New food for my GSP!!! Opinions please!

SlickClowninMillie · Post by **SlickClowninMillie** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:48 pm

I have a 5 months old GSP female that I am going to switch over to an adult food. Didn't know if you could tell me the difference between Purino HiPro and Purina Pro Plan or the benefit or one or the other. Or if you guys had anything other suggestions on a feed! Thanks guy!

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:15 pm

Although I do not feed either one, they are very popular feeds. The list of quality feeds available these days is endless. Some cost more, some cost less. I think if there was any advantage of one over the other it might be that with Pro Plan you probably are going to have more options as far as formula's goes. You can get Beef, Chicken, Lamb etc. as your primary protein sources, whereas HiPro I believe is beef only. Otherwise they are probably very similiar. You will have to try them to find out if your particular dog does well on them though.

I feed Native level 3 to my younger dog, it is manufactured by Kent Feeds. I've been feeding it for a couple months and so far so good. I think I paid $30 for a 40 lb bag. I use Canidae for my senior dog and that is working great as well.

FWIW

SlickClowninMillie · Post by **SlickClowninMillie** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:25 pm

Also, my buddy suggested I put a raw egg with with their food daily to help with their coat and overall health. Any feelings on that? Thanks again

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:30 pm

I don't think it is needed as most quality feeds will have essential fatty acids such as Omega 3 and 6 already in them. If the coat is not up to snuff then a switch to a feed that is high in Omega's may be in order. Just my opinion but if you are going to add anything at all I would add a teaspoon of flax oil rather than an egg, Not sure if salmonella is an issue or not with the raw eggs for dogs. But then again if the dogs coat is fine without, then no need to add anything.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:51 pm

There is no need for an egg. While the yoke does help the white is a detriment to good coats. An egg is just a poor plus expensive way of adding a little fat to the diet.

But a quality dog food for your pup and spend your time worrying about what you eat and you both will be healthy happy campers.

Ezzy

sjschneller · Post by **sjschneller** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:57 pm

I used to feed Hi-Pro. The dogs seemed to like it, but They left a lot of waste in the kennel. I switched to Black Gold black bag, and it is a lot better. It is about a dollar more per 50# bag than Hi-Pro, but it is well worth it. I am getting ready to try Purina Mills flannel red bag protein to see what its like.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:02 pm

While the yoke does help the white is a detriment to good coats

That is an old wives tale Ezzy. Feeding a whole egg once in a while won't hurt a thing. DO feed the whole egg tho and not just the white or just the yolk. My dogs love their occasional egg treats and eat them shell and all. No one in my kennel has problem coat issues....

But that said, pick a good quality feed to begin with and supplementation is not going to be necessary. If it were me looking to the Purina line ( which I don't use) I'd take a step up from the Hi Pro and go with the Pro Plan Performance.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:03 pm

Check out the Diamond Foods. They are a great food and too expensive either. Their new Naturals line is as good as any in my opinion and my vets. I am thinking of switching her to the Naturals from the Premium adult, but havent decided yet.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:25 pm

Feeding a whole egg once in a while won't hurt a thing. DO feed the whole egg tho and not just the white or just the yolk. My dogs love their occasional egg treats and eat them shell and all. No one in my kennel has problem coat issues....

Helen,

I didn't say there hair would all fall out. I just said it did more harm than good. The fat in the yolk is what you see in the coats which is the reason given for feeding the egg. The albumen in the white which is also higher in protein may be good for the dog but not the hair coat. Much cheaper to just feed a little oil on their feed. And I don't think the shell going down the esophagus is real good either but you probably will get by with it and it will disolve in the acid of the stomach. The other thing that is minor I suppose is I don't want to teach the dogs to be egg eaters. I would just as soon have them pass a turkey nest or any other bird's nest without disturbing it. Our farm dogs that learned to eat whole eggs were not assured a long healthy life.

Ezzy

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:27 pm

I use both. Big difference is the cost. I feed my two female GSP's in the house Pro-Plan Adult Chicken fomula. It's the only food that doesn't give my wifes dog "room clearing" gas.

