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GSp too skinny

GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Fri May 23, 2008 12:16 pm

MY vet told me my 2 yr old gsp is 2 skinny. 57 pounds, but i can see most every rib and vertebrae. She is rather tall. He is guessing 10 pounds under muscle mass. We did a stool checkup and everything was fine there. She eats about 4-6 cups a day. Plus whatever scraps she takes from my 1 and 3 year daughters.

I have feed diamond premium since i got her (the green bag). I switched to diamond naturals beef and rice for 2 bags and saw no weight gain.
I just bought a bag of diamond 30/20 performance. It is getting spendy, $30.00 for 40 pounds. Anyway how long should i feed her that before i do something else.

Should i feed her more. Her stools are normal, but i don't want to overfeed and get runny stools. Any ideas for me. Can i add something into diet that will add weight easy.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby 1vizsla » Fri May 23, 2008 12:27 pm

Did the vet do anything else besides a stool check or a serial collection of stool as some parasites are cyclical? I would give a dose drontal just in case. From the pictures she is skinny and probably needs a higher protein /fat ratio. We also add missing link to our rescues that need weight gain and sometimes a dash of olive oil and ground beef (75%) to their dinners. They get 2 cups twice a day of Native level 3 (30/20) sometimes level 4 if we are running a lot. This is what we do but I would check with your vet again and follow his/her advice.

Carla
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby NC Quailhunter » Fri May 23, 2008 12:53 pm

I would have the vet sheck for some type of parasite to rule that out and then I would try another food. Maybe the Diamond formula doesn't work for her. I got my setter and she was on IAMS and was drastically underweight and I have her on Purina one as well as my GSP and weight gain and maintenance and energy levels are not a problem any more. I am not endorsing one feed brand overr another just staing that the formula may not be working for her.
Just my .02 cents.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Crystal kennels » Fri May 23, 2008 1:50 pm

Please dont take this wrong....but your dog looks terrible. Her coat is not good, her feet are flat and she is too thin. If her stool check is clear...I'd change foods because this food is not doing her justice. I'd feed something else besides Diamond and perhaps add ProZyme to her food. It helps them absorb the nutrients in the food and helps a whole bunch of ways. If after the food change (6 weeks) and she doesnt look any better...I'd ask the veterinarian for further work up.

When I have dogs here for training and cannot keep weight on them with a quality food (Pro Plan)...I add raw hamburger. It puts weight on them without giving them diarrhea......... when you keep increasing kibble...they tend to get diarrhea.

Hope you get this figured out.............. wish you well..........

Judy
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Fri May 23, 2008 1:56 pm

Thanks.
I can't do much about the flat feet. But what is Prozyme?
My vet did a full workup on the stool and everything came back normal.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Crystal kennels » Fri May 23, 2008 2:25 pm

Sometimes flat feet are caused by nutritional problems....... Sometimes its just conformation.

Prozyme is a nutritional supplement....a powder you add to the food. If you google it.. I'm sure it will come up..........

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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby snips » Fri May 23, 2008 4:36 pm

I am feeding Exceed 30-20 and it is a quality feed (Sams) for the money. I feed with a 1 lb coffee can and I would feed that dog 1 and 1/2 cans twice a day until she picked up. I bet that is almost double what you are feeding.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Fri May 23, 2008 6:25 pm

I picked up some nutrisource 32 protein 25 fat food. I am going to mix that for the rest of the diamond i have left and then switch completely over. I think she will get a lunch too. Hopefully within 6 weeks i will see a difference.

I don't have many options up here. The feed store reccommened that. It is made in minneapolis somewhere, and after 10 bags i get a free one or something like that. We will see. I just am not happy with the diamond and probably should of switched sooner.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Chaingang » Fri May 23, 2008 7:53 pm

dugger13 wrote:I don't have many options up here. The feed store reccommened that. It is made in minneapolis somewhere, and after 10 bags i get a free one or something like that. We will see. I just am not happy with the diamond and probably should of switched sooner.


