Any of you feed raw?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:22 pm

I've asked twice to see picture but no luck......

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:52 pm

slistoe wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Slistoe,

We don't buy things like that and we have very few prepared foods in the house. We eat no fast food, rarely eat anything fried unless olive oil is used and buy organic when possible.
Good for you. It does bother me when folks take a stand on "principle" for their dogs and do not give the same care to themselves and especially their children.

Perhaps someone should contact children in youth services and report me for the occasional use of cheerios to feed my kids. Are you jealous because I choose not to feed my pet the diseased euthanized animals mixed with garbage kibble that you do, because it sure sounds that way?

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:31 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I would say that dogs living to be old age & still healthy & look half their age are thriving.Walkos come back & tell & show us all how much healthier & active your dog is when he/she is 15 yrs old.Untill then your slobbering in your underwear. :roll:

What's old age when comparing dogs? Who determined 14 or 15 is old for the average dog? Sounds like you are taking some tips from the dog food industry because they are the only ones who have research to address what age dogs should live to, unless you know of some source that has sound research with records on how long dogs of the past lived to. Yes dogs can live 12 to 14 years on kibble, but in what condition. I read that 85% of kibble fed dogs suffer from periodontal disease with in their first 3 years. Also many kibble fed dogs that make it into their early teens are likely to suffer from various cancers, inflammatory bowel disease, diabetes, bloat, allergy problems, and arthritis. Lets remember, I plan on hunting my dog until he's 15 or 16, then he can spend his remaining years taking it easy. The only ones slobbering are those poor kibble fed dogs because they can't get enough water.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:37 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I've asked twice to see picture but no luck......

Still working on it, perhaps this weekend.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:05 pm

walkos5 wrote: Are you jealous because I choose not to feed my pet the diseased euthanized animals mixed with garbage kibble that you do, because it sure sounds that way?

Actually I feel sorry for you. I truly mean that. I wish I could help you, but ....

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:28 pm

Walkos good for you but until your dogs do that you are blowing HOT AIR!! There are a few other raw feeders out there you should check on their old dogs.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:50 pm

slistoe wrote:
walkos5 wrote: Are you jealous because I choose not to feed my pet the diseased euthanized animals mixed with garbage kibble that you do, because it sure sounds that way?
Actually I feel sorry for you. I truly mean that. I wish I could help you, but ....

I appreciate your concern, I really do. And you can help me if you really want to, by enrolling yourself in some anger management classes. I've never had any issues like that but perhaps someone on this forum can recommend a good class somewhere. Being true to yourself is a good place to start.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:02 pm

Sharon wrote:
walkos5 wrote:
shags wrote:
I heard it put this way. Dogs survive on commercial dog food but they do not thrive.
Grrrr You're making me want to swear, but I could never swear at you. Fed Purina for 50 years and my dogs definitely thrived and still do.

Thanks for keeping your reply G rated, but I can't let you off the hook that easy so I'll have to say it must be that clean Canadian air and sparkling water up there that makes the difference.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:27 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Walkos good for you but until your dogs do that you are blowing HOT AIR!! There are a few other raw feeders out there you should check on their old dogs.

I did check out an old article from USA Today, I believe it was in 2004 that a cattle dog-bull terrier mix named Jerry was still alive at 27 and was expected to make 28. It seems his owners an Aboriginal family fed him kangaroo, rabbits, emu, and table scraps. No kibble and bit's.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:49 pm

Means little, i know a fella with a 20 year old lab, and he has the papers to prove it.....on kibble its whole life. Next......

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:25 pm

walkos5 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
walkos5 wrote: Are you jealous because I choose not to feed my pet the diseased euthanized animals mixed with garbage kibble that you do, because it sure sounds that way?
Actually I feel sorry for you. I truly mean that. I wish I could help you, but ....
I appreciate your concern, I really do. And you can help me if you really want to, by enrolling yourself in some anger management classes. I've never had any issues like that but perhaps someone on this forum can recommend a good class somewhere. Being true to yourself is a good place to start.

This really is childish. Like I said, I really wish I could help you. No anger on my end, just trying to put some truth to the BS.
Feed what you want - but really, try to conduct yourself with some honor. Don't be untruthful and don't be a hypocrite. And I hope for your dogs sake that you are able to hunt him at 15 years of age - does the line you bought him from have a history of longevity?

