Dog food around the country

[MikeB]

Here is some info on Beet Pulp ...

Beet pulp is the residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned, freed from crowns, leaves, and sand, and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. Beet pulp is added to some pet foods to act as a fibrous stool hardener.

Here is another explanation. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... cleid=2705

And this one too.... http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/b ... p_myth.htm

[Rick Hall]

Mike, I've read that and other fine things about beet pulp. But that didn't change the diffence between the effects of Eukanuba, Arkat, PMI, Diamond and a local feed store lable with it on my dogs vs feeds without it.

[MikeB]

Oh Rick, I didn't post that because of your post about your dogs. I posted it for those that don't know why beet pulp is or is not in dog foods. So what did you finally find to work for all your dogs? I use Canidae and they don't use it in their formulas. I have never had a dog that had a problem with it.

[claybuster_aa]

After two rounds of skeet today (47), I stopped in a local store TSC (tractor supply co). I noticed they carried amongst a lot of other brands, DIAMOND feeds. I jotted down some prices. All prices are for 40-pound bags. I know this is a popular feed so I wanted to share the prices with you.

Lamb and Rice: $25.99
Maintenance: $18.99
Performance: $25.99
Naturals: $25.99
Premium: $21.99
Puppy: $26.98
Lg Breed Puppy: $26.98

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs ... 0551_10001

Charlie

[big steve46]

Prices are around 10% less at our feedstore. Orshleins farm store is higher, about like your prices. I think the privately owned stores are a bit less usually. Also, there is variance in different parts of the country. Of course, some people have to play "big shot" and have their feed shipped to them!

[Rick Hall]

Oh Rick, I didn't post that because of your post about your dogs. I posted it for those that don't know why beet pulp is or is not in dog foods. So what did you finally find to work for all your dogs? I use Canidae and they don't use it in their formulas. I have never had a dog that had a problem with it.

I've been happiest with Pro Plan and Purina One. But I've not fed more than four dogs at a time, and don't doubt that there dogs that would do better on something else.

[big steve46]

Canadae looks like a very good formula. What's the cost for a 40 lb bag? My feedstore carries it, but I can't remember if I checked the price. I'm gonna check out BlackGold today in a town 25 miles away. More to follow.

[MikeB]

In my area of North Los Angeles County Canidae went up to $34.99 for 40# for the All Life Stage 4 meat formula. That is their original starting formula. I still think in the super premium class of food it is the most affordable food available in 40# bags. I called the feed store I used to trade at when I lived in the country 1994 - 2002 and the Diamond Large breed 60 plus 40# is $28.99, Diamond Naturals Chicken/rice 40# is 27.99. I may test the Diamond Naturals next and see if I like the results. With only one dog now that eats 3 cups a day I don't turn over food as often as I used to.

[lvrgsp]

Steve, what did you find about Black Gold today?


Chip

[Sonny Hawkins]

EZZY, What are you saying? My queston is, Beet Pulp, Is it good,just ok, or bad, for this to be in Dog Food?----------Sonny , ------------------ Does pro-plan have beet pulp?

[big steve46]

I checked out Canadae all-life in a farmstore. $28 for 40 lbs.. Not bad for a good feed. Black Gold in black bag about $22 for 50 lbs.. BG had meat meal for first ingedient which is good as far as i know. I usually use a feed with chicken by-products meal as first ingredient. Ezzy, my expertise is in human nutrition mostly, so what do you think about the different meats? Others can give opinions also.

[MikeB]

Yes that is the question. What is MEAT meal? In the old days with Iams they used Pork as their meal meal. Thanks for the info on prices. I must cost much more to get CANIDAE shipped to CA from the mill. Pro Plan uses Corn Bran I wonder if that is their fiber source?

[Rick Hall]

EZZY, What are you saying? My queston is, Beet Pulp, Is it good,just ok, or bad, for this to be in Dog Food?----------Sonny , ------------------ Does pro-plan have beet pulp?

I'm not Ezzy, but I can tell you I feel that my dogs are better off without it, and Pro Plan does not have it. If you try a beet pulp using product and find your dogs dumping great piles of potential nutrients on the lawn, consider trying a feed without it to see if they'll utilize more of what they're fed. But if your dogs do well on beet pulp, they do well on beet pulp.

