Member's Mark Exceed Recall

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:46 pm

Ezzy,

If the pet food companies were subject to the 1990 law on food labelling, "complete and balanced" would not be allowed on the bag.

You really think that adding fresh meat, some eggs, yogurt and certain fresh veggies to kibble is that horrible?

Oh come on.....I dont really think you believe that.

i

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote:None as we all found out when it was discovered by the very checks I just described. I never said something couldn't happen and we all know it can with a company or in our own homes. That is the reason there are so many requirements that are in place and so many checks to insure that products listed for sale must meet before you can get the licence to start production and they continue as long as you remain in business. Will there be things slip through, yes but the have almost always been caught before widespread damage has been done.

Ezzy

So autopsies on dead dogs is the industry standard for quality control? Heaven forbid they actually check before they have a pile of dead dogs. Knowing that Glaxosmithkline had their asses handed to them by two highschool girls in a science fair experiment doesn't give me confidence in any government regulation, or oversight. Your faith in the system is terribly misguided.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:10 pm

Your faith in the system is terribly misguided.brdhntr

Don't think so and I have the proof it works when you look at the history of our country. I agree it could be better but it is the best in the world and we have the results to prove it. When I get so jaded that I think everyone is out to get me and people can't be trusted till they prove otherwise it will be time to hang it all up.

Ezzy

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Your faith in the system is terribly misguided.brdhntr
Don't think so and I have the proof it works when you look at the history of our country. I agree it could be better but it is the best in the world and we have the results to prove it. When I get so jaded that I think everyone is out to get me and people can't be trusted till they prove otherwise it will be time to hang it all up.

Ezzy

My proof is a pile of dead dogs killed by ingredient purchases from China a country otherwise know for quality products. We know from their high standard of living that their food surplus is off the greatest quality, that it shouldn't be necessary to verify it as being safe. You would have thought they would have promoted their product as containing high quality Chines imported ingredients, kind of like German engineering.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:38 pm

[quote="brdhntr My proof is a pile of dead dogs killed by ingredient purchases from China a country otherwise know for quality products. We know from their high standard of living that their food surplus is off the greatest quality, that it shouldn't be necessary to verify it as being safe. You would have thought they would have promoted their product as containing high quality Chines imported ingredients, kind of like German engineering.[/quote]

Dude what's your deal? And I am serious, is it you just get tired of hearing how great kibble is opposed to raw? do you just hate Purina feeds or the lies there telling us all, do you just get tired of the bull sh*t people are saying about commercial dog food, did you lose a dog to the gluten scare a while back? What gives? I could give a rats a@@ if you feed raw and your dogs are doing great, does not bother me any...good for you and your dogs but why the whole commercial feed bashing every freaking time....serious question...do you just hate em or what....

Just Curious,
Chip

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:04 pm

Hey Chip, Very entertaining post! Now can we just get you to go to a bunch of these "town hall" meetings regarding health care? I have had dogs for 35 years and based on recommendations of two vet's, one in north Texas and one in south Texas, I have always fed what I believe to be a somewhat "high grade" commercial dog food. They have done extremely well. Have had two Brittany's in the past that lived to be 16. Two other observations. Based on the pictures on your web site...You've got some great looking dogs..and (2) love the American flag on your site.

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:28 pm

Well Chip, my issue is with apologist who refuse to acknowledge the massive shortcomings of the industry. For Ezzy to come on here and blow smoke about the great checks and balances of the dog food industry is more than I am willing to let slide. Acting like they couldn't possibly do any better of a job is nothing short of laughable. I stated a simple example of an easily foreseeable issue that proves otherwise. I'm also sure that human grade food and drugs are subject to greater scrutiny than the largely self regulated dog food industry, but we still see examples like the highschool girls busting them in a science fair experiment. Hardly FDA level oversight.

I am not against feeding dry dog food, but the more I learn, the more certain I am that there is a minority of quality foods available. I do feed Raw, and I do feed manufactured dog food, I also let my kid eat ramen noodles, and easy mac, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that is a complete healthy diet. He most likely would survive on it.