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:30 pm

Now remember what I said about being true to yourself. If you claim that there is no anger on your end then I sense some insecurity presented in the form of ridicule. Just be open and honest with people and the insecurity will fade. I can only speak for myself but I would never push my dog beyond his limitations not at 5 or 25. I really do not know the longevity history of my dogs parents or the line.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:58 am

birddog1968 wrote:Means little, i know a fella with a 20 year old lab, and he has the papers to prove it.....on kibble its whole life. Next......

I don't doubt you, and it would be great if you could get your friend to disclose what brand he or she uses and if anything is added to the mix like meat or table scraps. I am sure other readers on this subject would really like this info too. You guys got me all wrong, I am just after the truth. There may be some readers following this debate that are on the fence about what's best for their dogs. Throwing sarcastic comments back and forth is doing no one any good especially for those not in the mix. I don't necessarily need proven scientific information. I think there are some experienced dog owners within this forum that can provide some valuable info that can provide us with a foundation that we can build upon and come to a reasonable agreement. Right now there are 4 or 5 that I have heard that really seem supportive of feeding raw and about 6 or 7 who oppose it and support kibble and a few who remain neutral. It just seems to me that when the kibble supporters can't pick apart common sense statements and facts they use sarcastic comments to throw the conversation off balance. And that's wrong.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:10 am

walkos5 wrote: Right now there are 4 or 5 that I have heard that really seem supportive of feeding raw and about 6 or 7 who oppose it and support kibble and a few who remain neutral.

Who is opposed to feeding raw? I doubt your list will be more than one name long if that.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:14 am

walkos5 wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Means little, i know a fella with a 20 year old lab, and he has the papers to prove it.....on kibble its whole life. Next......
I don't doubt you, and it would be great if you could get your friend to disclose what brand he or she uses and if anything is added to the mix like meat or table scraps. I am sure other readers on this subject would really like this info too. You guys got me all wrong, I am just after the truth. There may be some readers following this debate that are on the fence about what's best for their dogs. Throwing sarcastic comments back and forth is doing no one any good especially for those not in the mix. I don't necessarily need proven scientific information. I think there are some experienced dog owners within this forum that can provide some valuable info that can provide us with a foundation that we can build upon and come to a reasonable agreement. Right now there are 4 or 5 that I have heard that really seem supportive of feeding raw and about 6 or 7 who oppose it and support kibble and a few who remain neutral. It just seems to me that when the kibble supporters can't pick apart common sense statements and facts they use sarcastic comments to throw the conversation off balance. And that's wrong.

I know of a Brittany that lived well past 19 years. I doubt the fellow fed his dog grocery store type kibble - it would have been more like feed store kibble. You know, the stuff made from wheat straw and soy. I had a close relative to that dog that lived to 18, hunted at 15 what she could. She got a variety over her life - Pro Plan, Eagle, Eukanuba, Iams, Nutram.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:17 am

walkos5 wrote: It just seems to me that when the kibble supporters can't pick apart common sense statements and facts they use sarcastic comments to throw the conversation off balance. And that's wrong.

When you post something that is common sense or a actual fact that truly supports what you are saying it does I will not question it. I haven't seen one of either from you in this entire thread.
Who is the one that is using "attack the poster" as their method of argument? Got any new names or conditions you would like to throw my way this morning?

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:02 am

A question for you guys that feed completely raw diets to your high powered hunting dogs. Could you tell me what a complete diet consists of??? I feed raw with kibble two or three times a weeks but it's mostly just chicken necks/backs, hamburger, and venison or bird parts when I have them. I cannot get anyone, including the veterinarian that published that study given earlier in this thread, to give me an actual raw diet plan. Please pm me if you don't want to post it here.

Thanks,

Steve

P.S. This is what that veterinarian told me in a reply to me asking for a diet plan.

"Dear Steve,

Thank you for your email - we appreciate your interest in our work. The goal of our study was to increase awareness regarding the nutritional inadequacy of most readily available recipes, not to promote the use of specific sources for general recipes. Further, some of the passing recipes required assumptions with regard to which ingredients and/or supplement products to use, and may not remain balanced with alternate assumptions. Finally, some recipes from the same source were nutritionally adequate while others were not, therefore a blanket recommendation for any particular source is not possible.

