Meat Meal?

[jsc11700]

All this talk about different foods has got me interested. I recently switched to Black Gold Performance formula and the number one ingredient for this particular formula is Meat Meal. What the heck is it?

[WildRose]

"Meat meal" is probably the most generic term used in pet food labeling.

Meat Meal: The rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices.

[ezzy333]

Meat meal is just that. It is the tissue that is not used, then dried, and ground. The other similar ingredient that is used is meat and bone meal and it is a great source of calcium and phosphorus as well as protien. They run from 50 to 60% protien and are probably the most plentiful animal protien ingredients available.

Ezzy

[jsc11700]

Ezzy,

Is anything in nutrition lost in using a feed that has Meat meal as the #1 ingredient as opposed to a feed that has real chicken or chicken meal as the number one?

[MikeB]

I would call or e-mail the company and ask what kind of Meat Meal they use in their formulas. I am sure they will tell you.

[PrairieGoat]

I would call or e-mail the company and ask what kind of Meat Meal they use in their formulas. I am sure they will tell you.

They may tell you what they are currently using, but one of the reasons for listing it as "meat meal" versus "beef meal", "chicken meal", or "lamb meal" is that it allows them to switch whenever needs (cost, availability, etc) dictate. There is nothing wrong with it being meal....and is probably a good thing. Meal has little to no water content, whereas something listed as "chicken" or whatever has significant water content. This factors into its placement in the ingredient list since it is based on weight. This is a roundabout way of saying you get more bang for the buck with meal.

That being said, all else being equal I will generally pick a food that lists the specific type of meal over one that just says meat meal. I just like to know what is going into my dog's food...

[ezzy333]

Meat meal is made from any meat source and the manufacturer wouldn't know what kind of meat since all kinds of scraps are included. If it is made from just one kind of meat them you can list that. I don't think there is any reason to be selective though. I know where you can buy porcine meat meal and also lamb or chicken. There seems to be a concenous that chicken may be easier to digest but it has less calories than a red meat. Personally I would rather have a red meat source than chicken but I think that is basically personal preference. And if there have been palatability test run on them I am not aware of them.

But remember when I bought meat meal I had no idea what kind of meat it included and I had no reason to want to know as long as the ingredient met the quaratees that I needed. The only time we would buy a meal with a single source of protien was when we were making a speciality feed and wanted to list what kind on the label. The three main animal protien sources were Blood Meal, Meat Scraps, and Meat and Bone Meal, with this being the main one since it included a valuable source of calcium and phosphorus along with 50% protien.

One other thing I heard mentioned on one of these threads is the use of a by-product meal. In most cases by-product meals are better than straight meat of any kind. By-products contain the tendons and bones plus other parts that provide a rich source of minor ingredients we are finding very helpful in the total nutrition package such as the Omega 3 and 6 and the other ingredients we are thinking help the jointsand possibly reduce the arthritis and other problems. Its funny how we want to feed the dog what sounds good to us while denying the dog what it considers exquisit cusine.

Ezzy

[claybuster_aa]

Ezzy,

Is anything in nutrition lost in using a feed that has Meat meal as the #1 ingredient as opposed to a feed that has real chicken or chicken meal as the number one?

jsc, I had just posted in the "dog food around the country thread" about the problems associated with "chicken", fresh meat muscle, as a #1. That problem is the law that legally allows moisture content to be calculated as a solid. In reality, it amounts to very little total chicken protein in the serving. Despite being the favorites by sources like the WDJ for that wholesome worthiness of your dinner table nonsense, many of those feeds starting off with "chicken" are some of the worst feeds imaginable because of the miniscule amount of actual protein.

Did you ever wonder why people often have good results with feeds like Pro Plan and Diamond? It is not the beet pulp. The reason dogs do well on these feeds is because of the use of by-product meals. It really doesn’t matter whether it is chicken by-product meal, poultry by-product meal, meat meal, beef and bone meal, what matters is the protein content and the more animal source, the better. The answers are in economics.

