Purina pro plan performance

[slistoe]

It's really quite simple - the dogs are playing with your mind.

[ezzy333]

This is what happens with so many nutrition threads. We have someone with little if any understanding of a dogs nutritional needs and even less about feed ingredients and how and why they are used. But they have strong opinions of what is good and what is bad based on something they have heard or read, probably on the Internet. And sadly no one suffers except for their dogs.

Ezzy

This is a fairly oblique statement "with little if any" examples to substantiate it's claims. Not sure who it's intended for, but if you have read a specific submission you feel is inaccurate, reference the submission, present your differing position & back it up with facts.

What's even worse than a poster that thinks they are informed, is a Moderator/Admin who thinks they are informed- but are not. As their Bulletin Board "powers" are broader than the average member/poster, a misinformed Moderator/Admin can do WAY MORE damage (with regards to the overall nutritional needs of our dogs) than any poster- as the Moderator/Admin regulates what flies & what dies on the board.

I'm done with this- Happy Thanksgiving all.

Rob

Would you like to give us some examples of this great power the mods/admin. have to influence people. I sure could use it if you could get it for me. As far as i know a misinformed Mod would do about as much damage as any other misinformed member. Luckily, we don't have that problem on this forum.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

I fed a lot of feeds, Nutro High Performance, Nutro Ultra, Royal Canin Medium, Royal Canin Performance, PPP, Euk Performance, Canidae ALS, Canidae Grain free, Pro Series Performance, Wellness Core, Nutura, Calfornia Natural, Parallel, all the different EVO's. Proseries puppy, pro plan puppy, nutro puppy (to adult dogs). Probably a few others as well I am forgetting. Anyways I haven't seen a difference in any of it, PPP is like 80 bucks a bag up here which is ridiculous. I just feed whatever is close to 30/20 and priced well.

[magspa]

Sorry to all, I am new to forums and didnt realize this post would cause arguments. But anyways, my dogs seem to be doing fine on it. These are my first two gun dogs, and I have fed nutro, TOTW, and innova. I really havent noticed a difference with any of them. Although the one is looking pretty skinny but I converted them to outside dogs when I got a new house with privacy fence so im thinking its from playing all day plus training/hunting.

[ezzy333]

Sorry to all, I am new to forums and didnt realize this post would cause arguments. But anyways, my dogs seem to be doing fine on it. These are my first two gun dogs, and I have fed nutro, TOTW, and innova. I really havent noticed a difference with any of them. Although the one is looking pretty skinny but I converted them to outside dogs when I got a new house with privacy fence so im thinking its from playing all day plus training/hunting.

Absolutely no need to be sorry as it seems we need to have this discussion evry few months as new members join and need to learn some facts from our experienced owners. Ther is so much misinformation out there and it confuses a lot of people.

Ezzy

[Doc E]

Would you like to give us some examples of this great power the mods/admin. have to influence people. I sure could use it if you could get it for me.

Ezzy

How about your PM to me a few days ago:
That seems like a pretty good example to me......................



This idiot has enough sense to converse civilly with fellow posters. And you will need to learn to if you plan on being here long.
Enough said.

Al



.

[slistoe]

Sounds to me like you were being less than civil DocE. Perhaps you should keep that to yourself and learn from it?

[GrayDawg]

Sounds to me like you were being less than civil DocE. Perhaps you should keep that to yourself and learn from it?

Sounds to me like Doc was providing Ezzy a perfect example of the power the Mods have to which I was referring.
Mods can delete posts and user accounts if they want to. That is a power which can dictate the tone, tenor and volume of what is being posted regarding any given subject.

What cracks me up is any Mod who thinks they are all knowing regarding any given subject. If Ezzy holds a degree in canine nutrition, I'll gladly defer to his experience and formal education on the subject.

Other than that, he's just another dog owner who happens to be a Mod on the forum. A Mod with the power to delete posts and steer the conversation in the direction he sees fit. THAT'S the kind of power to which I was referring.

Look at my dogs and tell me they look unhealthy or suffering from malnutrition. If you can't tell me that, then one would have to conclude that i'm doing something right and that I have to at least know a little something. I've been to my fair share of canine nutrition seminars. Seminars that WERE NOT sponsored by dog food companies with a slanted agenda.

Good ingredients in a dog food Is only half the equation. Having those ingredients in a state where the dog can properly metabolize those ingredients and reap their benefits before the dog's digestive track processes the food and craps it out is the portion of the nutritional puzzle often overlooked.