It's unfortunate that my position offends you so much, but why don't you tell me where I am wrong instead of posting a sarcastic response to my position on the issue?

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:52 pm

First off lets get one thing right I never said anything about your response being wrong so lets set that straight.......And I asked you a series of questions on what ticks you off on these food topics, and it has been more than one, pretty simple. So to me you answered the question, your not gonna sit back and listen to someones bull about what they think to be true on dog food.......whether it's right or wrong ,there opinion....is that right? My dad worked for Purina for 26 years in the mixing mill, believe me I know what goes into it, and how its mixed....don't agree with all of it...none the less it is what it is...don't like the feed dont feed it, and you know what I am ok with it, but the whole ripping on every dog food company gets old.......raw diet has many good qualities, but you know as well as I do that for someone to feed raw, you gotta know what your doing, an occasional chicken thigh or beef heart alone is not gonna do it, there's a little more to it than that, not including the time to prepare it....
I am not an apologist....and everything has some shortcoming, to what degree is different....as for the easily forseeable issue? I am gonna ask again was it the gluten scare form the import from China?....Everyone knows we were duped into that, our fault....China got one over on us...shame on us...next question?....I feed my kid mac and cheese and ramen noodles as well...and I have said this before and I will say it again...we the consuming public for the most part are more consumed with what we are feeding our dogs that if we were to worry more about what the heck we were eating we would not have a country overweight and obese. I am not feeding Purina...and my father never did either....curious as to why?
Sarcastic? Call it what you want, I am good with it, just tired of the whole bashing dog food crap...feed what ever the heck you want and, whatever the heck your dog does good on do your own research and figure "bleep" out...

Chip

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:38 pm

lvrgsp wrote:First off lets get one thing right I never said anything about your response being wrong so lets set that straight.......And I asked you a series of questions on what ticks you off on these food topics, and it has been more than one, pretty simple. So to me you answered the question, your not gonna sit back and listen to someones bull about what they think to be true on dog food.......whether it's right or wrong ,there opinion....is that right? My dad worked for Purina for 26 years in the mixing mill, believe me I know what goes into it, and how its mixed....don't agree with all of it...none the less it is what it is...don't like the feed dont feed it, and you know what I am ok with it, but the whole ripping on every dog food company gets old.......raw diet has many good qualities, but you know as well as I do that for someone to feed raw, you gotta know what your doing, an occasional chicken thigh or beef heart alone is not gonna do it, there's a little more to it than that, not including the time to prepare it....
I am not an apologist....and everything has some shortcoming, to what degree is different....as for the easily forseeable issue? I am gonna ask again was it the gluten scare form the import from China?....Everyone knows we were duped into that, our fault....China got one over on us...shame on us...next question?....I feed my kid mac and cheese and ramen noodles as well...and I have said this before and I will say it again...we the consuming public for the most part are more consumed with what we are feeding our dogs that if we were to worry more about what the heck we were eating we would not have a country overweight and obese. I am not feeding Purina...and my father never did either....curious as to why?
Sarcastic? Call it what you want, I am good with it, just tired of the whole bashing dog food crap...feed what ever the heck you want and, whatever the heck your dog does good on do your own research and figure "bleep" out...

Chip

I am not willing to let you put words in my mouth, "riping every dog food company" only shows your tunnel vision on the issue. There are quality dog food manufactures, but there are also deceptive companies out there. When I feel a company is deceptive I share my opinion, that's what we do here. Now you feel China got one over on us, but I look at as the manufacturer failing to get one over on us. Do you think if they had disclosed the fact they were using Chines ingredient that their sales would have increased or decreased on those products. I wasn't affected by this issue, but I recognise it as an indicator of how they do business. Am I foolish for thinking that way? So your "tired of the whole bashing dog food crap",and I'm tired of their deceptive practices, so why does me stating my opinion disturb you so much more than others stating theirs? I'm going to suggest you really just don't like my position, and would rather I was silenced than have these issues discussed. Tell me where I'm wrong, tell me where you disagree, but don't tell me it offends you that I share my positions and reasoning on an open forum under the topics of health and nutrition.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:46 am