We strongly believe that a customized approach that accounts for the energy requirements and the specific ingredient preferences of the pet and the owner is the most beneficial use of home-prepared diets for healthy pets. When you use a general recipe, you lose the major advantage of this type of diet. This is even more important for pets with diseases, and in that case a "one size fits all" recipe is not indicated and may be harmful. For this reason, our Nutrition Service does not provide or recommend general recipes, and encourages collaboration with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist to develop a comprehensive and customized nutritional management plan including follow-up and adjustments as needed. You can also use one of the services available through consulting companies run by veterinary nutritionists (such as petdiets.com or balanceit.com which provide free and/or very low cost semi-customized recipe options).

More information can be found here:

http://nutrition.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/

and

http://acvn.org/.

Regards,

Dr. Jennifer Larsen"

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:56 am

What a piddling waste of time and here I am entering the fray once again, a part of the problem rather than the solution. I hate myself. Whether or not you choose to feed a raw diet to an animal is an individuals choice. However, arguing that by doing so you are in some way, shape or form a superior logical being is offensive, sophomoric and riddled with loopholes that simple logic will blow apart. The very best high performance dogs in the sporting world are fed kibble. Yes, yes, yes...I know there are examples otherwise just as there are examples for. Now what?

Furthermore, the argument that by being "natural" you are in some way superior in intellect or humanity is an oxymoron for the subject in itself. In nature a dog will not live 15 or 18 years because nature does not provide for that. Using this piece of logic what are you trying to accomplish? Don't tell me your 15 year old dog is better off or "enjoying life" how would you know? We have our dogs living beyond their prime and usefulness for us, not them. Maybe all dogs do go to heaven and we keep them here in an unnatural way. Is this learned old dog going to use its wisdom and experience to govern, maybe write a book? It is a dog and there is not one alive today with a concept of tomorrow. In my world it is the most beautiful thing about them. Like any of you making the argument I am guilty, I want them as long as I can reasonably justify they are comfortable and my tolerance to spend for it is high...probably too high.

In addition, the details of feeding raw or as someone mentioned "table scraps" are very important and probably above the reasonable capacity of most dog owners, even the accomplished. Table scraps speak to cooked and spiced foods many of which have far greater immediate danger than the ten years it will take Ole Roy or whatever to kill your dog with cancer. Not to mention the suspected troubles we are having with the human food supply we have tinkered with anyway.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:34 am

Thank you SCT for your post with the links to pet nutrition. I had decided not to post any of this since I have already been identified as someone you can't believe by the raw food crowd and it would be completely ignored by all of them. I tried to explain the problems that people cause with their feeding programs where they do not have adequate equipment to even formulate a diet. I have also tried to explain why we shouldn't feed supplements and why there is no way any of us can do a better job than the commercial companies with their expertise and the equipment and labs that insure a proper mixture. I think of all the years we spent doing tests under the guidance of our vet and our animal nutritionist, all that had a Masters or doctor's degree. I sincerely hoped I could add something to these people that would help them see just what and how the feeds were formulated and manufactured, but I finally came to the conclusion with this last batch that no matter what I tried to do for them it was being completely regarded as poppy cock. Even to the extent that I was just a representative of the big, bad commercial companies when we all are surrounded with visual evidence of how well the commercial kibbles have performed for probably 99% of our sporting and working dogs.

I, like Slistoe and several others tried but were met with the opinion that what ever the raw crowd was doing was just common sense that really didn't need to be proved to any of us. And even though we pretty much agreed that everyone is welcome to feed what they wanted, we drew the line when they tried to tell us all that what they were doing was the only way to feed if we really cared about our dogs and their well being.

Hopefully this Vet authorized website will better explain what we have been saying but I am betting we won't see that result. At least we tried and hopefully presented the evidence to our other members that 99% of dog owners can't be wrong. Can't remember who used that in there advertising but it seems to fit very well right here.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:47 am

I" heard it put this way. Dogs survive on commercial dog food but they do not thrive." quote Shags

Grrrr You're making me want to swear, but I could never swear at you.

Fed Purina for 50 years and my dogs definitely thrived and still do.[/quote] Sharon

Thanks for keeping your reply G rated, but I can't let you off the hook that easy so I'll have to say it must be that clean Canadian air and sparkling water up there that makes the difference.

[/quote] Shags
..............................

