Anyone try any of these dog foods ?

CMJ76 · Post by **CMJ76** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:56 pm

Hi, I was wondering if anyone has tried any of these brands of dry dog foods and which ones are better to feed a 9 mo GSP ?
-Kent Active Dog
-Retreiver High Protein
-Purina Hi Pro
-Diamond Hi Energy
-Diamond Performance
-Diamond Extreme Athlete
any information will greatly be appreciated.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:11 pm

I mainly feed Diamond Premium, but have fed a bag of their Hi-energy and their Performance. Any one of the three would work good for you, but I would probably feed the Performance during high exercise periods. There are lots of good commercial feeds including the others mentioned.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:45 pm

I have fed many, many tons of Diamond Adult premium, Diamond Performance and Extreme athlete with great results for many years.

The Diamond High energy is a lower quality feed that some dogs do ok on, but I had a lot of trouble with diarreha and soft stools with it.

For most people the Diamond Premium Adult is going to provide all the nutrition you'll ever need and at a very reasonable price. CR

Chaingang · Post by **Chaingang** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:51 pm

Have not used the Kent Active dog, but am currently feeding my younger dog "level 3" of the new Native line of performance feeds by Kent. So far I like it.

3 Joes · Post by **3 Joes** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:31 pm

I feed the diamond extreme athlete and have had great results with it. I actually feed less and my dogs look better.

47sgs · Post by **47sgs** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:54 am

You might look at www.dogfoodanalysis.com. They evaluate each dog food by content, and rate them on 6 different levels as to which is best for your dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:32 pm

You might look at www.dogfoodanalysis.com. They evaluate each dog food by content, and rate them on 6 different levels as to which is best for your dog.

I wouldn't pay much attention to these ratings. They are very incomplete and are promoting a couple of brands it seems.

Ezzy

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
You might look at www.dogfoodanalysis.com. They evaluate each dog food by content, and rate them on 6 different levels as to which is best for your dog.
I wouldn't pay much attention to these ratings. They are very incomplete and are promoting a couple of brands it seems.

Ezzy

Ditto that. I've only fact-checked one brand's evaluation, but they were so far from the truth that it would be funny - if some poor souls weren't buying their tripe.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:19 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
You might look at www.dogfoodanalysis.com. They evaluate each dog food by content, and rate them on 6 different levels as to which is best for your dog.
I wouldn't pay much attention to these ratings. They are very incomplete and are promoting a couple of brands it seems.

Ezzy

Absolutely! Every one of those I've ever seen is set up to promote one specific brand. CR

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:20 am

Their ratings may be ok if you agree with their criteria and standards. You can find some of the foods we use if you want to go back several pages, ie 4 star, but certain foods seem to be on the first page. Methinks there is an ulterior reason. :roll:

47sgs · Post by **47sgs** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:11 am

I think you are giving these guys a bit of a bad wrap. The people doing the analysis are a group of volunteers from www.boxerworld.com, a large dog forum. Read about them and see what you think. As far as I can tell, they have no affiliation with anyone. They've put alot of effort into comparing content, content which the manufacturer may or may not give as accurate. It's alot more effort than we as individuals can or are willing to put into it. Maybe the fact certain foods or brands keep ending up rated better, is because they are.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:27 am

47sgs,

put alot of effort into comparing content, content which the manufacturer may or may not give as accurate.

Where did this come from? I see no indication of how much effort was put in and no record of accuracy in their anaylsis. However, I do know the manufacturers stated contents are checked for accuracy several times a year by the state and/or the federal agencies in charge, Our state people were in checking weights and sampling the feed in the warehouse at least every three months and they also checked and sampled feed in the retail outlets. Was no quicker or better way to get shut down than to mis-represent what or how much was in the feed. I could go back and find our results on every run we made and find testing results from the state on many of them also. What is stated on the label is what is in the bag.

Ezzy

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am

Just one of the problems is that they don't really look at actual content but assume the worst case allowable by AFFCO labling regulations.

Any meat not listed as a "meal," for instance, is assumed by the site's "reviewer" to be listed in its pre-cooked, water-inclusive form, when companies are often actually listing it by weight after processing and "as fed". (Marketers know "meat" sells better than "meal".)

Another example would be down-grading feeds for listing "animal fat," which could be generic, but taking time to check with the mfg might also reveal it to be chicken fat, which would get high marks. (Pro Plan, for instance, lists "animal fat" but uses the fat of whatever the formula's primary protein source is.)

