Glycogen replacement/Carbo Gain

[Scott Linden]

Hey guys,

Just back from 3,700 miles of hunting and what a great way to start the season. Details and photos at my site: www.scottlindenoutdoors.com.

Tried the Purina/Arleigh Reynolds DVM idea of feeding immediately after hunting, plus adding maltodextrin to jump-start the muscle glycogen repleneshmint process for the next day.

I'm sold. Still fine-tuning the dosage, but so far, so good. I got the Carbo-Gain at a store catering to body builders.

See you down the road.

[Greg Jennings]

Scott,

If you hunt around on the web, you can find pure maltodextrin at very good prices.

One problem no matter what the product is getting it dissolved. I found that having a thermos of warm water and a shaker bottle helped a lot.

Also, I don't think people should get the idea that it substitutes for good conditioning. In fact, it worked BEST for me in the context of a good conditioning program.

Greg J.

[Scott Linden]

Scott,

If you hunt around on the web, you can find pure maltodextrin at very good prices.

One problem no matter what the product is getting it dissolved. I found that having a thermos of warm water and a shaker bottle helped a lot.

Also, I don't think people should get the idea that it substitutes for good conditioning. In fact, it worked BEST for me in the context of a good conditioning program.

Greg J.

With you 100% Greg. Conditioning is critical. Why dissolve? While I mix with warm water and put on his food, why not just sprinkle it on? And any idea what would be an ideal dose for a 55 lb. dog? Thanks.

[Greg Jennings]

There are a couple of reasons to dissolve in water. But, it really all comes down to needing to get the maltodextrin in them within 30 minutes or so after exertion.

Example: A lot of people, me included, feed once per day after all the hunting is done and the dog has cooled down.

So, if the dog is hunted hard in the morning, there is no feeding to sprinkle it on. Now, I might give them a half-cup or the like, but not the 4+ cups that they get when we're hunting hard (almost twice normal).

Also, dogs are often not willing to eat after coming out of the field. They'll almost always drink, though.

I'm not sure on the science of how much to give them. I think the Purina article that djwizz pointed us to had good info. I've always given them 1/4 to 1/2 of the scoop provided with the Carbo Gain, Weight Gainer 2200 or whatever I'd last had available. The idea there is that the scoop is for a 200 lb human and taking a proportion for a 50 lb dog. Not very scientific, but it appears to work.

[Scott Linden]

There are a couple of reasons to dissolve in water. But, it really all comes down to needing to get the maltodextrin in them within 30 minutes or so after exertion.

Example: A lot of people, me included, feed once per day after all the hunting is done and the dog has cooled down.

So, if the dog is hunted hard in the morning, there is no feeding to sprinkle it on. Now, I might give them a half-cup or the like, but not the 4+ cups that they get when we're hunting hard (almost twice normal).

Also, dogs are often not willing to eat after coming out of the field. They'll almost always drink, though.

I'm not sure on the science of how much to give them. I think the Purina article that djwizz pointed us to had good info. I've always given them 1/4 to 1/2 of the scoop provided with the Carbo Gain, Weight Gainer 2200 or whatever I'd last had available. The idea there is that the scoop is for a 200 lb human and taking a proportion for a 50 lb dog. Not very scientific, but it appears to work.

Trying again:

I like the idea of dissolving the powder to speed up absorption! Thanks. I do add water to his feed, after sprinkling the powder. I'll give it more time to dissolve. Guess I should dig a little deeper into the tub - never got a scoop with my Carbo-Gain, that I've found yet at least.

[Greg Jennings]

Hi Scott,

It's been a long time since I used Carbo Gain. I have a scoop from a comparable product right now. I'll see how much it is in cups and report back.

[luke0927]

it's just like a human who works out how needs proper post work out nutrition you need to replinish the glycogen withing 15 to 30 minutes tops......a cheaper and just as affective way is to use kyro syrup...if the dog will not take it straight you can mix it with some water around 3 tablespoons. Basically its just a simple sugar that gets shuttle to the muscle as carbs and replenishs the glycogen.....maybe some of the name brand things have other supplements so im sure they are good but if you want to just replinsh glycogen no need to spend money on all the expensive stuff....

[Greg Jennings]

Karo is going to be too short chained to have the effect that maltodextrin will. There is tons of research behind this.

Pure maltodextrin is cheap as dirt and the dogs don't need fancy labels or a banana split flavor.

[luke0927]

have you ever heard of waxy maze starch? This is what i use for my post workout. Its a simple sugar much like dextrose but it bypasses the stomach and goes directly to the intestines for absorption.....Now im not going to go give it my dog but i wonder if it has ever been used for dogs? you can get it unflavored

[Greg Jennings]

I've seen quite a bit about WMS. I think it's "Maize", though.

In theory, the higher the molecular weight of the carb, the better it is for glycogen replacement. Malto's MW is 300 X that of dextrose. WMS's MW is 100 X Malto's. So, in theory,WMS would be the better supplement.