Hey maybe that is it.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:54 am

Yeah Ezzy, the study didn't really surprise me too much, but like everyone here, I'm always interested in something that might benefit my dogs I love so much. I guess if I had a lot of money I would send my dog/dogs to her Nutritional Science Lab and see what she came up with for my specific dogs needs. But, I can only imagine what the diet would consist of or even the time to produce that "perfect" raw diet. I do sincerely wish I could KNOW for myself exactly what food fits their needs and seeing the results of the 8-9 diets that were considered "quality" might shed some light. But, for now, I guess I'll just keep feeding Diamond Naturals EA 32/25. My dogs sure do well on it. Just wish I knew the perfect raw additives I could compliment it with during these cold, active months where they go from eating 2 1/2 cups to maintain, to 6 cups and stay slightly shy of maintaining weight.

Steve

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:07 am

Chukar12 wrote:What a piddling waste of time and here I am entering the fray once again, a part of the problem rather than the solution. I hate myself. Whether or not you choose to feed a raw diet to an animal is an individuals choice. However, arguing that by doing so you are in some way, shape or form a superior logical being is offensive, sophomoric and riddled with loopholes that simple logic will blow apart. The very best high performance dogs in the sporting world are fed kibble. Yes, yes, yes...I know there are examples otherwise just as there are examples for. Now what?

Probably the most intelligent paragraph in this entire thread.

My issue isn't with feeding raw, it the implication that I'm doing my dogs a disservice by not feeding raw.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:39 pm

SCT wrote:Just wish I knew the perfect raw additives I could compliment it with during these cold, active months where they go from eating 2 1/2 cups to maintain, to 6 cups and stay slightly shy of maintaining weight.

Steve

How about a knitted cardigan?

Poultry fat. Or Lard.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:08 pm

slistoe wrote:
SCT wrote:Just wish I knew the perfect raw additives I could compliment it with during these cold, active months where they go from eating 2 1/2 cups to maintain, to 6 cups and stay slightly shy of maintaining weight.

Steve
How about a knitted cardigan?

Poultry fat. Or Lard.

Raw Green Tripe can't be beat. Its high in protein, high in fat and has balanced minerals unlike raw muscle meat or things like chicken backs and necks.

It also has a bunch of digestive enzymes that will help you get more out of the dry food. You can go on and off with it with zero trouble.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:18 pm

MonsterDad wrote:
slistoe wrote:
SCT wrote:Just wish I knew the perfect raw additives I could compliment it with during these cold, active months where they go from eating 2 1/2 cups to maintain, to 6 cups and stay slightly shy of maintaining weight.

Steve
How about a knitted cardigan?

Poultry fat. Or Lard.
Raw Green Tripe can't be beat. Its high in protein, high in fat and has balanced minerals unlike raw muscle meat or things like chicken backs and necks.

It also has a bunch of digestive enzymes that will help you get more out of the dry food. You can go on and off with it with zero trouble.

Tripe will probably work quite well, but the dogs are already getting all the protein and balanced minerals they need from the dog food. They simply need an extra boost of slow burn calories to fire the heater in the cold weather. For dogs that is fat. Although they can utilize fat on an on/off basis, they process it better if it is assimilated into the diet over a period of time and then maintained in the diet. If you supplement with a little fat you don't have to banish the dog from the house to feed him and you can still kiss him after dinner.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:48 pm

I do feed them some raw chicken fat but have to be careful because just a bit too much gives them the runs. Maybe I need to start them off on a small but consistent dose of it and raise the amount as they better tolerate it. I wouldn't have thought they could handle 6 cups of EA but they are burning through it. The green tripe does intrigue me, but it is not cheap and like slistoe said, it's fat that they really need. There are 1000 diets out there for weight loss in dogs, but I can't find anything talking about putting weight on.

This may sound weird, but I've had some success adding weight to them by adding a slice of bread to their daily meal. Hope this won't mess them up.

Steve

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:07 pm

I have never used, but have heard some folks say they feed "satin balls" to weight on a dog.