[ezzy333]

Sonny,

Beet pulp is a good ingredient. It is a fiber source and the dog does not digest it but it feeds the bacteria in the gut so you get better digestion of the other ingredients. I have not noticed any difference in the amount of stool but if there is a difference like Rich Hall says it isn't any potential food going to waste but rather just the beet pulp and it swells as it absorbs water and that helps clean the intestine and may appear to be more waste but really isn't, just more fiber.

My advice is to not worry too much either way as there are a lot of other more important ingredients. I do love it though when the dog whelps. It helps satify the bitch and cools her at the same time to reduce swelling and inflamation that leads to problemsmilking and the possibility of mastitis.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

EZZY, What are you saying? My queston is, Beet Pulp, Is it good,just ok, or bad, for this to be in Dog Food?----------Sonny , ------------------ Does pro-plan have beet pulp?

Sonny,
I can direct you to some very informative yet but what some would consider highly controversial information in regards to Beet Pulp. I do not think this information would be welcome here on this forum, so I would rather not post it directly. I will however forward to you what I have in a PM. Because the info comes from my feed maker, it can be construed as "hype", "marketing", "deception", etc., therefore sometimes it's best not to post the controversial information that would go against the grain so to speak. If you want what I have, let me know.

Both Diamond and Pro Plan contain Beet Pulp, along with many, many other commercial feeds. Both Diamond and Pro Plan are feeds many have had good results with, but IMO, that has nothing to do with Beet Pulp, but another controversial ingredient to some respects. I have fed feeds with Beet Pulp for over 10 years and never had a problem per se with its use.
Knowing what I know today about Beet Pulp, it is not something IMO I would welcome or want to see in my dogs diet.

Charlie

[glk7243]

Both Diamond and Pro Plan contain Beet Pulp,
Charlie

Pro Plan does NOT contain beet pulp.

Regards
Gary

[claybuster_aa]

Both Diamond and Pro Plan contain Beet Pulp,
Charlie

Pro Plan does NOT contain beet pulp.

Regards
Gary

These varities DO contain Beet Pulp, however I noted some varities do not:

http://www.proplan.com/products/BeefRice_DryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/LambRice_DryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/LargeBr ... ryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/Natural ... ryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/Natural ... ryDog.html

[ezzy333]

Charlie,

Are you trying to say that your dog food manufacturer knows more than the rest of us about dog food? Glad you didn't let that out of the bag while I was still working. And all of those people who teach and do the research will be so disappointed. I can guess what you are going to send as its pretty easy to read what your manufacturer was promoting and how he was trying to discredit everyone else. I think Sonny is a little more in tune with dogs and dog food than he has led you to believe.

Ezzy

[glk7243]

These varities DO contain Beet Pulp, however I noted some varities do not:

http://www.proplan.com/products/BeefRice_DryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/LambRice_DryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/LargeBr ... ryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/Natural ... ryDog.html

http://www.proplan.com/products/Natural ... ryDog.html

I stand corrected.
I was just going by the bags in the garage.
Gary

[claybuster_aa]

Charlie,

Are you trying to say that your dog food manufacturer knows more than the rest of us about dog food? Glad you didn't let that out of the bag while I was still working. And all of those people who teach and do the research will be so disappointed. I can guess what you are going to send as its pretty easy to read what your manufacturer was promoting and how he was trying to discredit everyone else. I think Sonny is a little more in tune with dogs and dog food than he has led you to believe.

Ezzy

Now why on earth would I think a biochemist that has been researching, developing, and manufacturing feeds for 37 years (RIP) actually know more than you folks? How silly of me.