Plus she is alergic to the Diamond fomulas. I pay about $33.00 for a 37.5lb bag. The Hi-Pro is right at $20.00 for a 50lb bag. I am going back to the Hi-Pro when the temp warms up a bit. I have them on a higher fat Diamond now. My dogs did just fine on the Hi-Pro and probably would have done just fine on it through the winter also. I just thought a little higher fat content would be a little better with the sub zero temps we have over winter.

mtjim · Post by **mtjim** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:20 pm

Three of us are feeding Black Gold Plantation Blend

to 7 GSP's and 3 Setters.

We're more than pleased with it.

http://blackgolddogfood.com/plantation.htm

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:38 pm

Pro Plan is an up grade from Hi Pro but still the ingredients of Pro Plan is not anything I would feed my dog/s. I have never fed anything made by Purina. Iams and Eukanuba would be better but I still don't feed them either.

I prefer foods with NO corn, wheat, soy, by-products, grain fractions like glutens, and chemical preservitives.

A lot has to do with available brands in your local area. Many of the better brands are not sold at PetsMart or Petco, only sold at private feed and pet stores.

What I would do is try the Pro Plan chicken rice adult and see how your dog looks in 3 to 6 months. If you don't like what you see.... then change to something better.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:19 pm

Pro Plan Performance and Eukanuba Premium Performance are far and away the best two foods I have come across. Eukanuba seems to produce somewhat richer coat colors, but Eukanuba come with the baggage of having supported a HSUS related entity at one time. Purina graciously sponsors a great many dog pros and dog events. It would be fair to say that most of our best atheletes across all breeds, are currently thriving on Pro Plan Performance.

Hi Pro is not worth feeding unless you like shoveling dog poop in copious quantities.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:07 pm

Pro Plan is an up grade from Hi Pro but still the ingredients of Pro Plan is not anything I would feed my dog/s. I have never fed anything made by Purina. Iams and Eukanuba would be better but I still don't feed them either.

I prefer foods with NO corn, wheat, soy, by-products, grain fractions like glutens, and chemical preservitives.

Mike B,

Its nice you can feed what you do and am so glad you like it. But don't try to convince newcomers asking serious questions that feed without corn, soy, wheat, or by-products are better cause it just ain't true. Probably 95% of the performance dogs in the world are eating those ingredients because that's what they need to maintain their conditionwhile working.

Ezzy

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:02 pm

You are welcome to your opinion and I will keep mine thank you. WE will NEVER agree on what to feed dogs and thats OK with me. YOU won't ever change my mind!

When some one asks for opinions I will always give mine and you are welcome to yours.

Wheat is the #1 allergy causing grain to many dogs. May be not yours but MANY in this world can't eat it. Soy maybe #2 and I have seen dogs with Hot Spots so bad they have no hair caused from foods with poor meat quality and ground corn. Those dogs got off the cheap by-product meat & ground corn based food and no more skin problems. The owners were thrilled.

I know none of this has NEVER happened to any of your dogs but in 35 years of my business with dog I have seen it all. A dogs health is all about what they eat! Plain and simple.

I also would NEVER feed a 5 month old growing large breed pup 30/20 rocket fuel during the most important growth period of it's life. Hi protein and fat are the #1 cause of Pano and other bone growth problems. That is the whole reason many manufactures make Large breed puppy and adult foods. In my opinion it is nothing more than what healthy adult food is at between 23% to 25% protein and 13 to 15 % fat. 24/14 maybe the ideal levels for growing large and giant breed pups.

I am sure none of your pups have never had any bone growth problems from your food but it happens more than you will ever know.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop slamming my opinion.
I am man enough to agree to disagree with you. I think my opinion falls under freedom of speech the last time I looked.

I have always said.... Feed what works best for each dog. If it doesn't work then evaluate the ingredients of what your feeding. It just my be the cause to the problem.

shets114 · Post by **shets114** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:49 pm

What he said.....LOL>..

ohiohuntinweim · Post by **ohiohuntinweim** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:55 am

SlickClowninMillie wrote:I have a 5 months old GSP female that I am going to switch over to an adult food. Didn't know if you could tell me the difference between Purino HiPro and Purina Pro Plan or the benefit or one or the other. Or if you guys had anything other suggestions on a feed! Thanks guy!

What kind of puppy food are you feeding? I like to try to stick with the same brand until I see it is working or not. I have tried a lot of different brands with my weim and same with my old malamute to find the one that worked the best. I feed Pro pLan sensitive stomach as it is what she does the best one. Try the one you feel most comfortable with and switch if need be.

