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Raw Feeding

Re: Raw Feeding

Postby MJB64 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm

Why did I just get the idea that I should watch “Soylent Green” again?

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby nanney1 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:31 am

Many years ago (20 or so), I jumped on the BARF diet for about a year and a half. I think it was called BARF before RAW became the preferred term. Read Dr. Billinghurst's book, etc.. The dog I was feeding was the single family pet, and a large, heavy coated show dog. She did fine, ate fine, and was healthy. I fed chicken quarters, beef bones, hamburger, chicken backs, turkey necks, some organ meet, and juiced veggies to mix with the meat. Did she look any better or have a better coat than when on kibble? Was she more energetic? Maybe?, not really?,...I don' t know? Looking back, I didn't see any difference.

Added a smaller dog and continued with the RAW diet. Both dogs did fine. Then added another large dog and I ran out of refrigerator/freezer space and time. Went back to kibble and never looked back. None of the dogs were short-lived.

Fast forward to the last 6 years. Got another dog and agreed to do the show ring thing. Always fed kibble. This breed is small, compact, and muscular. I've asked others what they fed. Some fed Pro Plan, others fed Nutro, others Eukanuba, and some feed RAW. In the show ring, you can't tell a difference between the kibble fed and the raw fed. Some kibble fed dogs are a little chunky while others are very muscular. The same can be said for RAW fed dogs from the same owner. Some of their raw fed dogs are a little heavy while others are in great visible condition, displaying lean hard muscle.

As a whole, I haven't seen a difference.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby MonsterDad » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:35 pm

Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Steve007 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:24 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.


It's good to see a little humor around here! :lol:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby cjhills » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:03 pm

Do people put as much thought into their own diet as they do into their dog's diet. I think mine could do well on frozen deer poop.....................Cj
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby MonsterDad » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:01 am

Steve007 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.


It's good to see a little humor around here! :lol:


I will rephrase so you understand. The teeth of raw fed stay much cleaner.....

This is a fact. No carbs means no plaque and tartar. Carbs in the mouth are required for the formation of plaque and tartar. Also, raw dogs tend to get things like chicken necks and backs which scrub the teeth and gums.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Fozzie's Mom » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:39 am

MonsterDad wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.


It's good to see a little humor around here! :lol:


I will rephrase so you understand. The teeth of raw fed stay much cleaner.....

This is a fact. No carbs means no plaque and tartar. Carbs in the mouth are required for the formation of plaque and tartar. Also, raw dogs tend to get things like chicken necks and backs which scrub the teeth and gums.


I second that! We see it in the office all the time. It's the sugars (carbs) that turn to the plaque and tartar.

Grains aren't necesssarily what most dogs are allergic to (it's the protein source, and the chemicals and dyes, which are what I'm more leery of), but grains really contribute to inflammatory response. That can make allergies worse, pave the way for yeast to take hold, and even make arthritis worse.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:13 am

I have fed all of my dogs The same feed and some where near half of them will develop a small amount of tartar and half will be white and clean all afteor 'life. Npn have ever had a problem that required medical attention hat we did find on testing why the difference it was determined by the acidity level in the mouth more than anything else But I think we all will admit that feeding raw is good for the teeth an mouth. We just aren't willing to trade a cleaner mouth for the short comings that it presents to the health of a dog. especially when working in the field or on a sled team.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby shags » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:07 pm

I only know a few people who feed-or fed- raw and they all comment about the clean teeth. But 5 minutes with a tooth scaler once a month works too.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:01 pm

I've buried a lot of dogs from old age. I have never needed vet services for the teeth on any of my dogs.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby bustingcover » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:30 pm

If you have the space and time a proper raw diet is better than kibble.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:39 pm

A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby bustingcover » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


I’ve fed a complete raw diet for dogs in competition but anyone out of competition got kibble just because it was a pain todo it for a number of dogs. The dogs look great on it and it gives more control. I can get a dog emptied out faster on a raw diet and there’s no wasted energy as far as digestion. That said dogs look good on kibble that work for them too. Food isn’t going to change a dud into a wonder dog and most don’t work hard enough to see a real difference.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Fozzie's Mom » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo. :|
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:49 am

Fozzie's Mom wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo. :|

Exactly what we have been trying to teach for years after seeing the results in the feed test and research.

