Another dog food question?

[Saggaswild]

I have a young lab that is really struggling with a cruddy coat. After many discussions about what is wrong with his coat the consensus is that he is losing his hair due to not enough Omega 6 and 3 in his dog food. I was originally feeing IAMS but due to problems with diahrea switched to Diamond Lamb and rice. We are currently on our 4th bag and still am not seeing any change to his coat. I have had him to the vet and have had his skin scraped to see if it is mites in his skin but the answer was no. The spots have moved up his sides and are now moving to his face. He has hair in all these places but very short. I read someone mention hot spots but this person also related it to that lack of oil in his coat.

Any suggestion for dog foods that the first few ingredients are fish/salmon based would be great or any other ideas of what may be plaging my dog. He will be 2 in August.

[zodiakgsps]

Sounds like it could be allergies, either food or inhalant. Taste of the Wild & California Natural both have fish-based formulas with the TOW being grain free & higher in fat/protein.(the Cal Natural is pretty low fat/protein for a working dog, assuming he is, but it is a good allergy formula having only fish & sweet potato, vitamins & minerals as ingredients). You may want to try a kelp supplement also along with the food change, remember to give it about 8 weeks to see any difference.
I have seen both of these foods make big differences in many of my client dogs with food allergy issues.(I've been a dog groomer for over 20 yrs & see a lot of skin issues in dogs) Salmon oil or flaxseed oil supplements are high in omegas', you may want to try supplement with one of these foods as well.
He could have inhalant allergy issues too(or solely) only allergy testing will provide the exact allergies though, food changes/supplements can still help improve these, but not cure them altogether.
Good luck with him!!

[snips]

Or possible Thyroid?

[big steve46]

I agree that the thyroid should be checked. Even if tests are low-normal, some treatment could be tried. I doubt that changing the feed will solve the problem, as you have been using very good feeds. Perhaps 200 units of Vit E per day could be used to support the adrenals and other hormones. More testing is indicated to determine WHY!

[Saggaswild]

I guess I had never considered his thyroid. He is a very high energy dog with a big appetite. Slow is not in his nature its 100% all the time. I have to stop at the Vet today and I will ask him about having his thyroid checked and see if that may be the issue.

[MarineX]

I'd recommend-stop feeding the Diamond dog food. While it is better than Iams, it's still a bottom of the line dog food. Try getting a premium food like Canidae, Nature's Variety, Timberwolf Organics, etc. People use Diamond for one reason and one reason only-it's cheap.

[big steve46]

Sagg, Not trying to start an argument, but Marine doesn't know what he's talking about, although he has a right to his opinion. Diamond is a good brand. My opinion is that you need to get a proper diagnosis.

[ezzy333]

I'd recommend-stop feeding the Diamond dog food. While it is better than Iams, it's still a bottom of the line dog food. Try getting a premium food like Canidae, Nature's Variety, Timberwolf Organics, etc. People use Diamond for one reason and one reason only-it's cheap.

Sounds like we have a troll in the house.

Ezzy

[MarineX]

Big Steve 46 and Ezzy333,
Please state how it’s a quality kibble as the facts state otherwise. It’s easy to simply just state; “it’s good”…explain and tell us what makes it such in your opinion. Maybe being filled with useless ingredients is what qualifies as “good” for the two of you? What exactly do the two of you see in that kibble to remotely qualify it as “good” and/or recommend it? Like I said, the sole reason people feed it is because it’s CHEAP, not because it’s quality. Typical person thinks of their pocketbook when checking out at the register…not what’s best for their athlete!

Diamond Lamb meal and Rice:
Lamb meal, whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, millet, egg product, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), rice bran, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural flavor

So when looking at the top ten ingredients of Diamond-we see 1 meat source and 2 fat/oil sources. It’s clear as day this is a useless food with sup-par ingredients! Hence the reason they have the beet pulp added…keep fido from having constantly diarrhea, and the need to entice the dog to eat it with the natural flavors. If not added, their nose would tell them; “Stay away of the inedible junk”.

