Twisted Stomach - Surgery done.....

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:44 am

My 2yr old Pudelpoint ended up with twisted stomach last night. We hunted chukar during the day. Came home and fed her, her normal 1.5cups (I feed twice day). Shortly after she started acting funny. After a little bit we guessed what was going on and rushed her to an emergency vet. They operated on her last night and she got through that ok....but seems like we have some major hurdles to get over before she is in the clear. Heart arrhythmia's, pneumonia and sluffing of the stomach are major concerns at this point. Should know outcome in the next 3 days.

Anyone have a dog go through this? Hunting issues after the fact?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:57 am

Yes I have been through it,had to have a dog in her prime put to sleep on the operating table because of it.The first time it happened the vet relieved the gasses with a syringe into the stomach,then massaged her stomach back into position.A couple yrs later she twisted it again & I didn't catch it till it was too late,she looked like a 55 gallon drum.They operated on her but the circulation to her stomach,spleen,& few other organs had been cut off & she had gang green.I hope all turns out well it's not pleasant to see this happen to your friend & huting companion.Best wishes for a healthy recovery.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:06 am

I don't have any really valuable info about this. Have a friend in my NAVHDA club that has Spinones that's had that happen two times with different dogs. One dog snarfed up piece of drywall during construction, and later twisted trying to heave it up after the drywall had swollen in the stomach. The dog immediately looked horrible and she ran her off to the vet. She gave me the impression that this medical issue can be common with that breed. Her dogs are fine now, after a few thousand dollar medical bill. I don't know that she hunts them that hard...as far as further implications go. As I understand

, once the stomach is stitched in place, scar tissue forms around the area.........and while the dog can still bloat, the twisting factor is greatly reduced. That's my uneducated word-of-mouth knowledge. Good luck and best wishes for the pooch. Denise

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:11 am

The Dr said they stitch the stomach to the rib wall to try and keep it from flipping again in the future...but the % of bloating recurrence is definitely higher.

This sucks...

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:07 am

She's gone....

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:12 am

I am very sorry. She was way too young.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:06 pm

This is a hard one to take. Very very sorry to have anything like happen and especially in this way.

Ezzy

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:07 pm

I'm so sorry!

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:08 pm

I am so sorry. I had high hopes for her. Denise

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:16 pm

Thanks...it just really hurts

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:25 pm

Very sorry to hear about your families loss

She might have been young, but in the span of things I bet she gave you the best years of her life. She wouldn't have wanted to spend those days with anyone else.

Jeff

Dennmor · Post by **Dennmor** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:16 pm

Very,very sorry...

gar-dog · Post by **gar-dog** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Oh this is terrible! Very very sorry to hear about this.

When you can, you should let Stonesthrow know about it, just so they know.

lightonthebay · Post by **lightonthebay** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:09 pm

Sorry for your loss.

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:22 pm

I am sorry for your loss. I have a friend that lost his first DD to the same thing.

briguyz71 · Post by **briguyz71** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:13 pm

Very sorry for your loss.
Bri

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:55 am

Im very sorry for your loss. This is why I never feed my dogs before hunting or trialing. It's just not worth it.

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:02 am

romeo212000 wrote:Im very sorry for your loss. This is why I never feed my dogs before hunting or trialing. It's just not worth it.

It's not only the "before"...it's the after that can cause this as well. My dogs problems occurred after the hunt....

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:49 am

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and can't imagine your pain right now. I have to say that I have knowledge from this that I didn't have before. I knew about feeding before a hunt/run....but until your post and doing some googling, I never knew that after could be so detrimental as well......... Denise

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:56 am

It has been documented that a 3 to 4 hour wait after heavy exercise is just as important as the 12 to 24 hours before.

Ezzy

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:01 am

ezzy333 wrote:It has been documented that a 3 to 4 hour wait after heavy exercise is just as important as the 12 to 24 hours before.