Satin Balls:
10 pounds raw ground beef, 70%-85% lean
18 ounces Total Multi-grain cereal (or other vitamin-fortified, unsweetened cereal
2 pounds oatmeal, uncooked regular or quick oats (not instant oats)
20 ounces wheat germ
1 ¼ cup canola oil
1 ¼ cup unsulfured molasses
10 hard-boiled eggs and shells, crushed and minced
10 envelopes unflavored gelatin
¼ teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon minced garlic

Combine all ingredients and mix well. Divide into freezer bags in daily ration portions (some divide into 10 equal portions, others 14, and I divide it into one-pound packs). Flatten out the filled bags to expel air and completely fill the bags, and to reduce freezing/thawing times. Seal and place the bags in the freezer in a single layer. Once frozen, the bags can be stacked. For travel, the frozen bags can be placed in a cooler and used to chill other items until needed. Break thawed meat mixture into chunks or roll into meatballs. Feed raw as a meal or supplement.

Yield: approx. 17 pounds @ 1275 calories/pound.

Again I have no experience with these. Just something for thought.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:18 pm

Satin balls work.

Too much fat too quickly and the dogs can't utilize it properly - it needs to go somewhere.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:02 pm

The dogs need a constant high fat diet and not just extra during high activity to really be efficient. And 30 % is pretty high.
Of course the percent doesn't tell you how much fat they are getting as it depends on how much they are eating total.

Ezzy

Labs4Me · Post by **Labs4Me** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:36 pm

My non thriving kibble fed dog

I do give my dogs raw meaty bones on a regular basis. Nature's toothbrush. Beyond that raw feeding and doing it really properly is too time consuming and too difficult with my training and travel schedule and I really don't see the need for it.

There are many myths propagated by the raw feeding crowd. I've seen a bunch here :roll: But my girl's breeder has been feeding kibble and putting out top dogs for decades. I trusted her to get a good dog, and I trust her on how to raise and maintain a good dog. Although I did switch from ProPlan to Dr Tim's but that was a cost cutting measure not a rejection of the product. And yes, I do find it a bit ironic that I can purchase a "boutique" brand for less than a Purina product.

Proper raw feeding can be done by knowledgeable people and I know some of those people. But they have put the time in to learn and do it right and they've been in dogs for long periods of time. The average pet owner? Not so much and I don''t think it is wise to recommend it because of that.

(I can't believe I came out of lurk-mode for this. But the "survive not thrive" comments irked me)

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:54 pm

I've used satin balls and they do work, but I've only used them when they got really thin. They're too expensive to feed my dogs long term. If you only have one dog it wouldn't be bad though. I've also used high quality canned dog food but mostly just when real desperate. I think I'll start a chicken fat addition in small portions and see how it works out.

Thanks all,

Steve

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:32 pm

slistoe wrote:Satin balls work.

Too much fat too quickly and the dogs can't utilize it properly - it needs to go somewhere.

SO where does it go?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:47 pm

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:18 pm

ACooper wrote:I have never used, but have heard some folks say they feed "satin balls" to weight on a dog.

Satin Balls:
10 pounds raw ground beef, 70%-85% lean
18 ounces Total Multi-grain cereal (or other vitamin-fortified, unsweetened cereal
2 pounds oatmeal, uncooked regular or quick oats (not instant oats)
20 ounces wheat germ
1 ¼ cup canola oil
1 ¼ cup unsulfured molasses
10 hard-boiled eggs and shells, crushed and minced
10 envelopes unflavored gelatin
¼ teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon minced garlic

Combine all ingredients and mix well. Divide into freezer bags in daily ration portions (some divide into 10 equal portions, others 14, and I divide it into one-pound packs). Flatten out the filled bags to expel air and completely fill the bags, and to reduce freezing/thawing times. Seal and place the bags in the freezer in a single layer. Once frozen, the bags can be stacked. For travel, the frozen bags can be placed in a cooler and used to chill other items until needed. Break thawed meat mixture into chunks or roll into meatballs. Feed raw as a meal or supplement.

Yield: approx. 17 pounds @ 1275 calories/pound.

Again I have no experience with these. Just something for thought.

A step in the right direction...

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Thank you SCT for your post with the links to pet nutrition. I had decided not to post any of this since I have already been identified as someone you can't believe by the raw food crowd and it would be completely ignored by all of them. I tried to explain the problems that people cause with their feeding programs where they do not have adequate equipment to even formulate a diet. I have also tried to explain why we shouldn't feed supplements and why there is no way any of us can do a better job than the commercial companies with their expertise and the equipment and labs that insure a proper mixture. I think of all the years we spent doing tests under the guidance of our vet and our animal nutritionist, all that had a Masters or doctor's degree. I sincerely hoped I could add something to these people that would help them see just what and how the feeds were formulated and manufactured, but I finally came to the conclusion with this last batch that no matter what I tried to do for them it was being completely regarded as poppy cock. Even to the extent that I was just a representative of the big, bad commercial companies when we all are surrounded with visual evidence of how well the commercial kibbles have performed for probably 99% of our sporting and working dogs.