Canidae:
Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil

Notice the 4 quality meats sources and 3 fat/oil sources in the first 10 ingredients of this premium kibble! Also one can clearly see the necessary probiotics, fermentation products, chelated vitamins and minerals, and added digestive enzymes to help your dog fully-utilize the ration. Not too mentions it has a much higher Kcal/cup figures, higher pepsin digestibility, etc.

[Kiki's Mom]

Whoa...Back up Marine X!!!

Canidae is not the perfect food either! It is a an excellent premium food HOWEVER those multiple protein sources can cause just as much trouble as the next food. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL DOG!!!!!!!! Diamond makes a fairly decent product...the top of their Line being the Chicken Soup For Dog Lover's line.

NO ONE food has the throne on being "THE" best or greatest food on the market. The VERY BEST FOOD on the market is the one that works for YOUR INDIVIDUAL DOG.

Corn, Wheat, and Soy Fillers are the ingredients that are most common in the cheap grocery store brands. These are the truly CHEAP foods.....and are the ones to be avoided if you want to promote a healthy dog from within.

Now back to the original posters questions:
Check the Thyroid AND be sure that you have excellent flea control. Fleas can wreak havoc on a dog's skin and coat and while you may not always see those little buggers be sure that if you are not absolutely diligent with your flea control efforts they can get the upper hand very, very quickly on a sensitive dog.

[ohiohuntinweim]

saggaswild-I had a similiar problem with my weim on some brands of food, though not as severe. I finally switched to a venison and rice formula and it cleared up, I am now on a salmon formula as it has a higher protein and fat content.

If you'd like the name brands of the ones that worked for me PM me I'll be glad to let you know. Each dog is a little different and will respond to feeds differently.

[ezzy333]

Canidae is not the perfect food either! It is a an excellent premium food HOWEVER those multiple protein sources can cause just as much trouble as the next food.

Multiple sources are really great if you have a problem as you have no clue what the cause might be. And truth be told there is little advantage in having differnt animal source protiens as the amino acids that the dog uses is basically the same in all.

Corn, Wheat, and Soy Fillers are the ingredients that are most common in the cheap grocery store brands. These are the truly CHEAP foods.....and are the ones to be avoided if you want to promote a healthy dog from within

And this demonstartes another old wifes tale that has been disproven a thousand times. While corn and wheat have been recognized as the premier supplier of quality carbs to practically every human and animal on earth and soy has been proven to be the very best supplier of plant protien as well as many other attributes we still have people who just can't accept that they provide the same to our dogs as they do to other animals.

The VERY BEST FOOD on the market is the one that works for YOUR INDIVIDUAL DOG

This is the absolute truth if you de-ephasize the word individual. With few exceptions, what works for one dog works for most. Different work loads, different temperatures, and differnt housing can make a difference. And then the biggest difference is the owners that refuse to belief all of the research done over many years and think they know more about what their dog needs in it's diet than everyone else. There is not a food on the market that does not supply what your dog needs to be healthy. But some are pointed to the harder working more active dog and we call those premium feeds. And most of them are about alike also. At least your dog can figure it out as to which one he likes the best and does the best for it.

Ezzy

[MarineX]

Canidae is not the perfect food either!

Never once stated it was, if so please show me. The “perfect food” would be a whole prey model food (whole animal). Given the average dog owner is lacking in time, knowledge of canine nutrition, etc it also has its downside. I originally gave multiple kibble recommendations so the original poster could decide for themselves which is best for their dog. That's the dogs issues-nutrition! If it was thyroid like some suggested...the hair loss would be around the nose and on the ears typically.

It is a an excellent premium food HOWEVER those multiple protein sources can cause just as much trouble as the next food.

Yes it is and one of the best for the last 15 years or so. The multiple protein sources aren’t an issue and that’ natural for a dog. The issue/s stem from the oils added to dog food and other unnatural ingredients placed in the food that is.

