are these just tick bites?

[littleking]

or something worse like lyme disease?




the ring has faded 50% or so from last night when i took the pic

[Karen]

Looks like a tick bite to me. I'd get her on Doxycycline as soon as possible and for at least 21 days.

[littleking]

now they get tons of ticks on them every spring, this is the first i've noticed it though. should i be doing that with every tick bite?

[Karen]

That bite looks like the bullseye they warn about when lyme is spread, which is why I suggested Doxycycline.

Do you use anything to repel or kill ticks on her? My vet tells me that it takes 24 hours to spread lyme from tick to host, and Frontline Plus kills them in 24-48 hours. Add a repellant like Frontline spray or Adams Flea and Tick spray and the Lyme vaccine and you're covered about as much as you can be, but still it's no guarantee that they won't get lyme.

[littleking]

yes i use frontline, and i check her daily.
i't be hard pressed for a tick to be on her for more than 24 hours without me noticing....

i'll be calling the vet this afternoon

[kninebirddog]

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/lyme.aspx

Researchers have learned that infected ticks must feed for about 24 hours to transmit the bacteria to a susceptible animal so quick removal of ticks from your pet reduces the chance of infection

the rash they speak of is much larger with a rash associated and Humans often show a skin rash that looks like a target but this is rarely seen in infected dogs.


I would also call and ask your vet what he thinks...even email him the pictures if he has email

[littleking]

Eric – I showed Dr. Violet the photos and she said that these are not tick bites. Ticks usually go to hairier places. She sees dogs with these circles every year. She said they are some kind of gnatty bugs that are out in the grass this time of year and the circles will go away. Shouldn’t have any problems. But keep an eye on them and let us know if there is anything else going on. Even with tick bites, it could be weeks before you would see any symptoms of lyme disease. Lisa

[kninebirddog]

You mean thsoe rotton No See'ums

[The Zephyr]

LK,

What you are seeing is a reaction at the site of the tick bite itself. If you are using Frontline or a similar systemic the tick had probably dropped off before it could transfer Lymes. A greater concern time-wise is the bite of the Lone Star tick and the transmission of Ehrlichiosis (sp?). The deer tick needs to be attached for 48 hours to spread the Lymes whereas the Lone Star does it's nasty deed in 24.
It is best to comb/brush your dogs as you bring them in from being afield, even if that's just the backyard. I was living on a farm and there was a samll strip of grass between the ag lot and the farm road out in front of the house. My dog came in one morning after her constitutional and gave me the worst "I'm not liking this,Dad" look. I rolled her over and she had gotten in to a tick hatch. She had hundreds of the little buggers on her. They weren't digging in, just kinda barely attached on the surface of the skin. I got rid of them with flea comb and a good bath.

John L.

[littleking]

i check the dogs nightly, and i've never found a tick in the location of the spot.

the spot is all but gone as of this evening.

[markj]

Could it be a spider bite?

[littleking]

already posted what it was

Eric – I showed Dr. Violet the photos and she said that these are not tick bites. Ticks usually go to hairier places. She sees dogs with these circles every year. She said they are some kind of gnatty bugs that are out in the grass this time of year and the circles will go away. Shouldn’t have any problems. But keep an eye on them and let us know if there is anything else going on. Even with tick bites, it could be weeks before you would see any symptoms of lyme disease. Lisa

[bfd_dan]

I am not sure they are tick bites. Last year my GSP got several red rings, about 1/4" diam on him. I did take him to the vet but it turned out they were someother bug bite. Having had lymes I am very cautious about it.

Dan

[bruns333]

Hey littleking, my gsp has gotten this exact thing before. They were always on her belly and it was always after we were out in the field got home and after giving her a bath I would be going over her and noticed those same red rings. I took her to the vet and once we got doxy, after finding them several other times we decided to just say it was something in the weeds/woods and never worried about it since. That was 3 years ago. I don't think it is anything terrible. I thought maybe it was the soap or other bug or weed irritation.
Matt

[ezzy333]

One vet I know thought they were chigger bites?

Ezzy

[bean1031]

Eric – I showed Dr. Violet the photos and she said that these are not tick bites. Ticks usually go to hairier places. She sees dogs with these circles every year. She said they are some kind of gnatty bugs that are out in the grass this time of year and the circles will go away. Shouldn’t have any problems. But keep an eye on them and let us know if there is anything else going on. Even with tick bites, it could be weeks before you would see any symptoms of lyme disease. Lisa

Thats weird, I have found about 10 ticks on my dogs belly in the past year and none in the hairy spots.