brdhntr wrote:
lvrgsp wrote:First off lets get one thing right I never said anything about your response being wrong so lets set that straight.......And I asked you a series of questions on what ticks you off on these food topics, and it has been more than one, pretty simple. So to me you answered the question, your not gonna sit back and listen to someones bull about what they think to be true on dog food.......whether it's right or wrong ,there opinion....is that right? My dad worked for Purina for 26 years in the mixing mill, believe me I know what goes into it, and how its mixed....don't agree with all of it...none the less it is what it is...don't like the feed dont feed it, and you know what I am ok with it, but the whole ripping on every dog food company gets old.......raw diet has many good qualities, but you know as well as I do that for someone to feed raw, you gotta know what your doing, an occasional chicken thigh or beef heart alone is not gonna do it, there's a little more to it than that, not including the time to prepare it....
I am not an apologist....and everything has some shortcoming, to what degree is different....as for the easily forseeable issue? I am gonna ask again was it the gluten scare form the import from China?....Everyone knows we were duped into that, our fault....China got one over on us...shame on us...next question?....I feed my kid mac and cheese and ramen noodles as well...and I have said this before and I will say it again...we the consuming public for the most part are more consumed with what we are feeding our dogs that if we were to worry more about what the heck we were eating we would not have a country overweight and obese. I am not feeding Purina...and my father never did either....curious as to why?
Sarcastic? Call it what you want, I am good with it, just tired of the whole bashing dog food crap...feed what ever the heck you want and, whatever the heck your dog does good on do your own research and figure "bleep" out...

Chip
I am not willing to let you put words in my mouth, "riping every dog food company" only shows your tunnel vision on the issue. There are quality dog food manufactures, but there are also deceptive companies out there. When I feel a company is deceptive I share my opinion, that's what we do here. Now you feel China got one over on us, but I look at as the manufacturer failing to get one over on us. Do you think if they had disclosed the fact they were using Chines ingredient that their sales would have increased or decreased on those products. I wasn't affected by this issue, but I recognise it as an indicator of how they do business. Am I foolish for thinking that way? So your "tired of the whole bashing dog food crap",and I'm tired of their deceptive practices, so why does me stating my opinion disturb you so much more than others stating theirs? I'm going to suggest you really just don't like my position, and would rather I was silenced than have these issues discussed. Tell me where I'm wrong, tell me where you disagree, but don't tell me it offends you that I share my positions and reasoning on an open forum under the topics of health and nutrition.

You know I never said you were wrong about anything...that's the second time now I have said that....your position does not bother me. And I'll ask a third time what ingredients your talking about....Gluten? The malamine that was brought over here from China in more than one food source, including dog food....That product? I am prretty sure it came over in cereal products as well as other human grade food items. You obviously do not like Purina, at least that's my opinion, or let me rephrase that, you don't care for the way Purina and some food companies package or market there product? I'll try not to put any more words in your mouth...If you could give me a list of your deceptive food manufactureres, I would appreciate that, it would save me the time from trying there products.....
You know Bosco and I had the opportunity to talk and I think we both agree we are pretty much on the same page here, and I think you would find that really you and I are not all that far off from what we bellieve....

Enjoy your day,
Chip

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:51 am

Hey Chip,

I'm "curious as to why" you or your father didn't feed Purina?

Also, are you referring to any and all dog kibble made by Purina or specifically Purina Dog Chow, Pro Plan, or some of the other name brands such as Purina One, Beneful, etc.....???

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:22 am

brdhntr wrote:Well Chip, my issue is with apologist who refuse to acknowledge the massive shortcomings of the industry. For Ezzy to come on here and blow smoke about the great checks and balances of the dog food industry is more than I am willing to let slide. Acting like they couldn't possibly do any better of a job is nothing short of laughable. I stated a simple example of an easily foreseeable issue that proves otherwise. I'm also sure that human grade food and drugs are subject to greater scrutiny than the largely self regulated dog food industry, but we still see examples like the highschool girls busting them in a science fair experiment. Hardly FDA level oversight.

I am not against feeding dry dog food, but the more I learn, the more certain I am that there is a minority of quality foods available. I do feed Raw, and I do feed manufactured dog food, I also let my kid eat ramen noodles, and easy mac, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that is a complete healthy diet. He most likely would survive on it.

