What should I be looking for in a food?

[ezzy333]

What should you look for in a food? The best advice anyone could give you is one that your dog likes and does well on, one that is readily available and one you can afford. You have to remember you don't feed dog food but rather you are feeding your dog. It will tell you what works for it where no one else can. How many of you spend half as much time or effort deciding what to feed your kids as you spend trying to decide what to feed your dog? Basically, with few exceptions they are all good so pick one with an animal based ingredient listed first and go from there.

Ezzy

[Rick Hall]

3Bs - Yikes! I just took a moment to browse your links, and have to wonder just how closely you're checking your own sources?

Doesn't seem to be a canine nutritionist in the lot. Just a vet, who admits his nutritional training was lacking and cites anecdotal evidence, a .com writer with no credentials cited, someone who looked at what AAFCO's minimum requirements are and then states them as if using the absolute minimum allowable is universally practiced by feed companies, and someone whose qualification seems to be having done rescue work writing a cat article.

Not really carin', just sayin'...

[RayGubernat]

Gabe -

I cannot cite any documentary evidence, but I will just tell you what has worked for me in the past.

As far as puppy food, I have alwasy used Kasco Puppy formula which is a 30/20 feed(30% Protein, 20% fat. I typically keep the pup on puppy formula until it is about five to six months old and then switch to an adult formula that is similar in protein/ft content.

Over the years I have used...and gotten excellent results form numerous manufacturers, including Purina, Eukanuba, Joy, Wayne, Fromm's, Kasco, Maxximum Nutrition(Walmart), Exceed(Sam's Club) and most recently, Black Gold.

I believe that the major manufacturers' high end products are a whole lot more alike than they are different as far as ingredients and the quality of them are concerned...as well as a lot more uniform.

Without exception, I have used the performance formula for my dogs, typically 30/20 but occasionally going down to a 26/16 feed in the off season.

I free feed my dogs and they self regulate, eating less in the spring and summer and ramping up their consumption in the fall as the training gets more intense. Their energy and endurance level is consistent with a competitive field trial performer, becasue that is what they do and what they are. Their general health is excellent.

I am quite certain if you go to your local feed supplier and ask for prices on Pro Plan(Purina), Loyall(Nutrena/Cargill), Eukanuba(Iams), Black Gold or Diamond and then if they are nearby, check out Sam's Club for Exceed and WalMart for Maxximum Nutrition and then compare the cost per pound and how far you have to travel to get the food, you willl figure out which one(s) is/are the most economical.

30/20 dogfood is high end stuff, no matter who manufactures it and even the Exceed will be fairly expensive when compared to grocery store brands. However, you will feed far less food than the less "potent" store brands, your dogs will make far less stool and will have all the energy and endurance that you will ever need.

There are many good choices, I think. Much depends on what is available, close to you.

RayG

[big steve46]

Good post Ray. Just good common sense.

[3Britts]

3Bs - Yikes! I just took a moment to browse your links, and have to wonder just how closely you're checking your own sources?

Doesn't seem to be a canine nutritionist in the lot. Just a vet, who admits his nutritional training was lacking and cites anecdotal evidence, a .com writer with no credentials cited, someone who looked at what AAFCO's minimum requirements are and then states them as if using the absolute minimum allowable is universally practiced by feed companies, and someone whose qualification seems to be having done rescue work writing a cat article.

Not really carin', just sayin'...

Again Rick, I am not pushing an adjenda. The articles cited state several studies concerning pet food and its effect on dogs. The vet cites a study he conducted on the pets that he tends. This he states upfront so that the reader can judge for himself. The second source is a good reference source for those wishing to do further study and is run by a company who, if you would car to contact them, send articles out to be reviewed by those qualified in the field covered by the article. Finally, the study featuring a study of cat diets but with relevant information for dog owners, as dogs are a meat eating animal, focuses on studies done by vets and nutritionists. I also listed a study done by Fosters and Smith concerning the affects of corn and wheat in animal diets. There were many others but I decided not to list any that had ties to the food industry. Including one that listed corn as a good source of fibre because it merely focused on replacing beet fibre with that of corn and as it was conducted by those paid by the Illinois' ag industry. Nothing agains Illinois or corn. If I had not had a dog that reacted to corn in a negative fashion, I would probably still be feeding Pro Plan.
I entered this discussion as I have had problems with corn in foods. When I mentioned this, I received several warnings that a "forum member" would jump all over my statement. He did. I have since seen him jump on others for stating an opinion other then his. As I have never been afraid of opening my mouth I continue. As I enjoy learning from those who have more experience than I have, I continue. I thought that this forum would be opened to the exchange of ideas and, in many cases, I have found this to be so. Some conversations I stay away from as I either have no experience in or have no desire to debate the subject. This one troubles me as some have taken it upon themselves ridicule opposing opinions. umph?
Anyway Rick, thank you for making me quailify my use of sources. I should have done that in my original post.