I, like Slistoe and several others tried but were met with the opinion that what ever the raw crowd was doing was just common sense that really didn't need to be proved to any of us. And even though we pretty much agreed that everyone is welcome to feed what they wanted, we drew the line when they tried to tell us all that what they were doing was the only way to feed if we really cared about our dogs and their well being.

Now Ezzy, when have I ever said anything negative about the performance of dogs on kibble?

Hopefully this Vet authorized website will better explain what we have been saying but I am betting we won't see that result. At least we tried and hopefully presented the evidence to our other members that 99% of dog owners can't be wrong. Can't remember who used that in there advertising but it seems to fit very well right here.

Ezzy

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:37 pm

displaced_texan wrote:Probably the most intelligent paragraph in this entire thread. My issue isn't with feeding raw, it the implication that I'm doing my dogs a disservice by not feeding raw.

My issue isn't with feeding kibble, it is the implication that I'm doing my dogs a disservice by not feeding kibble.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:56 pm

I think you need to reread your posts in this thread walkos......

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:10 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I think you need to reread your posts in this thread walkos......

Amen!!!!

Charlie

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:14 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I think you need to reread your posts in this thread walkos......

Another vote for this.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:50 am

A good way to add fat to kibble is by adding oil to the food. Vegetable oil, olive oil (my choice), Coconut oil, etc. I started adding a little oil to the dogs food about a month before Grouse season opened this year. It has helped this season so far, but my hard keeper dropped the weight he put on pretty fast. He is looking better than he was last year at this time though. High calorie balanced kibble and extra fat is simple and works for my dogs.

Other than oil, I may add hamburger, or beef liver, raw eggs, to the food once or twice a week after a long hunt. More of a treat for a good day's work than for sustenance. Satin Balls are expensive and i'd rather make a meatloaf with those ingredients

. The dogs like the additions to the food, but they scarf the kibble down plain as well. So I do and agree with adding a little bit of stuff to kibble now and then, but see no reason to feed 100% raw when quality kibble is so easy to find and use. I watch my dogs and they tell me if they need more, less, or different food. I really can't tell if they need a raw diet since they usually look great and perform very well from the kibble they eat.

Green tripe is good stuff. I can usually get it cheap from the local butchers, or free when we have a steer butchered. Other than for teeth I do not see a benefit provided that my dogs digestive system is working properly.

Spending over a year trying to figure out what was causing my setter pup to be "Loose" I learned a lot about food and dog digestive tracts. Turned out he had a sensitivity to poultry. So of course you Raw Feeders are gonna tell me I should have gone with a Raw Beef/Pork diet. Thing is, I was working closely with my vet on the issue and I was told that going Raw would not be a good thing. Not only would it have been hard to balance and prepare, it may have caused other issues to turn up. So Kibble with a very few ingredients made by a quality company is what we went with. Much easier to isolate the problem with less ingredients. We found that poultry was the issue. it's not easy to find a quality kibble without chicken meal or other poultry. Thankfully the dog has outgrown or adjusted in some way where poultry no longer affects him like it used to. Or it could be that cheap crappy kibble I use with Byproducts.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:49 am

displaced_texan wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:I think you need to reread your posts in this thread walkos......
Another vote for this.

Something we can agree with, it was late when I posted that.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:20 am

SCT wrote:I do feed them some raw chicken fat but have to be careful because just a bit too much gives them the runs. Maybe I need to start them off on a small but consistent dose of it and raise the amount as they better tolerate it. I wouldn't have thought they could handle 6 cups of EA but they are burning through it. The green tripe does intrigue me, but it is not cheap and like slistoe said, it's fat that they really need. There are 1000 diets out there for weight loss in dogs, but I can't find anything talking about putting weight on.

This may sound weird, but I've had some success adding weight to them by adding a slice of bread to their daily meal. Hope this won't mess them up.