Ezzy

that is nice to know..... i have always fed right after hunting, guess i have been lucky so far but will now give them some time between.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:07 am

[quote="gdog"]. Shortly after she started acting funny. After a little bit we guessed what was going on and rushed her to an emergency vet. quote]

I'm very sorry. I've lost a couple dogs and I know how much it hurts.

I've wondered if it's worth having a dog, when i'm going through that grief.

When you're feeling up to it, perhaps you could explain the above part of your quote so I know what to watch for.

Thanks.

Dennmor · Post by **Dennmor** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:43 am

natetnc wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:It has been documented that a 3 to 4 hour wait after heavy exercise is just as important as the 12 to 24 hours before.

Ezzy

that is nice to know..... i have always fed right after hunting, guess i have been lucky so far but will now give them some time between.

Me too!
And thanks,
that's the kind of info that just might save one or two.
dennmor

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:02 pm

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. For those who have been through something like this....know...how gut wrenching it is. Roxy was a part of our family and sometimes got more attention then the two legged members...so says the wife. The last two days have been brutal. I work out of my house, so Roxy was my constant companion. Its so empty around here now. As said...its so hard...it makes me question whether I want to get back into this again....

If anything good is to come out of this, I hope everyone takes a minute and searches on gastric torsion or twisted stomach/gut. This is taken from what I have read and I claim to be no expert...so please add or correct where needed.

In clinical studies, they have been unable to repetitively reproduce this event. There are theories/thoughts on precautions that can be taken, however there are no guarantees. The most common suggestions is not to feed your dog prior to hunting or strenuous activity. Dog metabolism works differently then our own and do not benefit from a big breakfast prior to exercise. Quite the opposite is true. Others will be much more versed on this and can probably add some solid information. In addition to pre hunting feeding, post hunt feeding can be a cause as well. It is suggested that you feed your dog no sooner then 2hrs from the end of hunting/exercising. Even after waiting 2hrs, some say if it was a strenuous workout...that the feeding be cut in half...with the 2nd half being offered 2 hrs after the first. This is were my dog was affected. I fed her probably 1.5 hrs after we got into the truck from hunting. She ran hard and consumed a bunch of water. She only ate 3 cups a day and this was split into am/pm feedings. Water + a bunch of food can bring on bloating which in turn can make the stomach twist. There are cases of this happening to dogs even without the food(?) I found info that said to limit water intake after feeding for a period of time and not to add water to the dry food making it soupy(?) All trying to keep the dog from getting bloated. I do not know if this is genetic or not. If anyone knows please post up. Its said that dogs with deep chests are more pron to the problem.

In regards to symptoms, Roxy became restless. Couldn't get comfortable. Normally after eating, she would jump in a chair and nap..but she couldn't. She was up and down. She started trying to throw up but couldn't come up with anything. Roxy loved smelly things to roll in or eat. She had grabbed a few mouth fulls of horse crap on the trail while hunting and I thought this was just making her sick....as it has in the past. This went on for a bit and then she started stretching he neck off to the side in a weird manner. I believe she was trying to alleviate the bloating and pressure. She was passing gas as well. That's when we noticed her abdomen was enlarged. She also started to whimper. This is when we rushed her off to the vet. In all from when we noticed the first signs to when we took her to the vet...was probably less then 2hrs.

When we took her into the emergency vet they gave me the 50/50 % speech and made me sign off on an estimate for the surgery $2100-2500. What choice do you have.....I said do whatever it takes....

Its such a random and out of the blue situation, that there's not much you can do. Response time is critical and even then its a shot in the dark.

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:55 pm

Sorry for your loss.

I understand the situtation you are in and the stress it causes. I brought my shorthair in to the vet Tuesday morning and they called me 10 minutes later and told me my guy twisted his stomach. They gave me 10 min. to decide because they said the intestines start to die off ASAP because of blood loss.

Here's a link i reviewed: http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm

Once again, I am sorry for your loss.

