AAFCO Changing Nutritional Guidelines

[Del Lolo]

There are quite a few changes being made for 2014.
Interesting is the Calcium recommendations for puppies.
In any case, this is the first time actual science has been used on this issue and it is definitely different from what we have been led to believe.

The link : http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.petfoodins ... _Final.pdf

.

[Fran Seagren]

Good grief! That was too hard to read. I guess I'll wait for the "Dog Nutrition for Dummies" version to come out.

[ezzy333]

Good grief! That was too hard to read. I guess I'll wait for the "Dog Nutrition for Dummies" version to come out.

I agree. I looked through it and didn't see any major changes. They just tweeked the limits a little.

I didn't see anything that showed there was a difference science used than before. Science is not decided by a committee that I have ever heard of. About the only science that can be used are feeding tests along with posting to see what was happening internally and we have been doing that for years and years.

As of now I doubt anyone will see any big or noticeable difference. But I admit I sure didn't study it.

Ezzy

[Del Lolo]

You wouldn't know this by following advice on the internet or seeing the plethora of Large Breed Puppy foods out there, but it appears that the craze to starve dogs of calcium based on really weak science and anecdote is ending. Based on the NRC recommendations, AAFCO's new guidelines, which use large breed puppies as the baseline, have adopted a new range for what is acceptable. Apparently the minimum is being raised from 1% to 1.20% (DM) based on studies showing that less could inhibit proper growth and that the maximum is being lowered from 2.50% (DM) to 1.80%(DM) based on studies that above 2% there is risk. The limit of 1.80% (DM) is quite a bit higher than what the marketing of some LBP foods suggest. The NRC concluded that optimal growth is achieved from 1.30% (DM) to 1.80% (DM) in large breed puppies. There is no explanation as to why AAFCO went with 1.20%. There will be one standard for puppy and ALS foods using the needs of large breed puppies as the guide. There was talk of having two standards depending on the puppy size but they opted to go with the lower for all puppies. In any event, this is the first time actual science has weighed in on this issue and it is quite different from what people have been led to believe. In the prior guidelines, large breed puppies were never considered, which opened the floodgates for the marketing people.

[Labs4Me]

Interesting. I wonder what this means for all the LBP formulas? Which I always thought were a marketing scam to begin with. But many of them are below, often far below, the minimum calcium the revised guidelines require.


I also wonder how long it will take for this information to trickle out to the self proclaimed dog food expert sites? There is so much "if you feed a kibble with more than 1.3% calcium your large breed puppy will be doomed!" hysteria.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Gosh I guess this scientific revelation will change the dog food world!! 10 or 20 yrs down the Rd it will will probably change again,surprise! surprise!
Is this anything we haven't heard before,let me see we were told to drink diet soda if we were going to drink soda now they say DS is worse then crack cocaine & it makes you gain weight not loose.
Eat margerine not butter & on & on.I take it all for what it's worth & that is very little & I don't loose much sleep over it.

[ezzy333]

Changing the guidelines is nothing new and I see no real difference in the way it was done. The changes I see are not major but just bringing them up to date which has been done every few years. There is a lot of work that continues to be done in all feeds as our source ingredients change and some new ones added. Plus what was brought up, recommendations continue to change constantly it seems when you observe all of the changes that that almost completely contradict the previous recommendations.

For those of us that feed dry feed, the manufacturer will adjust their formulas but can you imagine what the raw feeders will do when they have little idea what they are feeding to begin with. I think it will be completely ignored since they can't control any percentage if each ingredient isn't tested or weighed so they know what percentage they are feeding.

It will be interesting to see what the changes do to our dog food and inturn what they do for our dogs. It will be my guess they will be so minor that it won't even show to the naked eye and very few people will even know they were changed.

Del Lolo, tell me when the last change was, what did it cover, and where did the information come from?