Actually the Nutrisource is made up in Perham Minnesota by the makers of Tuffy's. It's their premium line and made in the same plant.

For additional fat add a tablespoon of vegetable oil to her dry kibble each day. Good for the coat. Preferably canola or flaxseed.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby ezzy333 » Fri May 23, 2008 8:04 pm

I see nothing wrong with changing feeds but I will bet you will get better results from feeding her more. I would let her eat as much as she wants for a couple of weeks and see what happens. If that doesn't work then change feeds. I add fat when I need more calories and it works.

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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Fri May 23, 2008 8:18 pm

If I brought that dog in to my vet, she would be doing a variety of tests and have that dog on a food plan of her choosing immediately. She'd also want me to bring in the dog every couple weeks for a weight check. I can't believe the vet sent you home wondering what to do.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby ezzy333 » Fri May 23, 2008 9:24 pm

Sharon,

Remember you are in charge and your vet is working as your advisor. It is there job to advise and yours to follow it if you want to. When the vet tells me what I am going to do rather than tell me what I should do is probably the day we split company.

I agree that the dog appears a little thin but it is hard to tell too much from a picture. Thin doesn't look pretty but is much more healthful than overweight. And most people wouldn't say a thing if a dog is ten pounds too heavy. Ten pounds too thin is more cosmetic than harmful so I would be using some common sense and trying to feed a little more and do it gradually. If nothing works then I would see if we could find some reason for it. Might just be hyper active as a young dog or might be thyroid after worms or parasites have been ruled out.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Sat May 24, 2008 10:46 am

We have two different opinions on what we want from a professional - which is o-kay.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby lvrgsp » Sat May 24, 2008 1:29 pm

No blood work, just a stool sample? I would have some blood work done immediately if you have not already. You started out with the Diamond green bag 26/18, and then went to natural beef and rice which is 25/15, the less protein and less fat switch probably did not help much. Your now on the Diamond performance 30/20. I would stick with that, it is a good feed. I see in the pics you have another dog, are you feeding your dogs seperately? If not start. Do you watch her eat? is she finicky does she have a good appetite? Just a few thoughts to help you along, but I would definately get some blood work done.

Chip
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby snips » Sat May 24, 2008 2:43 pm

I have young dogs brought in here on occasion that look like that, and (after my mouth stops falling open) I will just double their food for awhile and it takes care of it. The dogs usually gulp the food like they are starving, which they are. When I talk to them about it they say they were feeding the recommendations on the dog food bag, but they do not take into consideration an adolescent dog thats burning hi calories. Some people just cannot watch a dog and figure out they are not feeding enough. Once it is brought to their attn they do fine.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Sat May 24, 2008 6:04 pm

I am going to feed the nutri source 32 25 for about 3 bags and see what happens. I give her 6 cups a day, i will try 8 for the first 2/3 weeks. Hopefully i will see some improvement.

If not i will go back to the vet. He didn't recommend blood work at all.

Both dogs woof done their food pretty good. I watch them eat both meals, and neither will share with the other. No worries there. I am probably just under feeding. I think the combo of a the higher food value, and the extra 2 cups a day might do the trick.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby WildRose » Sun May 25, 2008 12:07 pm

Has your dog ever been diagnosed with giardia? I have seen a few dogs that after a severe case of giardia required months to fully recover. Due to the damage done to the gut lining by the infection it seems that the dog's ability to properly uitilize dietary protien is substantially reduced for a very long time.

If this is the case switching feeds isn't going to do you much good as it's simply going to take a great deal of time for the gut to properly heal.

If you haven't done so already I think I'd head back to the vet and discuss the possibility of giardia and have them test specifically for it.

I would also strongly suggest adding some cottage cheese, natural (unpasturized) yogurt, or some dry yogurt culture (available in health food/organic stores) to the diet for a while along with prozyme or other suppliments to make sure the dog's intestinal flora are balanced and active.