Steve

My skinny dogs can pick up a few pounds within a couple weeks by feeding them a partial second meal daily of EA, maybe 2/3 of their regular evening meal. They also like a slice or two of bread with butter, coconut oil, bacon grease, peanut butter, or whatever fat's handy in the cupboard. It's an easy snack you can give several times a day. My old guy has never held weight and his bread snacks keep him from being skeletal

After trial season my young dog was a few pounds lighter than i like and the little bit extra EA plus the 'sandwiches' put a couple pounds on him quickly.

Be careful if you give 'em peanut butter, don't glop on too much as it tends to glue their tongues to the roof of their mouths and their lips to their teeth

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:33 am

You can try coconut fat if you wanna ad fat. The advantage to it is that is doesn't require pancreatic enzymes to digest so it probably won't give the runs if you use it on and off. It does bring up some nice shine to the coat too.

Green Tripe is hard to find sometimes, but if you live anywhere near a ranch or farm that does a slaughter they will gladly give it to you.

Its easy to get by me in 10lb frozen tubes but its pricey.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:48 am

Angus wrote:A good way to add fat to kibble is by adding oil to the food. Vegetable oil, olive oil (my choice), Coconut oil, etc. I started adding a little oil to the dogs food about a month before Grouse season opened this year. It has helped this season so far, but my hard keeper dropped the weight he put on pretty fast. He is looking better than he was last year at this time though. High calorie balanced kibble and extra fat is simple and works for my dogs.

Other than oil, I may add hamburger, or beef liver, raw eggs, to the food once or twice a week after a long hunt. More of a treat for a good day's work than for sustenance. Satin Balls are expensive and i'd rather make a meatloaf with those ingredients . The dogs like the additions to the food, but they scarf the kibble down plain as well. So I do and agree with adding a little bit of stuff to kibble now and then, but see no reason to feed 100% raw when quality kibble is so easy to find and use. I watch my dogs and they tell me if they need more, less, or different food. I really can't tell if they need a raw diet since they usually look great and perform very well from the kibble they eat.

Green tripe is good stuff. I can usually get it cheap from the local butchers, or free when we have a steer butchered. Other than for teeth I do not see a benefit provided that my dogs digestive system is working properly.

Spending over a year trying to figure out what was causing my setter pup to be "Loose" I learned a lot about food and dog digestive tracts. Turned out he had a sensitivity to poultry. So of course you Raw Feeders are gonna tell me I should have gone with a Raw Beef/Pork diet. Thing is, I was working closely with my vet on the issue and I was told that going Raw would not be a good thing. Not only would it have been hard to balance and prepare, it may have caused other issues to turn up. So Kibble with a very few ingredients made by a quality company is what we went with. Much easier to isolate the problem with less ingredients. We found that poultry was the issue. it's not easy to find a quality kibble without chicken meal or other poultry. Thankfully the dog has outgrown or adjusted in some way where poultry no longer affects him like it used to. Or it could be that cheap crappy kibble I use with Byproducts.

I appreciate your honesty and I have heard that even those who feed 100% raw sometimes notice those same sensitivities when feeding a raw food especially for a long period. I personally never feed the same meat product more then 3 or 4 days simply because different meat sources provide different nutrients. I also make sure almost every meal contains bones, muscle meat, fat and a small amount of organ meat. Raw eggs with shell ground only brown, at least 2 times per week, yogert, vegtable oil, cheerios and some fruit and veggies in small amounts 3 times per week. I'm working on getting some green tripe into his diet but It's not easy to find in my area. Sometimes I will mix small amounts of table scraps in also. But I feed very little on average because I want it that way. There is something that confuses me about what you write here though, and it pertains to all of the others who have commented above, and I am not looking for an argument, but you and most of the others especially Steve who presented the article above seem to have a big problem with raw feeders and the danger in trying to provide proper balance to their feeding style. Yet you and the others are fine adding your own mix of raw and kibble even though you all agree with Ezzy that commercial dog food "kibble" is already completely balanced. How do you know that by adding things to your dogs kibble diet you are not throwing their nutritional balance off? It sounds like your dogs are doing fine so perhaps the word complete or perfect balance is a bit over rated. It also sounds like common sense goes a long way when caring for your dogs nutritional needs. The only recommendation I can give to someone who feeds raw and is worried about balance is use a vet that supports feeding raw, or at least have a nutritional blood test done once or twice a year from your vet.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:07 am

I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:14 am

I do not believe that all kibble is balanced or all kibble companies use quality ingredients. Basically, I feel a quality kibble, made by a quality company, using quality ingredients, provides my dogs with everything they need to be healthy and happy. Giving a little extra of things may throw off the balance a little, but living with working dogs for about all of my life, a little extra fat and protein help when they are working hard. I increase the kibble amounts as well to add calories. The balance comes in with the vitamins and macro nutrients that I cannot calculate properly in my brain, nor do I have the equipment to do so.