Ezzy

[SCT]

Gosh I guess this scientific revelation will change the dog food world!! 10 or 20 yrs down the Rd it will will probably change again,surprise! surprise!
Is this anything we haven't heard before,let me see we were told to drink diet soda if we were going to drink soda now they say DS is worse then crack cocaine & it makes you gain weight not loose.
Eat margerine not butter & on & on.I take it all for what it's worth & that is very little & I don't loose much sleep over it.

Just give me classic coke and butter

[Del Lolo]

Del Lolo, tell me when the last change was, what did it cover, and where did the information come from?

Ezzy

I don't know.
I don't know.
Info came from AAFCO.

[ezzy333]

That's my point, none of us know or care about the changes that happen as new research suggests a change might be helpful. And I assume these changes will continue.

In other words it is pretty much a non-issue, but as the scientific research continues to learn more there will be more changes ahead. At least that is the way it is supposed to happen.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

Advent of large breed puppy formulas oddly coincides with the increase of CCL problems.

[pointstar]

There are quite a few changes being made for 2014.
Interesting is the Calcium recommendations for puppies.
In any case, this is the first time actual science has been used on this issue and it is definitely different from what we have been led to believe.

The link : http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.petfoodins ... _Final.pdf

.

Canine food requirements do not change, however what makes the dog food company the most money will. Once a pup is weaned, the mother brings meat back to the pups from the hunt and regurgitates it. No dog food company is needed. Blue Buffalo price per pound with coupons and store discount both, $2.11 per lb with tax, Hamburger $1.89 per lb wth no tax...... and no corn, wheat, soy or ground bonemeal which is the reason for the Calcium recommendation change. So should my pup be eating dog food buffalos, or real cows. Think out of the box and your dog will benefit.

[Labs4Me]

Canine food requirements do not change, however what makes the dog food company the most money will. Once a pup is weaned, the mother brings meat back to the pups from the hunt and regurgitates it. No dog food company is needed. Blue Buffalo price per pound with coupons and store discount both, $2.11 per lb with tax, Hamburger $1.89 per lb wth no tax...... and no corn, wheat, soy or ground bonemeal which is the reason for the Calcium recommendation change. So should my pup be eating dog food buffalos, or real cows. Think out of the box and your dog will benefit.

The calcium was revised upwards.

Hamburger alone will result in a nutritionally deprived dog. This is the biggest problem I see with raw feeding. People who think it's as easy as throwing some raw meat at a dog and thinking it is sufficient.

[pointstar]

Canine food requirements do not change, however what makes the dog food company the most money will. Once a pup is weaned, the mother brings meat back to the pups from the hunt and regurgitates it. No dog food company is needed. Blue Buffalo price per pound with coupons and store discount both, $2.11 per lb with tax, Hamburger $1.89 per lb wth no tax...... and no corn, wheat, soy or ground bonemeal which is the reason for the Calcium recommendation change. So should my pup be eating dog food buffalos, or real cows. Think out of the box and your dog will benefit.

The calcium was revised upwards.

Hamburger alone will result in a nutritionally deprived dog. This is the biggest problem I see with raw feeding. People who think it's as easy as throwing some raw meat at a dog and thinking it is sufficient.

Would your dog take that argument to an all meat fed canus lupus and come home?

The fact is that packaged dog food has and is KILLING dogs, hunting dogs hunt for one main reason, it's food, they may not even know that, but it's true. The next fact is that Canines survived for tens of millions of years without dog foods and had few if any genetic diseases, how can this be?

[pointstar]

Canine food requirements do not change, however what makes the dog food company the most money will. Once a pup is weaned, the mother brings meat back to the pups from the hunt and regurgitates it. No dog food company is needed. Blue Buffalo price per pound with coupons and store discount both, $2.11 per lb with tax, Hamburger $1.89 per lb wth no tax...... and no corn, wheat, soy or ground bonemeal which is the reason for the Calcium recommendation change. So should my pup be eating dog food buffalos, or real cows. Think out of the box and your dog will benefit.

The calcium was revised upwards.