And the "reviewer" suffers misunderstanding as to what some other ingredients actually are and/or their nutritional values.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:37 am

Rick,

Any meat not listed as a "meal," for instance, is assumed by the site's "reviewer" to be listed in its pre-cooked, water-inclusive form, when companies are often actually listing it by weight after processing and "as fed". (Marketers know "meat" sells better than "meal".)

Your points are well taken. In the examples you list the feed is actually better than listed and the rules give you more leeway on the plus side of some things. But in todays atmosphere of thinking everyone is trying to take advantage of you and the need for everyone to think what they have is better than anything else you don't get far trying to explain to people how or why dogfood is formulated or manufactured. We have many people who think there dogs should have only human grade feed. I guess it makes them feel better but I always chuckle when I see that as all I can think about is what if the dogs were in charge and they decided that their people should only eat doggy grade feed. Too bad we cant just let everything eat what they like instead of us thinking we know better than them.

Ezzy

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:28 am

ezzy333 wrote: We have many people who think there dogs should have only human grade feed. I guess it makes them feel better but I always chuckle when I see that as all I can think about is what if the dogs were in charge and they decided that their people should only eat doggy grade feed. Too bad we cant just let everything eat what they like instead of us thinking we know better than them.

Ezzy

You know if you put some fresh T bone steak next to a fresh steaming pile of "horse apples" I'd say the odds are at least fifty/fifty the average dog will eat the horse apples first... CR

SouthDakotaBound · Post by **SouthDakotaBound** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:42 am

i know its expensive but my chessue will get Eukanuba. Eukanuba goes the extra mile for your dog with great nutrition.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:12 pm

Euk has made mine poop like custard machines and fart like paper mills - but others apparently do well on it.

SouthDakotaBound · Post by **SouthDakotaBound** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:41 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Euk has made mine poop like custard machines and fart like paper mills - but others apparently do well on it.

Haha Rick you are a class act... love reading your posts.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:54 pm

Probably a pretty low-class act. But I have tried a number of highly touted feeds only to find too much of most of them ended up on the lawn, rather than being used by the dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:34 pm

i know its expensive but my chessue will get Eukanuba. Eukanuba goes the extra mile for your dog with great nutrition.

Explain to me what they do extra that others don't.

Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:01 pm

Ezzy, You know I like good quality food also, but we both know you can get it without paying high prices. Some people just like to believe the Hype. Some people feed puppy food which is more expensive and not any better, and they may feed it for 8-12 months. Oh well, each to their own. :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:27 pm

Plus this is the company that was supporting HSUS, the worlds biggest and riches anti-hunting organization. I don't consider that going the extra mile and I find no evidence their feed is better than many others and probably worse than quite a few.

But there may be something I missed and am always open to being taught something I didn't know.

Ezzy

SouthDakotaBound · Post by **SouthDakotaBound** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
i know its expensive but my chessue will get Eukanuba. Eukanuba goes the extra mile for your dog with great nutrition.
Explain to me what they do extra that others don't.

Ezzy

You like to question me dontcha?? I never said that the others don't... I'm sure others do and I am sure that other companies do make a great food. Go to Eukanuba's website, that says a lot about how many tests they go through. They have a small video of the ingredients that goes into their food.

Purina PP first ingredient is chicken. BUT, that chicken is at least 60% water. Once that chicken goes through the extruder (dog food maker) that water is cooked out....samething happens to Eukanuba.....BUT Eukanuba knows that....so they follow that up with "chicken by product meal". This is chicken that has already been cooked so what you put in, is what you get out....unlike regular "chicken".

Purina on the other hand follows that up with a very inexpensive product called "Corn Gluten Meal". This is a inexpensive way to say "hey look we have 30% protein just like Eukanuba, but look how much cheaper we are".

Think of it like Meat Loaf....It's all meat loaf, some just has more hamburger than others.

There are two basic differences in feeding theory between the two companies. Eukanuba started as a premium dog food...then offered some mediocre models (Iams). Purina started offering a mediocre
dog food, then decided to come get that upper end market in the late 80's...(Pro-Plan)
Eukanuba is pushing, pulling and fighting every single day to try and create a better dog food. Purina is pushing, pulling, and fighting everyday to sell more dog food.

Don't take it the wrong way Ezzy...My lab eats it and loves it. His teeth is a lot whiter and he is more built. He's 14 years old, and I can tell he has more youth in his step than before.

check this video out. http://us.eukanuba.com/EukGlobal/GLOBAL ... ntAnalyzer

Just check out the website. www.eukanuba.com. This website has lots of info on dog nutrition.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:27 pm

Are you telling me they use raw chicken? Wonder how they mix that into the meal?