[ezzy333]

How about someone who has been involved in breeding,training, researching, formulation, manufacturing, and quality assurance for over 50 years. And the different biochemist, though we called them nutritionist, that took part in all of itctoo. Bet you would really enjoy a trip to the research farm but I don't think you would believe everything we proved with the research being done. Oh well, guess we will just have to suffer with our second class statis. But it sure does hurt to think I wasted my whole life. Oh if only I had the chance to join a little one man company trying to carve a niche in the feed industry, maybe I too would be consider reasonably educated instead of wasting my time at the U of I.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Here is some of this controversial material. From the Abady website: "While the percentage of fiber in most dry rations appear to be innocent enough, being in the 3 to 5 percent range when analyzed correctly is actually monstrous. The materials from which fiber is derived like beet pulp, tomato pomace or cellulose flour are light and occupy a large volume, somewhat like comparing the volume occupied by a quantity of lead to an identical amount of feathers. While the 5% fiber content, for instance, represents 22.7 grams by weight out of a possible 454 grams or 1 lb. of food, the amount of beet pulp that is required in order to deliver the 22.7 grams of fiber is 141.87 grams (by weight) or more than one third of the ration. The volume occupied can be greater than the volume occupied by all the ingredients in the ration combined. This enormous volume of indigestible cellulose has a devastating effect on the nutrition in the ration."

Now, while this fellow may be an educated man, it appears from the above that he is not above telling a bald face lie to try and promote his theories and sell his food.

It is rather common knowledge that the dog food labels must have the ingredients listed in order of the actual weight of material contained in the bag. Here is the list from a common 30/20 dog food ration that contains beet pulp. "Chicken, chicken by-product meal, whole grain ground corn, wheat flour, egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), beet pulp, fish meal, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, brewers dried yeast. Vitamins, minerals, chelated minerals and supplements." As can be seen here there are 6 ingredients in the ration which exceed beet pulp in total weight included in the ration. Using the data supplied by the Abady company who tells us that the beet pulp comprises one third of the total weight of the ration, then there must be 6 other ingredients whose individual weights in the bag exceed 1/3 or the ration for each of them. A mathematical impossibility. In fact, if all 7 of the top ingredients in this food were of almost identical weight ratio and the rest of the ingredients of such small amount that they were statistically insignificant in weight, the absolute most the beet pulp could comprise of the ration would be 14% of the total weight. In reality we know that the anyalysis to come up with the 14% amount is ludicrous and the actual amount of beet pulp will be considerably less than that - and most certainly not the 33% claimed in the excerpt from the Abady website.

Perhaps claybuster has some further information or can correct my math for me or in some way show that the stuff posted on the Abady site is anything more than balderdash.

[Rick Hall]

Ezzy, my feeling is that even if the extra volume really is all water-soaked beet pulp, it's water that isn't getting used for hydration. And something I'd rather not clean off the grandkids' shoes...

[ezzy333]

Rick,

The moisture that the beet pulp absorbs is taken from the gut and intestines and helps make the stool firmer. It really won't affect the amount of water needed by the dog enough for you to notice. I understand the cleanup problem out of the yard and have noticed it doesn't seem to matter how big they are but rather how many. I don't think Beet Pulp being in the diet or not is of any great concern since there are many ways to keep the fiber where it needs to be and the foods without it just use a different source. The advantage of beet pulp is it is formentable which helps the good bacteria in the gut. But if it causes problems for you, I wouldn't use it either. Just be sure the kids step in the little piles as it is a lot easier to clean off of their shoes.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Here is some of this controversial material. From the Abady website: "While the percentage of fiber in most dry rations appear to be innocent enough, being in the 3 to 5 percent range when analyzed correctly is actually monstrous. ....

Well, the reason I didn't want to post the info is because I would hate to see another thread get "locked" because the viewpoint(s) expressed goes against what industry norm would led you to believe, and against what obviously some believe here to be true. I don't think opposing viewpoints leading to debate and discussion are welcome, therefore I am glad Slistoe posted that and not me! But, being that you that posted it first...you forgot something:

"On a volumetric basis, beet pulp, tomato pomace, cellulose powder, cellulose or flour and other like ingredients when saturated with digestive tract fluids can expand by as much as 250%. It is this enormous volume of cellulose that causes damage. Beet pulp (and vegetable fiber) and like ingredients reverse the digestive processes and raise havoc with nutrient values – lowering them. They are not appropriate ingredients for the feeding of carnivores."

If you are feeding omnivores (I'm not), then you may welcome Beet Pulp in the diet and feel it is a fantastic ingredient along with other high fiber ingredients.