Hamburger alone will result in a nutritionally deprived dog. This is the biggest problem I see with raw feeding. People who think it's as easy as throwing some raw meat at a dog and thinking it is sufficient.

Bye the way all of my dogs meat is cooked in little as little water as needed and that is added to the meat. Yes I knew that the calcium recommendations were revised upward, because that is what bonemeal is mostly made of. It's food scraps, not table scraps but slaughterhouse scraps, which is the garbage that did not even make it to the table.

You might try Googling dog foods killing dogs and see what you find.

[Labs4Me]

Would your dog take that argument to an all meat fed canus lupus and come home?

The fact is that packaged dog food has and is KILLING dogs, hunting dogs hunt for one main reason, it's food, they may not even know that, but it's true. The next fact is that Canines survived for tens of millions of years without dog foods and had few if any genetic diseases, how can this be?

To which Canis lupus are you referring? To a Canis lupus familiaris the answer is a resounding yes. In fact, I would take that argument to the undomesticated species as well because they need bone and organ meat to survive to the median age of 6-8 years. (Interestingly enough wolves raised in captivity on "packaged food" have an average lifespan that is double that of their wild counterparts)

Please cite your sources for your assertion that packaged food is killing dogs.

And the Miocene era is less than 6 million years ago, that age of species clarification aside, please cite your sources for 1. a lack of genetic diseases in the family Canidae and 2. how food causes genetic diseases.

edited to add: P.S this issue has been hashed to death here and you can find the discussions fairly easily. So I am wondering why you felt the need to bring it up again?

and I am kicking myself for even responding

[pointstar]

Would your dog take that argument to an all meat fed canus lupus and come home?

The fact is that packaged dog food has and is KILLING dogs, hunting dogs hunt for one main reason, it's food, they may not even know that, but it's true. The next fact is that Canines survived for tens of millions of years without dog foods and had few if any genetic diseases, how can this be?

To which Canis lupus are you referring? To a Canis lupus familiaris the answer is a resounding yes. In fact, I would take that argument to the undomesticated species as well because they need bone and organ meat to survive to the median age of 6-8 years. (Interestingly enough wolves raised in captivity on "packaged food" have an average lifespan that is double that of their wild counterparts)

Please cite your sources for your assertion that packaged food is killing dogs.

And the Miocene era is less than 6 million years ago, that age of species clarification aside, please cite your sources for 1. a lack of genetic diseases in the family Canidae and 2. how food causes genetic diseases.

edited to add: P.S this issue has been hashed to death here and you can find the discussions fairly easily. So I am wondering why you felt the need to bring it up again?

and I am kicking myself for even responding

https://www.google.com/#q=dog+food+killing+dogs+2013 Google found 59,700,000 results for dog food killing dogs, I guess in your world it's all fake right?

I never said that food causes genetic diseases. Idiots who feed their dogs corn and linebreed them do that.

As for dog diseases, https://www.google.com/#q=diseases+caus ... g+breeding Show me a deaf wolf with dalmation spots, and you can stop kicking yourself.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Now you are really showing your IGNORANCE!! I can see your not going to be around long so I will leave you to hang yourself like a few others.

[pointstar]

Now you are really showing your IGNORANCE!! I can see your not going to be around long so I will leave you to hang yourself like a few others.

You didn't answer as to is the dog in the photo a GSP or English pointer, nor why your links are to Viszlas, why would you not show the dog you kennel?

You can answer or hide......

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

If you can't tell what breed it is wouldn't do much good to tell you & I don't own Vizslas the links are to F trial placements & the site is owned & ran by a Vizsla breeder it has placements for pointing breed trials,something you eveidently know nothing about Mr smart guy.Who is hiding here my name,address, is there for all to see where is yours?
I don't care if your a millionaire or homeless man your still full of crap.