[bean1031]

That bite looks like the bullseye they warn about when lyme is spread, which is why I suggested Doxycycline.

Do you use anything to repel or kill ticks on her? My vet tells me that it takes 24 hours to spread lyme from tick to host, and Frontline Plus kills them in 24-48 hours. Add a repellant like Frontline spray or Adams Flea and Tick spray and the Lyme vaccine and you're covered about as much as you can be, but still it's no guarantee that they won't get lyme.

Whats the point of tick meds if the meds dont kill the ticks until its already transmitted lyme?

[littleking]

i have not seen the rings since... i agree with some sort of insect or nettle.. not tick

[Sharon]

Been through this before.

These are classic lyme disease rings - stage 1.
They go away and unless your antibiotic (21 days+) has worked, it goes into stage 2.
No way to know if your antibiotic has worked without a test.
See your vet asap. Don't risk your dog's future mobility please.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... ualContent

[littleking]

Your dog is in stage one. The antibiotic changes for each stage. See the vet.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... ualContent

i did see the vet. the spots were gone the very next day. and they were not lyme disease rash rings.

[kninebirddog]

come to think of it when we were in Nebraska there were some small annoying little flies that would annoy the dogs mostly the pointers got bit the worst that would leave a similiar ring

[Sharon]

Just my opinion, but having been through this I would be getting another vet opinion .

[kninebirddog]

No Offense
First off dogs rarely get the ring and as posted on the previous page the ring pictured versus the ring of the lymes which is accompanied by a rash...the dog doesn't even come close and dogs rarely ever show the same clincal signs that humans do
plus the process just a tick biting and moving on will not transmit the bacteria

http://www.vetvax.com/lymediseasedogs.html

Lyme Disease in Dogs - Symptoms & Treatment

Lyme Disease Causes:
Lyme Disease is caused by a spirochete called Borrelia. A spirochete is a type of bacterium. It is transmitted to dogs through the bite of a tick. The feeding tick is basically a blood sucker. It must keep its host’s blood from clotting in order to continue sucking so it is able to regurgitate assorted enzymes to keep the blood flow liquid and smooth. It is during this regurgitation process that the Lyme spirochete is brought up from the tick’s midgut to its mouthparts. This process requires a minimum of 48 hours which means that if the tick is removed within 48 hours of attachment, the spirochete cannot be transmitted and the host will not get the disease. Once in the blood stream, it is carried to many parts of the dog's body. It is especially likely to localize in joints.

Lyme Disease Symptoms:

In dogs, Lyme disease produces symptoms characterized by arthritis, though it can sometimes involve heart, nervous system and the kidneys. The arthritic joints may become swollen and hot, and there may be a fever (102 to 105 degrees) and poor appetite. Dogs may also become lame because of the disease. This painful lameness often appears suddenly and may shift from one leg to another. If untreated, it may eventually disappear, only to recur weeks or months later. The glands (lymph nodes) of the dog may also be swollen.

Many dogs suffering from Lyme Disease are taken to a veterinarian because they seem to be experiencing generalized pain and have stopped eating. Often these dogs have high fevers.

Some dogs are affected with the Lyme Disease organism for over a year before they finally show symptoms. By this time, the disease may be quite widespread in the dog's body.

Lyme Diease Diagnosis:

Diagnosis of Lyme disease in dogs is based on risk of exposure, clinical symptoms and blood testing. Only a veterinarian can make the diagnosis.

Lyme Disease Treatment:

The Lyme spirochete is a bacterium, so it can be controlled by antibiotics. However, a lengthy course of treatment may be necessary to completely eradicate the organism. With early detection, dogs may experience relief of symptoms within 24 hours of treatment. Chronic cases require longer periods of treatment.

Lyme Disease Prevention:

The degree of prevention for your pet depends upon exposure to areas at high risk for Lyme disease. Grooming to detect ticks and prompt removal will help to minimize the risk of contracting Lyme disease. Tick prevention and tick-killing products are available for dogs. Products containing permethrin (BioSpot), amitraz (Preventic Collars),or fipronyl (Frontline Plus)can be used safely on dogs.

Vaccines are now available to help prevent Lyme Disease in dogs. Annual revaccination is necessary. Contact your veterinarian if you suspect your dog may have Lyme Disease.

[littleking]

No Offense
First off dogs rarely get the ring and as posted on the previous page the ring pictured versus the ring of the lymes which is accompanied by a rash...the dog doesn't even come close and dogs rarely ever show the same clincal signs that humans do
plus the process just a tick biting and moving on will not transmit the bacteria

http://www.vetvax.com/lymediseasedogs.html

if you look at the lyme disease rash pics, versus the pic i posted... things are way different.

