ACL Injury, Again!

[markerdown]

Well, the other shoe may have dropped. My 7 yr old just got over a blown ACL in the spring of '08. She recovered and hunted this past season. Took her out in the open desert for some exercise and later that day started limping on her other rear leg. I got that sick feeling again.

Took her to the local Banfield vet and they put her on rimaydl and xrays were inconclusive. Kept her off it and quiet; she did quite well and the limp was gone, until she snuck out of the house and did a couple of hot laps around the backyard at warp speed. I cringed when I saw her do a high speed turn. Limp is back and it's time to see the specialist. Man, I've been down this road before! I suspect it's torn and not quite blown out, yet. Hopefully if needed, I can get TTA done instead of TPLO.

This would be the 4th ACL repair (2GSPs) and proof you don't want to spay/neuter your birddog until they are at least 2 years old. The price of 4 TPLO surgeries in the past 8 years, 10k, the cost of a GSP running normal, priceless........................................markerdown

[Benny]

proof you don't want to spay/neuter your birddog until they are at least 2 years old.

That's a real bummer. I didn't know there were correlations like that. Our dog was spayed awfully early I suspect, as she doesn't have exposed nipples. I hope that we won't have to face that road anytime soon.

[snips]

You cannot diagnose ACL with xrays. My vets have sedated them and then can feel it. I really think it also has some genetic ties with blown ACL's. Nothing to support it but some of my own background checking.

[markerdown]

Yeah, soft tissue don't xray well. But if the ACL is blown you can see it and definetly you can feel it.
In my case, there is no doubt in my mind there is a direct correlation between early spay/neuter, underdeveloped joints/ligaments and bone developement. 3 definite ACL blown and a fourth possible is proof enough for me. My first GSP was an intact male, lived 16 years with no issues. He hunted till he was 12. And in a bad mood for the next 4 because he couldn't go.

Two GSP out of two totally differnt breeders/ lineage, both spay/neutered at 6 months. None of the other littermates have any issues and one of my dogs is the pup I got from CG...........................markerdown

[Kiki's Mom]

Yes...you can see a tear in the AClLwith X ray if it is big enough. BUT to be completely dx'd correctly it takes x ray, palapation AND an MRI. My guess though is that Markerdown, in his experience has been down this road before and knows that the structure ( angle and length of the bones/joint) + the fact that he says that all were spayed early knows what he is talking about.

YES..there IS a correlation between early altering and bone/joint problems later on because it is the hormones that signal the growth plates to close at the right time ( which in most dogs ins between 9-11 months of age - sometimes this is sooner and sometimes it is later, depending on the breed). Remove the hormone production and the growth plates close at a much slower pace. This allows the long bones to continue to grow and the muscles and tendons then need to catch up. The angles of the leg changes to compensate for the extra growth and VOILA! You now have the recipe for potential increased injuries to joints that under normal growing conditions would withstand rigorous athletic activity just fine.

Another reason for increased potential for ACL injury is a dog that is poorly structured to begin with. Stifles that are too straight and lack of rear angulation to take up the "shock" of activities are prone to injury as well and THIS is most definately a genetically triggered problem. Goldens, Labs, Akita's, GSPs and some of the terrier breeds like the JRT have suffered from lack of angulation in their structure in certain lines over the years......

[Sharon]

As has been said , there is much more to it then the age of neutering. Many of us who regularly have our girls neutered before their first heat cycle have had no such joint problems ever.

[markerdown]

I must be having a run of bad luck with GSPs since '99. Thats why I don't gamble.

The stifle angulation on the pups I picked were ok, researched the best I could 3 gens back to see if there were any health problems in the lineage. I take better care of my dogs than some people do their kids!

There are a lot of factors that can contribule to bad knees, but mine all come back to one common factor. I've had some really heated conversations with my vet. He argues his medical point of view and I argue my practical experience.

Statistics always point to a percentage of either for or against early spay/neuter being a factor in ACL injuries. But remember, a percentage has a two components: a high and a low probabality. In my case, I may be in that odd low percent. But I have a lot of company

So, the pooch will see the vet this week. She may get TPLO or she may not. Either way, my wallet will have surgery to remove a bunch of hard earned Ben Franklins ........markerdown

[shets114]

Not that it may have much to do with it but what protein / fat level of food do you feed? It has been proven that feeding a high protein diet can reduce bone and ligament issues by nearly 30%.