As an aside, that's the problem with Karo. It mostly fructose which has a lower molecular weight than dextrose. It also has a bad rap, perhaps undeserved, for acting on the liver vice muscles.

That's the theory. In practice, I got into malto for dogs based on the Purina research. I.e., someone doing real research on dogs. I've got an eyeball on WMS, but I'm not going to put my toe into the water till someone does some research or at least someone is using it successfully on their own dogs.

Greg J.

[luke0927]

I've seen quite a bit about WMS. I think it's "Maize", though.

In theory, the higher the molecular weight of the carb, the better it is for glycogen replacement. Malto's MW is 300 X that of dextrose. WMS's MW is 100 X Malto's. So, in theory,WMS would be the better supplement.

As an aside, that's the problem with Karo. It mostly fructose which has a lower molecular weight than dextrose. It also has a bad rap, perhaps undeserved, for acting on the liver vice muscles.

That's the theory. In practice, I got into malto for dogs based on the Purina research. I.e., someone doing real research on dogs. I've got an eyeball on WMS, but I'm not going to put my toe into the water till someone does some research or at least someone is using it successfully on their own dogs.

Greg J.

I know i like it for human consumption much better than Dextrose and Malto it is great for post workout nutrition. i would like to see some studies of it on dogs if you hear or anything be sure and report it on here.

[Greg Jennings]

Scott,

Try 1/2 cup.

[Chaingang]

I thought I would chime in here on the subject of Glycogen replenishment with a review of a product I just tried for the first time on a 5 day hunting trip to Nodak. The product is called "K9 Restart" made by a company called Techmix Inc. http://www.sportingdoghealth.com/index.php

I heard about the product through a well respected veterinarian who hunts and uses it on his own dogs successfully. After using the product I was very pleased see how the dogs bounced back each day with excellent energy levels, where previously they may start to show a little less get up and go on each succeeding day. Nice thing about this product is it comes in 3 different forms (Powder, bars, or chewables). I opted for the chewables and bars as this seemed very convenient to use before, during and after the hunt. Dogs were fed once a day at the end of the hunt, with a couple bars given in the am and at midday, then chewables mixed in with the feed at the evening meal.

All in all it seemed like a good product and did as advertised. I might only use a product like this on extended hunting trips for that little extra burst of energy needed from several days of hard hunting.

[nitrex]

I have been using the "Elements" products for about 4 years now. I am impressed with the "R" (for recovery) post workout supplement. Go to the website and give them a call. They will answer all you questions. The developers of the products participate in retriever trials.

www.elements-nutrition.com

Nitrex

[Scott Linden]

Scott,

Try 1/2 cup.

Will do.

[R-Heaton]

This in my opinion works great and I am a big believer in it. Check out the website and let me know what ya think,,,, the vet that designed this product is great to talk to and willing to answer any questions about the science that goes along with this product. K9EnergyEdge.com

[R-Heaton]

Scott,,,, did you happen to check out K9 Energy Edge and what did you think?

[djswizz]

Scott,
I'm with you on this. I started a thread about this and got the recommendation from Greg about Carbo Gain as well. I used it on my week long hunt in Oct up in ND. I am sold as well. My dog, as well as my dad's, had amazing amounts of energy everyday. I gave them a half cup after their hunt, which I also mixed in with their food (wet/dry mixed). I actually take it after my weight workouts as well. My energy levels are sky high when lifting. Love this stuff. Buying the 5 lb tub when I run out. It's like $20 or something. Super cheap.

[Rick Hall]

My question is just how anxious dogs are to drink unbaited maltodexrin or Carbo Gain disolved in water?

(Have been using a baited version called "Glycocharge," which the dogs think a great treat and drink every drop of for a few years, now, but it's not nearly so cheap as plain maltodextrin.)

[Llano Shorthairs]

Here is a quote from an article by Dr. Arleigh Reynolds and Dr. Jim Cline "Dogs...given 1.5 - 2 g carbohydrate/kg body weight post exercise in the form of maltodextrins were able to recover, on average, about 50% of pre-exercise glycogen stores within 4 hours of exercise and about 85% of pre-excercise glycogen with 24 hours, while dogs fed but not supplemented recovered less than 40% of their pre-exercise glycogen after 24 hours".

If my math is correct, that would translate to about 1.6 oz of maltodexterins for a 50 pound dog.

Joe

[Greg Jennings]

My question is just how anxious dogs are to drink unbaited maltodexrin or Carbo Gain disolved in water?

(Have been using a baited version called "Glycocharge," which the dogs think a great treat and drink every drop of for a few years, now, but it's not nearly so cheap as plain maltodextrin.)

I mix it in their drink afterward. It's doesn't have much of a taste, perhaps mildly sweet. The don't seem to notice it.

If the glycocharge combo of maltodextrin and liver powder works well, you might check in to getting powdered beef liver. I have seen it available on body building sites.

[Scott Linden]

Scott,,,, did you happen to check out K9 Energy Edge and what did you think?

Haven't yet. But will. And thanks for the additional info on amounts for Carbo Gain, everyone.