.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:27 am

Fozzie's Mom wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo. :|



:P

Humans that safely operate dangerous machinery, perform high cognitive operations, feed themselves and other humans, are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet?

Congratulations! You have achieved cartoon status :lol:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:49 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:
Fozzie's Mom wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo. :|



:P

Humans that safely operate dangerous machinery, perform high cognitive operations, feed themselves and other humans, are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet?

Congratulations! You have achieved cartoon status :lol:
I think I have asked before, but am still waiting for a raw feeder to tell us what the guarantees are on the feed you feed your dog daily. Never have seen the answer. No one is arguing that raw feeding is bad, it is just the inability of the individual to weight or measure how much of the different nutrients the feed contains or that the dog get daily. I doubt if any of us, including you and me would buy a dog food that didn't have a uniform mix and didn't have a label that showed exactly what the dog was getting each and everyday. Fill us in as to what you feed and how do you check it?

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:56 am

Just last night, I was cooking up some bison burgers from the one I shot last month, and I figured I would offer up a tiny piece of the raw burger for my 8 week old GSP. He sniffed it, sat down and looked at me. He wanted no part of it. I found that kinda odd, but figured, oh well, maybe next time.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby SCT » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:54 am

Ezzy, on a scientific page on FB called "The Institute of Canine Biology" there was an article about raw feed meals and they broke down all of the nutrients down by category and quantity of I think 40 different raw meal recipes (might have been twice that number). They basically said that out of every meal recipe there was at least one important nutrient/ingredient missing and at least one quantity of another nutrient/ingredient too high or too low. I wish I could cite it better, but every single meal had an imbalance to some degree and some were really lacking in key nutrients/ingredients for a sustained healthy dog. And for that reason, I'm out!
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:30 pm

Once again, you put forward that it takes a lab coat to feed a dog. Here's a lab coat Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson PhD. Many including my former vet (retired) have been raw feeding for decades.

By rotating the source animal meat, bone, liver, organ, balance is easily achieved. I do supplement with kelp and fish oil when I run out of oily fish. Most of the nutrients sprayed on kibble are to make up for those lost in processing meats or absent altogether in plant matter.

As always, it's not for everyone. Read the book it's $15 on Amazon ;)
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:07 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:Once again, you put forward that it takes a lab coat to feed a dog. Here's a lab coat Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson PhD. Many including my former vet (retired) have been raw feeding for decades.

By rotating the source animal meat, bone, liver, organ, balance is easily achieved. I do supplement with kelp and fish oil when I run out of oily fish. Most of the nutrients sprayed on kibble are to make up for those lost in processing meats or absent altogether in plant matter.

As always, it's not for everyone. Read the book it's $15 on Amazon ;)
So what percent protein, fat, and fiber are you feeding?
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Steve007 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:35 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:Many including my former vet (retired) have been raw feeding for decades.


There are about 107,000 employed vets in the US. Plus your former one. It is self-evident that some percentage of them are crackpots or conspiracists. And the little babe to whom you refer named Lew Olson has her PhD. in "natural nutrition". That would be what? And from where?
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby polmaise » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:56 pm

I have said it before on here and other channels .
Dogs eat Sh*t , not only their own but often others ,and some actually like it !!
So what you put in a bowl don't mean a whole lot to some :mrgreen:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote: So what percent protein, fat, and fiber are you feeding?


I don't exactly know. I feed actual meat, god handles balance of digestable protein and fat. The only time I add/subtract fat is when we are hunting 4+ days in a week or I score a ton of 73/27 ground beef on sale. That said, since beef and pork are roughly 25% protein, chicken and venison slightly higher, and oily fish slightly lower, in kibble terms I'm at about 25/19.

Likewise, dogs fed a balanced diet of digestible protein/fat/organs don't require plant fiber, although she does get some partially digested/fermented plant matter from the green (unwashed)tripe she eats every day.

How much digestible protein is in corn gluten and brewers rice? :roll:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby shags » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:17 am

Chicken per gram is about 20% protein, and corn gluten meal per gram goes 60-70%.

IME dogs like some fiber. My dogs occasionally graze, and in the winter they like a little chunk of cubed timothy hay added to their bowls once in a while.