3Britts

[Big Dave]

Ray hit the nail on the head.

[big steve46]

3Britts, I don't have any problem with your posts. I do believe many things are written by some to push usually an agenda to sell certain feeds. I think we should all keep an open mind. There is confusion re terminology sometimes, and how a substance such as corn is processed can make a difference. I don't claim to be an expert in dog nutrition. I have had many years of experience, and I do have an accredited degree in nutrition mostly related to humans. Bottom line is that we should try to see things in an open minded way, thus letting us learn new things.

[3Britts]

3Britts, I don't have any problem with your posts. I do believe many things are written by some to push usually an agenda to sell certain feeds. I think we should all keep an open mind. There is confusion re terminology sometimes, and how a substance such as corn is processed can make a difference. I don't claim to be an expert in dog nutrition. I have had many years of experience, and I do have an accredited degree in nutrition mostly related to humans. Bottom line is that we should try to see things in an open minded way, thus letting us learn new things.

Agreed. My degrees are in English and Rhetoric, not in nutrition. I do, however, have 30+ plus years of raising dogs and look forward to 30, hopefully, more years of raising dogs and learning what makes them tick. From all who share my passion.

[Rick Hall]

3Bs, I missed the part where I suggested you had an agenda to push, or cared. Just found it humorous that someone so fastidious about another's sources would be so loose with their own.

(Believe a sense of humor an important thing to have along when one opens an Internet dog food thread...)

[Greg Jennings]

Finally, the study featuring a study of cat diets but with relevant information for dog owners, as dogs are a meat eating animal, focuses on studies done by vets and nutritionists.
3Britts

Might be irrelevant, but just so no one gets the wrong idea:

Cats are, due to their shorter GI tract, obligate carnivores. Dogs, with a longer GI tract, are not. Dogs, however, do not have the GI tract of a herbivore.

While we can argue back and forth about corn, etc., I don't think anyone here is advocating 100% meat or 100% vegan for their dogs.

FWIW,

Greg J.

[Dobe]

Greg, you made me work for this answer! I remembered this from a conversation I had during my time at Young Harris College. Needless to say, I have slept some since then......
Here is a quote from answers.com:
"Differences
The basic difference between levels of professor according to the national academic system is that in North America, the designation is based on career, whereas in the rest of the world it is based on position. That means that if a North American Assistant Professor is performing particularly well, he or she can be promoted to Associate Professor, and if this is the case again, to (full) Professor. In the European system, the different fields and sub-fields of teaching and research are allotted certain (professorial) chairs, and one can only become a professor if one is appointed to such a chair (which then has to be free, i.e. unoccupied). Therefore, the different professorial ranks are not necessarily comparable.

Furthermore, "Professor" is also a honorific title, given when appointed to a professor's chair.

At some institutions, professors may be differentiated as either "teaching professors" or "research professors" for the same body of knowledge [citation needed]. There are also "corporate professors" in the work place [citation needed]. For example, a student/professional in accounting may have to incorporate many different fields of expertise to be considered adequately trained."

This may be the most posting I have ever done on any forum. Good luck to those of you who are looking for the right food. Talk to vets, talk to breeders, and listen to your dogs. Whether you go with Dog Chow or EVO, your dog will probably be just fine! Happy Hunting......

[wchua24]

hey there, thanks for all your post. this help me allot to know more about their foods.

[slistoe]

.... I am not pushing an adjenda..... If I had not had a dog that reacted to corn in a negative fashion, I would probably still be feeding Pro Plan.
I entered this discussion as I have had problems with corn in foods.

