Gun Dog Forum

brad27 wrote:

“Dogs become obese as a result of ingesting too many calories or as a result of a lack of exercise” These are popular claims made by industry. Neither contention is correct because dogs only ingest the amount of food they require to supply the calories they need to fuel their bodily functions. When they have acquired the needed calories they will stop eating. This is a scientific fact. They cannot overeat, even if they gorge themselves one day and don’t eat the next. If they receive less exercise, left to their own devices, they will consume less food and thereby not get fatter because of the reduced exercise.

That's funny. If I road my dog 3 days a week and feed her 2.5 cups a day she stays at a consistent weight. If I feed her 2.5 cups a day and don't road her she gains weight. BTW, she eats all 2.5 cups everyday.
Why does abady give feeding recommdations if the dog won't over eat. Why not just say " just keep a big bowl of food out. The dog will eat when it's hungery.

Ya, and I will tell you something else, I have three shorthairs that I guarantee you will over eat if I don't ration the feed. With that logic, there would never be any over weight or under weight dogs. Scientific fact? Really?

Charlie

When dogs start eating lower carbohydrate foods their eating habits change. They don't crave food, they don't bug you at the table, they just eat less food. More than likely it is because their blood sugar levels stay more stable. We all know that when blood sugar crashes after eating lots of carbs you want more and you get in a cycle of consuming too much food. There should be no argument on this. Have eggs for breakfast and you are happy, have Special K for breakfast and 30 mins later you are starving. With dogs it is reasonable to assume that they will naturally be healthier eating more protein than carbohydrate.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full

"Changing the macronutrient profile of a canine weight-loss diet from a high-carbohydrate level to one primarily based on protein can promote greater weight loss without further reductions in caloric intake. This weight loss is driven primarily from an increased loss of fat mass while maintaining lean muscle mass."

The question is do you go to extremes like Evo on the protein side or Abady on the fat side. There is a middle ground like Momentum 35/25 that seems more reasonable to me for most dogs at proper weight. These Victor high protein diets seem like a good option too, because the 42/22 is selling for about the same as Eukanuba and Pro Plan in the NJ market.

Until the overweight dog get into a normal lean state it is probably better to stay with moderate fat (10-12%) and high protein, especially with a Labrador.

Have eggs for breakfast and you are happy, have Special K for breakfast and 30 mins later you are starving. With dogs it is reasonable to assume that they will naturally be healthier eating more protein than carbohydrate.

I can't and won't argue the point on the protein and carbohydrate thing because I don't know enough about it. But I suspect it may affect different individuals in different ways. I know that for me, I am no hungrier after eating cereal than I am after eating eggs, unless I have a full coarse with the eggs [bacon or sausage, potatoes and toast or biscuits].

Charlie

Folks, there is a reason Abady's feed is a minor company, as well as all of the other high priced speciality type feeds. It has in the past and will in the future to just use some common sense and do what has worked forever. Dogs and humans lose weight when they take in less calories than they are using and we all know calories are used when you exercise whether working or playing. Some can try to couch that however they like but it isn't going to change and why would you want to spend a lot of money to accomplish what we have always done.

I think we all know that inactivity makes weight loss or even control very difficult. Why are we hearing how obese our kids are becoming since they spend their time playing video games rather than being on the ball field or putting up hay all summer. There were a lot of advantages for kids to have to do something rather than lay around all day just as there is for our dogs.

Ezzy

brad27 wrote: " just keep a big bowl of food out. The dog will eat when it's hungery.

Yes, that is exactly what I do! She without question regulates her own food intake and only eats when she's hungry.

The source of the calories does make a difference in weight loss along with an overall reduction in calories.

If I was trying to get weight off a dog I definitely go with a higher protein/higher fat food but also the total amount of calories given would be less than what was given prior to this change in diet. a higher protein/fat food make s dog feel more sated and it also makes them feel more active, thus more prone to wanting to go do something. The common diet foods on the market are low fat/high fiber with the idea that high fiber fills the stomach and fools the dog. It does not work except it does get the owner to buy it and the vet keeps recommending it becuase it is pushed down our throat in vet school by Hill's and Purina as the way to go. Wrong in my experiance as it rarely works.