My neighbor around the corner fed all his dogs raw all their lives. He never considered it a hassle - he turned his dogs loose and they had to hunt and catch something if they wanted to eat. No hunt, no catch, no eat. His dogs didn’t have long lives. The last two got hit by a train while dragging a road kill deer carcass across the tracks. Just adding this to show it takes all kinds :roll:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Fozzie's Mom » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:04 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:
Fozzie's Mom wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.


Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo. :|



:P

Humans that safely operate dangerous machinery, perform high cognitive operations, feed themselves and other humans, are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet?

Congratulations! You have achieved cartoon status :lol:


Just call me Betty Boop! :P

Since your dangerous machinery probably doesn't include a gram scale, mass spectrometer, and other complicated laboratory equipment. . . . .and based on the fact that most humans that feed themselves and others are very dangerously unhealthy in multiple ways. . . . .then I suppose my answer is yes. Most humans are, indeed, incapable. 8) Since we're talking about imbalances on a MICRO scale, and many imbalance-related problems won't crop up for years later, most people think they're doing well by just doing raw. I maintain there's way more to it than that.

I'm here because I know not much about hunting, but am trying to be the best student possible. (And I'm ever appreciative of the help you guys are giving me). I attack my lifelong career with the same thought process, and animal nutrition holds a special place in my heart. :)
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Urban_Redneck » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 pm

There is a chance that the species appropriate diet I feed my dog is not perfect, I accept that. I'm comfortable because I know exactly what my dog is eating and that her body isn't struggling to digest grains and starches.

It's not for everyone.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:29 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:0 and that her body isn't struggling to digest grains and starches.

I don't often laugh at my computer screen, but :lol:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 am

ezzy333 wrote:I think I have asked before, but am still waiting for a raw feeder to tell us what the guarantees are on the feed you feed your dog daily. Never have seen the answer. No one is arguing that raw feeding is bad, it is just the inability of the individual to weight or measure how much of the different nutrients the feed contains or that the dog get daily. I doubt if any of us, including you and me would buy a dog food that didn't have a uniform mix and didn't have a label that showed exactly what the dog was getting each and everyday. Fill us in as to what you feed and how do you check it?

Ezzy


This is just crazy talk Ezzy. All the nutritional analyses (bone percentages, fat, protein, vitamins, etc) are easily referenced on the USDA website. Your assertions are completely nonsensical.

You are feeding foods loaded with carbohydrates, which are counterproductive to good canine health (and by the way no pet food company, TMK, includes carbohydrate percentages in their bags despite your assertions that you would not feed a dog food that didn't have a label that showed exactly what the dog was getting each and every day, when that's exactly what you do.

How about posting a picture of your dog's teeth in this thread Ezzy? I've asked you to this before, but you never comply. Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.

The stamina is better, the lean muscle mass is better, the teeth & breath are cleaner, the coats are better, and the stool is much less with raw feeding.

Some people are just stubbornly behind the times in believing a processed cereal-based diet is optimal for dogs. It ain't.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:41 am

Thank you Bill. Now we know and I can throw away all of the text books I had to buy for college courses. I have often wondered where they got their ideas that were so far off base and how the dogs that were used for research gave us the wrong Info.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby bustingcover » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:03 am

I've learned years ago its silly to argue about what you want to feed your dog with strangers on the internet. Makes no difference.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Urban_Redneck » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:46 am

Image
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:36 am

Spy Car wrote:The stamina is better,
Bill


Where is the proof of that in upland hunting dogs or retrievers? Have you had your dog in competition on the Canadian Prairies in front of a horse for an hour? Does he finish strong to the front leaving dust as he goes?
If raw feeding would assure greater stamina the pros who are trying to win events where stamina is a premium would be sure to using it - pretty much a guarantee that the owners would pay the pros time and cost for the edge on winning.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Meller » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:37 am

I have listened to this argument several times through the years, and nothing has ever changed! Feeding Raw or Feeding Kibble?
So here are my experiences (didn't want to get involved) When I first started feeding dog we didn't have very many choices, at least in my area, I think Diamond came in one bag, take it or find another brand of food, like Bow Wow dog feed, that was your choice, the local feed meal mixed up a feed from a recipe they had; no name feed. And we fed raw from animals on the farm. At this time you tried to stay with what kept your dog in the best shape.
As far as how long they lived, if not hit by a car, or hung in a fence, kicked by a cow, or horse. The oldest seemed to be around 12 to 13 years old, and I was younger then so hunted them hard. Today with all the designer feeds out there, hunt less and my dogs still, only live about 12to13 years old.
And so the argument goes on, and nothing has changed in my experience. So feed what makes you happy and let others do the same. :D
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:44 am

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill


Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:54 am

Spy Car wrote: the stool is much less with raw feeding.

