to maintain its weight at a given activity level. the "cups per day" is the number of cups of food you need to feed to meet the calorie requirement of the dog.

Nice chart. Unfortunately, number of calories & cost is not a straight equation. It's what makes up those calories that counts. Just take a look at Ray Guberat's post directly above yours and you'll see what I mean. (Thanks Ray!)

Furthermore, where did you get "the amount of calories the dog needs to maintain it's weight at a given activity level"? What exactly does that number represent? You would need to qualify it by saying that the figure represents X breed of dog that weighs XX lbs & engages in X type of activity every day for it to equal XXXX caloric output per day.

Don't get me wrong, I have the mathematical aptitude of a rock & admire people who can work out stuff like that. But I think there needs to some basic precepts established for the chart to be useful.

JMHO,