Is the other feeds we make that go through an extruder really dog food since an extruder is a dog food maker?

Why does the Eukanuba list show corn gluten as an excellent source of protien? And how much cheaper is it than a by-product meal?

Purina started making dogfood back years ago and probably had the best food on the market. They have continued since that time researching dog foods and are still the leading manufacturer I believe plus have the leading research facility in the country. They have been a strong supporter of Field Trials and sporting dogs through out the country. Eukanuba is a recent comer to the doggy world and has been a strong supporter of HSUS who is the leading animal rights group in the country. As far as basic differences in feeding theories I doubt if there is much difference in any company. But I have not had the opportunity to sit in their board rooms so I cant really say if anyone is pushing, pulling, and fighting except by the things the two companies do and support.

There is a reason Purina is No.1 and it has to do with which company has shown a willingness to support our dogs with programs and a quality dogfood. Write and ask Eukanuba to donate to your hunting club and see the answer you get. Might convince you all of the pushing, pulling, and fighting they are doing is going the wrong way.

Ezzy

shets114 · Post by **shets114** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:08 pm

You touched on it but Euk puts stuff in the food to make the dogs teeth white.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:15 pm

Purina on the other hand follows that up with a very inexpensive product called "Corn Gluten Meal". This is a inexpensive way to say "hey look we have 30% protein just like Eukanuba, but look how much cheaper we are".

Not that I'm a "purina guy" (I'm not) but corn gluten meal is not "cheaper" it's expensive and it's the most highly digestible source of protien a dog can eat, higher in fact than pure meat of any sort.... . CR

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:31 pm

CR,

Don't confuse this poster with facts. Wonder where all of this misinformation comes from. It amazes me how people can be misled so easily.

Ezzy

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:49 am

Casey, you have been misinformed. Pro Plan lists its chicken "as fed," not pre-processing. And your presentation of Purina as other than strongly research oriented is incredibly ignorant. Believe you've been listening to the cheerleaders for a Eukanuba supported team...

But it's also my understanding Eukanuba hasn't supported anti-hunting causes in quite some time, either, and claimed having done so was the inadvertent result of trying to do a good thing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:59 am

I heard that too and then found out they were still on their board. I hope they saw the light! Just don't know. I better not mention it again till I find out for sure.

Just made me wonder when I found they go the extra mile which direction they were going.

Ezzy

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:31 am

Since my dogs have not done well on Eukanuba, I've not followed their HSUS saga closely, and "my understanding" of it may well be incorrect. Dunno.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:47 am

Rick, what kind of a dog is that in your Avatar? Is it an Elkhound or something? I mean the one on my left as I'm looking at it.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:20 am

big steve46 wrote:Rick, what kind of a dog is that in your Avatar? Is it an Elkhound or something? I mean the one on my left as I'm looking at it.

Coyote. Here are some action shots of him:

And proof of his prowess:

We ate like fat cats that night!

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:25 pm

Nice! I'm impressed! Nothing wrong with having a good " mouser. "

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:47 am

big steve46 wrote:Nothing wrong with having a good " mouser. "

Actually, there is if he's also a good snaker, which the coyote was. He became quite adept at catching shoulderless tatailles large and small, which isn't a good thing in cottonmouth country, so we've shut down all "mousing" since those pictures were taken.

PowerPoint · Post by **PowerPoint** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:52 am

I usually feed Black Gold Ultimate preformance,and thay are one of my sponsors for our video production company,but all their products have gone up almost 5 dollars a bag the last yr. I was getting the Black bag one yr ago for 16 dollars,now its 21.It passed up Diamond which I used to feed.Ive had good results with several of the premium "preformace"brands but Black Gold was kicking but on their prices.Now,not so much.Has anyone else seen their favorite food price shoot up? 20 dollars for a 50 lb bag of dog food,much like alot of other things these days is frickin REDICULOUS!

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:15 am

PP, $20 for 50 lbs is a lot less than a bunch of the gullible people pay on these boards. There's a lot of people who seem to think that they are not doing right by their dogs unless they pay $.75 to $1.25 per lb for their dog food. They've bought into advertiser's hype. :roll:

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:45 am

What formula PP (presumably Pro Plan) are you getting for $20 a 50lb bag - and where?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:56 am

Is PP here "Pro Plan" or does it refer to the new member "PowerPoint".