[pointstar]

If you can't tell what breed it is wouldn't do much good to tell you & I don't own Vizslas the links are to F trial placements & the site is owned & ran by a Vizsla breeder it has placements for pointing breed trials,something you eveidently know nothing about Mr smart guy.Who is hiding here my name,address, is there for all to see where is yours?
I don't care if your a millionaire or homeless man your still full of crap.

I ask because the dog in the photo looks like one of the famous GSP and English pointer crosses that are not unknown in GSP field trial lines. Can you tell me how fast and far the dog runs?

Why are you being so hostile? This was a dog food post, nothing that I posted was in error, and I am sorry for the dogs, that you can not afford to feed the dogs in your multiple cages better food than the corn based kibble that you are bragging about for some reason.

I am also sorry for linebreeders and fools polluting the GSP breed, the best breed in the World with English Pointer blood so that they need to be followed on horses that perhaps .05 percent of all hunters own or that can be used practically on a real hunt in real towns across America.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Sent you a PM

[Bounty_Hunter]

If you can't tell what breed it is wouldn't do much good to tell you & I don't own Vizslas the links are to F trial placements & the site is owned & ran by a Vizsla breeder it has placements for pointing breed trials,something you eveidently know nothing about Mr smart guy.Who is hiding here my name,address, is there for all to see where is yours?
I don't care if your a millionaire or homeless man your still full of crap.

I ask because the dog in the photo looks like one of the famous GSP and English pointer crosses that are not unknown in GSP field trial lines. Can you tell me how fast and far the dog runs?

Why are you being so hostile? This was a dog food post, nothing that I posted was in error, and I am sorry for the dogs, that you can not afford to feed the dogs in your multiple cages better food than the corn based kibble that you are bragging about for some reason.

I am also sorry for linebreeders and fools polluting the GSP breed, the best breed in the World with English Pointer blood so that they need to be followed on horses that perhaps .05 percent of all hunters own or that can be used practically on a real hunt in real towns across America.

Pointstar,

Don't try and argue about nutrition with kibble feeders because they know everything there is to know about proper k9 nutrition. What kills me is that their pet food nutrition labels listed on every bag or package of dog food say its complete quality nutrition, yet almost all of the kibble feeders are supplementing with added meat and raw meaty bones. Even Labs4Me gives his dogs lots of raw meaty bones. Sounds to me like a lack of faith in their food source. I would think some zoos use kibble to cut cost and not because its better nutrition. I also agree Vonzeppelin usually gets angry when confronted by the truth...

[Labs4Me]

One RMB every week or two is not "lots." And I do it because it cleans teeth better than brushing. Other than that, no additives. No lack of faith in my food source here. I wonder why that upsets you so much?

[Bounty_Hunter]

One RMB every week or two is not "lots." And I do it because it cleans teeth better than brushing. Other than that, no additives. No lack of faith in my food source here. I wonder why that upsets you so much?

It doesn't bother me at all. I never hear of raw feeders brushing their dogs teeth or even worrying about it. So are you saying kibble feeders who don't feed raw bones should be brushing their dogs teeth? If so, why?

[slistoe]

If you can't tell what breed it is wouldn't do much good to tell you & I don't own Vizslas the links are to F trial placements & the site is owned & ran by a Vizsla breeder it has placements for pointing breed trials,something you eveidently know nothing about Mr smart guy.Who is hiding here my name,address, is there for all to see where is yours?
I don't care if your a millionaire or homeless man your still full of crap.

I ask because the dog in the photo looks like one of the famous GSP and English pointer crosses that are not unknown in GSP field trial lines. Can you tell me how fast and far the dog runs?

Why are you being so hostile? This was a dog food post, nothing that I posted was in error, and I am sorry for the dogs, that you can not afford to feed the dogs in your multiple cages better food than the corn based kibble that you are bragging about for some reason.

I am also sorry for linebreeders and fools polluting the GSP breed, the best breed in the World with English Pointer blood so that they need to be followed on horses that perhaps .05 percent of all hunters own or that can be used practically on a real hunt in real towns across America.

Vonzep is hostile?

Here goes the merry-go-round.