It's unfortunate that my position offends you so much, but why don't you tell me where I am wrong instead of posting a sarcastic response to my position on the issue?

Don't believe I blew any smoke but rather just tried to tell you what actually happens. I too made the comment things could be better but they are pretty darn good right now. The same people inspect and regulate the feed industry as inspect the cosmetic industry, the drug industry, the raw feed as well as dryfeed industry, and the hospital labs, many times going to or coming from one of them in the same day they would be in the feed mill. I am not just telling you my opinion but reiterating what actually happened over the years.

I have no quarrel with what you like to feed but I too want to see the old wife's tales and the many misconseptions cleared up and I will continue to try for those who have never been involved in the whole process.

Good luck,

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:51 am

If you want to rely on US Government regulation thats fine but please check if the food you buy is certified for export to the European Union, so called Aphis EU Certification. It is not a guaranty but its better than nothing.

Aphis EU certified foods are in the minority and even those that are certified, may not be the right one for you.

I could agree with Brdhntr more about advertising and general oversite, althought many states have very good oversite of the industry, like California.

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the big food companies advertise their products honestly. A statement like that would be laughable.

As for commercial dog foods, they have a place, and a place in my house, but they can't be relied on.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:12 am

mcbosco wrote:If you want to rely on US Government regulation thats fine but please check if the food you buy is certified for export to the European Union, so called Aphis EU Certification. It is not a guaranty but its better than nothing.

Aphis EU certified foods are in the minority and even those that are certified, may not be the right one for you.

I could agree with Brdhntr more about advertising and general oversite, althought many states have very good oversite of the industry, like California.

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that the big food companies advertise their products honestly. A statement like that would be laughable.

As for commercial dog foods, they have a place, and a place in my house, but they can't be relied on.

Companies that don't export, which is practically all of them do not solict a certification from the European Union and has little to do with the quality of the feed. And yes, I can say they advertise hionestly. But I am making the distinction between honestly and completely. All companies that make any product for sale advertises the points they feel will sell their product and not the shortcomings, but what they advertise is correct. But I agree there are points in a lot of ads that are laughable and there are a lot of personal opinions that can be also if that is what you want to do.

I am curious though about your opinion that commercial food can't be relied on. Seems strange when we all know 99% of all dogs are fed nothing else and the people owning those dog do rely on the food they buy.

Dog food and dog food companies sure aren't perfect but it is what they say it is. Its dog food that supplies all of the nutrients that a dog needs to perform and live healthier than ever before plus it provides a convient manner to provide all of that nutrition to you dog. And that is what people want.

Ezzy

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:10 pm

nanney1 wrote:Hey Chip,

I'm "curious as to why" you or your father didn't feed Purina?

Also, are you referring to any and all dog kibble made by Purina or specifically Purina Dog Chow, Pro Plan, or some of the other name brands such as Purina One, Beneful, etc.....???

For Dad it was real easy we could get Wayne feeds cheaper, even with him working in the mill....he liked there mix a little better to....
I have fed Purina proplan recently within the last year, up until then I fed Diamond, Black Gold, Hi Standard, Eukanuba.....Pro plan made a formula change I did not care for...dogs did just fine on it no problems at all, performed well I fed just a touch more than some others to keep weight on one of my dogs....I have never fed any other Purina product to my dogs...I feel there are other feeds out there that do just as good or better for the same price or cheaper...That being said Purina also sponsors a ton of sporting dog events, and IN MY OPINION, MY OPINION ONLY they have one of the leading resarch facilities in the US Actually I liked the Diamond naturals line alot it just was not enough to keep weight on when working hard, and I had some softer stools with it at times....but if I mixed PP with Diamond Extreme athlete at a 2:1 ratio it worked very well for me....all of my dogs get supplements as well everyday.....as well as some raw beef or venison on occasion with there regular feed......
JMO,
Chip

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:08 am

try raw egg yolks when you are training, very dense and complete and cheap.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:15 am

whatever happened to the Wayne company? I remember Wayne Puppy O's as a kid.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:14 pm

Not sure Sal, I have not seen Wayne dog food for quite sometime....I think Dad said they got bought out by Royal Canin maybe? About the same time Kasco got bought up...I saw more of there AG feed than anything.....