I think Steve feeds Diamond. From that and some context, I think the PP is "PowerPoint".

Greg J.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:14 am

Gotcha. Never was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

And wish my dogs had done better on relatively inexpensive Diamond 30/20 and LB puppy than was the case...

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:17 am

Yes, I was addressing to PowerPoint. I do feed Diamond, but several of the good brands like Black Gold, Nutrena, and Purina and others make good products reasonably priced. ProPlan is good but slightly overpriced for me. I don't field trial, so I don't feel obligated to pay back Purina. My biggest problem is that some companies like Eukonoba for example charge high prices for food no better than what I feed because people buy into their hype. We can all tell good and bad stories about any good food by the way, but the comparative facts remain.

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:37 am

Steve, it may tickle you to know that Eukanuba, Arkat, PMI and others shared what I felt Diamond's greatest shortcoming: the production of copious stools and paint-peeling gas. (All share the common link of using beet pulp for fiber, which feeds they've done better on haven't, so I'm thinking it may act as a laxative.) Just too much potential nutrition winding up on the lawn. And there's no savings in that.

(And, yes, I tried cutting portions to firm things up - but the dogs went to seed first.)

Trust your mileage has varied.

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:06 am

big steve46 wrote:Yes, I was addressing to PowerPoint. I do feed Diamond, but several of the good brands like Black Gold, Nutrena, and Purina and others make good products reasonably priced. ProPlan is good but slightly overpriced for me. I don't field trial, so I don't feel obligated to pay back Purina. My biggest problem is that some companies like Eukonoba for example charge high prices for food no better than what I feed because people buy into their hype. We can all tell good and bad stories about any good food by the way, but the comparative facts remain.

Higher costs should mean higher cals. I pay more for my food, but then again I'm putting out about 800 cals per cup. Diamond's strongest formula looks like it can put out 440, yet most of their products seem to average in the 300's for cals per cup. I may pay more, but I use less product. A dog will eat what it takes to meet their caloric intake needs. You may need 3 cups to meet that need where I would only need one. Cost is typically reflective of what the feed can deliver.

Charlie

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:50 am

claybuster_aa wrote:....Cost is typically reflective of what the feed can deliver.

You have a few assertions that I don't agree with:

First, that caloric consumption is driven by caloric need. Look around: fat dogs, fat people, liposuction, gastric bypass surgery, belly bands, diet industry.... Isn't it rather obvious that hunger is not a good indicator of caloric need?

Second, that cost is primarily driven by the quality of the food. In truth, I think you will find that transporation costs are the largest component. Of that, fuel has been the the most expensive component for quite some time.

Third, that you are are coming out ahead on the higher cost food. I know a couple of dozen professional trainers and handlers. They have a tight margin. If they could get away with less food cost by feeding one of the niche foods, they would all flock to the food so fast that there would be nothing but a sonic boom behind them. Instead, I think you will find that the foods are marketed to and used by higher-income individuals that want "the best" for their dog and don't mind paying for it.

Third-corallary, that there is any performance edge to feeding pointing dogs high-cost foods. If there was any performance edge to feeding a high-cost food to pointing dogs, competitive handlers who live and die by the ability to win would have flocked to it in droves just as the sled dog professionals have all flocked to basically the same "formula".

Fourth, that there is any direct correlation between high-cost foods and lower veterinary costs. There are no facts to back that up. From an anecdotal perspective, my experience is that my dogs have no issues, seem to live long and healthy lives and pass away from old age. So, I pretty much have to stick to what I'm doing.

FWIW,

Greg J.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:14 am

Greg, You are very correct especially since you agree with me. Once you get to the Diamond Premium (26-18) level or higher, the dogs will do fine with good stools. The lower quality products such as OlRoy etc will require a greater volume and put out bigger looser stools. Some dogs don't do well on any particular brand. I don't worry about my dog's gas since he never comes into the house. My wifey does dislike mine however!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:30 pm

Claybuster I'm curious just how many performance dogs have you been feeding and over what period of time?

It sounds to me like either most of your education on dog food has come from what you read on various websites promoting over priced feeds, or you are a salesman for the same.

I feed 30-50 dogs every day 365 days a year. Over the last fifteen years I've fed over 500 different dogs that were getting their butt's worked off for at least 90 days at a time.

I've had DOZENS of dogs live to be extremely healthy, active, and even reproductive beyond 12 years of age.