Anything else you would like to rant about with your arrogant manner fueled by ignorance? There wasn't much you posted that isn't in error.

[slistoe]

One RMB every week or two is not "lots." And I do it because it cleans teeth better than brushing. Other than that, no additives. No lack of faith in my food source here. I wonder why that upsets you so much?

It doesn't bother me at all. I never hear of raw feeders brushing their dogs teeth or even worrying about it. So are you saying kibble feeders who don't feed raw bones should be brushing their dogs teeth? If so, why?

Never brushed a dogs tooth in 35 years. What's your point?

[Labs4Me]

http://www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_ ... ead/692340

So yeah, some raw feeders do have to continue brushing. They also have to deal with fractured teeth and worn down teeth.

I also give the dogs bully sticks for the same reason. RMBs happen to be cheaper.

There is no perfect solution for all dogs. I simply do what I can to avoid having to have a dental done. So far this works for my current 2. It did not work for several previous dogs. CET and weekly brushing and a dental every couple of years were necessary for them. If I need to go that route when my dogs are older I will do it.

So.... any other misconceptions I can help clear up for you? :roll:

[Labs4Me]

One RMB every week or two is not "lots." And I do it because it cleans teeth better than brushing. Other than that, no additives. No lack of faith in my food source here. I wonder why that upsets you so much?

It doesn't bother me at all. I never hear of raw feeders brushing their dogs teeth or even worrying about it. So are you saying kibble feeders who don't feed raw bones should be brushing their dogs teeth? If so, why?

Never brushed a dogs tooth in 35 years. What's your point?

I wish I could say the same. Too many years with a breed notorious for bad teeth. It's probably made me paranoid about dental hygiene.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Thanks Slistoe,

I have to agree with you in that most raw feeders don't own a tooth brush for their dog. If it makes Labs4Me feel better brushing, no big deal then.

[slistoe]

Thanks Slistoe,

I have to agree with you in that most raw feeders don't own a tooth brush for their dog. If it makes Labs4Me feel better brushing, no big deal then.

Yeah, I fed raw for a few years when I was raising ferrets and mink for fur - didn't make much sense to feed the dogs something other than what I was feeding the critters. Otherwise I have fed kibble for the entire life of all my dogs - but one that one we switched to canned when she turned 17 and then her teeth developed problems which the vet blamed on the canned food so we put her back on dry kibble and didn't have a recurrence. Five dogs on dry kibble right now ranging from 3 to 15 years of age. No tooth brushing required.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Slistoe you shouldn't have told him that more then likely he will revoke your THANK YOU!

[ezzy333]

Had up to 30 dogs in the kennel for 10 years or so and have had 3 or 4 for 50 years and have not had a tooth problem yet because they all ate dry food. No brushing and no supplements.

But what do I know, I am one of those stubborn and stupid kibble feeders.

Ezzy

[Bounty_Hunter]

Had up to 30 dogs in the kennel for 10 years or so and have had 3 or 4 for 50 years and have not had a tooth problem yet because they all ate dry food. No brushing and no supplements.

But what do I know, I am one of those stubborn and stupid kibble feeders.

Ezzy

Well now, I have not heard anyone refer to kibble feeders as stupid, just a bit unwilling to accept any advice from raw feeders regardless of what proof is presented. From what I've been reading seems like many dog owners use kibble but add some raw meat to feed their dogs, and most give some raw bones because they know they're good for their teeth. I would like to hear more about what both sides have to offer but without the arguing and insults.

[slistoe]

When any raw feeder has any proof to offer I would be more than interested in reading it. Opinions of other raw feeders does not constitute proof.