So lay it on us Ezzy, what degree do you hold in canine nutrition? If your answer is 'none', then we are all just a bunch of dog owners sharing opinions. You may think I don't know what I'm talking about just as I may feel you are sticking your head in the sand regarding certain aspects of this topic. People need to do their own research and draw their own conclusions.

Rob

[Cajun Casey]

My dogs love the new treats that ProPlan is putting samples of in the PPP bags. And, there's a $1.50 coupon for treats in with the sample. Peace, out.

[Sharon]

Sorry to all, I am new to forums and didnt realize this post would cause arguments. But anyways, my dogs seem to be doing fine on it. These are my first two gun dogs, and I have fed nutro, TOTW, and innova. I really havent noticed a difference with any of them. Although the one is looking pretty skinny but I converted them to outside dogs when I got a new house with privacy fence so im thinking its from playing all day plus training/hunting.

Absolutely no need to be sorry as it seems we need to have this discussion evry few months as new members join and need to learn some facts from our experienced owners. Ther is so much misinformation out there and it confuses a lot of people.

Ezzy

What about a sticky link at the top? - " Everything you want to Know About Dog Food " click here.

PS I value your knowledge about dog food Ezzy.

[ACooper]

My dogs eat grass, cow "bleep", dead stuff they find, and random other goodies along with what I feed them, so I'll never understand why some folks get so pissy about dog food.

[ezzy333]

Graydog,

When you read that I PM'd Doc E when he called a fellow poster an idiot, I assume that you would love to blame me for influencing someone. And you may be right, since I did it by PM so no one but Doc E would be able to see that he had to be admonished for some very bad choices he made. I don't believe that is influencing anyone other than the individual who needed it. As you can see it really didn't work as he was quite proud of what he said and actually posted what I said in the PM. So now I have a choice, just let his insult go, which isn't fair to anyone else or give him some time off to maybe rethink where he is coming from. Either way I suppose you will think I am influencing people and guiding the direction of the topic we are discussing. So in your mind I will be quilty no matter what I do. Sorry about that, but I do have responsibilities to the forum and you along with all the other members.

AS FAR AS MY BACKGROUND IT HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED FOR ANYONE INTERESTED AND IS AVAILABLE TO YOU IF YOU LOOK IN THE ARCHIVES OF THE FORUM. Hope that helps you. I will have to admit there is a whole lot I don't know and I try to remain silent in those areas and learn from those who have esxperience in those areas, but there are one or two I do know about from education, job experiences, and as an owner for the past 60 years.

You don't have to do it but for all of our information, who sponsored all of the seminars on dog nutrition that you attended? I find it hard to find any in our area that I can recommend for people wanting to educate themselves other than articles posted on the internetwhich all seem to have an agenda that is less than factual.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

“Tim,

Just got back from the Purina Endurance Trial. 112 dogs entered. I had 5 that were qualified. All of them are on Momentum. I finished 2nd, 4th and my young GSP was put out in the 16 to 8 cut by a National champion. Didn’t win but real pleased with those results. Its rare to put two dogs in the final four.

The dogs held up great in the heat. I can’t tell you how much I am pleased with the food. I was concerned with having them on a new food and then running them in the heat. It is a concern I will no longer have to think about. They performed better then I have ever seen them.

I was mixing in a handful with the multi dextrin between rounds to give them something to run on during the next round. I think my dogs held up better then any others there.

Keep up the good work.”

We got this bit of great news from Scott Townsend of Cross Wind Kennel. Congratulations to Scott and his crew.

Do you think they were allowed to promote Dr. Tim's at this event, doubtful.

[GrayDawg]

Ezzy,
I've been to four Canine Nutrition seminars since 1999. Three of them were sponsored by Tufts University School of Veternary Medicine
in Boston, MA. The fourth was held at Carnegie Mellon University (in conjunction with Cornell University).

Rob

[frontline]

The dog food industry has changed greatly in recent years with new research, new ingredients and new methods of manufacturing. It's a shame that posters can't express their opinions or exchange ideas without always having to battle with a condescending and overbearing moderator.

[brad27]

The dog food industry has changed greatly in recent years with new research, new ingredients and new methods of manufacturing. It's a shame that posters can't express their opinions or exchange ideas without always having to battle with a condescending and overbearing moderator.