If the dog is having problems with protien uptake then it really doesn't matter how much protien you feed since it won't be properly metabolized.

CR
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby markj » Mon May 26, 2008 7:50 am

I keep a bucket of food in the kennel, they eat what they want and dont woof it down. Both are thin and fit as they also run the 4 acres I have radio fenced for them. This way I can leave em for a day or two with 2 buckets of foo and 2 buckets of water and no worries over them starving. When I leave for longer trips a neighbor kid comes and takes care ofthem, they just love that kid. I use PMI nutrition for active dogs, has like 27% protein, no soy. Buy 6 get 1 free too at the local feed store. One that is at the trainers eats too much and got a bit heavy but he will be back soon and I will regulate him for awhile till he is back to the bucket way of feeding. Give em small mounts and they turn into pigs....
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby shags » Mon May 26, 2008 8:25 am

I'd worry about the apparent loss of muscle mass. Have you considered this -

Protein-Losing Gastroenteropathy

The main function of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract is to absorb nutrients from food and eliminate the portions the body cannot use. Protein-losing gastroenteropathy is a complex disease of the stomach and/or intestine that prevents adequate absorption of proteins from the diet. The condition can result from disorders of the lymphatic system, long-term inflammation of the G1 tract, certain cancers, and fungal infections of the G1 tract.

An important sign of protein-losing gastroenteropathy is progressive weight loss, even when highquality diets are fed. Diarrhea may also occur, but it is usually sporadic.


For what it's worth, I've seen dogs do OK on a certain brand of food, then develop some sort of bad reaction to it, and get thin and poor-coated etc.

Good luck with bringing your dog around.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Mon May 26, 2008 8:06 pm

For what it's worth, I've seen dogs do OK on a certain brand of food, then develop some sort of bad reaction to it, and get thin and poor-coated etc.

Good luck with bringing your dog around.


I will keep this in mind when i bring my dog back before hunting season. Although she has never weighed more than what she is at right now.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby ezzy333 » Mon May 26, 2008 8:22 pm

For what it's worth, I've seen dogs do OK on a certain brand of food, then develop some sort of bad reaction to it, and get thin and poor-coated etc.

Good luck with bringing your dog around.shags


This could hppen but would be so rare I wouldn't even think about it. I will guarantee yo when something like this happens it is caused by something other than the feed they have been eating and doing well on. More often than not, all of the things we blame the dogfood for is caused by some other problem. It is common sense that when changes occur you look for something that has changed and not the things that haven't such as the food. It could be weather, could be internal pests or external ones, or maybe a different environment all together.

Try to figure out what has changed and what hasn't and look for the problem in the things that have changed. You will be right 99% of the time.

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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Mon May 26, 2008 8:47 pm

"she has never weighed more than what she is at right now." quote by Dugger 13

Now I'm confused. Are you saying she has never weighed more that what she appears to weigh in the pictures you posted?
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Tue May 27, 2008 7:12 am

Correct, This dog has never weighed more than 57 pounds, She has never lost muscle mass. Since the beginning she has been a tall skinny dog. In that picture, the day i took her to the vet, she weighed 57. last year before hunting season she was 55 pounds. I was thinking that as she turned 2 years old (happened on april 9th) show would be bigger, fill out more as she approached 2 years old.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Wed May 28, 2008 8:04 pm

Any blood test results?
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Wed May 28, 2008 8:58 pm

I haven't had blood taken yet. I am going back in before hunting season starts, i wanted to wait until at least i switch her food and see what happens.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby TrueBlu Shorthairs » Fri May 30, 2008 11:32 am

Some dogs just don't utilize the nutrition in certain foods well. Yes, I'd get bloodwork done asap. Further, I'd switch to a feed like Brenda recommended, Exceed, is chicken, and not meal or by products. Also, go to Wal Mart and buy their 70/30 tube FATTY ground beef and cook it for her for a few weeks. Add it to her food, maybe 1/2 pound and then full coffee can combined.