Spend some time surfing the net or flipping bags in the pet store to read ingredient labels and nutritional info.

HEre's the ingredient listing for Hi pro
Beef and bone meal, ground wheat, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, ground yellow corn, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of vitamin E), soybean meal, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, vitamin supplements (A, E, B-12, D-3), DL-Methionine, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, brewers dried yeast, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. W-4293

Crude protein (Min) 27.0%
Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.2%
Crude fat (Min) 15.0%
Calcium (Ca) (Min) 1.0% Crude fiber (Max) 4.0%
Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.8%
Moisture (Max) 12.0%
Vitamin A (Min) 10,000 IU/kg

For Pro Plan's Performance
Chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, potassium chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.
S-4461

Crude Protein (Min) 30.0%
Crude Fat (Min) 20.0%
Crude Fiber (Max) 3.0%
Moisture (Max) 12.0%
Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.8%
Calcium (Ca) (Min) 0.9%
Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.7%
Selenium (Se) (Min) 0.30 mg/kg
Vitamin A (Min) 15,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (Min) 500 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid* (Min) 100 mg/kg

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:43 am

I feed Canidae and have been feeding it for 7 years now. My dogs are healthy and full of energy.

You need to investigate what will be healthy for your dog. Look at the ingredients as we all should with are own food. If the ingredients looks like it should be on the side of a bag of chips it's probably not as healthy for your dog, just as the bag of chips shouldn't be in your daily diet.

Don't go by price because some have the same ingredients for the cheap as they do for the expensive.

I like to look at calories per cup too...I've had friends that have feed they're dogs twice as much with a lower cals per cup dog food. That increases the price of the dog food because your buying more bags. That also increases the clean-up.

These are my opinions and are based on my experiences, you may come to a different conclusion. All that I can say is do your own research and find out what is BEST for your dog. Google Best DOG FOOD and expect to read alot of opinions.GOOD LUCK

gwgdog66 · Post by **gwgdog66** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:51 pm

SlickClowninMillie,

There are a bunch of good feeds out these days. Feed the one you can afford, and is available close to ya. Between the two you mentioned I'd probably go with the Pro Plan formula's first. If it works for your dog then you have a winner

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:01 pm

What he said

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:09 pm

llewgor, If you are only interested in calories, why not feed 50% fat, since fat has more calories? Calories are important, but there are many more important things to consider about nutrition than just calories. Digestibility, assimilation, completeness and balance of formulas for example. The main thing is that most of your quality brands have good products that will work for you. Unless you have special needs, paying more than 40-50 cents a pound is usually silly and unnecessary also.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:12 am

Compare Sams Club Exceed with Pro Plan P, then compare the price. Compare the Exceed Lamb and Rice with Eukanuba L & R. Then compare the price. We love it, cut stools in half.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:40 am

Just got literature from my feedstore on Canidae. I had told someone I would review their formulations, and give my opinion. I think their formulas and ingredients are excellent, but they are pricy. 70 cents a lb and up is more than I would pay.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:38 pm

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:15 pm

Doug, I respect your opinion, but it may be surprising to you that some of us do not agree. Talking about different foods and how dogs do with them may be interesting to some of us. Everyone else can ignore the threads and not bother us with their objectable dribble, as far as I am concerned!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:38 pm

Thanks Doug. I feel the same way. But somehow we keep picking up new people who feel they need to ask the same old questions to those of us that have been here a while. Since I am moderating I have to read them all and often I will respond since it is something I know a bit about. Wish I was as lucky as you and could just ignore the things that don't interest you. Must give you a real good feeling to be able to do that.

Thank you for reading this one though and offering your opinion.

Ezzy

SlickClowninMillie · Post by **SlickClowninMillie** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:36 pm

Jesus I didn't know I was going to cause such a fuss...Thanks to all those you have helped with their opinion. Sorry for being new guy with just stupid questions that apparently have been asked before.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:39 pm

Don't feel bad. Sometimes we have people who get a burr under their saddle and just have tomake comments that aren't needed.