[griffgirl]

I look at my guys every day being that we go for a run x2 in a day.Both had the same rings on there bellys.One had 2 and the other had 1 ring.Right away I thought OMG.They went away the next day so Im thinking the little nats or (no see ems) as we call them are hatching big time here in Wisconsin and the other day they were bad.Ya couldnt even sit outside.Either one has had anything since.

[2britts]

griffgirl,

I had the same thing happen on friday. I'm on the Michigan-Wisconsin border. I took my girls out to camp and they came home with the bites. We did find a few ticks but they were all up around the ears not on the belly where the rings were.

[Emmajelly]

They are chigger bites. I took photos of my dog, and yours are exactly like mine. Both of my dogs are hiked in the woods.

Chiggers are found in tall grass and in the woods. They do heal on their own, unless the dog makes it worse by scratching or licking.

Chiggers normally show on a dogs belly, and thighs. Ticks and fleas like deep hairy areas.
Mine both went in again today, since the area became worse. They do not have fleas.
We do live in an epidemic area for Lyme Disease, however, this is not a tick bite.
Dogs do not show a bulls eye like a human. We went through treatments of Lyme Disease last year (human). Dogs will show signs on their shoulder areas.

The other idea, outside of chiggers, which can show this way...

Plant awns. Again.. going through tall grasses, and wooded areas.
and baby spiders that are in the grasses.

Antihistamines are the fist option. It does sedate the dogs to a degree, depending on the dog.
It hit both of my hard.
Mine are used to going for 2 hour hikes. We will have to find an alternative to going up the ridge toward the Appalachian Trail. Looks like road walks, and running next to the bicycle for each of them, or the treadmill, until cold weather comes.


Chiggers normally are a Spring and Fall bother.
Plant awns, and spiders.. three out of four seasons.

I did a lot of research, and vet visits to eliminate a great deal of things. Since it is affecting two mixed breed dogs that are not from the same litter, allergies have been eliminated.
I hope this helps!

IT IS NOT A TICK BITE, to all those that think dogs react the same as humans. They do not. Dogs react much slower, and differently than a human does. The tick has to bite and remain for two days.

Proper grooming of your dog after each exercise is a must.

Good luck!

[WildRose]

The random use of antibiotics is a bad idea. Unless you know what you are dealing with, and run a full course often you run the risk of simply creating a drug resistant strain from those who survive.

For your own piece of mind If I were you I'd give it 14-21 days and get a lyme disease test done just to be sure.

None of the systemic flea and tick preventives actually prevent fleas and ticks from getting on your dog or from biting them. They do kill them in one to three days.

During flea and tick season we use Bronco Fly spray on the dogs to keep the buggers from being as inclined to get on them in the first place and to kill them before they get a chance to bite. CR

[Emmajelly]

I was WRONG... what you are looking at is a Staph infection on your dog! Get treatment now.

You need to get your dog to a vet, and then the fun begins. I have been four times now. I finally requested the owner of the clinic. He specializes in derma. The photo you took is just like mine, when I first took one of my two dogs in. The vet thought it was a bite.. put her on antibiotics, but the wrong one, Second visit both dogs had this. I was given cream, and said to use Benadryl. Didn't help. It became worse. Antibiotics, the right kind, but not given long enough, plus prednisone. The same marks started showing again four days ago.
They went in yesterday.

It is a STAPH infection. Only contagious dog-dog. Not to you. There a several types, so I am waiting to hear the results of the culture and skin biopsy. Meanwhile, they are on antibiotics again..
ointment 3 times a day, and they have medicated baths twice a week.

There bedding has to be washed in bleach every three days, along with collars, pack backs..
the vehicle was vacuumed, then sprayed with Clorox hard surface. I called and asked.. they said it would work. Since it does kill Staph, and is color safe.. just have to wait for it to dry.

Not all vets see this. I finally lucked out and the owner had come back from a convention..
long of the short.. he knew what he was looking at. Thank God!

What caused this? Either a bite, a scratch, allergies (inhalant, food, etc.) but the irritant causes the skins to become inflamed. Once the skin is broken, enters in staph.

The below should help....
What is Staph?

Staph is a commonly used abbreviation for Staphylococcus, a group of bacteria commonly found on the skin. Dermatitis is a term that means that the skin is inflamed.

Does Staph always cause dermatitis?

No. In fact, Staph is a normal resident of the skin of animals and humans. It is considered an opportunist. As long as the skin is healthy, Staph is dormant. But once the skin is irritated, Staph can invade the area and multiply rapidly.

