Female bred on day 17...too late?

[GGs]

Have any of you all ever bred a female on day 17 of her heat and had a successful pregnancy? My female Golden has been flagging and flirting with my male since day 6, but my male wasn't interersted until day 13....after day 14, I gave up trying to get them to breed b/c my female didn't want anything to do with him by then. Then today, day 17, out of the blue, they tied.....should I expect puppies or is it too late?

[ezzy333]

Get the puppy pen ready.

Ezzy

[vzkennels]

Agreed be ready! Good Luck!

[BigShooter]

By instinct, males know when the timing is right. This is especially true when the male has had access to the female the whole time.

[mountaindogs]

One of my GSP's cycles very long - day 22-23 is usually her breeding day. Or was.

[kninebirddog]

How long are her normal heat cycles

there could be a good chance if she has one of those long drawn out ones

besure to mark the day in the calendar and add 63 days that will give you an approx target whelp date

at about day 30 have her jump up and put her paws on your stomach so she is standing up ward then look at her belly if it looks like she ate a big meal and looks like she swallowed a baseball right under the rib cage area then it is pretty good sign also watch her teats and if they are protruding a bit different then normal
so barring any false pregnancy which will have same signs it gives some idea if it was a success or not

Good Luck

[3Britts]

Not too late. My female and male tied on days 17 & 18.
How many pups did we get: 10.
The dogs know when its time to do the deed.

[ezzy333]

It isn't instinct but rather the smell the female gives off when it is time. As smart as we all think we are there are still a few things that the dogs know better than we do. If the litter is mostly male it might indicate the breeding was on the late side and if mostly female indicates it might have been on the early side. Will be interesting to see.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

It isn't instinct but rather the smell the female gives off when it is time. As smart as we all think we are there are still a few things that the dogs know better than we do. If the litter is mostly male it might indicate the breeding was on the late side and if mostly female indicates it might have been on the early side. Will be interesting to see.

Ezzy

Ezzy,

Am I missing something? I always thought the smell triggered the instinct to tie. My thinking is more in terms of breeding as an instinctual activity rather than a learned activity in dogs.

Talking about the sex of offspring, I don't know everything about dogs but in humans the male Y chromosome sperm are smaller and faster than the larger female X chromosome sperm. Hence the male sperm live for a shorter period. So if the semen deposit is made earlier before ovulation the female sperm have a greater likelihood of survival and hence the greater likelihood of a female baby. If the semen is deposited near or at ovulation the faster y sperm tend to have a better chance of fertilizing the egg.

[R-Heaton]

If the litter is mostly male it might indicate the breeding was on the late side and if mostly female indicates it might have been on the early side. Will be interesting to see

Ezzy,,,, the male sperm dictates the sex correct? Where have you heard this and whats the logic?

Just on a weird side note,,,, there is a place here in Boise for humans that will separate male sperm from female sperm for humans for under a grand. Its a serrogate mother agency.

[BigShooter]

Just on a weird side note,,,, there is a place here in Boise for humans that will separate male sperm from female sperm for humans for under a grand. Its a serrogate mother agency.

I have four wonderful sons and hunting companions but if that had been available for under a grand when we were having kids ..............

[ezzy333]

If the litter is mostly male it might indicate the breeding was on the late side and if mostly female indicates it might have been on the early side. Will be interesting to see

Ezzy,,,, the male sperm dictates the sex correct? Where have you heard this and whats the logic?

Just on a weird side note,,,, there is a place here in Boise for humans that will separate male sperm from female sperm for humans for under a grand. Its a serrogate mother agency.

The sperm does determine the sex of the offspring and the reasoning behind the number of each is explained by Shooter.

Talking about the sex of offspring, I don't know everything about dogs but in humans the male Y chromosome sperm are smaller and faster than the larger female X chromosome sperm. Hence the male sperm live for a shorter period. So if the semen deposit is made earlier before ovulation the female sperm have a greater likelihood of survival and hence the greater likelihood of a female baby. If the semen is deposited near or at ovulation the faster y sperm tend to have a better chance of fertilizing the egg.

Ezzy

[R-Heaton]

Huh,,,, learn something new everyday. Yea that makes common sense type sense.

Using that logic do you think it would be worth the risk to do progestrone tests then breed a little early or a little late depending on what sex's you wanted more of or atleast better your odds?

[BigShooter]

Huh,,,, learn something new everyday. Yea that makes common sense type sense.

Using that logic do you think it would be worth the risk to do progestrone tests then breed a little early or a little late depending on what sex's you wanted more of or atleast better your odds?