Diamond makes a fairly decent product...the top of their Line being the Chicken Soup For Dog Lover's line.

“Fairly decent”…only in dog food would that be considered acceptable! If we were talking about dog training, instincts, retrieval, etc “fairly decent” would be considered-BAD at best. While Chicken Soup is a step up if using a Diamond product, it’s still a carb based diet is looking closely. It used to be there top-tier food but I believe now Call of the Wild is…though with anything Diamond makes we see none of their products are immune to neither recalls nor other kibbles processed by them.

Corn, Wheat, and Soy Fillers are the ingredients that are most common in the cheap grocery store brands. These are the truly CHEAP foods.....and are the ones to be avoided if you want to promote a healthy dog from within.

True, but Diamond has just as many useless fillers and ingredients in their products. Cheap and useless is still cheap and useless. It doesn’t matter if it’s a notch better…still cheap and useless in the end.

[big steve46]

Most dogs do well on most good foods, including Diamond. If you want to pay 2-3 times as much for feed that is a slight improvement, that's your privilege. Most good foods including Diamond are more nutritious comparatively speaking than the foods we feed ourselves. Dogs are Omnivores by evolution.

[MarineX]

Most dogs do well on most good foods, including Diamond.

If talking about only providing enough nutrients to sustain life and function, sure they do “well” then. Given the problems stated by the topic starter…dog is hardly doing “well” on those cheap useless foods.

If you want to pay 2-3 times as much for feed that is a slight improvement, that's your privilege.

Slight improvement, try drastic improvement in everything from health, conditioning, medical care, etc. Like the old saying goes; “you get what you pay for”. But let’s just see how much of a savings that Diamond is compared to Canidae. As clearly stated in a prior post, there is no comparison between the two in regards to ingredients. Diamond isn’t even in the ballpark. Let’s see how the two brands compare in terms of pricing. I’ll use prices obtained from petfoodsdirect.

Diamond Naturals Lamb Meal and Rice:
40lb bag - $32.39
Kcal content per lb – 1636
Cups per bag – 194
Cups per lb – 4.85
Cost per lb/cup – $0.81/$0.17
Recommended daily amount (50lb dog) – 2.875 cups
Daily feeding cost – $0.49
Day’s bag will last – 67.5 days

Canidae:
40lb bag - $38.68 (used the highest price to give Diamond every change possible versus the sales price of $33.99)
Kcal content per lb – 1875
Cups per bag – 160.3
Cups per lb – 4
Cost per lb/cup – $0.96/$0.24
Recommended daily amount (50lb dog) – 2 cups
Daily feeding cost – $0.48
Day’s bag will last – 80 days

Well Big Steve 46 it clearly shows your; “2-3 times as much” in regards to price, turned out to be completely inaccurate. Diamond actually cost more money to feed daily, a bag last 12.5 days less, has inferior ingredients, and etc. That of course is with me using the highest price for Canidae.

[ezzy333]

Why is it about every month there has to be someone who has a need to run everything down to make his favorite food sound great. I have never heard anyone say Canidai isn't a decent feed and I know for a fact that Diamond is a good one as are most every other brand if used for the intended purpose. And yet it goes on every month and its always a different feed that is so much better than all of the rest. It must have something to do with the phase of the moon. It has to be hard to justify a position when all of the evidence shows it is wrong. And that evidense is all around us, trial dogs, show dogs, working dogs, that all perform to a high degree and then the handlers and breeders with a kennel full of dogs that not only compare price but quality for their very existance and still that isn't enough to prove the quality of a dog food. I still think it must have something to do with the moon. Oh well, it does create contraversy and some people will say anything just to create it.

I would suggest that last months posts and the month before that and the month before that all be read before we continue this one so we aren't just repeating what has been said over and over.

Ezzy

[MarineX]

Why is it about every month there has to be someone who has a need to run everything down to make his favorite food sound great.