Chip

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:13 pm

Wayne is still available but have no idea who owns them now. I never heard of them changing hands but that doesn't mean they haven't. I think they still make their Wayne feed plus a premium feed under a different name.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:48 am

Greg Jennings wrote:No interruption in Exceed here so far. I've got to drop by Sam's for people food. Will check and report back.

My Sam's no longer has Exceed. Till they get it back, I'm following Buckeye_V and going Native. It's a combination of the food and ease of access.

Greg J.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:31 am

I wish we had that down here. Steve Ries said he was working on it.

fordman · Post by **fordman** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:50 am

Native 3 did not work out for me dogs lost weight had to feed alot more than proplan lots of stool, trying Enhance this time.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:56 am

You guys should give Robert Downey at Annamaet a call about performance kibbles. Even if you never buy it, he can give you some good information about these juiced up kibbles.

It is a PA based company, so I see it fed here extensively always with glowing reviews.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:07 am

I also had some issues with Native (and I was having it shipped from Kansas City). Went back to Eukanuba and am very satisfied. (Don't know if Euk is considered by some as a "juiced up kibble"...and really don't care)

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:12 am

mcbosco wrote:You guys should give Robert Downey at Annamaet a call about performance kibbles. Even if you never buy it, he can give you some good information about these juiced up kibbles.

It is a PA based company, so I see it fed here extensively always with glowing reviews.

I take this as a subtle way of saying this guy agrees with you. Don't think most of the people on this board really need dog food explained to them. They all are telling you that they can tell when their dog is doing well and when it isn't.

JMO

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:58 am

ezzy, is that a statement of fact or just your opinion?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:58 am

mcbosco wrote:ezzy, is that a statement of fact or just your opinion?

McBosco,
Tell you what. If your idea of diet is so much better, your dog should perform that much better. When you win a national-level stake, I'll pay attention. Till then, it's "where's the beef".

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:50 am

that was a helpful suggestion, Downey worked for many years at U of Penn on working dog nutrition and you can get him on the phone pretty much any day...

perhaps it didn't come across that way, sorry

i have a love for knowledge, my mistake

lking · Post by **lking** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:02 pm

Hate to diverge back to the topic at hand, but no Exceed at Sam's in Appleton for the past 3 weeks. Can't get an answer as to the future of it.

Has anyone been given a concrete answer as to the future of Exceed?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:46 pm

here in reno nevada the sams we were just in had No exceed of any kind on the shelves....

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:57 pm

I remember seeing a food at Wal-Mart, I think it was called Maximum Nutrition? Is that the same you think as the Members Mark Exceed, just different in name? I think if you have an Agway or Tractor Supply in your area you should find something comparable.

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:26 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
mcbosco wrote:ezzy, is that a statement of fact or just your opinion?
McBosco,
Tell you what. If your idea of diet is so much better, your dog should perform that much better. When you win a national-level stake, I'll pay attention. Till then, it's "where's the beef".

Look how many records in Baseball have been broken by players using steroids, therefore we can conclude steroids are good for you.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:44 pm

brdhntr wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
mcbosco wrote:ezzy, is that a statement of fact or just your opinion?
McBosco,
Tell you what. If your idea of diet is so much better, your dog should perform that much better. When you win a national-level stake, I'll pay attention. Till then, it's "where's the beef".

Look how many records in Baseball have been broken by players using steroids, therefore we can conclude steroids are good for you.

Or, perhaps we should conclude that steriods improve performance of power hitters in baseball.

My argument is that a higher-priced food has to show some benefit. Show me just one independent, refereed study published in an accepted journal of veterinary medicine that shows an unambiguous advantage to Abady, etc. over Arkat, Eukanuba, Diamond, Pro-Plan, etc and I'll gladly start feeding it. Till then "Where's The Beef?"