Bill

For a period of time I was fur farming. At the time my dogs were fed "raw". They got the same feed as the mink and ferrets (although mink are miles closer to a true carnivore than any canine species will ever be, the optimum feed for growth, fertility, coat production etc for these animals contained some grain). I can assure you that there are kibble diets producing less stool than when on "raw". And there are kibble diets that can produce stool by the shovelful ( had a year old bull mastiff in to board for a month one time. The owner brought about four 50lb bags of feed store feed. I literally had to get the grain scoop to clean out his kennel in the morning.)
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:04 am

Spy Car wrote:the coats are better,
Bill


A way back in time there was a promo bit about the founding of Eukanuba feeds. As the story went the fellow had visited a mink farm and while there had noticed the quality of the coat on the dogs around the farm. Upon inquiring he found they were eating the mink feed. So he set out to develop a kibble and Eukanuba was born.

When my dogs were eating the mink food they had beautiful coats - but not any better than when I was competing with them on a kibble diet. Granted, there are a vast majority of the kibbles out there that simply will not keep a dog in show coat condition while they are running flat out for hours and hours a week dragging near their body weight in chains - but a 30/20 diet based on chicken by-product and corn will keep the dogs coats in just as good of condition as when they were on the mink feed while working hard. Rice would keep the dogs working hard but I found the coats started to suffer a little (nothing serious to an average person, but I wanted to win in the show ring as well).
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:11 am

Spy Car wrote:Some people are just stubbornly behind the times in believing a processed cereal-based diet is optimal for dogs. It ain't.

Bill


Lastly, I am surprised that in your list of accolades you didn't throw in longevity.

It matters very little to me what you want to feed your dog. I have nothing against feeding a "raw" diet should a person wish to research and formulate such properly - done properly it will not harm your dog. But you are out to lunch with the wild claims of superiority you spout - find some basis that there are actually real world differences and someone might listen to you other than those who are prone to conspirasist theories.
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Thank you Bill. Now we know and I can throw away all of the text books I had to buy for college courses. I have often wondered where they got their ideas that were so far off base and how the dogs that were used for research gave us the wrong Info.

Ezzy


If you don't believe that the nutritional analysis of meat, organ, and poultry parts (including vitamins, minerals, protein, fat, and carbohydrate percentages) isn't easily available online, then your education--such as it is--hasn't served you very well.

The greatest scientific authorities have established that there is no essential need for carbohydrates in a canine diet, yet pet food companies hire "researchers" for one reason only. To keep their profits at a maximum, at the expense of optimal animal health.

You claim you would not feed a ration that didn't include all the information on the bag, when that is precisely what you do. Raw feeders--against your contentions--know precisely what they are giving their dogs.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:18 pm

slistoe wrote:Lastly, I am surprised that in your list of accolades you didn't throw in longevity.

It matters very little to me what you want to feed your dog. I have nothing against feeding a "raw" diet should a person wish to research and formulate such properly - done properly it will not harm your dog. But you are out to lunch with the wild claims of superiority you spout - find some basis that there are actually real world differences and someone might listen to you other than those who are prone to conspirasist theories.


You are flat out wrong, and the differences in condition and stamina are obvious and not at all subtle. Numerous studies have demonstrated that carbohydrates undermine performance (studies paid for, incidentally, mostly by large pet food companies). The same is seen by mushers, greyhound racers, and those hunters not wedded to ignorance of basic nutritional science.

Nothing good comes from feeding dogs carbohydrates.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:26 pm

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill


Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.


How about posting a photo of your current dog's teeth (and noting the age)?

Not paying for vet bills isn't necessarily evidence of clean teeth any more than those who claim to avoid seeing dentists is among humans.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 pm

slistoe wrote:Where is the proof of that in upland hunting dogs or retrievers? Have you had your dog in competition on the Canadian Prairies in front of a horse for an hour? Does he finish strong to the front leaving dust as he goes?
If raw feeding would assure greater stamina the pros who are trying to win events where stamina is a premium would be sure to using it - pretty much a guarantee that the owners would pay the pros time and cost for the edge on winning.