Could you post a like that shows how things were done in the past and how they've changed?

[slistoe]

Ezzy,
I've been to four Canine Nutrition seminars since 1999. Three of them were sponsored by Tufts University School of Veternary Medicine
in Boston, MA. The fourth was held at Carnegie Mellon University (in conjunction with Cornell University).

Rob

Awesome. So they provided you with clinical research trials that back up all of the claims. I have been looking forever for some solid evidence that the new marketing is based on anything other than emotion. Is there an online link to any of the research? Even if it is a scientific journal that needs a paid subscription that would be fine. Would love to read it.

[ezzy333]

.

The dog food industry has changed greatly in recent years with new research, new ingredients and new methods of manufacturing. It's a shame that posters can't express their opinions or exchange ideas without always having to battle with a condescending and overbearing moderator.

I think what the guys are saying is show us what these changes are and how they are changing the nutrion of our dogs. When you are through, I need you to remember we don't make remarks about other posters. This forum is about gundogs, so keep your comments about the dogs .

Ezzy

[jcbuttry8]

I think it's funny that some here feel that the mods have some sort of agenda against members. Here's one for you to remember, that some of you that have been warned or talked to many times is because of another member feeling attacked and coming to a Mod. It's funny how some feel it is ok to attack others on here but get so upset when they feel attacked.

I used to coach pop Warner football and my paychecks then look as good as these checks look. I used to tell all the parents that complained about everything we did the same thing. Go to the website and fill out an application. We are always in need of great coaches that seem to know everything about the game. Otherwise, sit down, shut up and watch the game.

Joe

[GrayDawg]

.

The dog food industry has changed greatly in recent years with new research, new ingredients and new methods of manufacturing. It's a shame that posters can't express their opinions or exchange ideas without always having to battle with a condescending and overbearing moderator.

I think what the guys are saying is show us what these changes are and how they are changing the nutrion of our dogs. When you are through, I need you to remember we don't make remarks about other posters. This forum is about gundogs, so keep your comments about the dogs .

Ezzy

Ezzy,
You may want to take your own advice. Because on page 1 of this thread, you (Ezzy) wrote:

"We have someone with little if any understanding of a dogs nutritional needs and even less about feed ingredients and how and why they are used"

then in another post, you wrote:

"because the owner has formed an opinion based on something other than fact. It too bad this happens but it seems it is almost impossible to change those opinions no matter how hard you try to educate them"

Sure does come off as though you're talking about a poster and NOT the dogs.

Rob

[slistoe]

Hey GrayDawg, how about the fact sheets from your seminars? I really am interested in reading about it.

[GrayDawg]

Hey GrayDawg, how about the fact sheets from your seminars? I really am interested in reading about it.

The first three seminars I attended, we all walked away with 2 inch binders of the presentation slides. The attendees of the Tufts seminars were not granted access to the data that sits behind the Tufts firewall, as we were not Tufts students.

The Carnegie Mellon/Cornell seminar, we walked away with a CD. Would you like me to review the CD, pick out some charts, print out those specific pages, then scan those specific pages and send them to you or post them ?? I'm not quite sure I want to sign up for that much work on a Sunday after my 10 year-old son had a sleep over birthday party last night. Give me some time with this request.

Rob

[Cajun Casey]

Hey GrayDawg, how about the fact sheets from your seminars? I really am interested in reading about it.

The first three seminars I attended, we all walked away with 2 inch binders of the presentation slides. The attendees of the Tufts seminars were not granted access to the data that sits behind the Tufts firewall, as we were not Tufts students.

The Carnegie Mellon/Cornell seminar, we walked away with a CD. Would you like me to review the CD, pick out some charts, print out those specific pages, then scan those specific pages and send them to you or post them ?? I'm not quite sure I want to sign up for that much work on a Sunday after my 10 year-old son had a sleep over birthday party last night. Give me some time with this request.

Rob

Both Tufts and Cornell used to have newsletters you could subscribe to that published that sort of stuff. I believe they have online archives for subscribers. All the major food companies have reports and studies, also, and online "courses" they offer, although you may have to be in the industry. AVMA allows some public access to their material, as does the AKC-CFH. Just to aid in your recovery.

[slistoe]

Hey GrayDawg, how about the fact sheets from your seminars? I really am interested in reading about it.