Why economics? OK, take CBPM for example, an excellent ingredient in dog food despite what you may hear being promoted by the WDJ (whole dog journal). Chickens in this country are killed primarily for human consumption. Therefore, regardless of any "yuck factor", those ingredients are human grade or human quality. For reasons of aesthetic appeal, heads, feet, intestines, whatever, are undesirable ingredients for us, however considered a delicacy in Asian world. Walk into an Asian market in any big city and don't be surprised if you see some chicken feet in the bin for sale. Like Ezzy had eluded to, there are valuable nutrients and protein available in that stuff we consider gross: heads, feet, guts, etc. Intelligent dog food manufactures take advantage of the economics within the marketplace. CBPM cost multiples less than meat muscle, yet nutritional content remains the same if not higher per pound. So, for X amount of dollars, you can get X amount of meat muscle (chicken) or for the same money, get up to 3X's as much CBPM. Manufactures can therefore include 3X's as much into the ration for the same money. Keep in mind, any good quality feed, the focus should be delivering the protein, not playing games in regards to personal aesthetic appeal and what is worthy of your own dinner table.

Problem with meat meals is knowing the source. What you hope you're not getting 3D meats rejected for the human consumption market. You hope not to get beef taken down with drugs. However, the economic principles behind meat meals and meat by-product meals remain the same, you can for the same money deliver more proteins and nutrients. IMO, and what I have learned from what my feed maker will assert, despite what the WDJ will profess, without the use of fats and by-product meals, dog food becomes inadequate. The focus should be delivering the protein and you do that with the use of by-product meals. And that is the reason why people have good results from feeds like Pro Plan and Diamond are these feeds will use by-product meals in efforts to deliver the goods.

Charlie

PS: I grew up in the Philly and weaned on SCRAPPLE.

[big steve46]

claybuster, I've been known to say there is some merit in what you post, and your last post shows that. Human foods are generally less nutritious than commercial animal foods because human foods are overly processed to make them taste good and look good. I believe in supplements for humans, as I believe RDAs are set too low for optimum health. However, animals need far fewer supplements due to their food being better. Animals need supplements perhaps at Iatrogenetic times when they may have received antibiotics for example which destroyed the normal gut flora, so probiotics then would be needed. Generally, most trustworthy companies will put good ingredients in their feed, so then we have to decide how well our dogs do on the feed, and we have to decide how much we want to spend for reality, or do we want to spend more for "hype."

[claybuster_aa]

Big Steve, you are the voice of reason! How come you're not a moderator...you got my vote.

[Greg Jennings]

Scrapple....Goetta is big around here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetta . Souse was popular where I grew up.

As soon as I knew anything about the prion, anything that might contain neural tissue was out of my diet. Knew lots of older folk growing up that liked squirrel brains.

Greg J.

[big steve46]

clay, Thanks for the vote, but they already have good moderators on here. By the way, when you find yourself digging yourself into a deep hole, (and we have all done it) QUIT DIGGING! I'm still learning things all the time about dog nutrition. My expertise is in human nutrition. One of my degrees is a B.A. in Bio-Nutrition, which it with other degrees makes me an educated idiot some times!

[oakcreek]

I don't like meat meal as the main ingredient because usually you have to feed at least a cup or two more. I fed the blue bag BG and had to feed more then when I fed a chicken by product based food

[big steve46]

oakcreek, that's interesting that you have to feed more of the one with meat meal. I believe that's their "field trial' formula, which I believe is misnamed. Most of their other formulas would be better for trial dogs, plus most have chicken Overall, I think they have good reasonable priced products. I kinda feel sorry for the owners that think you have to spend a dollar a pound to get a high quality feed.

[Big Dave]

One of my friends who owns a kennel prefers chicken meal because of ease of clean up, he says. I have had good luck with both meat meal and chicken meal. When is was cold and wet for such a long period last winter I went from Black Gold performance 26-18 to the Black Gold field trial 24-20, not only does it have more fat and calories but it is more digestable. It worked well for me.

[big steve46]

Obviously, dogs need more calories in cold weather, but did you have to feed a greater volume of the blue bag?

[oakcreek]

IF you look on the back of the blue bag it says on there what they recommend it is actually a cup higher then that on the chicken formula. I did like it, but had to feed a bunch to keep them in decent condition. I think that the chicken or chicken meal dog food cleans up better then the meat meal or the chicken by product.

[claybuster_aa]

Questions for Oakcreek: Comparing the two feeds, was the cost the same? How about the bag weight?

Charlie

[claybuster_aa]

Scrapple....Goetta is big around here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetta . Souse was popular where I grew up.

As soon as I knew anything about the prion, anything that might contain neural tissue was out of my diet. Knew lots of older folk growing up that liked squirrel brains.

Greg J.

There was a link to Scrapple in that Goetta link...I'm getting hungry!