Unlike humans that produce one egg at one time dogs produce many eggs over a period of time, albeit relatively short. Hence the reason some prefer to have three ties if possible, done every other day to maximize the number of eggs fertilized. That said I think it'd be just a little trickier to attempt with dogs but one could try. A far better method would be to have the stud's female sperm separated from the male sperm like is done with human sperm and use AI to deposit the sperm you want to use.

Now there is always the question of whether natural cover, that requires the sperm to swim to the egg creates a process of natural selection so only the best survive. However with AI, semen can be deposited in the vagina and sperm still are required to swim, it can be deposited intra-vaginally into the uterus, or deposited surgically. Reproductive vets I have spoken with will tell you they have not seen a higher incidence of abnormal or low quality pups with AI. That may be in part because the mechanism by which the sperm is allowed into the egg is not fully understood. So even if the sperm doesn't have to swim as far it still has to successfully penetrate the egg.

If you want to try to do progesterone tests and improve your odds for a certain sex I'd recommend you locate a reproductive vet and seek their opinion. Some will talk to you on the phone or via e-mail at no charge.

[R-Heaton]

Unlike humans that produce one egg at one time dogs produce many eggs over a period of time, albeit relatively short. Hence the reason some prefer to have three ties if possible, done every other day to maximize the number of eggs fertilized.

Now this I either didn't know, don't agree with or have been misinformed. But I thought the reason for wanting 3 ties was the average breeder doesn't know when the exact time of ovulation is so your just covering a bigger window of time by breeding multiple times. I thought the eggs are only released at time of ovulation, thats why with surgical AI they only do it once because they know the exact ovulation time because of progestrone tests, cytology and temp tests.

I have heard and its pretty well accepted that ovulation is around the 10th day so breed on the 8th and then every other or something of that nature. But with the progestrone testing its now fairly common knowledge that all dogs are different some ovulate real late in their cycle such as on the 17 or later. Last year I went through the process and my female wasn't ready until the 19 day,,,,, cost me a fortune in progestrone tests.

[ezzy333]

Now this I either didn't know, don't agree with or have been misinformed. But I thought the reason for wanting 3 ties was the average breeder doesn't know when the exact time of ovulation is so your just covering a bigger window of time by breeding multiple times. I thought the eggs are only released at time of ovulation, thats why with surgical AI they only do it once because they know the exact ovulation time because of progestrone tests, cytology and temp tests.

I have heard and its pretty well accepted that ovulation is around the 10th day so breed on the 8th and then every other or something of that nature. But with the progestrone testing its now fairly common knowledge that all dogs are different some ovulate real late in their cycle such as on the 17 or later. Last year I went through the process and my female wasn't ready until the 19 day,,,,, cost me a fortune in progestrone tests.R-Heaton
Rank: Master Hunter

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This is my understanding also. It just gives you a better chance possibly for covering the ovulation or possibly an egg or two that hadn't been fertilized yet. I think it was accepted that several breedings covered more eggs but in all probability with what we know today one well timed mating is as good as it gets. The key is timing.

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Just remember that separating the sperm does not always go as planned.
I have a Doctor friend that lives in Minnesota who, after having 5 girls, had his sperm separated so that he
could finally have a boy. Well it worked, he did have a boy, and two girls. Triplets.
If the dogs have tied, it was time. Get the whelping box ready.

[BigShooter]

Unlike humans that produce one egg at one time dogs produce many eggs over a period of time, albeit relatively short. Hence the reason some prefer to have three ties if possible, done every other day to maximize the number of eggs fertilized.

Now this I either didn't know, don't agree with or have been misinformed. But I thought the reason for wanting 3 ties was the average breeder doesn't know when the exact time of ovulation is so your just covering a bigger window of time by breeding multiple times. I thought the eggs are only released at time of ovulation, thats why with surgical AI they only do it once because they know the exact ovulation time because of progestrone tests, cytology and temp tests.

I have heard and its pretty well accepted that ovulation is around the 10th day so breed on the 8th and then every other or something of that nature. But with the progestrone testing its now fairly common knowledge that all dogs are different some ovulate real late in their cycle such as on the 17 or later. Last year I went through the process and my female wasn't ready until the 19 day,,,,, cost me a fortune in progestrone tests.

From what I've read canines have multiple ovulating eggs that may not be released at the same time. Yes, breeders use multiple ties because they don't know the exact time of ovulation. However, even if you use progesterone testing to peg the LH surge and use natural cover the vet will use the test results to tell you when to do the first tie and often will recommend an every other day schedule for three ties. With surgical AI an attempt is made to precisely peg ovulation but no doubt you also know that they often use an extender with the semen to lengthen the life of the sperm to both increase the likelihood of success and the likelihood of normal litter size.