What are likely causes of this type of skin irritation?

Scratching is the most common cause. Any disorder that causes itching can create the situation which allows Staph to become a problem. Common causes of itching include fleas, inhalant allergy, and food allergy. Irritating chemicals, such as flea and tick dips, also can cause itching.

How is Staph dermatitis diagnosed?

There are two typical Staph lesions. One type begins as a red area on the skin with a pimple-like pustule in the center. The other type is a circular, reddish area with a crusty edge and hair loss in the center. The latter can easily be confused with ringworm. Finding either of these skin patterns in a dog that is scratching is highly suggestive of Staph.

Confirmation can be made with cultures or skin biopsy. The lesions are so typical that this is usually not necessary.

How is Staph dermatitis treated?

This bacterium is usually sensitive to several antibiotics. These include erythromycin, enrofloxacin, amoxicillin with clavulanic acid, lincomycin, dicloxacillin, and oxacillin. Since these medications can be given orally, treatment can occur at home. Some infections may require 3-6 weeks of treatment before the infection is under control. Antibacterial shampoos and ointments can also be helpful to bring about rapid control of the infection.

The other essential part of treatment is stopping the itching and scratching. Other tests may be needed to determine the cause or causes. Frequently, more than one condition contributes to itching.

Is my dog contagious to me or other pets?

No. All dogs, cats, and people have Staph living on the skin as a normal resident.

I finished treatment for Staph dermatitis two weeks ago, and now the Staph infection is back. Why is that?

This situation may be caused by an allergy to the Staph bacteria. This is called Staph hypersensitivity or Staph allergy. The skin lesions that are caused by this disease are identical to those of a Staph dermatitis. The difference is recurrence. If Staph dermatitis is treated properly, the underlying cause is eliminated and itching is stopped, the bacterial skin disease should be eliminated. This situation may return if itching returns. When the dog with Staph hypersensitivity is treated, the skin lesions will return within a few days or weeks.

Since differentiation of Staph dermatitis and Staph hypersensitivity is based largely on recurrence, it is very important that treatment be continued long enough. This often means a month or more of antibiotics. If not, there will still be a question of which disease is present.

How is Staph hypersensitivity treated?

Treatment begins the same as for Staph dermatitis: oral antibiotics, medicated shampooing, and whatever is necessary to stop the itching. Long-term control is best achieved with Staph bacterin. Staph bacterin is a solution of killed Staph bacteria that is injected into the dog in very tiny amounts. This is an attempt to reprogram the dog's immune system so it does not over-react to its own bacteria. The use of Staph bacterin begins as a series of daily injections into the layers of the skin. After the initial series is completed, the injections are given subcutaneously (just below the skin) on an interval of every 3-4 days to every 2 weeks. Since this is an ongoing treatment, it is done by you at home.

I have never given injections so I don't think that I can do this.

It is much easier than you think. Veterinary clinics can teach most people to give the injections in just a few minutes. Don't decide that you cannot do this until you are shown the technique. If after seeing the technique you are still not comfortable doing it, one of the veterinary staff members can do the injections for you on a regular basis.

How successful is this?

Allergy shots are never successful 100% of the time, whether in dogs or in people. Veterinarians expect up to 75% of the dogs to respond well.

What happens if Staph bacterin is not successful?

If you do not give the injections, you cannot arrange for a veterinary staff member to do so, or your dog does not respond, the dog will have to be treated periodically with oral antibiotics and medicated baths. This is not the most desirable approach because Staph will often develop resistance to the antibiotics. If this occurs, a change in the specific antibiotic used will be necessary.

[Riccur]

Black fly bites, gnats, no seeums depends on your location. They are harmless. My dog has been covered in them and they go away the next day.

[snips]

There is a new flea/tick med out called Comfortis that is in pill form. It is suppossed to kill fleas much quicker than Frontline. We picked some up today, we will see. Sounds good.

[Emmajelly]

I was WRONG again, or should I say, MY vet was wrong. Cultures came back clear for Ringworm, and Staph infection.

They are NOW going in for skin biopsies. Both dogs have this, and they are not related. It has spread from the belly to the thighs, joints, neck, to the inside of both ears.

Someone wish ME luck please? This has been going on since May and I cannot stand to see these girls suffering.

I am angry that it is taking this long.

1st visit. 1st vet, 28 days of Doxycycline

2nd visit 2nd vet animax ointment, use for 10 days, and get back to them. They worsened in 1 day.
SOOO, back they went.