Ezzy

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:56 pm

You didn't with me SlickClowninMillie..However I say again do more research find what you want.... some can't get pass the prices...others don't believe there's any difference and with a lot of the food on the market there isn't ...but ask questions do your research then apply what you've learned and see what works for you and your dogs. Everyone should have a opinion on what they have experience...but you must begin somewhere so do your research and develop your experience and in time you'll have your own opinion to post on dog foods.

The only stupid question is the one that isn't ask..... However there are many stupid answers.

MRockwell · Post by **MRockwell** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:07 pm

SCM,
I'm new here also, and hope not to ruffle any feathers.LOL

I notice from your profile you are a student at Purdue. Go Boilers from an alum, I earned my degree in animal science in '99. Having said that, have you thought about doing some research in your own back yard? There is a great ag school at Purdue, and I wouldn't hesitate to ask some of the faculty on hand. My basic animal nutrition professor, if he is still there, was Professor Cline. I always found they were more than helpful in answering questions.

As for my own experience: I have a 7 year old White German Shepherd whom I started out on Purina. I found a local pet store that recommended Professional brand and switched. The biggest difference I saw was that he didn't eat as much(but maintained weight) and less stool volume. I atribute this to a formulation with no corn and low ash content. About a year ago the pet store closed so I had to find a different brand, and came up with Pro Pac(adult chicken and rice). The ingredient list was almost identical, and he has done just as well.

Four weeks ago I got a Vizsla pup and she is on Pro Pac after one bag of Nutro Lamb&Rice Puppy. I like the results I get with Pro Pac, and the cost is about the same as other comparable feeds. I stay away from any feed that has corn as an ingredient(I have read that V's can have sensitivities to corn).
Whatever your dog does well on should be good enough. As between the two you listed, I would choose ProPlan. Just thought I would add my experience and opinion.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:37 pm

Welcome to the board.

There really is no need to stay away from corn. We put it in the food to provide an excellent source of carbs and vegetable protien. And I think you will find there is no sensitivities that are breed related and it is extrenely rare that any dog is allergic to corn. That kind of comes under the heading of an old wifes tale.

Ezzy

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:35 am

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:40 pm

Some of you will enjoy this info. The Myth About Corn

http://www.beowulfs.com/magazine/corn.htm

RoundRiver Setters · Post by **RoundRiver Setters** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:22 pm

Mike that is a very informative link. Thanks ......Scott

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:45 am

SlickClowninMillie wrote:I have a 5 months old GSP female that I am going to switch over to an adult food. Didn't know if you could tell me the difference between Purino HiPro and Purina Pro Plan or the benefit or one or the other. Or if you guys had anything other suggestions on a feed! Thanks guy!

Its a long thread and looks like it got rather "hot" in here

but I feed exclusively Pro Plan Performance. My dogs look good, I dont have to give them a huge bowl, and their stools are just what I need them to be... firm and not a kennel full after every meal

I guess I just think that what I put in them is what I am gonna get back in health, shiny coats, good weight, etc.

Have tried one of those "buy it at the vet" foods, and don't like it mostly because of the loads of poop to clean up...lol.

Julia

GL · Post by GL » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:25 pm

I think if you asked 10 Professors of Animal Science you would get just as many varried opinions as you are getting here.

I let my dog tell me what she likes and I keep an eye on her to be sure it is doing right by her.

Find a good food you can afford and that she enjoys and if you notice problems then try something else.

For a dog that is not working I think the hi pro foods are a waste and cause more problems then they do good. Different story if the dog gets the exercize to work it off.

Gary

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:34 pm

MikeB wrote: I also would NEVER feed a 5 month old growing large breed pup 30/20 rocket fuel during the most important growth period of it's life. Hi protein and fat are the #1 cause of Pano and other bone growth problems. That is the whole reason many manufactures make Large breed puppy and adult foods. In my opinion it is nothing more than what healthy adult food is at between 23% to 25% protein and 13 to 15 % fat. 24/14 maybe the ideal levels for growing large and giant breed pups.