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:17 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:

My argument is that a higher-priced food has to show some benefit. Show me just one independent, refereed study published in an accepted journal of veterinary medicine that shows an unambiguous advantage to Abady, etc. over Arkat, Eukanuba, Diamond, Pro-Plan, etc and I'll gladly start feeding it. Till then "Where's The Beef?"[/quote][/quote]

Looks more like you said because Mcbosco has no major field trial wins his opinion has no merit.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:33 pm

greg, you seem like a nice guy, a very nice guy but if you had my experience from the business end of things you wouldn't feed any kibble or dry except for about half a dozen brands...I also have 30 years experience with animals, so my lack of hunting experience shouldn't concern you, although that shaggy beast in the avatar is pretty darn good. The pet food industry is about the least ethical business in the US.

Most of those so called 30/20's are not even functionally close, that's why I mentioned Annamaet. I doubt you would switch if you ever tried it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:01 pm

mcbosco wrote:greg, you seem like a nice guy, a very nice guy but if you had my experience from the business end of things you wouldn't feed any kibble or dry except for about half a dozen brands...I also have 30 years experience with animals, so my lack of hunting experience shouldn't concern you, although that shaggy beast in the avatar is pretty darn good. The pet food industry is about the least ethical business in the US.

Most of those so called 30/20's are not even functionally close, that's why I mentioned Annamaet. I doubt you would switch if you ever tried it.

Your rants do not in any way offer us any proof of your position. You have never even suggested who or where these feeding test were done. Till you can give us some research to back up your claims I think it would be prudent to let everyone get back to some reasonable posts.

Show us the facts or get off the subject. Enough is enough.

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:52 pm

I have a question about protein. I had read something interesting on the Orijen website, and the other Acana. When you look at the calories under the Adult Feed, it mentions 25% of the calorie distribution comes from fruits and vegetable?

I had also noticed, Acana mentions in their ingredients and analysis (pdf file), 32% of the calorie distribution is from fruit and vegetables and steel-cut oats.

Does that mean anything? Would it have any impact on protein numbers or doesn't it make a difference?

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:40 pm

Calories would not impact protein. I think all they are trying to tell you is where the calories are coming from and in their case it looks like they are saying 32% are fron vegetable source. I am not sure why this is important since we know carbs and fats are where most of the calories are while the animal portion provides most of the protein. I think they would have to consider the fat in whichever area it is coming from though. If its animal fat or vegetable oil would make the difference.
Most of the calories from the fruit is probably sugar calories that are not the best for longtime use. Interesting stat though and does make me wonder what purpose that info has that their customers need or more likely want to know.

Ezzy

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:33 am

claybuster_aa wrote:I have a question about protein. I had read something interesting on the Orijen website, and the other Acana. When you look at the calories under the Adult Feed, it mentions 25% of the calorie distribution comes from fruits and vegetable?

I had also noticed, Acana mentions in their ingredients and analysis (pdf file), 32% of the calorie distribution is from fruit and vegetables and steel-cut oats.

Does that mean anything? Would it have any impact on protein numbers or doesn't it make a difference?

I think this is important because we know vegetable proteins are not complete, they miss certain amino acids. Knowing that a majority of calories comes from animal sources tells you that you are feeding complete proteins. To me it also gives a reasonable assurance that there is no deceptive ingredient splitting going on.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:12 am

You would never get that level of disclosure from the big consumer products pet food companies, simply because it would be too easy to see the contribution of grain and grain derivatives to overall protein and calories. The usual response to that question is that it doesn't matter but I would rather make that decision.

The irony is that if grains were so good and people really wanted grain-based foods, why do the major companies go to so much trouble and spend so much money trying to convince you the food is filled with meat protein?

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:26 am

mcbosco wrote:why do the major companies go to so much trouble and spend so much money trying to convince you the food is filled with meat protein?