Charlie

[claybuster_aa]

... Oh if only I had the chance to join a little one man company trying to carve a niche in the feed industry, maybe I too would be consider reasonably educated instead of wasting my time at the U of I.Ezzy

You never know, may have even developed a worldwide customer base like he did and started shipping feeds all over the globe.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

We had problems trying to keep up with demand just shipping here inthe midwest. Our mills just didn't have the capacity to make much more unless we built a new one that could manufacture several hundred tons a day.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

Rick,

The moisture that the beet pulp absorbs is taken from the gut and intestines and helps make the stool firmer. It really won't affect the amount of water needed by the dog enough for you to notice. I understand the cleanup problem out of the yard and have noticed it doesn't seem to matter how big they are but rather how many. I don't think Beet Pulp being in the diet or not is of any great concern since there are many ways to keep the fiber where it needs to be and the foods without it just use a different source. The advantage of beet pulp is it is formentable which helps the good bacteria in the gut. But if it causes problems for you, I wouldn't use it either. Just be sure the kids step in the little piles as it is a lot easier to clean off of their shoes.

Ezzy

A better scientist would, of course, have collected poop, dehydrated it and compared dry weights out vs dry weights fed, but much less crap much less often per serving is close enough for this old country boy.

[grousehunter08]

I use California natural it cost about $40 for a 36# bag its really good for dog with sensitive stomachs

[slistoe]

But, being that you that posted it first...you forgot something:

"On a volumetric basis, beet pulp, tomato pomace, cellulose powder, cellulose or flour and other like ingredients when saturated with digestive tract fluids can expand by as much as 250%. It is this enormous volume of cellulose that causes damage. Beet pulp (and vegetable fiber) and like ingredients reverse the digestive processes and raise havoc with nutrient values – lowering them. They are not appropriate ingredients for the feeding of carnivores."

I didn't forget anything. I left this part off because the premise on which it is based - namely "enormous volume of cellulose" is patently false, as shown in my first post. Do you have any insight into the special form of mathematics that they used?

[ezzy333]

There has never been a dog damaged from the amount of cellulose in the dog food.

Ezzy

[lvrgsp]

[quote][/quote] maybe I too would be consider reasonably educated instead of wasting my time at the U of I.

Now Ezzy you and I both know that, that was not wasted time, yet rather an elongated journey of agricultral studies in the form of hops and barley and the fermentation process, and the recovery of dehydration in the form of human consumption. Whew that was exhausting.

Chip

[ezzy333]

Chip you must have been there too. :roll:

Ezzy

[lvrgsp]

I don't remember....

Chip

[big steve46]

Dogs are carnivarous omnivores. Most dogs do well on most good quality feeds. Claybuster makes some valid points, but he's a little too picky at times with a tendency to "run it into the ground" so to speak. Variety of opinion can be interesting as long as we try to see things from another's opinion. Plus, you have to remember that I am correct about 98.3% of the time, and Ezzy is not too far behind me!

[claybuster_aa]

[quote="slistoe] I didn't forget anything. I left this part off because the premise on which it is based - namely "enormous volume of cellulose" is patently false, as shown in my first post. Do you have any insight into the special form of mathematics that they used?[/quote]

RIGHHHHHT, and beet pulp doesn't expand...just a myth. I trust the math of the person who develops the dog food, not your math you would like us to believe in.

Fresh meat muscle as a #1 is the biggest deception going in dog food today. Slistoe, you don't actually envision Frank Perdue wearing a white glove and hand trimming fresh cuts of chicken meat going into your dog food...do you? Fresh meat muscle is 75% moisture, everybody knows that. What they don't know is that by law, dog food manufactures are legally allowed to constitute that moisture content as a solid. Once that moisture content is extruded or baked out of the mix, you have about a thimble full size amount of actually chicken protein available for the serving ration. It's the biggest scam going and unfortunately people fall for it and actually think the #1 ingredient weighs more than ingredients further down the line. Yes, on a volume metric basis, once hydrated, your beet pulp fiber amounts to A LOT of fiber. Regardless of what you would like to believe, you can't judge a feed by looking at the order of the ingredients.

[ezzy333]

Dried beet pulp will about double in volume from the dried state to completely hydrated. Thats one of the reasons it works so well. However it is already partially hydrated before the dog eats it as we have to add moisture to the mash before pelleting. The opposite is true with the chicken or as Charlie calls it, fresh chicken. By the time it arrives at the mill it is already partially dried and then it would be dried enough more to reduce it almost half in weight. But where Charlie seems to be lost is that when you dry it all you are doing is taking out the water and every bit of the nutrients are still in the feed. So if you added 1000 lbs of fresh chicken and it is 25% protien, after you have dried it you will have an ingredient that is 50% protien and when the dog eats it it also doubles in volume just like the beet pulp.