I would have no idea if my dog is getting what he needs by mixing blueberries, cranberries, bananas, chicken, oats, tripe, eggs, etc all in a bowl and dropping in front of them. Proteins are funny, how they need to be mixed, and used by the body. The difference in Amino acids from plant to meat based proteins, etc... I trust that all of the work is already done for me in that bowl of kibble. A couple additions to that kibble isn't going to change much when the additions are mostly water anyhow.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:39 pm

Shags, I will try a little butter on the bread I give, the bread alone seems to help a little. I've tried other helpings of EA at different times and the stools start to loosen. I've found if I am careful to watch when the looseness shows up, I can get their nighttime portion as high as possible without causing looseness to the stool.

Walkos5, I appreciate you posting the ingredients of raw you feed. I mix a limited amount of raw with my kibble because I believe the raw meat, bone, fat, skin, and even feathers is good for them. I could be wrong but they sure love it. But, I also know I probably have all bases covered by giving them their daily portions of commercial dog food. One of my best friends is a veterinarian, and even though he is not a nutritionist, he has a decent knowledge of what's good for dogs. He has hunting dogs like me and he feeds kibble, plus eggs (about every day from his own chickens, chukars and pheasants when they are laying), and he's a falconer and gives the games bird scraps to his dogs in the field which would consist of guts, legs, head, skin and feathers maybe 3 times a week. He also gives them frozen chunks of venison that he kills. It's possible he gives more raw than kibble depending on the day or season.

I was very disappointed that Dr. Jennifer Larsen would NOT shed any light whatsoever, but I do understand that, especially after her study, she didn't want any liability from her information. What would be worth having is a breakdown of every item in the diets she deemed quality, with an analysis of each natural substance that was included in those diets as well as what affect/impact/benefit each ingredient would give. And, a guide on quantities. I think a book written by her and her colleagues would sell very well.

Another reason I like to put some chicken bones in the mix is for their teeth. Keeps them clean. One thing my DVM friend has told me is a calcium/phosphorous balance is imperative, especially long term. That alone keeps me from just feeding raw and is another reason to have specific quantitative analysis on each ingredient. A lot of the raw food diet sellers mostly have options for pets with some sort of disease, that's great and it shows that raw foods are a big help in certain situations. But, I want a couple recipes for my healthy pointers. I would spend 2-4 times more on their food if I was assured it would prolong their healthy life. But if I'm going to the expense, I need some proof. Sure wish I could find something more scientific to go by.

Steve

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:08 pm

Steve,

Maybe you're overthinking the diet. You're feeding a kibble that they're doing well on, supplementing with raw which they probably like and which at best is great for them and at the very least isn't hurting them, you're keeping their teeth clean as well.

NOTHING you can feed or supplement will assure you of extending your dogs' healthy life. You can only do the best you can to feed them well, to vet them when they need it, and to keep them clean and dry. Beyond that, you can't control accidents, injuries, or catastrophic disease. Some of the most valuable dogs in the pointing dog world are either washed up or dead before they reach ten years despite the best of care. Other dogs are tottering around beyond age 15. It's so often the luck of the draw on things pertaining to health which are entirely out of our hands.

Of course all of us want happy useful lives for our dogs for as long as possible. Sometimes we simply have to give it up, do the best we can with what we have, and not let fretting over things interfere with our enjoyment of our dogs.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:28 pm

slistoe wrote:I am not sure you really understand the problem with "balance" that the vet world is seeing from raw, but that is OK.
What is the purpose of the cheerios in your dogs diet and why make specific mention that the eggs are brown?

Whose vet world yours or mine, because there are more vets that seem to be opening up about the lack of nutrition that commercial diets provide and the host of health problems that exist with feeding strict kibble diets. Cheerios in small amounts for carbs. Brown eggs because I like them!