There also is at least one supplement available that has demonstrated an ability to increase a stud's sperm count.

[kninebirddog]

What determines if the pups are males or females has to do with the sperm and the X and Y has nothing to do with when they are bred if that was the case people would be controlling what they needed to produce and that is in mother natures hands and which sperm fertilizes the egg first

[BigShooter]

What determines if the pups are males or females has to do with the sperm and the X and Y has nothing to do with when they are bred

As I indicated this statement is not true for humans. X chromosome sperm are larger, slower, live longer and timing copulation to increase the odds of getting the sex you want has been well established.

if that was the case people would be controlling what they needed to produce and that is in mother natures hands and which sperm fertilizes the egg first

I do not know how much research has been done with canines at this point. However, if the process is similar enough to humans it's only a matter of time before techniques will be developed to increase the odds of getting more get of the sex you want. As Ezzy stated he has already observed this phenomena.

[kninebirddog]

well I can say I have not observed it to be true at all. Most of my litters I breed on the early side and out side of this last litter I always seem to have more males then females.

this last litter is the first where i have had more females then males and have done breedings same days from when the female changes to the lighters color of discharge like usual



http://pregnancy.about.com/od/gendersel ... method.htm

What Science Says About Shettles

In talking to families, it is never hard to find women who claim that the Shettles Method worked for them. This anecdotal evidence is, however, not proof of the success of the Shettles Method. There is plenty of scientific study, not conducted by Shettles, that says that the Shettles Method does not work and there is even some scientific evidence that says not only does it not work, but that it can actually prevent you from getting pregnant.

In 1995, the New England Journal of Medicine researchers proclaimed that, "the timing of sexual intercourse in relation to ovulation has no bearing on the sex of the baby.” There are also studies found in The International Journal of Fertility and the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology.

Dr. Shettles did numerous studies himself and not surprinsingly they were always positive. Though the majority of scientists have not been able to replicate his supposed success in sex selection. One complaint that many families have about the method is that the guidelines are strict and difficult to follow, particularly the abstinence of sexual intercourse and orgasm at various points.

In the end you have to remember that there are only a few ways to nearly guarantee the sex of your baby and they involve a lot of scientific tinkering with your body and the whole conception process. There is not any easy method of sex selection that can be done at home. Most couples I have interviewed who choose to do at home methods say they went into this with the mindset that they were tipping the scales in their favor in one direction or the other. Some were very disappointed, while others were thrilled.

To learn more about the Shettles Method, please see Dr. Shettles book How to Choose the Sex of Your Baby which gives all of the details on his ideas.

Sources:

France, J. T., F. M. Graham, et al. (1992). "Characteristics of natural conceptual cycles occurring in a prospective study of sex preselection: fertility awareness symptoms, hormone levels, sperm survival, and pregnancy outcome." Int J Fertil 37(4): 244-55.

France, J. T., F. M. Graham, et al. (1984). "A prospective study of the preselection of the sex of offspring by timing intercourse relative to ovulation. "Fertil Steril 41(6): 894-900.

Gray, R. H. (1991). "Natural family planning and sex selection: fact or fiction?" Am J Obstet Gynecol 165(6 Pt 2): 1982-4.

Shettles, LB. (1978). “Sex preselection.” Obstet Gynecol. 1978 Apr;51(4):513-4.

Wilcox, A. J., C. R. Weinberg, et al. (1995). "Timing of sexual intercourse in relation to ovulation. Effects on the probability of conception, survival of the pregnancy, and sex of the baby." N Engl J Med 333(23): 1517-21.

I am trying to find any real studies on the boy girl theory...but out side of being listed under the wives tales I am failing to find any real studies to back up it up ....outside of Dr Shettles own tests

http://pregnancy.about.com/od/boyorgirl ... eagirl.htm is another link

maybe you can bring up some information..if there is a real way to do it then cool as I would like to have litters with more females as my list for females is always about 3 to 1 so it would seriously be a benefit for me

[R-Heaton]

Dr. Shettles did numerous studies himself

Dr. Shettles sounds like a hard worker,,,, a dedicated to his work type guy.

[ezzy333]

Probably tried both but it should be reported on a different board and not GDF :roll:

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

knine,

In the first place, your quote is about the Shettles method only. However, my information is old and perhaps you are correct and all of the old studies have been totally debunked. I will have to do some current research.