Killer Instinct · Post by **Killer Instinct** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:53 pm

Thoughts & prayers are with you and yours at this time....
I'm so sorry....

demi · Post by **demi** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:40 pm

So sorry for your loss. Thanks for sharing and educating us. I will be more careful about waiting longer to feed after hunting.

Another dog never replaces the ones we lose...but it may help with the healing and moving on. I've been in your shoes with saying goodbye to a good dog way too soon, and remember those same thoughts--that I didn't think I could ever risk going through that again. But we did, and it has been good.

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:44 pm

gdog wrote: In clinical studies, they have been unable to repetitively reproduce this event. There are theories/thoughts on precautions that can be taken, however there are no guarantees.

First, sorry to hear about your loss. In the research, you will find everything from gulping food too quickly, limit water after a meal, limit the exercise, raise the food bowl, and even too much citric acid. It will always be touted as a mystery ("unable to repetitively reproduce this event") from the perspective of the dog food industry, and from the "clinical" side as well. We know the common denominators: kibbles that expand, water that promotes the expansion, activity and stress, and the breed size prone to risk. From the common denominators, avoidance of the combination of them is probably the best defense. Not an issue with wild dogs eating natures diet, not an issue with raw feeding programs and home-prepared diets. Probably not an issue with those feeding exclusively canned diets. Kibble is the contributing factor and the constant expansion process, combined with the other variables, breed size and exercise. Avoidance then is the best defense. Certain kibbles can expand more than others and it’s the dehydrated fiber contained within that soak up the water. I read beet pulp is one of the biggest offenders when it comes to expansion and can expand up too 250%. Tomato pomace is another expansion type fiber and both beet pulp and tomato pomace are fairly common ingredients. If you're dedicated to kibble diets then I think your best defense is getting into the habit of always soaking kibble prior to feeding so all the expansion takes place before hitting the stomach, then discarding any uneaten portions of food after few hours. If you make that routine, I think you can reduce the odds.

natetnc · Post by **natetnc** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:33 am

claybuster_aa wrote:If you're dedicated to kibble diets then I think your best defense is getting into the habit of always soaking kibble prior to feeding so all the expansion takes place before hitting the stomach, then discarding any uneaten portions of food after few hours. If you make that routine, I think you can reduce the odds.

gdog wrote:I found info that said to ............not to add water to the dry food making it soupy(?) All trying to keep the dog from getting bloated.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:49 am

I don't think you can find any place that advocates adding water to a dry food. For a matter of fact that is one of the things warned against. Doeesn't seem to matter if the food gets wet inside or out since it appears the heaviness of the food that stays in a fairly small clump in the stomach that maybe the culprit.

Ezzy

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:44 am

I'm not the only one who has read or heard about soaking kibble. Yea, some say maybe just an old wives tale, but it makes sense to me...let the food expand prior before hitting the dogs stomach. The important think to remember is to discard uneaten food because it won't keep, it will form bacteria. Remember, what causes bloat is a big mystery (that is what we are led to believe). Vets have no definitive answer, and like the OP has stated earlier...there is no guarantee. I show you this quote so you know, I am definitely not the only one has heard or recommended, let the kibble expand prior.

There are simple preventive measures to help keep your pet from becoming a casualty of bloat: 1. Divide the day's food into several portions. Feed 4-6 small portions over the course of the day if possible. 2. Soak dry food in water so that it is fully expanded before feeding it to your pet. 3. After strenuous exercise, don't allow your dog to eat a big meal or drink a lot of water right away. Also, do not let your dog exercise too soon after eating. It is best to wait 1-2 hours. 4. Avoid ingestion of large amounts of water immediately after eating dry kibble.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/gre ... tired/2323

The Zephyr · Post by **The Zephyr** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:46 pm

She's gone....

Awww....geez

I hadn't read this thread in a day or two and thought she had made it. I feel awful for you to lose a young dog. You have my condolences.