One difference here with rations is that many of our hunting dogs/sled dogs are in pens and are not begging at the table, so much easier to ration as they have no opportunity to drive us nuts. The house dog, be it hunting or otherwise, is in our face. It is easier to wilt and give in to them and that is where I see clients fail in weight reduction time and time again.

Total calories reduced but the source of those calories would be best for the animal if they are derived primariliy from protein and fat as that is how a dogs' metabolism is meant to be fueled. Evolution has made em that way and the breed development that we humans have created. Remember, kibbled diets just started in the late 30's and dogs have been selected for by people for 10-20,000 years.

Honestly, is there spell check on this that I am missing?

ezzy333 wrote:Folks, there is a reason Abady's feed is a minor company, as well as all of the other high priced speciality type feeds. It has in the past and will in the future to just use some common sense and do what has worked forever. Dogs and humans lose weight when they take in less calories than they are using and we all know calories are used when you exercise whether working or playing. Some can try to couch that however they like but it isn't going to change and why would you want to spend a lot of money to accomplish what we have always done.

I think we all know that inactivity makes weight loss or even control very difficult. Why are we hearing how obese our kids are becoming since they spend their time playing video games rather than being on the ball field or putting up hay all summer. There were a lot of advantages for kids to have to do something rather than lay around all day just as there is for our dogs.

Ezzy

Ok, so using your logic: Why are 50% of dogs according to the AVMA overweight or clinically obese? Those magic carbohydrate and recycled newspaper foods are right there in the office. All you have to do is ask.

There is Puggle in my neighborhood that was so overweight he couldn't go for a long walk. He was under a vet's care on one of the prescription foods. The dog was on death's door. The owner asked for some advice and I recommended Annamaet Lean, 30/8. The dog has lost 5lbs in 6 weeks. So after two years of wasting money at the vet the dog is on the road to recovery. Of course the Vet blamed the owner.

20 years ago a calorie was a calorie, but clearly there is a difference.

How many people know the term "al dente"? Italians undercook pasta for two reasons: 1) The prefer the taste and 2) Because undercooking pasta changes the way it is digested. It slows the digestion down. The same plate of rigatoni has exactly the same amount of calories but one will put weight on and one is less likely too.

You are right when it comes to a normally healthy dog, yes, just change the amount of what you feed and it will be fixed. We are talking about how to treat an obese dog, like 50% of the dogs out there. Also, some common breeds are just more difficult to care for.

And I can show you over weight dogs on practically every feeding regiment known to man. My neighbor has an older dog that is borderline obese that started getting heavy when it had leg problems and wasn't exercising as much as it should. Was being fed one of the high priced designer feeds, higher than necessary protein as well as fat. Was a good feed if you wanted to pay that much and it performed just like every other feed. When the dog stopped running it kept right on eating and started to gain weight. Happens when a dog eats more calories than it is using no matter what you feed.

High protein feeds are fine for weight loss as long as it has a lower calorie count and that is hard to do with high fat. And the dog just doesn't need real high protein when it is inactive so why pay for it. What I hear is that we need to find out what is really considered high protein for a dog. Oft hand I can't think of any we feed that aren't high. The thirty percenters and higher are just pretty much overkill but make the ones that think if a litte is good a lot is better feel they are doing something for there dogs. The high fat is questionable though. I add fat to some of the dog food as an appetiser as they will eat more when I add it.

I still think it comes down to what works, Less calories and more exercise spells leaner dog.

Ezzy

brad27 wrote:

“Dogs become obese as a result of ingesting too many calories or as a result of a lack of exercise” These are popular claims made by industry. Neither contention is correct because dogs only ingest the amount of food they require to supply the calories they need to fuel their bodily functions. When they have acquired the needed calories they will stop eating. This is a scientific fact. They cannot overeat, even if they gorge themselves one day and don’t eat the next. If they receive less exercise, left to their own devices, they will consume less food and thereby not get fatter because of the reduced exercise.

That's funny. If I road my dog 3 days a week and feed her 2.5 cups a day she stays at a consistent weight. If I feed her 2.5 cups a day and don't road her she gains weight. BTW, she eats all 2.5 cups everyday.
Why does abady give feeding recommdations if the dog won't over eat. Why not just say " just keep a big bowl of food out. The dog will eat when it's hungery.

..................

I think that works for one dog , or dogs that are penned separately , but at my place one will gorge itself just to keep the other 2 from eating it.