What I have found is that Diamond Adult Premium, which you would consider to be a low priced low quality feed, does a far better job of providing for a quality life throughout the life of the dog than do feeds costing twice as much. CR

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:28 pm

I know that Ol' Roy Hi Pro is now $20.50 for a 50lb. bag. When I see that I don't have as hard a time paying for my Black Gold. I was at the Black Gold office in Vienna, Missouri and they are selling the 26-18 black bag retail for $19.25 a 50lb..

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:23 pm

You pay what I pay for my Diamond 26-18. WalMart is high on all their feeds, and most of them are not as good as what we feed.

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:21 pm

WildRose wrote:Claybuster I'm curious just how many performance dogs have you been feeding and over what period of time?

It sounds to me like either most of your education on dog food has come from what you read on various websites promoting over priced feeds, or you are a salesman for the same.

I feed 30-50 dogs every day 365 days a year. Over the last fifteen years I've fed over 500 different dogs that were getting their butt's worked off for at least 90 days at a time.

I've had DOZENS of dogs live to be extremely healthy, active, and even reproductive beyond 12 years of age.

What I have found is that Diamond Adult Premium, which you would consider to be a low priced low quality feed, does a far better job of providing for a quality life throughout the life of the dog than do feeds costing twice as much. CR

You have fed a lot more dogs than I have. Zoe has been on Abady Granular for 5.5 years, steady, no mixing with other feeds. She will be 6 come Sept., and she my first hunting dog.

I don't sell the feed. I don't know where anyone can get it, all I know is they have a website and a phone number. I like what I am doing, just as easy as feeding kibble. I don't want to mess with "raw feeding" which is very popular these days.

I wouldn't consider my wealthy and live pretty much pay check to pay check. I costs me about $25 a month to feed two dogs, a Yorkie and a Llewellin. The two cats get Wal-Mart Special Kitty. The $25 a month to feed the dogs I can do, but the 100 bucks a week in gas is starting to hurt.

I never labeled your feed or anyone’s as "low quality" or "low priced" and made any references in regards to toasted cereal type products.

I use to be strictly a Purina feeder before I moved into the Granular stuff.

In regards to all the other stuff, I was merely pointing out what I'm doing is 800 Cals per cup as compared to Diamond, so I feed less product. If Diamond was 800 Cals per cup, the bag of feed would last you twice as long and you would be paying the same as me. Cost is reflective of the cals, the energy the feed can put out. In essence, we all pay about the same in the long run.

My father-in-law feeds Purina 'Come and Get It'. All his dogs have had good long lives. I don't care about any of that stuff, I’ll take the rocket fuel.

Charlie

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:59 am

Claybuster, I feed the same feed that CR feeds. I presently have only one dog, a Llewellin. I recently had to put my G. Shepherd down. Calories are important, but there are other things to consider in a good feed than just calories. Sources of calories make a difference regarding utilization. It is true that better quality feeds will require less volume fed. There are many good commercial feeds that are cost effective. There are also some that are over-priced for what you get. If you are doing well with what you are feeding, more power to you. Best regards,

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:20 pm

Clay while I'm sure you are doing all you can to do the best you can for your dog you've apparently swallowed a lot of hype which has been presented to you as fact while doing your research.

Greg made this comment on the previous page. ....

Third, that you are are coming out ahead on the higher cost food. I know a couple of dozen professional trainers and handlers. They have a tight margin. If they could get away with less food cost by feeding one of the niche foods, they would all flock to the food so fast that there would be nothing but a sonic boom behind them. Instead, I think you will find that the foods are marketed to and used by higher-income individuals that want "the best" for their dog and don't mind paying for it.

At any given time I'm feeding 30-50 of my own dogs and 20-30 client dogs. You won't find anyone who's dogs work harder or more often consistently than these dogs so good nutrition is absolutely key to what I do. At the same time I'm on a tight budget but don't mind paying what I need to to get good nutrition.

That means what I'm looking for is the best overall nutrition I can get for my dogs at the most reasonable price.

By far what I have found is that by using the Diamond and Arkat products I get exactly that, great value in nutrition for my dollars spent.

I Paid 720.00 for a load of dog food yesterday. if I honestly believed I could pay the same for 40% as much feed while getting better nutrition out of that feed I would definitely do so.

The fact is these designer brand dog foods don't offer anything better, don't have the proven track record that companies like Diamond and Pro Plan have, and don't actually offer what they have sold you which is "better nutrition at twice the price".

None of us on here have anything to gain by trying to persuade people to use what we use, we're just trying to help people like you figure out that you can feed just as well or better at about half the price. CR