Because there are people like you out there. I was involved in the pet food retail business back when this whole thing started. A company called Nutro ran a big promotion (real chicken, with pictures of plump chickens on the bag) and people bought into it. The next big fad was Lamb and Rice because they were able to cite a couple of cases where dogs had an allergy to corn products. Play on peoples fears and emotions with half truths and you can get more money out of them. Pretty soon Eukanuba and ProPlan were adjusting their formula/labelling because of consumer demand in the marketing game. In the past 20 years things have escalated as disposable incomes have increased and marketing psychologists have become better at reducing critical thinking.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:14 am

mcbosco wrote:You would never get that level of disclosure from the big consumer products pet food companies, simply because it would be too easy to see the contribution of grain and grain derivatives to overall protein and calories. The usual response to that question is that it doesn't matter but I would rather make that decision.

The irony is that if grains were so good and people really wanted grain-based foods, why do the major companies go to so much trouble and spend so much money trying to convince you the food is filled with meat protein?

They try to convince you of that because it is what is best for a dog, because that is what people want to see and hear, and because it is true. I hope everyone understands when a company markets their products that they work very hard at telling you how their product will make your life better and also what you want to hear. This applies to every company and not just selected ones. I kind of remember doing the same thing years ago when I was dating. Think they call it putting your best foot fotward. And it results in being successful if enough people buy into it.

And strange as it will seem to some of you, grain and vegetable matter is important to many of us and our dogs. There is no such thing as a healthy dog that eats only meat, now or in the distant past. They need a combination to provide all of the nutrition that is needed for good health, That is why Abady and the other high priced speciality dog foods advertise they add vegetable matter to their food. It always seems funny to me that some people think that carrots, apples, greenbeans are good but corn, beets, or beans that the pod has dried on are bad. Makes me wonder why all of the great animal nutritionist don't have a degree and don't work for the feed companies. Makes me wonder why greenbeans are good but mature ones are bad. Makes me wonder why beets are good till we take the sugar that the dog doesn't need out and then they are bad. Makes me wonder why corn is good but if we take the sugar and some of the starch out it is bad. Makes me wonder why all of the the people that really know how I and my dog should eat and live are either in Washington DC or on the internet and not getting rich and famous raising and training better dogs than us uneducated fools. And it sure makes me wonder why raw is wonderful but cooked in anyway is bad but then we cook everything we eat.

I wonder,

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:55 am

ezzy333 wrote:
They need a combination to provide all of the nutrition that is needed for good health, That is why Abady and the other high priced speciality dog foods advertise they add vegetable matter to their food. It always seems funny to me that some people think that carrots, apples, greenbeans are good but corn, beets, or beans that the pod has dried on are bad.
Ezzy

Abady does that...advertise they add vegetable matter????? I didn't know.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:08 am

I will redo that. I have never seen them advertise but rather just what you guys on here say about it. It sounds like a good feed and if my dogs ever showed a need to go to that type of a food I would try it.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:15 am

mcbosco wrote:greg, you seem like a nice guy, a very nice guy but if you had my experience from the business end of things you wouldn't feed any kibble or dry except for about half a dozen brands...I also have 30 years experience with animals, so my lack of hunting experience shouldn't concern you, although that shaggy beast in the avatar is pretty darn good. The pet food industry is about the least ethical business in the US.

Most of those so called 30/20's are not even functionally close, that's why I mentioned Annamaet. I doubt you would switch if you ever tried it.

If you are an expert in the animal nutrition field, then spell it out. Expert testimony has weight.

If you have first-hand knowledge of unethical practices, then spell it out. You might have a good whistle-blower lawsuit possibility...and you could then donate a small part of it to the maintenance of GDF

.

I'm passingly aquainted with the Annamaet folks. I used to use their GlycoCharge extensively and have been a proponent of it here on the boards (search the archives) in certain situations. I have just moved to using a cheaper alternative. I didn't know that they made kibble. I'll check into it. Availability is a big deal here. I've been wanting to try the Arkat feeds, but I'm not going that direction until it's readily available.

If you stick around, you'll find out that I'm about as honest as a person can be and can afford whatever kind of dog food I want to feed. I'm also very competitive. Know the story of Robert Johnson the famous blues man?...if the blues were my thing, he would have had to have raced me to those crossroads.

Again, if you search the archives, you'll also find that I've fed Canidae, Diamond, Flint River Ranch, Evo, Bil-Jac frozen and a couple of others trying to find what works (including is palatable to the dogs), is economical and readily available.