John L.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:42 pm

wow..... it sure sounded like you guys caught it in time to save her. must have been a bad one. my sympathies. did the vet say anything about possible cause of death (besides the bloat and twist)??

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:12 pm

The following measures have been shown to help prevent some cases of bloat, but they will not prevent all cases. This is due to the fact that research has shown other possibilities as contributing to the tendancy to bloat. An example of this would be the question of blood chemical imbalance affecting peristalsis. [Peristalsis is the contracting muscular movement of the stomach during digestion of food.]
Feed your dog several small meals, instead of one large meal per day.
Soak the dry kibble in liquid for thirty minutes prior to feeding. The kibble will not expand in the dog's stomach causing distress.
Don't allow rough housing or strenuous exercise on a full stomach, or right after a meal.
Limit the amount of water the dog is allowed to drink immediately after eating his/her meal.
For the larger dogs, elevating their dinner dish off the floor to a comfortable eating position will keep them from gulping large amounts of air with their food.
Never allow the dog to "snack" on uncooked scraps of dough that contains yeast. This would include bread dough, sourdough bread, pancake batter, cake and cookie batter, and other things like this.

http://www.barkbytes.com/medical/med0007.htm

Research into bloat is ongoing. Until a definite cause is confirmed, our only prevention to date is to rely on the many theories that various studies have obtained to help minimise the risks of an attack. Until recently these were as follows:-

Always soak dry kibble in warm water for at least half an hour prior to feeding. Kibble expands when wet and creates gas that could cause bloat.
* However, more recent statistical studies on bloat performed by the Purdue University in the USA dispute this theory and actually show a link with bloat when soaking kibble that contains citric acid or fat as the first four major ingredients.

http://www.akitalove.com/bloat.html

What can you do to try and avoid Bloat?
(1) DO NOT feed one meal a day; feed at least twice a day (less food in the stomach at one time is easier to digest).
(2) DO NOT feed dry kibble, ALWAYS soak kibble in warm water until it fully expands (take a single kibble, drop it in water and watch the gas escape - see how big it gets - imagine that happening in the stomach). At the Friends for Pets kennel we add a heaping dollop of plain yogurt to each meal to cut gas build-up. .
(3) DO NOT allow your dog to exercise or play vigorously for at least an hour after eating.
(4) TRY to keep an eye on your dog before and after it eats (it's not always possible, but try).

http://www.friendsforpets.org/warning.html

Now, the other side....AND THIS IS FROM PURDUE. Genetic links and owner responsibility to contact the breeder and inform them of the bloat.

Factors That Make Difference - These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect:
Restricting exercise before or after eating
Restricting water intake before and/or after meals
Feeding two or more meals per day
Moistening dry kibble before feeding

Factors That DO Make A Difference

These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs

1)Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat
2)Speed of eating -Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat
3)Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older.
4)Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%.

Conclusions

The Purdue research team concluded these are the things you can do to prevent bloat:

The strongest recommendation to prevent GVD (bloat) should be to not breed a dog that has a first degree relative that has had bloat. This places a special responsibility on an owner to inform the breeder should their dog bloat.

1)Do not raise the feeding dish
2)SLOW the dog's speed of eating.

http://www.moonstruckmeadows.com/Bloat% ... 0Study.htm

There it is...more mystery. Genetics to Citric Acid. You find restrict water then you read that has no effect, and same thing with exercise. One big run around. You can't worry about it I guess because the more you research and try to find answers, you're led to believe it's one big crap shoot.

rockllews · Post by **rockllews** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:03 am

I'm so sorry to hear Roxy didn't make it. We lost a pup recently too and can sympathize with the grief you are feeling. Remembering the good moments helps, but it is still unfortunate. Our condolences to your family.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:40 pm

Very sorry about your dog, thank you for bringing this to everyones attention to possibly help someone to not experience this. My one dog eats VERY fast and watched with fear as she stood motionless with bloat, being prepared to go to the vet., I started using the brakefast bowl for her feedings and have not had any problem with bloat since.