There is an old saying about knowing just enough to be dangerous. I think you are seeing the results of that in many of the posts that Charlie has made. He remembers all of the things that make his opinion seem right and completely ignores all of the things that prove them wrong. If we are going to have one ingredient swell then we have to have to have all of them swell as the moisture is added back in. If you lose volume when you remove the water then you gain that same volume when you add the water back in.

And that's the way it was,

Ezzy

[slistoe]

RIGHHHHHT, and beet pulp doesn't expand...just a myth. I trust the math of the person who develops the dog food, not your math you would like us to believe in.

What did you say you got a degree in? It didn't involve any classes that entailed math, logic, problem solving or reason did it. I don't really care whether you believe that fibre in the diet helps or hinders digestion, but when someone tries to present something as fact which is in reality an outrageous falsehood then I find it hard to lend any credence to any other position they may present as they have already proven that their moral integrity is of dubious quality and their motive less than honorable. Please explain how the 7th listed ingredient in a list ordered by weight can comprise 33% of the total product by weight? The statement appears on at least 3 different pages in the Abady material. It is mathematically impossible. A total fabrication.

As to any delusions I may have about the source of the meat in feeds, I used to raise mink and ferrets for fur. I ground and mixed all their feed rations. I am pretty sure I know the type of stuff I put in there. Not as aesthetically pleasing as what goes on my table, but certainly more nutritious.

PS - did you try soaking any of your food in a cup of water?

[slistoe]

Double post

[claybuster_aa]

Please explain how the 7th listed ingredient in a list ordered by weight can comprise 33% of the total product by weight? The statement appears on at least 3 different pages in the Abady material. It is mathematically impossible. A total fabrication.

Well, you can always hire an attorney and engage in a lawsuit against the Robert Abady Dog Food Co. for spreading lies and fabricating mathematical impossibilities.... sounds like you have a good case...good luck with that one. Warning, avoid reading too much of that Abady stuff. You never know, some people have accused it of being cult-like? Be careful, you might end up brainwashed like me! Before you know it you'll start saying dogs are carnivores and should be fed accordingly.

[slistoe]

Hey, I am not about to be launching lawsuits over anything, but I am left wondering how someone like yourself, a supposedly intelligent and educated person, can read something like that and believe anything at all that the person says. Does it not bother you that he is basing his suppositions on pure fabrication?

[claybuster_aa]

Hey, I am not about to be launching lawsuits over anything, but I am left wondering how someone like yourself, a supposedly intelligent and educated person, can read something like that and believe anything at all that the person says. Does it not bother you that he is basing his suppositions on pure fabrication?

Does not bother me in the slightest, because we are all entitled to our opinions, and IMO, I think they one of the few companies out there actually hitting you with the truth. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that is all BS, myths, lies deception and fuzzy math. You judge a feed not with the smoke and mirror approach to the ingredients list and that order, you judge a feed 'by its record' and if it works for your dogs. There is a lot of deception in marketing, and it does take some homework to see through all the smoke, and a lot of the smoke being blown with many feeds. Take EVO with its 42% protein number? Are you going to buy that as legit…42%...think about it. A mere 8 points less than half the bag being pure protein. So if that 42% were actually based upon animal source proteins, how much do you think that bag of feed would really cost? IMO, it would be pushing $100 per medium size bag. It does not cost that much and therefore that 42% is helped with potatoes, apples, and cottage cheese. In my approach to feeding, the focus is animal source proteins, not cranberry dust. That is part of the smoke and mirrors I'm talking about when it comes to the marketing tactics of many feeds today. You may be highly skeptical of what my guy is saying, but IMO...watch the other folks.