I do find it amazing that a dog that skinny and a female is actually 57 pounds. I've got a female that is leggy, somewhat rotund and weighs under 50.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Fri May 30, 2008 1:50 pm

I don't want to offend you Dugger but I am concerned about your dog.

There are several things that can cause a dog to be underweight, some of these include parasites, underfeeding and disease. If you discard parasites and disease than the solution is simple; just give your dog more food.

The problem though, as I read your responses, is that you haven't ruled out disease.

My vet would have given a precautionary worming and blood work etc is essential.

Changing food comes third.

I know these things are not cheap but please don't "wait until hunting season" to get a work up done on your friend.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby natetnc » Fri May 30, 2008 2:05 pm

Sharon wrote:I know these things are not cheap but please don't "wait until hunting season" to get a work up done on your friend.


agreed, if the extra food doesn't put on some lbs fairly quick i wouldn't wait months do do some more investigating. now would be the perfect time, off season. kind of like a sports athlete, nurse the body during the off season to get banged up a little when game time comes around.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby nitrex » Fri May 30, 2008 8:31 pm

If the blood work comes back OK, then you may need to feed more food. When I was a the George Hickox Seminar he used a suppliment for some dogs that were difficult to keep weight on. It was made by Elements. I think the website is:

www.elements-nutrition.com

Give them a call as they are very helpful!

Nitex
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby claybuster_aa » Fri May 30, 2008 10:33 pm

I think you will start to see some positives by year 3. She is a bit on the lean side, and her hips are showing, but probably just a hard-keeper, hard to keep the weight on and will start to fill out soon. My dog was very lean early, and I started to see changes in year 3. I had heard you keep them lean they may even live longer too. The hips are a concern but it sounds like she is eating enough at 4-6 cups, but probably could use a bit more strength out of the diet. I'd be pumping some meat and fat into her now. I would add up to 15% raw or fresh meat alongside with her daily rations. I would be looking to add any fat possible into the diet like chicken, beef, or pork fat as part of the daily ration. If you ever cook steaks or a roast, order a Prime Rib, I would give all the fat trimmings to this dog.

If you do serious upgrade of meat and fat in the diet expect diarrhea to follow but that will pass. Your dog will have going into year 3 that extra kick (proteins) from the meat and fat for that important year for filling out. You won't be disappointed with the results and benefits of added meat and fat proteins.

If the stools look fine, all seems normal, she acts like a normal and healthy dog, I wouldn't panic. I would instead look into ways in adding the extra meat and fat into diet.

Charlie
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby jbogacki76 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:53 am

OOMPH. This product is unreal and works. Let's all face it, most GSP's cant keep wght on because they are so active. This product was reccommended by a Kennel I use, and put all my trust in.

I had success with it and so did many others. All dog's like humans process food differently and this help breakdown the food more effectively so they get more nutrition out of a feeding. You can read more about it if you contact them.

D-M Engineered Nutrition 800-654-2569.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby TrueBlu Shorthairs » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:34 pm

Oomph is an excellent product, but if you feed lousy food it won't do much good.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby MikeB » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:32 pm

Dugger 13,

So after all this conversation what have you changed to put more weight on your dog?
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby big steve46 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:18 pm

Improving the digestion and assimilation may be the key. WildRose's recommendations are good. They will only work if you follow them say for a couple of months. Certainly, it's a good idea to rule out other pathologies. Those not ignorant in nutrition would most likely say the feed you have been using is good. There's always a possibility you may need to change feed no matter what you are using.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:51 pm

MikeB wrote:Dugger 13,

So after all this conversation what have you changed to put more weight on your dog?
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:00 pm

It has only been about 2 weeks or so since i switched food and started feeding her 6 cups a day of the 30/20 food i haven't weighed here yet, I have been in Seatlle working for a week, i am going to weigh her and see if here weight improved. i am thinking i need to weight at least another 2 or so weeks to see if the new food is having any effect.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:45 pm