Sled dogs in Canada don't simply need to run ahead of a horse for an hour but when racing need to pull sleds for very long hours for days on end.

That's why mushers feed raw meat and fat, or the same in combination with high-protein/high-fat formulas that minimize carbohydrates. Fat metabolism is extremely efficient in canines and provides a steady and constant supply of glycogen for endurance and stamina. Metabolizing carbs causes a spike in blood glycogen, followed by a crash. This is well established in veterinary science studies (and in the real world).

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:23 pm

Spy Car wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote:Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill


Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.


How about posting a photo of your current dog's teeth (and noting the age)?

Not paying for vet bills isn't necessarily evidence of clean teeth any more than those who claim to avoid seeing dentists is among humans.

Bill

What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth. :wink:
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:52 pm

slistoe wrote:What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth. :wink:


The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.

Teeth crusted and stained with plaque and tarter DOES negatively affect performance in the field.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:11 pm

Spy Car wrote:
slistoe wrote:What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth. :wink:


The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.

Teeth crusted and stained with plaque and tarter DOES negatively affect performance in the field.

Bill

:lol: You have anecdotal evidence of this?
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby cjhills » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:07 am

Spy Car wrote:
slistoe wrote:What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth. :wink:


The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.

Teeth crusted and stained with plaque and tarter DOES negatively affect performance in the field.

Bill

That, right there is an amazing claim. How would you prove it? I really thought you had a point. But that changed my mind...........................Cj
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:48 am

cjhills wrote: That, right there is an amazing claim. How would you prove it? I really thought you had a point. But that changed my mind...........................Cj


How behind the times are you people?

The loss of scenting ability due to poor dental hygiene has been proven multiple times in tests with bomb dogs and drug-detection dogs. The evidence is crystal clear.

Here is but one article, from Gun Dog Magazine. Heard of it?

Bob West: We’re hearing a lot about dental disease in dogs lately. How serious a problem is it for our hunting dogs?

Vet: I’ve seen recent estimates showing at least 80 percent of all dogs over six years of age are affected by periodontal disease...It’s important to realize dental care is more than cosmetics or fresh-smelling breath.

Bob West: Dave, to further your point, I’ve heard of tests with narcotic and bomb dogs that indicated these infections might impact a dog’s scenting ability, too. Combine this with the fact that the military mandates dental cleaning as part of each dog’s regular checkup, and I’m thinking that if we want our dogs to have the edge in scenting and bird finding, “the writing is on the wall.”


http://www.gundogmag.com/health-nutriti ... z54SAhE2By

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:15 am

Th4e article clearly is about periodontal disease and not just plack or stain on the teeth. I as well as Slistoe have explained quiteclearly that we have never had a dog suffer from that and I am sure many others have had the same experience. Searching for excuses is a normal thing to do when you have an agenda but we have kind of drawn a line that that says do it with out getting personal, a line you often step over and it needs to stop.

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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby slistoe » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:33 am

Hey Ezzy, don't be too hard on him - he just helped to point out how irrational his thought process is. Grasp at any straw. No real truth to any of it. (Well, I will grant that fat is a calorie dense feed and dogs can tolerate much higher levels of fat than people can without adverse effect.)
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Re: Raw Feeding

Postby Spy Car » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

ezzy333 wrote:Th4e article clearly is about periodontal disease and not just plack or stain on the teeth. I as well as Slistoe have explained quiteclearly that we have never had a dog suffer from that and I am sure many others have had the same experience. Searching for excuses is a normal thing to do when you have an agenda but we have kind of drawn a line that that says do it with out getting personal, a line you often step over and it needs to stop.

Ezzy


Note Ezzy, the vet in the article mentioned about 80% of dogs over 6 years old have periodontal disease.

The stains, yellowing, and plaque are simply evidence of a bigger problem that the vast majority
of kibble-fed dogs suffer from as a direct consequence of their eating a cereal-based diet.

Periodontal disease is typical in kibble-fed dogs and not unusual.

Bad dental hygiene has been clearly demonstrated to diminish dogs scenting ability. Not a good thing when one is running bird dogs.

The moderating note is too funny given the impartiality with which you exercise your mod powers :roll:

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