I wasn’t running it down, simply stating the facts. The thread starter had a dog with skin issues, stemming for improper nutrition. I simply recommended a more suitable kibble for a working dog, dog period. You made the statement; “sounds like a troll job” and Big Steve stated; “I didn’t know what I was talking about and Diamond was a good food”. Given that I explained exactly where I was coming from and why I stated such. Yet all you’ve offered to this thread is complaining that is void of actual information. You dislike what I wrote, recommended, and/or stated…simply prove it wrong.

I know for a fact that Diamond is a good one as are most every other brand if used for the intended purpose.

Then by all means please show those “facts” in regards to Diamonds quality! It’s all ready been pointed out it’s not in the ingredients, so unsure what facts you’re going to show?

And yet it goes on every month and its always a different feed that is so much better than all of the rest.

Yes it does and not only on this forum but on all working dog forums. That most likely is because most are clueless in regards to canine nutrition needs and only go by cost. Reason many will recommend a brand of food and yet can’t give one reason as to why they feel it’s a quality kibble.

It has to be hard to justify a position when all of the evidence shows it is wrong.

Yet you do and/or attempt to?

[big steve46]

I feed Diamond Premium, which costs me $20 plus tax for 50#. My 59 lb Setter eats about a lb a day so am spending about 40 cents a day or less. By the way, some dogs eat more than others. I'm sure my dog would eat about the same amount no matter what he is fed. Not all of us have the same " criteria and standards " in deciding what constitutes good dog food. Most of the time, we base opinions on comparative experience which is the most important. A few of us supplement our opinions with a history of actual training in nutrition.

[mountaindogs]

Alright. If a food switch would help it would help for mainly one of two reasons. Increasing the fatty acid content is one reason. You can supplement with fatty acids also. Or the dog has an allergies to something in the food. I have done the food trial and it's long and no fun, but have also been through trying to "diagnose" a skin disease and after 2 years and several thousand dollars nickel and dimed up on every little test and scrape, and med our vet wanted to try, we were only ruling things out, but the dog was getting worse. The food trial was the last resort before a referral to a specialist. And it worked. Fur started getting thicker in 3 weeks and itching stopped in about 5 weeks.

IF you try a food switch for allergies, be sure every protien and every carb source is unique from the foods you are having trouble with now. There are prescriction "elimination diets" you can feed as a test also. They are pricey, but can cut trial time by many months.

My dogs coats were fine on diamond, but never great. They have looked better on other foods. BUT different dogs DO show differences in which foods are best for them. My sheltie never did well on Eukanuba, but looked great on Purina One and Nutro. My Lab gets fat on Eukanuba and Nutro, does well on pretty cheap foods. My GSP's always look a little dull on diamond. Not bad but when you see them on the Native we feed now, or when they were on Eukanuba you could tell a big difference. I don't think any of these were allergies, just that certain ingredients worked better for certain dogs.

And given my experience, I'd reccomend if a food switch doesn't help, I'd go to the dermatology specialist to start with. It's very pricey and seems ridiculous, but you can chase a skin problem for a LONG time and spend many times what you would have by trying to save money and test one thing at a time.

The food that my allergy dog ultimatly did well on was a single protein single carb source, duck and potato formula.

I switched my dogs to a cheaper food when the Native price went up. Nobody looks BAD but everybody started shedding alot. The coat does not really look thinner, but is drier and shed shed shed! SO I just switched back to the Native and am going to have to bite the bullet on price probably.

[big steve46]

To improve your allergy-prone dog you might try Digestive Enzymes and Probiotics. Coat problems and shedding problems can be effectively treated this way. A lot of Vets may not use the approach properly or at all. After a period of time, probably months, the dog may be able to handle other foods. Just google up Digestive Enzymes for Dogs and check it out.

[mountaindogs]

To improve your allergy-prone dog you might try Digestive Enzymes and Probiotics. Coat problems and shedding problems can be effectively treated this way. A lot of Vets may not use the approach properly or at all. After a period of time, probably months, the dog may be able to handle other foods. Just google up Digestive Enzymes for Dogs and check it out.