Mike, I do agree with some of the things you said in this post, but will have to respectfully completely disagree with the above quote. IMO I see absolutely nothing wrong with feeding a growing pup 30/20 'rocket fuel' so long as the feed is structured properly. I fed my pup 30/28. When you upgrade to higher protein and fat, all that really means is your dog will be consuming less quantity. Bone growth problems which you spoke of relate again to poorly structured feeds. The problem arises with inadequate amounts of animal source proteins. Animal source proteins are the proteins needed for tissue building. If tissue can't keep up with the rate of bone growth, the dog is being set up for pending collapse and future problems. Vets routinely advise to restrict food intake in hopes to slow down the rate of bone growth in growing pups in efforts to allow tissue to be able to keep up (lg. breeds). Why? Because they know and it is a self-admission the diet(s) are too weak in animal source proteins for tissue to keep up with bone (often the very diets they recommend). Growing pups shouldn't have to suffer or be restricted in food intake because of improperly structured diets (borderline criminal if you ask me). Growing pups need diets properly structured diets so tissue can keep up with bone. If a 30/20 feed is properly structured with strong concentration of animal source proteins, it will never be a problem. However if the 30/20 feed is loaded up with Gluten source proteins (protein from grain), yes, you can encounter the bone growth problems you mentioned.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:20 pm

Claybuster,

I want to see the research done that backs up your statements. Show me where an amino acid is different when coming from different sources. We all know the body doesn't use protien which is just a name we give to a collection of amino acids that the body needs and uses. It is pretty evident that the efficient way to supply the essential amino acids is to feed a combination of animal and vegetable sourced protien. And it is also pretty well established that rapid growth can cause some problems and aggravate others.

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:49 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Claybuster,

I want to see the research done that backs up your statements.
Ezzy

From the article "How to Choose Your Dogs Food". This relates to what I was discussing in regards to tissue not being able to keep up with bone mass.

HOW THE DEFECTS OF COMMERCIAL NUTRITION ARE EXPRESSED DURING GROWTH
While veterinarians recognize that dogs on commercial rations grow too rapidly for the quality tissue that commercial rations generate they try to slow down the rate of growth rather than intensifying the tissue-building aspects of the ration, which is totally illogical. One must bear in mind that growth is the period in life when nutrient demand is at its greatest. Intentionally failing to provide the nutrients required to meet the demands of growing dogs by recommending foods that are clearly unsatisfactory, or worse yet restricting intake of inadequate foods borders on criminality - particularly when such recommendations are institutionalized. These are not innocent mistakes! They have to do with conflicts of interest. Interfering with growth patterns by restricting food intake can only result in consequences that will plague the animal for the rest of its life or cost it its life. This article has already demonstrated that commercial rations are inadequate for maintenance, in the face of greater demand for nutrients how could the feeding of such a ration be justified? It can’t. Commercial rations cannot be used for growth. Because of this absurd notion that nutrients should be restricted during growth, growth foods today are being produced with fewer calories and nutrients and even higher levels of fiber. Selecting such foods while restricting feed intake is incomprehensible. Food intake must be determined by the individual animal. It is up to the manufacturer to insure nutritional adequacy of the ration. If the food is inadequate (as is apparent from the record number of breakdowns created by commercial rations) it should not be fed at all. Food which includes holistic and veterinary diets should not be double-edged swords. Foods should be properly characterized in energy and in vitally important tissue-building nutrients in the proper ratios to support and foster sound development. Abady growth foods are. They may be the only ones that can support the growth of large and giant breed puppies as well as all other breeds of dog. The first call of the body is for energy (calories). If energy is undersupplied by restricting food intake, whatever small amount of TBN are included in the diet will be used by the body for energy production, making the nutritional situation even worse. Second, the ration must provide all the nutrients the body requires to grow soundly. Restricting food intake can also create stool eating. Stool eating can result in malnutrition and even bloat.

Complete article off their website.
http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/

You want some 30/28 Rocket Fuel that won't hurt you dog?

http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/A ... ngredl.htm

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:06 pm

Claybuster,

You can't use a marketing article put out by a dogfood manufacturer running the competion down as proof or even evidence that what they say has been clinically proven. Advertising is designed by marketing people to sell their product and to try and convince you they know something no one else knows.

What you have stated goes against what we have discovered in the past few years. I think what got them started in researching limited feed for puppies is that in the wild the pups are always thin and hungry but growup with out the problems we have today with pups growing too fast and being too heavy. I know I quit feeding puppy food years ago and have restricted the diet and have had no problems physically with any of the pups or as they have gotten older.

By restricting I mean keeping the pups on the lean side and to keep their appetites sharp. We not only do it with the pups but we have learned it is the best way to grow most any livestock. They growup healthier and mature quicker when they don't have to carry a lot of extra weight and can grow at a steady rate without the rapid growth spurts and then the periods of reduced appetitites we used to see.