I just fed my dogs a bunch of raw meaty bones for their supper tonight. Why did I do it? Because I just butchered my deer and had a bunch of bones lying around. I could throw them to the coyotes or throw them to my dogs. My dogs like them and there is certainly no reason to believe it will do them any harm (except in the case of one old Lab who was having bowel problems in her later years and the bone meal compacted in her bowel causing a blockage - she didn't get any more bones for the next couple of years till she passed, but that didn't prevent her from getting ahold of a couple and getting blockages from them each time). Do I think that I am saving their teeth - not in the least. Do I think I am making them healthier? Not in the least. I just threw them some bones - that is it. They will get their kibble for a couple of days to be sure they are getting proper balance of nutrients and then I will throw another bone in - they will get them as long as I have them - varies from season to season.
Sometime in the next month I will be cleaning out the old freezer burnt meat from the deep freeze as well. I will boil it and give the dogs and cats the soup. They will eat it so it won't go to waste and then they will get their normal supper again. Why do they get it? Because it is a better idea than giving it to the crows and magpies.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Yeah, I fed raw for a few years when I was raising ferrets and mink for fur - didn't make much sense to feed the dogs something other than what I was feeding the critters. Otherwise I have fed kibble for the entire life of all my dogs - but one that one we switched to canned when she turned 17 and then her teeth developed problems which the vet blamed on the canned food so we put her back on dry kibble and didn't have a recurrence. Five dogs on dry kibble right now ranging from 3 to 15 years of age. No tooth brushing required.

Maybe your dogs are living to 15 and beyond because of all those added bones and meat you add to their diet. Also, maybe your dogs would live into their 20s if you fed them less kibble and more of your deer meat. Seems that some articles I've read reported some raw fed dogs living to their late 20s. Can you furnish me with information on how long the oldest kibble fed dogs lived to?

[slistoe]

Yeah, I fed raw for a few years when I was raising ferrets and mink for fur - didn't make much sense to feed the dogs something other than what I was feeding the critters. Otherwise I have fed kibble for the entire life of all my dogs - but one that one we switched to canned when she turned 17 and then her teeth developed problems which the vet blamed on the canned food so we put her back on dry kibble and didn't have a recurrence. Five dogs on dry kibble right now ranging from 3 to 15 years of age. No tooth brushing required.

Maybe your dogs are living to 15 and beyond because of all those added bones and meat you add to their diet. Also, maybe your dogs would live into their 20s if you fed them less kibble and more of your deer meat. Seems that some articles I've read reported some raw fed dogs living to their late 20s. Can you furnish me with information on how long the oldest kibble fed dogs lived to?

It is easy to get a list of the oldest dogs in the world. Maybe you could track down the owners and ask them what their dogs diet consisted of. I did waste a little time out of curiosity and found one fellow that claimed to have found two old dogs and asked about the diet - one was totally carnivirous and the other a total vegan. He was selling "holistic" dog food.

Now that you have convinced me that I have killed my dogs prematurely by feeding them kibble I think I will go out and shoot myself. Or maybe I will just take up poaching deer to feed the dogs. Or maybe not - I will just keep feeding them the quality food that they have been thriving on for the past 35 years.

[Bounty_Hunter]

It is easy to get a list of the oldest dogs in the world. Maybe you could track down the owners and ask them what their dogs diet consisted of. I did waste a little time out of curiosity and found one fellow that claimed to have found two old dogs and asked about the diet - one was totally carnivirous and the other a total vegan. He was selling "holistic" dog food.Now that you have convinced me that I have killed my dogs prematurely by feeding them kibble I think I will go out and shoot myself. Or maybe I will just take up poaching deer to feed the dogs. Or maybe not - I will just keep feeding them the quality food that they have been thriving on for the past 35 years.

You don't seem so irrational that you would harm your self. I do think you might want to close your kibble bag a little tighter though, because those fumes must be getting to you. I hope you do keep giving your dogs what's best for them. They don't call it (deer meat) for nothing!

[slistoe]

I was just emulating the same rational thought process that has been demonstrated in your comments. Do I need to worry?