[ezzy333]

Charlie,

It is what it says it is! Not very hard to get 42% animal protien when you can use animal ingredients that are well over 70%. When a company states what is in the feed it is stating a fact, whether it is your company or mine. The opinions stated on the net however have no basis on fact but is whatever someone wants to say to try and sell his feed. Many companies do that, you are right. And that includes Abady. I am concerned that you continue to post that your opinion is as good as a proven fact in a discussion like this. Thats pretty much kills any serious discussion when you are willing to say anything just to be arguementative. That is what is called a troll and you are beginning to fit the description. Most of your posts are some offbeat opinion and you try to make it out as fact so you can keep the arguement going. For your info we don't need that and we don't put up with it for long.

Either get back to a reasonable discussion or quit posting. Calling all companies deceitful but Abady's is not adding a thing to this topic. Sounds to me like your dog food is good and you like it. So is ours! Ours happen to be a whole lot cheaper and that is what this thread is about.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Stuff on the bag is what it is. It is not some fabrication. As ezzy says, 42% posted on the bag is 42%. No ifs ands or buts. Sources are not on the bag -eg. 42% animal protein - that is stuff of marketing.

33% beet pulp is a pure fabrication. It is a blatant, outright falsehood (unless someone can show me how to do the math to make it right). You say that in spite of this fact, you don't care and Abady is the only ones being truthful. OK.....what do you have a degree in????

No need to post if you don't want to, I have stated my point enough for reasonable thinking people to see the truth, I won't be restating it again.

[h20fwlkillr]

While I agree the labeling on dog food bags are deceptive, who cares? The dog doesn't, and he's the one eating the food. Labels are for marketing and to satisfy laws. The food is what goes into the dog. If a dog does well on a particular feed, no matter what it's made of, that is a good food. Heck, if my dogs would do well on meadow muffins, that is exactly what they would get. Plenty of fiber, but a little low on protein and fat.

[ezzy333]

Big Bad Steve,

Just run up to the elevator 15 miles north of here since I know they handle Diamond plus several other dog foods. Bought 3 50# bags of Premium and total bill was $85 including the tax. Thats .57 per lb. But after stopping at the Dr. office on the way anything sounds cheap.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Stuff on the bag is what it is. It is not some fabrication. As ezzy says, 42% posted on the bag is 42%. No ifs ands or buts. Sources are not on the bag -eg. 42% animal protein - that is stuff of marketing.

33% beet pulp is a pure fabrication. It is a blatant, outright falsehood (unless someone can show me how to do the math to make it right). You say that in spite of this fact, you don't care and Abady is the only ones being truthful. OK.....what do you have a degree in????

No need to post if you don't want to, I have stated my point enough for reasonable thinking people to see the truth, I won't be restating it again.

OK, you're right, and they are wrong. 3% fiber w/ beet pulp means it stays at 3% on a volume metric basis even after being hydrated...all BS and don't believe anything they say. It is all lies. And on that note I think I will take Ezzy's advice and stop posting. Thank you all.

Charlie

[oakcreek]

I made the switch from native to exceed. I pick it up 35 miles from my house at 23.50 for a 44lb bag. So far results have been good. Pretty much all the dogs maintained through the winter on 4 cups, pointers and labs. Minimal stool that washes off easy, good ingredients (similiar to pro-plan performance or Eukanuba performance). So far things are going well.

[ezzy333]

Stuff on the bag is what it is. It is not some fabrication. As ezzy says, 42% posted on the bag is 42%. No ifs ands or buts. Sources are not on the bag -eg. 42% animal protein - that is stuff of marketing.

33% beet pulp is a pure fabrication. It is a blatant, outright falsehood (unless someone can show me how to do the math to make it right). You say that in spite of this fact, you don't care and Abady is the only ones being truthful. OK.....what do you have a degree in????

No need to post if you don't want to, I have stated my point enough for reasonable thinking people to see the truth, I won't be restating it again.

OK, you're right, and they are wrong. 3% fiber w/ beet pulp means it stays at 3% on a volume metric basis even after being hydrated...all BS and don't believe anything they say. It is all lies. And on that note I think I will take Ezzy's advice and stop posting. Thank you all.

Charlie

Though I hate to see anyone quit I think we are all much better off. Come back when you can have a decent discussion about things without telling all of us that your opinions are correct and the facts that are out there are all wrong.

Thank you Charlie

Ezzy

[Sonny Hawkins]

Man Please!!! This happens when we talk about DOG FOOD. What do you think BIG STEVE? Looks like your the Daddy of this----Sonny