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Claybuster,

You can't use a marketing article put out by a dogfood manufacturer running the competion down as proof or even evidence that what they say has been clinicaqlly proved. Advertising is designed by marketing people to sell their product and to try and convince you they know something no one else knows.

What you have stated goes against what we have discovered in the past few years. I think whqat got them started in researching limited feed for puppies is that is the wild the pups are always thin and hungry but growup with out the problems we have today with pups growing too fast and being too heavy. I know I quit feeding puppy food years ago and have restricted the diet and have had no problems physically with any of the pups or as they have gotten older.

By restricting I mean keeping the pups on the lean side and to keep their appetites sharp. We not only do it with the pups but we have learned it is the best way to grow most any livestock. They growup healthier and mature quicker when they don't have to carry a lot of extra weight and can grow at a steady rate without the rapid growth spurts and then the periods of reduced appetitites we used to see.

Ezzy

I don't think Abady spends much in the form of marketing and advertising.
They just got the website recently. You want find it in many stores. Grant money for your clinical studies is put up by the big names in the business, Mr. Purina, Mr. Iams, etc. Robert Abady is a biochemist doing independent research the past 30 years.

Yes, it goes against what the industry want you to believe, that omnivore nutrition is appropriate for your carnivore.

I free feed product at 800 cals per cup. Food and water available 24/7, and my dog is lean. Feed right and they won't carry the extra weight.

Here's a quote I like from the Raw article:

In the 50s, the largest producer of dry diets circulated an absurd notion that dogs consumed mostly the plant matter contained in the internal organs of their prey, justifying the production of kibble composed mostly of highly processed grain. This mistake is now being applied to try to justify the use of voluminous amounts of raw vegetables which are included in today’s raw diets. Grain can be used by dogs if it is highly processed. Raw vegetables cannot, regardless of whether they are masticated by the animal or ground mechanically. In addition, the pulp produced is not suitable to the feeding of carnivores.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:08 pm

I just got through looking through all of the material put out by the Abady dogfood company and their feed looks like it could be a good feed but their claim they can stop HD, bloat, diabetes, and many other illnesses and physical problems ranks them pretty far down on the accurate, responsible, and believeable ladder of advertising.

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:41 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I just got through looking through all of the material put out by the Abady dogfood company and their feed looks like it could be a good feed but their claim they can stop HD, bloat, diabetes, and many other illnesses and physical problems ranks them pretty far down on the accurate, responsible, and believeable ladder of advertising.
Ezzy

Ezzy,
I know it is hard to believe but it is what they claim. I don't really have a problem with it because for some reason the stuff just makes sense if you ask me. Dogs do best with diets low in carb, low fiber diets. 92.4 % of the 30 % protein in "classic granular" is animal source, and that is one of their weakest formulas in the granular line.

In regards to problems like HD...well that to me makes sense also. Wild dogs and other animals don't suffer from these problems. They eat diets nature intended them to eat. It is easy to blame something like 'genetics' when looking for answers. However, although not market under the holistic theme, Abady is about solving problems brought about by deficiencies in commercial nutrition. You don't have to feed Abady to solve these problems, but then you face the added cost of supplementing commercial diets with your store bought poultry, meats, and fish. What they are saying is properly nourished bitches will yield puppies with text-book perfect hips each and every time, and so on down the line. Eliminating HD happens over time, not something instantaneously.

Many have issues with the Abady approach to feeding. Much of that has to do with aesthetic appeal of ingredients. People like to feed their dogs like they would feed themselves. Veggies are good, fiber, carbs, all good stuff, must be good for my dog as well. Not for my dog. I don't think she should be eating cranberries, blueberries, apples, beans, oats, etc.
I want chicken by-product meal, meat and bone meal, lots of it and top it all off with good old-fashioned pork fat lard. Lard is the most expensive fat for a manufacturer to purchase. People will assert they don't want to see 'generic fat' in their dogs food. Fat, regardless of type is an absolute essential in dog food. I don't care what type of fat, it has to be in there if there is any shot for the food to be adequate, even if it is road-kill fat. Fat is a must.

