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How much protein is too much

How much protein is too much

Postby Ruffshooter » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:59 pm

I am looking into feeding a different dog food. I currently use high performance Eagle pack. It is 30% protein, 15% fat(iforget). Has a lot of good stuff flax seed, omega 3 and 6 chondrotin and glucosemen. I feed it year round. Dogs do well, stools tight and limited. Coats good. Etc. It is $42 for 40 pound bag.

Diamond has an extreme athlete formula which has alot of the same stuff but is 32% protein and 20% fat.

Why do I use the high protien stuff in off season? Because they do well and in the wild canids eat primarily all protien.

Any way this may be a flawed assesment and description of why but there it is.

I want to save money the diamond does that and still gives a great product for $8 less.

How much protien is too much? Can this cause kidney issues or some other issues. Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:45 pm

That is a good question and I used to be concerned about really high protein levels. There are studies around that indicate that the quality of protein is the critical factor and not the level. There are a few foods that are are 40% and higher but the sources of protein are top grade animal proteins and not grain-based proteins. If my dog would eat kibble I would use them and not worry. Orijen has a study on its website.

That said some of the higher protein foods are high in ash and have calcium levels that are close to or above accepted levels. I know dozens of dogs that eat Orijen, Evo, Core and Annamaet Ultra, which are high and mega protein foods, that look great and are in perfect health. My dog eats at 33% protein food but about 95% of the protein is chicken & fish meal. No corn or wheat to puff up the protein.

There does not seem to be any evidence that high QUALITY high protein foods put stress on the kidneys of healthy dogs, not even older dogs. Not that I have seen anyway, but the higher you go the more ash and calcium are in the foods.

So I guess you have to decide whether the grade of animal protein in Diamond is as good as Eagle. There are several grades of meal, by-product meal and fish meal. The best by-product meals are better than the worst meals. I actually prefer the top grade by-product meals and I feed fresh by-products on a regular basis. My old Jack Russell took apart plenty of ground hogs in her day and never once ate the muscle meat, just the organs.

That Diamond formula has no corn or wheat or corn gluten so it appears the high protein is from chicken and chicken meal, it looks like a superior formula than PP for a whole lot less money.

Ezzy knows the Diamond formulas well. You might wanna ask him.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:29 pm

That Diamond formula has no corn or wheat or corn gluten so it appears the high protein is from chicken and chicken meal, it looks like a superior formula than PP for a whole lot less money.

Ezzy knows the Diamond formulas well. You might wanna ask him.



Lets set the record straight. I have no idea what the Diamond formulas are and never have. Those are a well kept secret just as every other companies formuli are.

The other point made in the quote above about no grain to push the protein levels up is just so wrong I don't know where to begin because it points out how little some people understand about feeds and feeding. Grains are primarily a source of carbs with some like corn having a fair level of fat and some protein also. But corn which is higher than many other grains can run from 8 to 10% protein. Wheat will run close to that protein but is lower in fat and rice is lower in both. So you can see whole grain can not be a major source of protein in any feed but is just the opposite as it pulls the percentage down.

Another point is there is little difference in the quality of by-products. All must meet the legal levels of the product and they are checked by the government to make sure they do. If they are labeled chicken by-product meal they must confom to the standard for that product. For instance they can't vary the protein levels or any other guaranteed levels without being out of compliance and are subject to having their product recalled or pay some major fines.

Something everyone should think about is the dog does not utilize what we call protein but rather uses the essential amino acids. What this means is the animal doesn't know or care where those amino acids come from but just requires that there needs are met. We use some animal sources and some vegetable sources since that is the easiest way to provide the necessary levels of all of those acids. If we can balance those with multiple sources we might get by with a 16% total ration but if we use just animal sources or just vegetable sources we may need to feed a 30 or 35 % ration to get the minimum amount of the amino acid that the source is low on. SO as you can see the total protein level is not important but the level of each essential amino acid is what is important to the dog. And as stated it is much better, easier, and cheaper to use multiple sources and not just animal or just vegetable sources to meet those requirements.

