Increase food or increase protein/fat%

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nanney1
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Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:42 am

Have a pup that is a ravenous eater. She cleans her bowl in no time and searches for more. I've continually increased her food amount every two weeks or so. Now, at 4.5 months old, she is eating 5 cups of Pro Plan Puppy per day. The food is spread out over 3 meals per day, 2 cups in the morning, 1 cup midday, and 2 cups in the evening. This is a 28/18 food with around 473 kcal per cup. I can easily feel ribs and backbone.

I would like to stick with Pro Plan so here are some of the options I'm considering. One option is to simply increase the amount of the Pro Plan Puppy. Another option is to go to the Pro Plan Performance which is a 30/20 with around 493 kcal per cup.

I have read/heard that with some dogs who are lean and active, that by increasing the protein/fat/calories, the dog simply has more energy to burn, and some will simply become more active and not gain any weight. Has anyone ever experienced that by going to a higher protein/fat food?

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by MikeB » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:39 am

At 4.5 months old that seems to me to be a lot of food per day. I would espect to see and feel ribs at that age. What is not digested is waste on the ground. Many dogs will eat any amount you put in the bowl. You want a lean pup well into 18 months to 24 months. Adding to much weight to early may cause problems later on. I would highly recommend using a digestive enzyme supplement with each meal to maximize the amount you are feeding and you can feed less over time.

Check out these products....

PROZYME - http://www.prozymeproducts.com

Total-Zymes - http://www.petenzymes.com/

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:38 am

Just so everyone knows, I'm not a hunter and my dogs aren't sporting dogs. Ihave Bernese Mountain Dogs which are a large/giant breed dog. So, even though the amount seems like a lot, my 4.5 month old pup is pushing 50lbs already.

I come here because I've founded that hunters are, in most cases, more knowledgeable about nutrition than pet owners. Too many people with pet dogs get hung up on ingredient lists as opposed to how their dog actually does on a food. If I were to ask this question on a typical pet dog forum, I would get lectured about the evils of corn, slammed for feeding Pro Plan, and told to go to dogfoodanalysis.com to find a better food.

Mainly just curious if anyone had seen a dog increase it's activity/energy level as a result of an increase in protein, fat and calories.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by High Voltage » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:55 am

nanney1 wrote:Just so everyone knows, I'm not a hunter and my dogs aren't sporting dogs. Ihave Bernese Mountain Dogs which are a large/giant breed dog. So, even though the amount seems like a lot, my 4.5 month old pup is pushing 50lbs already.

I come here because I've founded that hunters are, in most cases, more knowledgeable about nutrition than pet owners. Too many people with pet dogs get hung up on ingredient lists as opposed to how their dog actually does on a food. If I were to ask this question on a typical pet dog forum, I would get lectured about the evils of corn, slammed for feeding Pro Plan, and told to go to dogfoodanalysis.com to find a better food.

Mainly just curious if anyone had seen a dog increase it's activity/energy level as a result of an increase in protein, fat and calories.
I don't have an answer for you but we switch our pups over to Pro Plan Proformance the day we get them home. We have Lil Ol GSP's so not sure how that compares to your pup, we have not had a problem with it. We have talked to "dog" nutritionalist and they said there was nothing wrong with them having it VS the puppy food.

Too many people with pet dogs get hung up on ingredient lists as opposed to how their dog actually does on a food. If I were to ask this question on a typical pet dog forum, I would get lectured about the evils of corn, slammed for feeding Pro Plan, and told to go to dogfoodanalysis.com to find a better food. LOL not only "pet" owners :lol:

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:44 pm

I have never seen a difference and from what we know today i doubt if there is any difference. We used to think for years that sugar caused increased activity in kids and animals but recent tests show it just does not happen. I think what does happen is the placebo effect. Tell someone they will feel better and many will. Tell someone that sugar causes their kids to be hyper and many will think it does just because they are looking for it when in actuallity it just didn't happen.

Most people see what they expect to see so if you think it will increase the activity you will probably see a difference and if you are inclined to not believe it you won't see a difference. Thats why I was happy to see some test results that say it just doesn't happen. If I can find the material I will link you to it.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by big steve46 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:08 pm

Ezzy, you are wrong about the sugar. You can find researches that will say anything to support whatever you want to hear. You are usually correct, but you missed this one. Sugar is one of several factors that affects behavior, but it is an important one. The same researchers that ignore that are probably the same ones that recommend large amounts of sugar in infant formulas. However, they ignore the tremendous increase in Type 1 diabetes! In humans, the amount of ignorance in high places about nutrition is unbelieveable!
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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:11 pm

Steve,

You are talking about something completely different than increased energy or activity. Remember when they used to tell you to suck on an orange or something sweet during any type of physical activity. Since they have found that it temporarily does just the opposite till the sugar is assimilated then you are just back where you started. At least this is what I have read and also have bee told by trainers. It also has been published in books about hyperactivity in children.