Well, I'm going to bail out on this one. I'm new here and don't want to rock the boat in regards to nutrition. I don't sell the stuff and I don't want to give anyone the impression I am pushing this product. It has been the exclusive diet of my dog now for 5 years and it works well for her and I am pleased with my results. We all feed what we feel is best for our pets, and that's they way it ought to be.

Charlie

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:18 am

claybuster, have you had your dogs hips xrayed?

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:09 pm

slistoe wrote:claybuster, have you had your dogs hips xrayed?

No, why do you ask? Do you think she may I have something I don't know about, like HD? My dog only goes to the vet for vaccines like rabies shots when they come due. Outside of that, no need for any vet care.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:18 pm

Just curious. What with having everything covered by feeding the right food it only made sense to me that there would be no need to xray at all. Delusions are better if no facts get in the way.

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:53 am

slistoe wrote:Just curious. What with having everything covered by feeding the right food it only made sense to me that there would be no need to xray at all. Delusions are better if no facts get in the way.

Delusions??

I'm confused; do people go out and invest in a set of x-rays if everything seems normal? Sounds like looking to spend money for no reason. My old dog had seemed like all was normal until about age 8, then the hips started to go. By age 10 I was carrying him in and out in my arms to go pee. When the hips are shot you'll know and you won't need a set a x-rays to tell you that. If you invest in a puppy that is showing signs of bad hips, you got a problem.

I’ll be back after my unscheduled appendectomy. Just going in to see if they'll take me today. I don't need it anyway.

TheShadow · Post by **TheShadow** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:02 am

there is a very popular feed store around me who caters to hunting dogs. He is an "all natural" type feed store and only will carry these types of foods. He has a lot of info on the corn/soy/by-products, etc... and advocates against it. He was able to change a lot of the hunters minds on Purina and these guys are all buying brands like:

Orijen
EVO
Taste of the Wild
Wilderness
Insticnt
Wellness
Horizon

and a bunch more ultra expensive feed to moderaltely expensive feed. I went there and talked to this guy who has a choco lab, black lab, GSP, and English Pointer. His dogs are top performers and he is like some kinda doctor who hangs up their awards around the store. Pretty impressive. Cool pictures shower this store. He has 4 LCDs around the store that play those old tv shows A Dog's Life, Bird Dogs Forever, Sporting Gun Dogs, and a bunch of other bird hunting shows I've never seen. Sells all the tools of the trade from ecollars/fences to collars and stuff. This guy has a knack for "sales". BUT he claims he has spent years in studying dog nutrition and when he talks he really is convincing. Is he more in it for money?

Now a 29lb bag of Orijen (which is the latest fad around here for hunters and pet dog owners alike) goes for $60. $60!!!!!!! Made in Canada. Grainless. The guy can't keep this food on the shelf. He said he has angry customers requesting he keep more in stock. Said it was his #1 seller for the past 6mo. Who can afford this?

I feed Canidae and have wondered about Innova Adult. The breeder I got my dog from fed Canidae so I stuck with it. I don't think I could ever afford Orijen. I also feel better with sticking to the holistic foods, it makes me feel better so that is that. My dog does well on it and its all she ever knows so...

Pick a food that works with your dog. This is a war that will never be won. Do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:25 am

Do your own research, and come to your own conclusions

Does this mean ignore all of the work done by our universities and private companies.\?

It would make a whole lot more sense to believe the research already done, feed your dog a good food that conforms to that research, and you spend your time thinking about how to train or just getting out with your dog and enjoying life.

Everytime I read these posts about dog food I wonder what it would be like if people did the same for their babies and young children. Can't you just see it where one mother says she only feeds soys milk because cows milk isn't good for a baby or someone only feeds meat since vegetables aren't good or maybe we decide to feed only food without fiber because we don't like to change diapers. Wonder where that leads?

Ezzy

TheShadow · Post by **TheShadow** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:36 am

everyone has an opinion and belief. so i do not see a point in trying to prove someone else wrong or try to "show them the light" when they are dead set on their choice. if they feed a good food or if they feed Ol Roy (yes I know two hunters that do) then so be it...

and the comment about changing diapers, its not uncommon

Gun Dog Forum

New food for my GSP!!! Opinions please!

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Re: New food for my GSP!!! Opinions please!

Re: New food for my GSP!!! Opinions please!