The first three seminars I attended, we all walked away with 2 inch binders of the presentation slides. The attendees of the Tufts seminars were not granted access to the data that sits behind the Tufts firewall, as we were not Tufts students.

The Carnegie Mellon/Cornell seminar, we walked away with a CD. Would you like me to review the CD, pick out some charts, print out those specific pages, then scan those specific pages and send them to you or post them ?? I'm not quite sure I want to sign up for that much work on a Sunday after my 10 year-old son had a sleep over birthday party last night. Give me some time with this request.

Rob

Of particular interest would be the data that shows why we would avoid bone in dog food. What are the detrimental effects of inclusion of bone and the links to the studies that have proven these effects in feeding trials.

[GrayDawg]

Hey GrayDawg, how about the fact sheets from your seminars? I really am interested in reading about it.

The first three seminars I attended, we all walked away with 2 inch binders of the presentation slides. The attendees of the Tufts seminars were not granted access to the data that sits behind the Tufts firewall, as we were not Tufts students.

The Carnegie Mellon/Cornell seminar, we walked away with a CD. Would you like me to review the CD, pick out some charts, print out those specific pages, then scan those specific pages and send them to you or post them ?? I'm not quite sure I want to sign up for that much work on a Sunday after my 10 year-old son had a sleep over birthday party last night. Give me some time with this request.

Rob

Of particular interest would be the data that shows why we would avoid bone in dog food. What are the detrimental effects of inclusion of bone and the links to the studies that have proven these effects in feeding trials.

In two of the seminars I attended, I remeber this subject specific being discussed. The long and short of it is as follows:

- ground chicken (or beef) bones in dog food offer little to no benefit nutritionally to dogs because the calcium, potassium and phosphorus contained in the ground bone can't be adequately metabolized by the dog before the dogs processes the food digestively. In simpler terms..... The dog craps out the ground bone before they can reap the benefits of the aforementioned nutrients.

It's great for the dog food manufacturers as it simplifies the process when they can just include the ground bone- the ground bone even adds weight to their feed. But the ground bone is "hollow" weight. Providing the dog little to nothing nutritionally.. The more optimal way to deliver calcium, potassium and phosphorus to a dog via feed is by adding those ingredients specifically..... But that costs more money and slows the manufacturing process.......which both drive UP the bottom line.

There was a canned food, which one I can't recall, that included the aforementioned ingredients as individual additives, but none of us here are going to feed our dogs via cans, so I didn't even consider it an option.

I hope this helps.

Rob

[slistoe]

So wild dog and cat species are obviously deficient in calcium, phosphorous and potassium?

[GrayDawg]

So wild dog and cat species are obviously deficient in calcium, phosphorous and potassium?

That would stand to reason... For canines. I don't think I can speak for felines, as I don't believe we received any information specific to the metabolic rates of felines...... Just canines.

Now if for some reason feral canines have slower metabolisms than domesticated dogs..... It may be successfully submitted that their digestive tracks hold onto the food long enough to reap the benefits of the nutrients contained in bone. But let me be clear, the seminars I attended were focused on domestic canine nutrition and the food most likely to be consumed by our canines- not feral canines. So I don't feel comfortables assuming this is an 'apples to apples' comparison.

Rob

[SCT]

So wild dog and cat species are obviously deficient in calcium, phosphorous and potassium?

This is an interesting question to me. The way I understand it, raw meat requires calcium to be digested properly without causing live bone calcium depletion from too much phosphorous in the meat . The bones they eat are vital to them living a long healthy life. And, if you've ever fed your dogs raw meat you'd find that their stools shrink dramatically (in other words, they are using it all or almost all). So, I guess it makes sense that wild dogs on a raw meat diet have to eat the bones to go on, but the processed food companies can't provide a food where the dogs utilize the crushed bones. Is that what you're saying Rob? It sounds possible if not likely. Is it because they cook the meat and add carbs? What about the fat wild dogs get from their prey?

Humans that eat only cooked meat can succumb to gout (in the far north it's a concern) but on a raw meat/salted meat diet the nutrients are not cooked out of the meat and the possibility of gout is remote. They also consume a lot of fat.

[Angus]

Don't forget about the internals and stomach contents of prey. I may be wrong, but rarely does an alpha eat bone in the wild. He eats the organs and digestive tract. Bone is not the only source of calcium in a wild canine diet. In Kibble it adds to the Ash content, not nutritional value.

Coyote fecal matter can be white in color after a short period of time from teh bone matter ingested.