I agree too much sugar can have other effects longterm but we were talking strictly hyper activity and energy levels.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:25 pm

Increase in Type 1 Diabetes isn't due to sugar. It is due to poor nutrition in North America. Don't forget that all carbohydrates turn into sugar. If you eliminate fruits, vegetables and good protein ( which people get very little of) , you get carbohydrates which make up a huge portion of the North American diet.

My little dog ( 28 pounds) is a ravenous eater too. I feed Pro Plan Performance all year in a controlled amount.
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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by topher40 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:09 pm

My experience has been that the dogs that clean their bowl in no time are the thinnest ones. Dont know why that is, but every dog I have had that eats at a ravenous pace is ALWAYS the thinnest dog I have, no matter what or how much I feed. I have a setter that takes ALL DAY to eat and is the fattest dog on the place. I have to run him 3-4 times a day for an hour a whack and road him to get the weight off. If the dog is in good health I wouldnt worry about how much they weigh, you may have a thin dog for life. Sure beats the alternative!
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big steve46
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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by big steve46 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:57 pm

Type I diabetes is brought about quicker by large amounts of sucrose, as is Type 2. To say it's a general poor diet problem is true but sugar is the most important component. There's a difference in calories as to how the workload affects the production of insulin for example. Sugar is an important precipitator of hyperactivity in kids, but other things are important also such as food colorings and dyes. The fact that many so called experts see some of this different does not mean they are correct.
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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by claybuster_aa » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:51 pm

nanney1 wrote:Just so everyone knows, I'm not a hunter and my dogs aren't sporting dogs. Ihave Bernese Mountain Dogs which are a large/giant breed dog. So, even though the amount seems like a lot, my 4.5 month old pup is pushing 50lbs already.

I come here because I've founded that hunters are, in most cases, more knowledgeable about nutrition than pet owners. Too many people with pet dogs get hung up on ingredient lists as opposed to how their dog actually does on a food. If I were to ask this question on a typical pet dog forum, I would get lectured about the evils of corn, slammed for feeding Pro Plan, and told to go to dogfoodanalysis.com to find a better food.

Mainly just curious if anyone had seen a dog increase it's activity/energy level as a result of an increase in protein, fat and calories.
Hello,
They are beautiful dogs and I wish you the best. Unfortunately, the breed has had some difficulty over the years fending off problems. You are correct about 'slamming' on a lot of boards and many of them are clueless. Not that I would advocate a supermarket kibble, I know a French Brittany going on about year 15, still hunting (slower of course) and fed Pedigree its entire life...go figure.

If you were to ask me, I would say avoid the veggie, grain, and fruit diets and stick with those diets richer in meats and fats. There have been a lot of people with dogs doing great on home cooked and raw feeding but it involves more time and a bit more money. I'm biased because I like what I do, others like my friend with the Britt going on 15 will swear by his feed.

Do you have a vet and what do they say? Do they talk about restricting food intake?

To answer your question, the answer would be no I think. She always has solid energy, and activity increases during hunting season. She will eat slightly more to meet the increased activity, but higher protein and higher fat diets won't make her bounce off the walls. Higher protein higher fat means they eat less. For example, say I feed 800 calories per cup and decide to bump it up to 1400 per cup. That will not cause my dog to become more energetic and have increased activity. All that means is she will consume less product over the long run. That product would no doubt be more expensive, but ultimately end up close to the same cost overtime because it would last longer assuming the box weight is the same. Instead of 1.5 cups per day I would probably only be feeding .75 cups per day.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:11 am

The reason I'm considering going from the Pro Plan Puppy to Performance is because of the addional protein/fat and resulting additional calories. My hope would be to feed the same amount of food while adding more calories. This would hopefully allow my pup to continue her growth without adding more food (quantity).

My concern was that by adding more calories, the pup would simply burn off more energy. But I don't know that it would happen. My guess is that as I get near the bottom of the current bag of puppy, I'll start the switch to Performance and see how it goes. Hopefully, I'll be able to continue feeding the same amount and her growth will continue at the same rate without having to pile more food in the bowl.