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:02 pm

Again...thanks for the thoughts.

I am searching on info in regards to bloat being hereditary. Anyone that has experience with a dog who gets bloated or has died because of this.....do you know if there was history in the lines with this problem?

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:28 pm

gdog wrote:Again...thanks for the thoughts.

I am searching on info in regards to bloat being hereditary. Anyone that has experience with a dog who gets bloated or has died because of this.....do you know if there was history in the lines with this problem?

I am so sorry to hear of your dog's death.

I believe that the Perdue study showed a genetic link to bloat and gastric torsion in dogs.

There are Weimaraner lines where bloat is quite prevalant. I know of dogs who have bloated, their sire bloated, their grand-sire bloated and so on.

Please alert the breeder of your dog as to the bloat and gastric torsion. The littermates need to be carefully watched as do the parents. If a close relative of a dog has bloated that dog has a much greater chance of bloating.

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:57 pm

I've since talked with multiple vets and breeders regarding the genetic factor in problems with bloating. I spoke with the breeder of my dog and the breeders of his dogs to see if there has been any direct history of this in the line and there has not.

Studies have shown that specific breeds are more prone to the occurrence of gastric torsion, but there's not much to be had in regards to specific genetic breeding/pairing passing along the problem. I have talked to various vets and breeders online and via phone the past week to seek out expert advice. Not one could confirm that gastric bloat/torsion is a confirmed trait that is passed along such as hip dysplasia . One likened it to a car crash, in that being able to predict that this specific event will happen or occurrence % is just not possible or know.

So far the Purdue study is the main source for information on the genetic aspect of passing the trait on within the specific line.

CherrystoneWeims · Post by **CherrystoneWeims** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:15 am

I would still be very cautious if I owned a littermate. When I mentioned lines I was talking of MULTIPLE lines where close relatives have bloated. In one a mother and three sons all bloated.

I was also told by mulitple vets and multiple breeders that Whippets don't bloat. My whippet bloated....... Thank goodness I know the signs of bloat so I could start home treatment and rush him to the vet to be tubed. It saved his life.

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:13 am

I think Genetics has alot to do with it. I have never had a dog bloat, as far as adding water to the food first it makes sense as it is not just the volume of food
but the gas that is formed/expelled in the process of expansion. Presoaking the food takes that variable out as the gas is expelled first, of coarse this is not science just a oppinion or wild assed guess

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:28 am

That's the concern with the problem...lots of opinions but not much solid research. As been already posted there are wide variety of opinions that contradict each other in regards to causes. Even the Purdue study is questioned by some....

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:55 pm

claybuster_aa wrote:
There it is...more mystery. Genetics to Citric Acid. You find restrict water then you read that has no effect, and same thing with exercise. One big run around. You can't worry about it I guess because the more you research and try to find answers, you're led to believe it's one big crap shoot.

Absolutely right. As with many things when it comes to dogs, it is "one big crap shoot".

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:01 am

This is rough. Any deep chested dog or a parent that had bloat the off spring is at risk.

I had my surgery 3 weeks ago, and I got extremely lucky so far. Gage has made it through and seems to be doing well.

If you know of a parent that had this, or a littermate they reccomend going through a preventative surgery. I dont know the costs but they will tack the stomach down before this has a chance to happen. Because it is a crap shoot when this happens and you only have a 50 - 50 chance of the dog making it through. As soon as that stomach flips/tists it cuts off blood flow to their intestines and they will start to die off.

And again I am sorry for your families loss.

Joe

gdog · Post by **gdog** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:18 am

Glad to hear you were on the right side of the 50/50!

We have been unable to find any dogs in the few generations back that have had any issues with bloat.

nickmaimone · Post by **nickmaimone** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:36 am

sorry to hear about that. what a shame to lose a friend...