Yes, I agree with this. I fed a puppy food for a while that had a high DHA but lower linolic (sp) acid content than some other foods, but also contained several different pro-biotics and the puppies coats looked great! Better than I had ever seen.

[MarineX]

I feed Diamond Premium, which costs me $20 plus tax for 50#

To each there own, seems the food is getting worse as the thread continues. I used those prices as that something everyone on this board could get it at. Of course price varies from region to region. I know both foods are cheaper than what one can buy local. I myself only pay $28 for Canidae, and get a free bag with every 5 purchased. But not everyone is on their breeder program nor another dog food companies so using such a price is not accurate to the average person.

My 59 lb Setter eats about a lb a day so am spending about 40 cents a day or less.

I truly hope that is a gross exaggeration on the amount you feed. If not, holy cow you feed that dog a lot (4.16 cups).

By the way, some dogs eat more than others. I'm sure my dog would eat about the same amount no matter what he is fed.

Yes they do hence the reason I went with what the companies recommended on their bags as to amount. Now nobody in their right mind would feed by those recommendations but they served the need in the comparison. No, your the dog wouldn’t consume the same being it would take a fraction of that amount to give him more nutrients than it’s getting now.

Not all of us have the same " criteria and standards " in deciding what constitutes good dog food. Most of the time, we base opinions on comparative experience which is the most important. A few of us supplement our opinions with a history of actual training in nutrition.

No we don’t that’s why you and other continue to state how “X” kibble is good when the facts state otherwise. What comparative experience you going on? What training in canine nutrition you have? I can’t see anyone with a remote understanding of canine nutrition feeding Diamond or even stating it’s a good food, especially that green bag junk. It’s ten-folds worse than the Naturals. You can’t even find one quality ingredient in it until you get down to the 8th ingredient! Wow 1 ingredient worth a darn in the first 10. That is some kibble and training you received. I’m sure you’re a great guy, knowledgeable in dog training, possibly breeding/genetics, and whatnot. I’m even sure I could learn a lot from you in those fields and if nothing more enjoy the discussion. But it’s clear you’re out of your element when it comes to canine nutrition.

[big steve46]

I won't waste any more time here with someone that is ignorant and close-minded.

[Greg Jennings]

Thread locked.

[ezzy333]

No we don’t that’s why you and other continue to state how “X” kibble is good when the facts state otherwise. What comparative experience you going on? What training in canine nutrition you have? I can’t see anyone with a remote understanding of canine nutrition feeding Diamond or even stating it’s a good food, especially that green bag junk. It’s ten-folds worse than the Naturals. You can’t even find one quality ingredient in it until you get down to the 8th ingredient! Wow 1 ingredient worth a darn in the first 10. That is some kibble and training you received. I’m sure you’re a great guy, knowledgeable in dog training, possibly breeding/genetics, and whatnot. I’m even sure I could learn a lot from you in those fields and if nothing more enjoy the discussion. But it’s clear you’re out of your element when it comes to canine nutrition.MarineX

So far there have been no facts presented. The comparative experience is twofold. First, we rely on the animal nutritionists and the people who are or have been involved in formulating and manufacturing dog food over the years and second, the vast experience of the people who are feeding hundreds of dogs with some of them being the top performers in this country. It would even add to the conversation if we could refer to the feeds you don't like by name instead of calling them junk. And I thought everyone knows you can't tell the quality of an ingredient by reading a bag. And now you have even told us we are out of our element when it comes to feeding a dog.

In just a few posts you have managed to downgrade every product other than your favorite, you have managed to down grade every ingredient other than the ones you like, and you have managed to insult every one of us that have been feeding dogs for years. And all of this without once sharing any knowledge that backs up your position. Facts are not facts just because you say they are. Superior intelligence and knowledge are not determined by a bias individual, and a long time valued member of this board does not waste their time insulting other people on the board.

If you have something to offer do it and stop all of the negative comments. We do talk about dogs and do not talk about the other people on the board. It does not promote your longevity and it is not what we are about.

Ezzy