As I mentioned, I can feel every rib and her backbones. She is lean. And while I would consider her growth slow and steady, her growth would seem fast compared to a GSP female that might finish out at 60lbs. It's all relative to the breed.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:52 am

I would switch but not just to get more calories. Sounds like your pup is in excellent shape for it's age.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by SFK » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:02 am

I’d check with your vet before changing to a higher protein/fat ratio. There is some evidence, especially in large breed dogs such as you have, that you don’t want to give them too much protein/fat as puppies without having the proper calcium/phosphorous ratio to go with the protein/fat ratio. What the thought here is that the dog’s bones will grow so faster than the amount of calcium that is available. The possible result is rickets disease (bent/deformed bones). It doesn't hurt to check with your vet to see what they say.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by RoundRiver Setters » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:51 am

SFK wrote:I’d check with your vet before changing to a higher protein/fat ratio. There is some evidence, especially in large breed dogs such as you have, that you don’t want to give them too much protein/fat as puppies without having the proper calcium/phosphorous ratio to go with the protein/fat ratio. What the thought here is that the dog’s bones will grow so faster than the amount of calcium that is available. The possible result is rickets disease (bent/deformed bones). It doesn't hurt to check with your vet to see what they say.
I definately agree with SFK on this one.....you dont want a large breed dog such as yours grow too fast...that can cause a host of problems!!!...Talk to your vet, or even a few different vets to get others opinions. Might not be a bad idea to check for internal parasites too, if you havent already lately.
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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:19 am

This is my third Bernese Mountain Dog and I'm very familiar with the problems assoicated with excess calories and high calcium levels.

Excess protein, while once believed to be a contributor to bone and joint maladies with large breed pups, was refuted in later studies. Excess calories from overfeeding or free feeding, combined with excess calcium levels, were found to be the culprit. Studies by Richard Nap and H.A. Hazewinkel cover these topics extensively. An article which summarizes these findings is "Optimal Feeding of Large Breed Dogs" by Jennifer Larson, DVM. This article pretty much covers the topics and lists the references to many studies on this topic. If you have large Weims or Labs, these studies might be of interest.

The Calcium and Phosphorus levels for Pro Plan Puppy and Performance are well within the acceptable levels.

However, a check with our vet is always a good recommendation.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by SFK » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:31 am

I'm not worried about too much calcium but not enough. Saw two cases of this first hand this year. Pups were fed a very high protein/fat feed (over 30/20). Pups ended up being put on Calcium pills and a less hot feed and their bones straightened out for the most part.

Sounds like you’re informed on the growth issues with puppies and that is what I wanted to make sure you were aware of. Let us know what you decide on.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:46 am

SFK: out of curiousity, what type of pups had the problems, and what was the type of food? I've heard of some problems with Eukanuba. Some of their foods have lower levels of calcium and phosphorus. Levels that are too low can also cause problems.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by MikeB » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:37 pm

Nanny1,
I'm confused... If this is your 3rd Bernese and your so familar with the effects of increased protein and fat then why the question in the first place?

Hasn't there been plenty of proof that feeding large and giant breed pups a much lower protein/fat food during the major growth period much safer for bone growth problems like Pano and OCD.

Secondly, if you had posted what breed of puppy you had in your first place, I wouldn't have bothered posting. Feeding a hunting dog pup and YOUR Berner pup is a totally different program. IN MY OPINION OF COURSE!!!

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:34 am

MikeB,
The thread kind of took a turn at some point. My original question was whether or not an increase in protein/fat/calories can lead to an abundance of engery, i.e. creating a hyper dog that simply burns off the additional calories. The reason that I was looking at the more nutrient dense Pro Plan Performance was in an effort to not increase the quantity of what I'm currently feeding.

Secondly, no there is not proof that feeding higher calorie, higher protein foods can lead to bone/growth issues. The original study on Danes back in 1974 did not account for calcium. Further studies, from the researchers I mentioned, corrected for calcium. The major issues are overfeeding and/or too much calcium. However, many breeders still remember protein being listed as the culprit and continue with lower protein/lower calorie adult foods for large breed pups. Not necessarily a bad idea, but not based in research.

My original question was more general in nature, as opposed to breed specific. I hope that explains where I was coming from.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by SFK » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:42 am

Nanney1,

Brands of feed used in both cases are really not the point as in both cases the feeds had listed on the bag not for use with puppies. In both cases a very high protein/fat feed was feed to the pups so it is more of an owner education issue than a feed issue. The pups bones grew faster than the amount of calcium that was available and deformities around the front ankles occurred.

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Re: Increase food or increase protein/fat%

Post by nanney1 » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:17 am

Needed to pick up some feed as my current bag of Pro Plan Puppy was almost gone. The decision was easy as my local Tractor Supply was out of Pro Plan Puppy and didn't have any on re-order. They had just gotten in a new shipment and had Performance or the new Shredded Blend, which I didn't want. So, I went ahead with the PP Performance. I've had good results with the PP Puppy and previously with my adult dog on the regular Pro Plan Chicken and Rice Adult.

I'll report back after a couple of bags of Performance has been fed.

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