[ezzy333]

Yeah, I fed raw for a few years when I was raising ferrets and mink for fur - didn't make much sense to feed the dogs something other than what I was feeding the critters. Otherwise I have fed kibble for the entire life of all my dogs - but one that one we switched to canned when she turned 17 and then her teeth developed problems which the vet blamed on the canned food so we put her back on dry kibble and didn't have a recurrence. Five dogs on dry kibble right now ranging from 3 to 15 years of age. No tooth brushing required.

Maybe your dogs are living to 15 and beyond because of all those added bones and meat you add to their diet. Also, maybe your dogs would live into their 20s if you fed them less kibble and more of your deer meat. Seems that some articles I've read reported some raw fed dogs living to their late 20s. Can you furnish me with information on how long the oldest kibble fed dogs lived to?

I know I couldn't and am sure no one else can either. Good part about that is it has little to do with diet unless you want to compare a dog that is starved to death against a dog getting the proper amount. If diet had anything to do with it then all of your dogs that are fed alike would live the same amount of time and we know there is no correlation even close to that.

[slistoe]

I was just emulating the same rational thought process that has been demonstrated in your comments. Do I need to worry?

I see you have been displaying your usual charm while I've been away. By the way do you always feel the need to bail out your loose lipped friend every time he gets in a jam?

How wonderful, now we get your opinions disguised as facts as well?

[walkos5]

Yeah, I fed raw for a few years when I was raising ferrets and mink for fur - didn't make much sense to feed the dogs something other than what I was feeding the critters. Otherwise I have fed kibble for the entire life of all my dogs - but one that one we switched to canned when she turned 17 and then her teeth developed problems which the vet blamed on the canned food so we put her back on dry kibble and didn't have a recurrence. Five dogs on dry kibble right now ranging from 3 to 15 years of age. No tooth brushing required.

Maybe your dogs are living to 15 and beyond because of all those added bones and meat you add to their diet. Also, maybe your dogs would live into their 20s if you fed them less kibble and more of your deer meat. Seems that some articles I've read reported some raw fed dogs living to their late 20s. Can you furnish me with information on how long the oldest kibble fed dogs lived to?

I know I couldn't and am sure no one else can either. Good part about that is it has little to do with diet unless you want to compare a dog that is starved to death against a dog getting the proper amount. If diet had anything to do with it then all of your dogs that are fed alike would live the same amount of time and we know there is no correlation even close to that.

I disagree, simply because humans have a history of health problems that have been associated with a bad or improper diet, and dogs are living animals as are humans, so just because there is a lack of research on what might be a better diet for dogs doesn't mean people can't use their intelligence and some basic science to conclude that there are some foods that are a better fit for dogs.

[walkos5]

I was just emulating the same rational thought process that has been demonstrated in your comments. Do I need to worry?

I see you have been displaying your usual charm while I've been away. By the way do you always feel the need to bail out your loose lipped friend every time he gets in a jam?

How wonderful, now we get your opinions disguised as facts as well?

If I put all of your facts together I'd have 1 fact and that is the fact that all you have is your own opinions and a talent for twisting words for your own benefit.

[ezzy333]

Maybe your dogs are living to 15 and beyond because of all those added bones and meat you add to their diet. Also, maybe your dogs would live into their 20s if you fed them less kibble and more of your deer meat. Seems that some articles I've read reported some raw fed dogs living to their late 20s. Can you furnish me with information on how long the oldest kibble fed dogs lived to?

I know I couldn't and am sure no one else can either. Good part about that is it has little to do with diet unless you want to compare a dog that is starved to death against a dog getting the proper amount. If diet had anything to do with it then all of your dogs that are fed alike would live the same amount of time and we know there is no correlation even close to that.

I disagree, simply because humans have a history of health problems that have been associated with a bad or improper diet, and dogs are living animals as are humans, so just because there is a lack of research on what might be a better diet for dogs doesn't mean people can't use their intelligence and some basic science to conclude that there are some foods that are a better fit for dogs.

Just to set the record straight animal nutrition is way ahead of people nutrition simply because we can post the animals ands see what is really happening. There have been an awful lot of animals posted to help discover what happens with people as well as animals but it just isn't quite as accurate when we switch species.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

How wonderful, now we get your opinions disguised as facts as well?