Dogs love to chew on bones, not feed on them.

[ezzy333]

Most dog foods do not contain much bone meal as it is priced out of the market, strictly because it is the best form of calcium as far as digestibility goes and is in short supply. Years ago we switched from the bone meal to limestone. You decide which is best for a dog and easier to digest?

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Why is it right near the top of old roy, alpo and every no name grocery store bag I have ever looked at then?

[frontline]

Most dog foods do not contain much bone meal as it is priced out of the market, strictly because it is the best form of calcium as far as digestibility goes and is in short supply. Years ago we switched from the bone meal to limestone. You decide which is best for a dog and easier to digest?

Ezzy

Where are you getting this information? Is this your opinion???

"While there is only limited data available regarding supplemental calcium sources for companion animals, there is ample applicable data in swine, where bioavailability of calcium from ground limestone and (or) calcium carbonate is effectively 100% (Soares, 1995)."

Calcium carbonate (limestone) is a safer alternative to bone meal as a calcium supplement and bone meal is no longer recommended as a human supplement because of health risks.

[ezzy333]

Bone Meal was used as a calcium and phosphorus source. There was not a digestibility problem with it but there became an availability problem and then came the concern about contamination with heavy metals and the scare of mad cow disease. You can still buy it as human supplement but much of it goes into the fertilizers for flowers and garden plants due to its almost instant availability, hence less available and higher prices on the open market.

The concern with it as a human supplement is the purity of the material. Several companies have developed methods to purify it. But they have also found that supplements are not the best way to get your nutrients and that is having an effect too.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

Then how can the bargain brands still get it while under pricing everyone?

[GrayDawg]

Then how can the bargain brands still get it while under pricing everyone?

'Cuz it ain't pure !!

[Will]

I switched over to this because I got another GSP, mainly to save money and it is all life stages, so convenience too. 30%protein and chicken is the first ingredient so it seems alright. I was feeding innova prime. These are my first two dogs so Im not sure if the money savings will be worth it. Any of yal feed this?

I fed it to one of my last pups for a while because he came with some and I had a bunch of the small sample bags from our Pheasants Forever banquet. He did well while he was on it and continued to do well when I switched him over to what the rest of the kennel was on.

It is on my short list of what I would consider feeding if I was forced into a change. I consider the following when determining if a food is "worth it": dog health, stool, amount needed for dog requirement, value, price, and availability. I guess all of those kind of determine value.

[cjhills]

If you base your choice of food on what the dog likes, week old road kill would probably be the choice. Mine want what the other dog has. Not neccessarily whats best for them. Cj

[Dwells]

I have been feeding Diamond Extreme Athlete for years. Always had a problem with loose stools anytime you increased feed when working dogs hard. There for I feed twice a day during trial season to keep dogs up. Thought it was a good feed and dogs looked pretty good.

Bought a puppy in the spring, he was the biggest in the litter. He was still the biggest at 4 months old. I feed him the diamond feed every morning and evening. He looked good and I was satisfied until a couple of weeks ago. Went to a trial and 3 of his littermates were there. All of them were bigger than him and looked better, even the runt of the litter. They were all fed PPP.

I take good care of my dogs, keep them wormed and healthy at all times. I could not believe the difference in the littermates and my dog. Bought some PPP on the way home from the trial and have never looked back. In two weeks all my dogs looked better and their stools are great. I could not believe the difference.

Pro Plan Performance is a little high priced, so I was going to try a bag of Loyal Professional on a couple of my dogs and see how it compared. It is cheaper and I can get it in town. I have to drive 40 miles to get the PPP

[GrayDawg]

What if you could buy a dog feed that breaks down as follows:

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Protein (min) ................................................................... 30.0%
Fat (min) ........................................................................ 20.0%
Crude Fiber (max) ............................................................. 3.50%
Moisture (max) ................................................................ 10.00%
Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min) ................................................... 3.50%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) ................................................... 0.45%

CALORIE COUNT:

4409 kcal ME / kg
(2000 kcal ME / lb)
(calculated)

Top 8 ingredients (by percentage & in order) as follows:
- Chicken Meal
- Chicken Fat (Stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols)
- Ground Rice
- Ground Oats
- Ground Barley
- Beet Pulp
- Fish Meal
- Ground Flaxseeds


Keep in mind, this food will cost you roughly $1/lb. and you can purchase it from any merchant
who is part of the "Do it Best" network (I used to get it through a local hardware store!) or from any
Blue Seal distributor.