I feed what I feed because:
1. My dogs do very, very well on them
2. I've never had a dog go to the vet for other than injuries (e.g., stick in the eye, one beat up by running into a tree full tilt while chasing a duck, etc.) or required vaccinations. Knocking on wood here. The V's sire passed from cancer at the same age the V is now.

I also supplement what I'm feeding to suit the moment. I find that to work better for us than swapping foods. So, while we're not exactly in the same pew, we're close to being in the same church.

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:26 am

ezzy333 wrote:

Makes me wonder why corn is good but if we take the sugar and some of the starch out it is bad. Makes me wonder why all of the the people that really know how I and my dog should eat and live are either in Washington DC or on the internet and not getting rich and famous raising and training better dogs than us uneducated fools. And it sure makes me wonder why raw is wonderful but cooked in anyway is bad but then we cook everything we eat.

I wonder,

Ezzy

[/quote]

Let me help you with some facts, corn is bad for several reasons:
1) It is composed of sugars (starch is composed of sugars)that are hard on the pancreas to digest, and
2) The digestion of starches and proteins are chemically opposed making complete digestion of both impossible especially in the short digestive tracks of dogs. (Major contributor to bloat, and #2 cause of death in dogs)
3) incomplete digestion of proteins is a major contributor to allergies.
4) cooking meat causes proteins to cross link leading to deficiencies in amino acids.

Now you don't need to wonder anymore.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:37 am

Good explanation but too bad it isn't true.

I do still wonder but at least I know enough to know whats true and what isn't. Didn't spend a lifetime in quality assurance within the feed industry to be so easily misled.

Ezzy

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:10 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Good explanation but too bad it isn't true.

I do still wonder but at least I know enough to know whats true and what isn't. Didn't spend a lifetime in quality assurance within the feed industry to be so easily misled.

Ezzy

How convenient, I'll have to tell my biology, and Chemistry professors they lied to me. If acids don't digest proteins, and alkyds starches, what does? I don't want to tell them they were wrong without being able to provide them with the correct knowledge. Please let me know on the whole cross linking of protein also, I need to get a lot of textbooks revised so as to stop perpetuating this myth. Also can you tell me where amylase is produced in a dog if not in the pancreas?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:34 pm

brdhntr wrote:Let me help you with some facts, corn is bad for several reasons:
1) It is composed of sugars (starch is composed of sugars)that are hard on the pancreas to digest, and
2) The digestion of starches and proteins are chemically opposed making complete digestion of both impossible especially in the short digestive tracks of dogs. (Major contributor to bloat, and #2 cause of death in dogs)
3) incomplete digestion of proteins is a major contributor to allergies.
4) cooking meat causes proteins to cross link leading to deficiencies in amino acids.

Gosh, my dogs and many, many others are fed 100% kibble for months at a time. If they have amino acid deficiences, how is it that they're still not only alive, but *thriving*.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:48 pm

I would suggest you read a few good nutrition books such as Feed and Feeding which is pretty old now but there are many newer ones. They will explain one of the virtues of corn is the easy digestibility plus its ready availability makes it the carb source of choice throughout the world. Rice is also good but it just doesn't have all of the other benefits that corn has such as the fat and protein content. If you want to influence those teachers I would suggest you take them to a field trial and watch the dog perform that are being fed corn or maybe a dog show and see the winners that are fed corn. Or maybe you should have them check the coyote scat or the foxes and you will find it is loaded with the remains of all the vegetable matter they eat in their prefered diet. Look around and then ask yourself how all of this is possible when your books said that you can't feed both protein and carbs when every food they eat are just that and they thrive.

Rather than me do all the work I would suggest you get all of those teachers together and go and visit the dog shows, field trials, and even the dogs out in the field hunting, and realize that 99 out of each hundred are fed in the manner you say that doesn't work while the other one is fed the way you say they need to be and you can't for the life of you tell which dog it is that is fed your way. Then have them tell you why those dogs are just as strong and healthy while being fed corn, cooked meats, vegetable proteins, and many other terrible feeds. And all of this cheaper and a lot less work.

Ezzy