3rd visit. same vet. Prednisone 1 month, cephalexin 14 days. It cleared up, but returned the last week of prednisone. (hmm.. allergy related.. at least I am thinking this... )

4th visit 3rd vet Thinks it is a Staph infection. 28 days of cephalexin, mupirocin ointment twice a day, medicated baths every three days.. and a bunch of cleaning, changing their bedding every 3 days..

Bathing made it worse. that was discontinued. They are getting worse.. Benadryl 2-3 times a day.. still scratching and gnawing... It has spread to their ears...

Phone call today.... switching to Atarax twice a day, and a new antibiotic clindamycin.

Biopsies on both dogs in a little over a week from this post.

All I can say... UNREAL. If any of the staff and vets I have dealt with had this all over them.. they would rethink how to treat the pups or the owners for that matter!
I have been extremely patient so far, but am starting to voice myself. They certainly put their hands out fast enough to take my money!

I wish I had an answer. Since I have two dogs that are not related going through this.. it is looking like allergies to something.. what? Don't know. For some reason, I am thinking spider bites.
They are sneaky little things, you don't feel them when they bite, but they leave behind a bite that looks similar to this on me! I have them on my legs..

[kninebirddog]

http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/arthopo/chiggers/
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... icleid=774


http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/dx.html

One of the most common situations where the pet owner exits the animal hospital without a diagnosis involves the “itchy dog”. Far too often, our canine friends suffering from chronic skin problems are presented, examined, given cortisone to “stop the itching”, and are seen again in six weeks for the same problem. The diagnosis of a “skin allergy” is only a partial diagnosis (and a mis-diagnosis if sarcoptic mites are involved); you need to know to what the dog is allergic in order to have a diagnosis of Allergic Dermatitis. I wonder how many people leave the veterinarian’s office with the idea that their dog is allergic to “something” and those pills or injections “should help”? Well, what if your dog is allergic to corn and all you have to do is change to a food that has no corn? Or what if sarcoptic mites are causing all that itching and the cortisone is actually making the situation worse?

http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/itch.html



most times when my dogs have had those little rings as has been stated quite a few times already it has been no seeums and biting flies for the post at hand

[Emmajelly]

First, I did not leave the office with a diagnosis... no one knows yet... which is why their skin is being biopsied.

Second there food has been changed. A great deal has been changed.

When it is two of your dogs, please get back to me. Until then.. I do not want to be judged.

It could be allergies, it could be something that is biting them, ants, spiders...

until it is confirmed, the symptoms are treated to help relieve the dogs suffering. NO,corticosteroidsare not my favorite option, and will never be. They are not good for humans, or animals!

I wonder why so many people do not know how to walk a dog properly, but I certainly do not go over to them and tell them they are doing it all wrong and judge them! If they like to be pulled all over the place.. oh well!

[Emmajelly]

and.. if you had bothered to read any of it... instead of skimming.. Prednisone helped, it didn't make it worse.

Yes, if it had been a staph infection, it would have made it worse, because corticosteroids weaken the immune system.

They do not have mites, mange, parasites, an infection. All of that has been ruled out with all kinds of tests!

[kninebirddog]

Excuse Me ...but cortizone and predinizone also appeared to help this other dog that I saw that ended up being scarcoptic mange that the lady went through fancy food and shots and treatements for

Was a mere suggestion take or or leave it ...

and I also posted other things for posible help ...but again wasn't saying it was or wasn't just trying to keep more doors open


Have a nice day and I hope they find out what is wrong with YOUR dogs before you go jumping telling others what is for sure wrongthen having to retract with other people what is wrong with thiers



....

[WildRose]

Emma many years ago I had something similar. My dogs were getting eaten up by chiggers and "noseeums". At that time I was using if I remember right Adam's flea and tick spray. They got MUCH worse, very quickly.

I switched them off of the Adam's because I'd done a lot of reading that showed a good many dogs were reacting badly to alcohol based flea and tick sprays. The problem cleared up almost immediately.

My question would be this. What are you using for flea and tick prevention? Are you using chemical pesticides on your lawn? Using any pesticides in the house to prevent/control fleas in the house?

It definitely appears your dogs are having a systemic reaction to something that is environmental and if it were me pesticides and herbicides would be where I'd take a very hard look. CR

[AlwaysHiking]

A little late... but these could be black fly bites.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 05x7714118

http://petlovers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17737


We had four dogs out over the weekend and they all had them in the same place along their bellies and inner thighs. One thing for sure, with dogs from four different households, it had to be environment related.

Oh what a wonderful place the internet is when one can do an image search and find exactly the answer they need! Glad I found this forum.

- AH, Ripley & Bella