30+ years of raising dogs and you have had "a dog" that reacted to corn. Therefore corn is a bad ingredient to feed to all dogs......

26 years of raising dogs here and 15 years of breeding. I haven't encountered a dog that reacted negatively to corn. Perhaps some day I will. Perhaps some day I will encounter a dog that reacts negatively to chicken... or beef.. or venison.. or carrots.

I hope you removed the dog with the problem from the breeding pool.

[3Britts]

.... I am not pushing an adjenda..... If I had not had a dog that reacted to corn in a negative fashion, I would probably still be feeding Pro Plan.
I entered this discussion as I have had problems with corn in foods.

30+ years of raising dogs and you have had "a dog" that reacted to corn. Therefore corn is a bad ingredient to feed to all dogs......

26 years of raising dogs here and 15 years of breeding. I haven't encountered a dog that reacted negatively to corn. Perhaps some day I will. Perhaps some day I will encounter a dog that reacts negatively to chicken... or beef.. or venison.. or carrots.

I hope you removed the dog with the problem from the breeding pool.

If you had read all of the thread, you would have seen that I stated that corn can be bad, not that it is bad for all dog. I agree with those who said that if a food works for your dogs, use it. I do not use it because I have had problems. Simply decided to play it safe. I am currently using Kirkland's chicken and rice and have really liked it. My dogs have an abundant amount of energy for play and hunting, their coats are healthy and I have not had any reactions in their skin. I do occaissionally give them raw meat or an egg after a good day of trial or hunting.
As for the dog that did have problems, I did not breed her. I simply used her for a hunting companion.
I do wonder how many breeders have had problems based upon food and didn't remove those dogs from the breeding pool because they didn't recognize it? I think I'll start a thread.

[Gabe]

Gabe -

I cannot cite any documentary evidence, but I will just tell you what has worked for me in the past.

As far as puppy food, I have alwasy used Kasco Puppy formula which is a 30/20 feed(30% Protein, 20% fat. I typically keep the pup on puppy formula until it is about five to six months old and then switch to an adult formula that is similar in protein/ft content.

Over the years I have used...and gotten excellent results form numerous manufacturers, including Purina, Eukanuba, Joy, Wayne, Fromm's, Kasco, Maxximum Nutrition(Walmart), Exceed(Sam's Club) and most recently, Black Gold.

I believe that the major manufacturers' high end products are a whole lot more alike than they are different as far as ingredients and the quality of them are concerned...as well as a lot more uniform.

Without exception, I have used the performance formula for my dogs, typically 30/20 but occasionally going down to a 26/16 feed in the off season.

I free feed my dogs and they self regulate, eating less in the spring and summer and ramping up their consumption in the fall as the training gets more intense. Their energy and endurance level is consistent with a competitive field trial performer, becasue that is what they do and what they are. Their general health is excellent.

I am quite certain if you go to your local feed supplier and ask for prices on Pro Plan(Purina), Loyall(Nutrena/Cargill), Eukanuba(Iams), Black Gold or Diamond and then if they are nearby, check out Sam's Club for Exceed and WalMart for Maxximum Nutrition and then compare the cost per pound and how far you have to travel to get the food, you willl figure out which one(s) is/are the most economical.

30/20 dogfood is high end stuff, no matter who manufactures it and even the Exceed will be fairly expensive when compared to grocery store brands. However, you will feed far less food than the less "potent" store brands, your dogs will make far less stool and will have all the energy and endurance that you will ever need.

There are many good choices, I think. Much depends on what is available, close to you.

RayG

Thanks Ray and to those who stayed on point. it seems corn is a hot topic but I did learn a lot here.
BTW I was able to find a supplier of Diamond so I'll stay on that and look at other choices when it gets time to put him on an adult food.

[claybuster_aa]

Personally I am trying to make the switch to all natural foods and feeding a raw diet.

I think that is probably the best thing you can do, but you need to do your homework and get the raw diet right. Dogs and cats are at the top of the food chain, and their nutritional needs are more complex than that of ours. String beans are no miracle solve for problems. Dogs and cats are both carnivores and thrive and diets intended or designed for carnivores. They may not get hurt on lesser diets and fare quite well, but, odds are working against you and you are more likely to run into problems.