Thanks for responding. Not trying togive you a hard time ; I'm just concerned about your dog. I'm a woman you know ; we get emotional about these things LOL
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby mountaindogs » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:15 pm

When I am trying to put weight on my GSP's, (my boys are especially hard keepers during the hunting season, and cold weather) I feed 2-3 times a day. If 3x I'll feed in the am aroun 8, then again at 5pm, then again at 9:30 pm or so. This way I don't feed as much at one time and they seem to digest their food better. Feeding this way my dogs usually look much improved in a week and by two weeks they look pretty good. But I already feed a 30/20 sometimes even higher now that we are feeding Native.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes after a few weeks 8)
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby djanderson » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:37 pm

Not to sound ignorant but...OOMPH is a product name? I've never heard of it before and a quick Google didn't return anything easily recognizable.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby MikeB » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:01 pm

When I searched GOOGLE and typed "OOMPH supplement for dogs" I found the web site.

Here it is... http://www.dairymanufacturers.com/oomph.htm
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby MikeB » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:11 pm

SATIN BALLS is a sure fire way that many owners of skinny dog have added needed weight. Easy for anyone to make.

Recipe for SATIN BALLS: http://www.njboxers.com/satin-balls-recipe.htm
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby djanderson » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:26 am

Thanks MikeB. I didn't narrow my search enough, I just typed in "OOMPH". That returned all kinds of stuff.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby upland-o » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:31 am

to get back on topic duggar, how is the dog doing since you posted?
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby dugger13 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:56 am

She looks bigger.
She was eating 6 full cups a day, now i think she is getting too full because she will leave food in her dish. So i just leave the food there all day, I would like to free feed the dogs. I am thinking they will self adjust.

I don't have a scale so i need to find a friend and get her on one sometime this week.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby tommyboy72 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:36 pm

I was feeding my pointers a 30/20 protein to fat ration and was still having problems keeping weight on them. Since switching to a Diamond 24/20 protein to fat ration I have had better luck. The extra protein speeds up the metabolism and burns fat. If you feed a lower protein with higher fat ration it will help to keep on weight according to my vet because it does not increase the metabolism so much but they still get that high fat ration.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Sharon » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:05 am

Most ( all? ) vets just let you come in and weigh your dog whenever you want.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby ezzy333 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:26 am

I can't think of a better place to get eposed to diseases and other problems than the vets office. I don't go near them if I don't have to.

Ezzy
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby Petra » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:14 am

the woman I train my dogs with has a male that she wasnt able to keep weight on, he looked alot like your dog , he is never still ,always moving even in a crate, alittle unstable, but she switched to the top native with him and he put on weight and his coat looks great, even had to cut him back , but there is a concern with the kidneys with a high protein amount for a long time, isn't there? there isn't any corn or even wheat in Native? allery problems? I saw someone else mentioned Native, she is very happy with how her dogs look, good luck.
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby MikeB » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:39 pm

Just an observation, Someone on this board mentioned that high protein foods 30/20 build muscle but burn fat so the dog stays lean. He mentioned lowering the protein and keep the fat up with 24% P and 20% F and the dog gained weight. Don't remember the food brand. With your trainers dog I would be using an enzyme digestive supplement to help retain more nutrients in what ever food she used.

PROZYME - http://www. prozymeproducts.com

OR

TOTAL-ZYMES -http://www.petenzymes.com
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Re: GSp too skinny

Postby mountaindogs » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:07 pm

stick with what you got for awhile - switching around alot is bad for them too. besides you want to gain both muscle and fat... not just fat, and protien is required for building muscle, repairing tissue, and lots of other things. Stick with it and let us know in a few more weeks :) adding in a prozyme type addative won't hurt, but do not add too much at once. I buy the probios at the co-op and give a little maybe once a week - once a month depending... but
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