Would you try it? PM if you want the name of the feed. I don't want to be accused of "pushing" my feed
here on this thread.

Rob

[slistoe]

It has been my experience that foods with rice instead of corn and chicken meal instead of chicken by-product meal simply did not keep the same coat quality in hard working dogs. But there would be no reason to not try it if a person were looking for a new food product and see how the dogs did over a month of feeding compared to the other feeds.
Are you not worried about the fact there is bone in that food? It may be harmful to your dogs. How about the fact that they have not come clean about it being a vegetable based food?

[GrayDawg]

How about the fact that they have not come clean about it being a vegetable based food?

If you saw the actual % of the beet pulp, you would not make the statement that it is a vegetable based food.
Very little beet, percentage-wise.

As for the bone, notice the Omega-6 & Omega-3 Fatty Acids? Guess what these ingrediaents actually do?
That's right, they help accelerate the the breakdown of the bone so the dog can reap the benefits of the
minerals contained in the bone as the digestive tract metabolizes the food and before the dog craps it out.

It's so important to the make up of the feed, that is why it's listed in the GUARANTEED ANALYSIS.

BTW, both my dog's coats are smooth as silk............

Rob

[ezzy333]

The ingredient list looks very much like many feeds on the market and the guarantees are the same as many feeds that are available. Looks like a decent feed but nothing unique. I have little use for rice and have found that corn is a much better product if you need to condition a working dog. And the by-products do provide more than a straight meat meal. Every feed that includes Beet Pulp have very little in the feed as it is used strictly for the health of the intestines and not really as a source of protein or carbs. It just happens to be one of very few cellulose based products that dogs can actually digest. The flax seed is the source of the omega fatty acids but again very little is used as you can see from where it is placed on the list. The omegas are listed strictly because of current interest in promoting healthy joints and not because of helping digestion in every feed. For a matter of fact, I don't see anything with bone in it listed as an ingredient. I think Slistoe was pulling your chain a little and you came up with an answer that sounds like it came off of the talking points of their marketing program instead of answering his comment.

It would be much more informative to tell everyone what the feed is instead of asking people to PM you to find out. That does make it sound like you are promoting this single feed instead of trying to inform the members of the board. That always bothers when our whole purpose is to be an information source to newcomers to our group of dog lovers, hunters,and trialers.

Glad you found a feed that works for you.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

Nestle is going up on prices, just FYI.

[slistoe]

I am sorry for the wording - vegetable vs animal matter. Grains are ??? Is corn a grain or a vegetable?

Ezzy has the beet pulp thing covered.

Every dog is different and it is good yours are getting what they need from the feed you have found.

So the earlier advice about avoiding food that contains bone was not correct?

[Big Dave]

Hunted Kansas for 4 days, rested the dogs for 3 days then guided for 3 days. Fed Pro Plan, dogs are looking and performing well. Now that I only have two dogs I can handle the cost easier and I am pleased with the results.

[GrayDawg]

So the earlier advice about avoiding food that contains bone was not correct?

Dog feed containing animal (specifically, chicken) bone, but lacks the proper ingredients in it's overall formula
to properly & efficiently breakdown the bone so as to allow the dog to reap the benefits of the minerals contained in the bone during the metabolization process should be avoided.

Fortunately for me, the dog feed I use doesn't lack the proper ingredients in it's overall formula to properly & efficiently breakdown the bone so as to allow the dog to reap the benefits of the minerals contained in the bone before they crap the food out.

Got it now? comprende'? Some dog feeds have the proper formula to allow the dog to reap the benefits of the minerals contains in bone and other dog feeds do not. Not all dog feeds have the same formula.......... to submit that all dog feeds do have the same formula is patently wrong!

Rob

[slistoe]

But "chicken" on the label DOES equate to the very strong likelihood that there is bone in the food (and consumers are led to believe their dogs are getting chicken meat. Don't be a Purina Pro Plan apologist. Just the term "chicken" equates to bone. If it was only meat in the food, it would state "chicken meat".

Bone doesn't contain anything that is beneficial to a canine's diet.