[oakcreek]

The blue bag is 50lbs I feed a 44lb bag now

[claybuster_aa]

Thanks Oakcreek. The reason I asked was because I was guessing if you have to feed more cup(s) of the meat as compared to the chicken, the product was costing you less. If not costing you less, then they are giving you some more, in this case an extra 6-pounds. In other words, sounds like it works itself out in the wash. IMO, I would agree about using less despite sacrificing the extra 6-pounds.

[big steve46]

Claybuster, Since you like lots of meatin your dogfood, have you tried "Taste Of The Wild" by Diamond? First four ingredients are bison, venison, lamb meal, and chicken meal. Too expensive for me (over a dollar a pound), but it might be an efficiently used food.

[claybuster_aa]

Claybuster, Since you like lots of meatin your dogfood, have you tried "Taste Of The Wild" by Diamond? First four ingredients are bison, venison, lamb meal, and chicken meal. Too expensive for me (over a dollar a pound), but it might be an efficiently used food.

Thanks Steve. You're not baiting me by any chance, are ya! I think Ezzy's ready to shoot me on sight! I just looked at the profile online (interesting though, not found off the main Diamond website) and let's just say doesn't look my cup of tea. If I went into the reasons why, most likely be construed as bashing a feed which I want to avoid...best not to comment I think. If someone else cares to bring up the topic of grain free diets I may interject some thought, but even that would risky I think. Probably best just to keep my mouth shut.

I will say this though, if I move off of what I am doing now, I will move into the direction of raw feeding concepts and home prepared diets. Problem there is though I would like to be in control of my own meat source. I'm not set up for that, don't have the extra freezer space, and if I started slaughtering and butchering animals for dog food my wife would probably kill me.

[big steve46]

I was just curious if you had tried that feed. It's loaded with meat and other seemingly good ingredients. I've got a sample bag sitting in front of me.

[Chaingang]

I was just curious if you had tried that feed. It's loaded with meat and other seemingly good ingredients. I've got a sample bag sitting in front of me.

I looked at some of their different formula's and it does have a variety of meat sources not usually found in most feeds. There is even one which is a Salmon based formula, which may be fine for dogs with issues with beef or chicken. One thing that did strike me is that while some of their formula's claim a 30/20 type formula, the Kcal's per cup are relatively low (360-390) compared to other feeds in this class. Most likely the exclusion of any quality grains. Might not be the best of feeds for hard working gun dogs who need the extra calories.

[big steve46]

chaingang, Just to remind you, proteins and carbs have 4 calories per gram, and fat has 9 calories per gram. So it may be less fat in some foods that lower calories. The assimilative factor which is enhanced when good quality ingredients are used is important also. Therefore, it's not only calories that you consider. Lots of wild animal meat sources that are extra lean may also sl lower calories.

[Chaingang]

Steve, in the case of Taste of the Wild, a number of their formulas state a protein/fat percentage of roughly 30/20 which you would think would constitute a higher calorie rating than is listed. Take a look at some of the better known quality performance feeds out there and you will see the difference in calorie count, quite a difference in fact. Example: Innova EVO, another grainless multi-meat formula and high in protein/fat as an example has a very high Kcal per cup listing (500) I believe. I could see if this was a lower quality feed, but it doesnt' appear that way from an ingredient standpoint. But you may be right in that some of the meat used is from wild animal sources which would explain the leaner figures. But also the exclusion of any grain sources which in my mind which would add calories as well. Either way it looks like a quality feed and having no experience with it was only speculating as to it's usefullness as a performance feed based on it's calorie count. I'm certainly no expert on the subject.

[big steve46]

Tom, 32-18 is the numbers on the Taste I'm looking at. I'll have to try the sample bag, and see how my Llew likes it.

[PrairieGoat]

I just finished switching my GSP pup over to Taste of the Wild. Thus far he really likes it.....or so it would seem! Even though I always measure out his food, most dry foods he just kind of eats as he feels like it. With the Taste of the Wild (High Prairie formula), he eats it immediately on putting it in his bowl, which tells me he really likes it. Haven't really been feeding it long enough to draw any real conclusions about it.

[big steve46]

PG, what's the cost of that Taste of the Wild? I think it's well over a dollar a pound here. Looks like a fine formula though.

[PrairieGoat]

Don't really recall....struck me as kind of "mid-range" of the foods at the feedstore I go to.....

[big steve46]

Some of the opinions of and believing in certain products ultimately gets to how much you trust the manufacturing company. Some companies like Diamond makes product for other brand names. How the meat meals and by-product meals are made and the sources thereof can vary. So, know basic info about nutrition such as meat as first ingredient being important, and then develop faith in a company by experience.