If I put all of your facts together I'd have 1 fact and that is the fact that all you have is your own opinions and a talent for twisting words for your own benefit.

Whatever makes you happy in your own world.

[slistoe]

Just to set the record straight animal nutrition is way ahead of people nutrition simply because we can post the animals ands see what is really happening. There have been an awful lot of animals posted to help discover what happens with people as well as animals but it just isn't quite as accurate when we switch species.

Ezzy

Not to mention that the researchers actually live longer than their subjects.

[Labs4Me]

If diet had anything to do with it then all of your dogs that are fed alike would live the same amount of time and we know there is no correlation even close to that

I'm still waiting for this fact to actually be addressed. The only paired litter mate study I know of that looked at longevity is the Purina one and what was fed was not the issue but amounts fed and lean body scoring did have an impact:


http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ar ... p?id=26745

Dogs living well into their 20s are aberrations and there is no statistical correlation between being raw fed and longevity much less enough data to determine causation. The cute interest story about "Jerry" the table scrap and outback wildlife fed mongrel is just that. A cute interest story. It does as much and as little to prove superiority of raw diets as the story of Bramble does to prove vegan diets are best for dogs or Butch does for kibble.

[walkos5]

I'm still waiting for this fact to actually be addressed. The only paired litter mate study I know of that looked at longevity is the Purina one and what was fed was not the issue but amounts fed and lean body scoring did have an impact:http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ar ... p?id=26745Dogs living well into their 20s are aberrations and there is no statistical correlation between being raw fed and longevity much less enough data to determine causation. The cute interest story about "Jerry" the table scrap and outback wildlife fed mongrel is just that. A cute interest story. It does as much and as little to prove superiority of raw diets as the story of Bramble does to prove vegan diets are best for dogs or Butch does for kibble.

Its too bad they didn't list what diet they fed. I also wonder just what they consider a perfectly balanced diet? Is there really a perfect balanced diet for any living thing?
And if there were, do you really think it would come from a bag of some processed concoction for mass sale? I'm not trying being difficult just rational. Here's something to think about. Ask some older folks and I mean older, like mid 80s to early 90s what they ate in their youth. I'll bet they will agree they ate mostly home prepared meals from scratch, lots of garden veggies, soups, stews and fresh meats and poultry when they could afford it. I know we live in this high tech era where everything comes pre packaged and cars park themselves but even amidst the huge environmental challenges and the tampering that occurs with our once pure foods, I like to think that we all have that inner respect for the things nature created. Especially our food source...

[Labs4Me]

https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Coll ... 9_1315.pdf

They ate Purina foods.

Retrospective analysis of human food consumption is not going to cut it. Warm fuzzies and what we'd "like to think" are not sound science. The majority of human nutritional deficiencies are corrected by supplemented food sources. There is a reason we add iron and B vitamins to cereals and breads, for example.

[ezzy333]

If diet had anything to do with it then all of your dogs that are fed alike would live the same amount of time and we know there is no correlation even close to that

I'm still waiting for this fact to actually be addressed. The only paired litter mate study I know of that looked at longevity is the Purina one and what was fed was not the issue but amounts fed and lean body scoring did have an impact:


http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ar ... p?id=26745

Dogs living well into their 20s are aberrations and there is no statistical correlation between being raw fed and longevity much less enough data to determine causation. The cute interest story about "Jerry" the table scrap and outback wildlife fed mongrel is just that. A cute interest story. It does as much and as little to prove superiority of raw diets as the story of Bramble does to prove vegan diets are best for dogs or Butch does for kibble.

I agree completely with your post. The physical condition of the dog no matter what it was fed does have an impact to some extent on length of life but we have never been able to connect it to what is fed. Very good post. Just honestly wish there was a way to convince people who get off on some other track of what is the actual facts. But it will probably never happen.

Ezzy