In two of the seminars I attended, I remeber this subject specific being discussed. The long and short of it is as follows:

- ground chicken (or beef) bones in dog food offer little to no benefit nutritionally to dogs because the calcium, potassium and phosphorus contained in the ground bone can't be adequately metabolized by the dog before the dogs processes the food digestively. In simpler terms..... The dog craps out the ground bone before they can reap the benefits of the aforementioned nutrients.

It's great for the dog food manufacturers as it simplifies the process when they can just include the ground bone- the ground bone even adds weight to their feed. But the ground bone is "hollow" weight. Providing the dog little to nothing nutritionally

Yeah, I get it, you are typing to hear yourself type. Stick to things you know something about.

[GrayDawg]

But "chicken" on the label DOES equate to the very strong likelihood that there is bone in the food (and consumers are led to believe their dogs are getting chicken meat. Don't be a Purina Pro Plan apologist. Just the term "chicken" equates to bone. If it was only meat in the food, it would state "chicken meat".

What's your point here? I still stand by this statement.

Bone doesn't contain anything that is beneficial to a canine's diet.

Finish the thought- don't truncate the quote....... "when the bones can't be properly metabolized prior to the dog crapping them out."

In two of the seminars I attended, I remeber this subject specific being discussed. The long and short of it is as follows:

- ground chicken (or beef) bones in dog food offer little to no benefit nutritionally to dogs because the calcium, potassium and phosphorus contained in the ground bone can't be adequately metabolized by the dog before the dogs processes the food digestively. In simpler terms..... The dog craps out the ground bone before they can reap the benefits of the aforementioned nutrients.

It's great for the dog food manufacturers as it simplifies the process when they can just include the ground bone- the ground bone even adds weight to their feed. But the ground bone is "hollow" weight. Providing the dog little to nothing nutritionally

Again, finish the thought- don't truncate the quote....... "when the bones can't be properly metabolized prior to the dog crapping them out."


Yeah, I get it, you are typing to hear yourself type. Stick to things you know something about.

As should you Scott. Sorry if I'm not going to allow you to twist my words around. You're simply not smart enough to speak for me.

Rob

[slistoe]

You are right, I did truncate one quote where you specified how a dog was to get the nutrients

The more optimal way to deliver calcium, potassium and phosphorus to a dog via feed is by adding those ingredients specifically..... But that costs more money and slows the manufacturing process.......which both drive UP the bottom line.

Oops... I didn't read anything about digestive aids or Omega's in there.

So, have you found the feeding trials that outline the negative effects of feeding bone to your dog?

How about your theory on wild canines - we have a much longer digestive tract than canines so I suppose bone would be real good for humans eh?

[Angus]

The ingredient list looks very much like many feeds on the market and the guarantees are the same as many feeds that are available. Looks like a decent feed but nothing unique. I have little use for rice and have found that corn is a much better product if you need to condition a working dog. And the by-products do provide more than a straight meat meal. Every feed that includes Beet Pulp have very little in the feed as it is used strictly for the health of the intestines and not really as a source of protein or carbs. It just happens to be one of very few cellulose based products that dogs can actually digest. The flax seed is the source of the omega fatty acids but again very little is used as you can see from where it is placed on the list. The omegas are listed strictly because of current interest in promoting healthy joints and not because of helping digestion in every feed. For a matter of fact, I don't see anything with bone in it listed as an ingredient. I think Slistoe was pulling your chain a little and you came up with an answer that sounds like it came off of the talking points of their marketing program instead of answering his comment.

It would be much more informative to tell everyone what the feed is instead of asking people to PM you to find out. That does make it sound like you are promoting this single feed instead of trying to inform the members of the board. That always bothers when our whole purpose is to be an information source to newcomers to our group of dog lovers, hunters,and trialers.

Glad you found a feed that works for you.

Ezzy

Hey you're right. it does look like a normal dog food and pretty close to what a dog kibble should look like. Now compare those ingredients to the PPP in question.

Purina is a feed suplier that runs Feed Mills. Feed Mills are places for farmers to drop off their grain. Add a couple mills, fat tanks, and cookers and they think that they can make dog food right along with the horse feed.

Pro Pac High Performance is cheaper than PPP and is full of meat protein and whole grain corn for the binder. PPP is full of every part of the corn kernel from another manufacturers waste, but do not use Whole grain corn.

Again I am not saying that PPP doesn't work fine, it's just not all it's cracked up to be.

Heck Ezzy, even with Diamonds issues you gotta admit that they at least use meat as the main source of protein. Same with Loyall, which is a pretty good food imo.