Secondly, I already raised the specter that human reproduction differs from canine. My guess is even if timing does work as a method to increase the odds for humans, there is no assurance the technique could be used in canine reproduction. Timing would be exponentially more difficult to attempt with dogs because they have multiple eggs that may not be released at the same time and because canine sperm normally lives 5-6 days. However, Colorado State has found live sperm up to eleven days (if I recall correctly). You'd probably have to use AI to get timing that early as the bitch likely wouldn't stand before the LH surge. Most likely there would be fewer successful breedings and smaller litters using timing alone. What we were talking about was potential methods of increasing the odds of getting more puppies with the sex one wants, not just by timing but also by X/Y separation techniques. I said the latter held more promise.

Lastly, I never said there were any methods that produce pregnancies everytime with the resulting sex of the offspring being exactly what was wanted 100% of the time.

Back to the original post, it only takes one tie and the observed day of ovulation varies between bitches. More than likely puppies will be on their way.

[GGs]

Oh, geez. Part of me really wanted everyone to say that this wasn't going to happen...the other part of me is very excited for puppies! She's had one litter before, but didn't want to have anything to do with the male but on day 12, they tied that one time and that was it. She hated him before and after day 12. 61 days later, after 6 hours of hard labor, she had 11 puppies....8 females and only 3 males.

Interestingly, another female was bred a week after the first. She first bred on day 8, and up to day 15. She also had 11, but 4 females and 7 males...I had heard, in humans, that the closer to ovulation you are, the better chance for boys, bred earlier than ovulation, more girls....

I have read so much information on this post that I'm flabergasted(sp?)....I must come back when I have more time and reread these theories on male vs. female and reasoning behind this.

I was so frustrated when they wouldn't breed (my male anyway) and things weren't getting anywhere, that on day 14 I notified the 8 people I had on a waiting list and told them it wasn't going to happen...I refunded a lot of deposits. I think I may have screwed up big time....would you re-notify those or just wait to see if it "takes"?

[BigShooter]

Personally I'd call people and tell them exactly what happened and that it was later than one would normally expect however, some knowledgeable gundog people told you it's happened that way before & more likely than not you will have puppies. About the earliest you can verify pregnancy with some accuracy is around 30-35 days if you have ultrasound done or if a very experienced vet palpates the little walnuts (puppies).

[kninebirddog]

Ditto ..Yes I would contact the people and let them know

and Shooter...I really do wish there was a way, it would be nice to up the odds of one sex over another

[MikeB]

GG's

You should count 62 days from that 17th day when tied for a due date. Keep us posted.

[GGs]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I contacted my future puppy buyers and 4 of them have changed their minds and decided to hope for puppies with me! So we're playing wait and see...her due date will be June 18th. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

[kninebirddog]

Will do

Good Luck

[ezzy333]

Don't think you will need to cross your fingers as long as both dogs were healthy unless we need to hpoe for enough pups to cover the desposits. I can help with that!

Ezzy

[3Britts]

Don't think you will need to cross your fingers as long as both dogs were healthy unless we need to hpoe for enough pups to cover the desposits. I can help with that!

Ezzy

Don't tell us that you just had pups too. Did it hurt? How are you going to feed them?

[GGs]

So, we are at 5 weeks into this "pregnancy". I'm still not certain she is pregnant. Although she is lazy and doesn't want to play ball like she usually does, these are the only real "signs" she's giving me. I can't remember how far along she was last year when it was obvious that she was pregnant...5 or 6 weeks? She does look bigger, but perhaps she's just getting fat because of the puppy food she's on. If this pregnancy thing wasn't in debate, I'd put her on a diet. Her nipples don't seem much different. The two farthest back are maybe a little bigger than normal. At what age should it be obvious? I KNOW that at 7.5 weeks last year it was obvious to the average joe that she was pregnant. At what age do you know with your dogs? I've got people on my waiting list hounding me with "Is she pregnant? Is she pregnant?" I hate that I can't give them an answer.

Thoughts?

[rockllews]

Being able to discern pregnancy by observation alone usually depends on the bitch. Ultrasounding is a simple way to preg check, especially if you have people wanting to know if the breeding they're waiting on is going to give them some pups. I'm surprised you haven't yet, since you've been wondering whether or not this breeding was successful from the get-go. Even if cost is a concern, it usually runs under fifty bucks. I'd recommend ultrasound over x-ray. Good luck. Let us know what happens.

[AnaMclean]

Wondering what the results of this where? Did you get puppies or not? I just had an unintentional tie on day 18, both registered Champion dogs.... but still not intended. Really hoping my bitch doesnt take.