If others dogs have done well on Purina or any other foods of that type then more power to you and that is absolutely great. I was merely giving a reccomendation I do not get my nutritional education off of a dog forum though, but thank you for making that offer.

You can't get your information and education from dog forums being there is so much misinformation out there. If you listen to 90% of it, you may get the silly notion your dog is an omnivore or a ruminant. Don't be fooled into thinking dogs and cats are not at the top of the food chain and can thrive to their fullest potential on omnivore/ruminate diets.

However it is very credible that nutritionally Meat should be the first ingredient, there should not be corn in that food because like humans dogs do not digest this well, and there should be a variety of fruits and veggies.

Yes and No. Don't be fooled by catchy marketing. Some of the diets with fresh meat muscle as the first ingredient are the biggest offenders when it comes to misguiding the public. Due to processing of the vast majority of kibbled dry products, grains and fibers dictate the design of the ration and gluten source protein dictate the protein core of the food.... despite the 1st ingredient being meat. It is very easy to think your getting some decent seeing meat first, but most often the case your being deceived. That is why natural foods, home prepared, raw diets can be fantastic diets if you get them right. If you recall a GSP took Westminster Kennel about 4-5 years back and that was a raw feed dog.

OK, on to the corn...

5 years ago I would have disagreed with you. Ifed feeds with corn for 10 years, no problems to speak of, but corn has gone through some significant changes over the years and today I would say avoid the corn if possible. During the past 5-8 years holistic feed makers, and some others, have pulled out of corn. The reason is corn, especially the corn intended to go into the animal feed industry is GM corn, that is Genetically Modified Corn. They've messed with nature, it is not God's given corn from Ezzy's backyard, it has been genetically altered down to the DNA and all that technical stuff to be different. A lot of our foods are GM foods, but some for different purpose. White Rice, ie, has been genetically modified to be higher in beta-carotene. Corn has been genetically modified to be PESTICIDE RESISTANT. Not the pest itself mind you, but the pesticide.
That means if the farmer chooses, he can lay the pesticide on thicker, use greater amounts that would have otherwise killed the plant, in efforts to control pests. And that is where folks with some concern in this area, those choosing the holistic path for their animals, have to back off from the corn. I think my last look at some figures, we are full speed ahead in producing GM foods (illegal for sale in some countries), 63% of the corn crop is now GM, and those backing the production say don't worry...it's mostly intended for the animal feed industry anyway. The need for energy alternatives and the use of bio-fuels has no doubt been factored in to the justification. Is GM corn risky? Who knows…some will say no problem, they’ve done the testing. Me personally, I’ll opt for roadside corn from the small local farmers and they can keep big industry corn…use it to make gasoline.
Charlie

[wchua24]

Dog Food Ingredients
* Good protein ingredients you want to see are: chicken, chicken meal, turkey, turkey meal, lamb, lamb mela, duck, duck meal, beef, beef meal, eggs, etc.
* Limit these proteins: byproducts, corn gluten, corn gluten meal.
* Avoid these porteins: byproduct meals, generic meat ingredients (e.g. poultry byproducts, meat meal), corn as the first ingredient, corn gluten or soy meal as main ingredients.
* Good fats and oils you want to see are: chicken fat, ehrring oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, flax oil.
* Avoid fats and oils that are vague, like animal fat or poultry fat, and mineral oil.
* Good carbohydrates you want to see are: whole grains like rice, oats, barley, potatoes, peas. Corn can be included when in reasonable amounts and not a main ingredient.
* Avoid carbohydrates like: potato products, middlings, cereal food fines, etc.
* Avoid fiber ingredients like: corn bran, peanut hulls, rice hulls, soybean hulls, and oat hulls.
* Good preservatives you want to see are: Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Rosemary, Sage, Clove Extract, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin C
* Avoid preservatives ilke BHA (Butylated Hydroxysanisole), BHT (Butylated Hydroxytoluene), Ethoxyquin, TBHQ (Tertiary Butylhydroquinone), Sodium Metabisulphite.
* Avoid products with sugars, like cane molasses, corn syrup, sugar, sucrose, etc.

i saw this on a site. i would like to share it here.

[romeo212000]

Would you care to post the source?

[ezzy333]

I don't believe I would post the site I found that on either. Most of that just doesn't make a lick of sense.

Ezzy