[markerdown]

My dogs are on ProPLan chicken/rice and step up to performance blend during hunting season. Plus vitamins and supplements.........................markerdown

[jbogacki76]

Same thing for me. I fed high pro food and supplements too. Blown first ACL at 8 year and the second at 9 years old. I had him fixed at 6months as well.

Along with the 2 crucial tears he also flipped and twisted his stomach.

[Elroy's Bandit]

Well...here's a question then. Why would anyone spay/neuter that young if it's proven that it affects a percentage of dogs? I was unaware of this issue until reading this thread, but it is something that should be considered. Is it a "mandatory" thing that it's done prior to the first estrus cylce in females??
There are obviuos advantages , but this would fall in the "big disadvantage" column .
Bill L.

[jbogacki76]

The biggest issue is that they cant link it to anything. 40% say its from getting your animal fixed before they fully develop. 40% say it's genetics, and 10% say its just wear and tear (That I understand because you see how dog's hit the throttle in the fields and cut on a dime). I have been to 5 specialists and no one could give me an answer.

Even worst than that is they give you a 75% chance that he will blow the other leg. So, its a bad situation to be in. The good thing is that some dog's can make it through and live with a partial tear perfectly fine.

It just sucks if you get delt the card.

[markerdown]

Yeah, I'm just bummed out she may have to go thru another knee operation/rehab again. She's a big runner and just loves to hunt. I'll find out if she'll need surgery this morning................markerdown

[Russmill84]

Well? How's your girl? Hope everything turned out ok. Keep us informed.

[markerdown]

Well just as I suspected , the ACL was torn. Doc knew that I been thru this enough to know what I was talking about. So off she went for TPLO surgery.

I picked her up this afternoon, she's no worse for wear and now comfortably resting in an X-pen (well, as good as she can get wearing the ol' lampshade collar and half a shaved butt). She ate, drank water, took her meds, relieved herself in the backyard and it was good nite.

She was pretty stressed but calmed down since home plus mrs marker is taking care of "her baby". Funny how it was "my "bleep" dog" last week.

Anywho, stitches come out on the 16th and confinement is up on April 6. Then we start conditioning rehab.We'll do a lot more swimmin' this summer. She'll be ready for bird season this fall. She's one tough girl, She may get that from her snips side ..............................................markerdown

[snips]

I had 2 dogs yrs ago that would jump up and down in their kennel like springboards. They both ended up with torn cruciates. Neither one was neutered. I really thought they just stressed those joints, they did not tear them jumping, but while running. That stuff went back to Wildburg, and I heard that Essers Chick had a cruciate tear. Who the heck knows, but I have not had one in yrs since I crossed it up with other stuff (and no kennel jumpers)...I feel your pain, good luck.

[markerdown]

She's a real trooper, not a peep out of her. Our male whined like a baby for a few days when his were done. She's one tough cookie. I once pull a 2" thorn out of her pad that brought a tear to my eye, she just wanted it out and get back to findin birds. She runs big....and she will again.......markerdown

[Jquest]

I have had customers dogs that had a ACL limp...With lots of rest,good food,swimming and supplements We have been
able to avoid the operation...I'm a waterdog guy...Mostly labs. I've only had one of my labs with an ACL problem,,,He missed a
jump on to a boat. I've been feeding Blue Buffalo to my dogs and customers dogs for the past (4) Four Plus years...(1/2 can wet too
with every feeding)
And my dogs get out every day...even in bad weather...I stay in the truck,,,but they get out. LoLx2.(My farm path is about 2 miles long)
My point, how about some real life experience on ACL operations vs time,swimming,food and supplements...
**My vet who is a freind of 30 years says zero movement and supplements for 3 weeks before making the call for surgery..He subs
these operations out to an expert in Cary NC.

Thanks Jb

[MATT4126]

Alot of opinions on this subject, but no real hard science why some dogs are more prone to it than others. I have done each knee in my female who was spayed before 12 mos old (I simply didn't know better). We did TTA in one knee then tightrope in the other, and no good way to cut it....invasive surgery and long calculated rehab. we use steadfast supplement with her and she does pretty well. the arthritis comes and goes with the weather but she still runs and hunts and sleeps on the couch so it can't be all bad.