Dogfood manufactures have been around for quite a few years now and they are here because they make a better product that is cheaper, better quality, easier to use, and much more uniform in quality that any of us can do ourselves. And I believe they will continue to do that even though some people with just a dog or two feel they can do better at home. And there is nothing wrong with that if they have the time and money to spend.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rich Heaton » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:54 pm

So Ezzy,,,,, what do you feed? In the summer and in the winter?
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mountaindogs » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:50 am

I have fed the diamond extreme and it's okay. I think you'll prefer the eagle pack that you are used to but you may like the diamond enough to make an $8 bag difference. I would not feed the super high energy foods to puppies or seniors, but my adults, 2-8 or so, often get it all year.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby kerplunk105 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:06 am

My 8mo GSP gets a food that is Protein: 32% Fat: 18% Calories: 375 kcal/cup. Every other food she wouldnt keep weight on.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:24 am

Ezzy,

I didn't mean to imply you had the formula in your desk drawer, rather your were familiar with the company's products.

As for corn products, I take exception to your opinion on how corn or corn derivatives are used in dog food, corn gluten meal is there to bump of protein cheaply, period. Trust me I have the memos.

As for grades of meals,

http://www.americanproteins.com/products.htm
http://www.omegaproteininc.com/products-fishmeal.html

Thers are several grades of these products, from naturally preserved to chemically preserved, from high digestibility to lower digestibility, from domestic to imported, from higher nitrogen levels to lower nitrogen levels and from meals including heads and feet to meals with higher concentrations of organ meats.

That was my point with respect to the quality of protein in the context of whether high protein diets are safe.

I am not critical of people feeding commercial diets, I am just critical of the highly unethical manufacturers.


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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:26 am

Rich Heaton wrote:So Ezzy,,,,, what do you feed? In the summer and in the winter?


All of the dogs including puppies are on Diamond Premium. I fed several other feeds when the Diamond dealership closed a few years back but then I found a dealer about 20 miles away and started back on it. Tractor Supply just built a new store a mile from us so now we have access to many different feeds close by including the Diamond. I never change feeds in different seasons but do vary the amount as required to keep the dogs in good shape.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:36 am

I am not critical of people feeding commercial diets, I am just critical of the highly unethical manufacturers.



I may have missed it but tell us which manufacturers are unethical because they manufacture a good feed that doesn't agree with your opinion of what is a good ingredient?

As for corn products, I take exception to your opinion on how corn or corn derivatives are used in dog food, corn gluten meal is there to bump of protein cheaply, period. Trust me I have the memos.


I don't need to trust you as I know how corn products are made, used, and why they are included in the feed. And there is nothing unethical in any aspect of it by any company in the business.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:51 am

http://www.proplan.com/products/Performance_DryDog.html

The descriptions of Pro Plan Performance and Select may be legal but are totally unethical.

1) "Real Chicken" is not the #1 protein ingredient, unless you count the water in it....Corn Gluten is, but that would not make for sexy advertising.

2) "Wholesome Grains" that is total B/S. I wouldn't say "brewers rice" is a "Wholesome Grain", whole oats, whole barley, whole millet are "Wholesome Grains".


Pro Plan Select:

1) "Real Chicken" is not the #1 protein ingredient, unless you count the water in it....Corn Gluten is, but that would not make for sexy advertising.
2) "Formulated without ground corn", technically correct but misleading since Corn Gluten is the #3 ingredient by weight.

There are so many others I cannot even count.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby slistoe » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:10 am

Pretty sexxy to trash dog food manufacturers isn't it. He's in the hip crowd now.

Dog food labels had non of the creative marketing plans you see now before it became the hip thing to do was to trash a well balanced, scientifically formulated product.

What is unethical is the half truths foisted by those who want to profit from our fears.

PS - Feed the Diamond food and don't worry about it. But I would be watching carefully how much you need to feed and calculate closely if you are actually saving money. A "few" years back now I did test feedings with my dogs and found that the most expensive feeds to buy at the time - Eukanuba 30/20 ration and the Eagle ration you are now feeding were actually the cheapest to feed to the dogs.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Shadow » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:12 am

seems you are just looking for a war- no matter what facts you are bound and determined to run down good dog food
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mountaindogs » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:36 am

For the record "wholesome" in not whole grain.
whole·some
Pronunciation: \ˈhōl-səm\
Function: adjective
Date: 13th century
1: promoting health or well-being of mind or spirit
2: promoting health of body
3 a: sound in body, mind, or morals b: having the simple health or vigor of normal domesticity
4 a: based on well-grounded fear : prudent <a wholesome respect for the law> b: safe <it wouldn't be wholesome for you to go down there — Mark Twain>
synonyms see healthful, healthy
— whole·some·ly adverb
— whole·some·ness noun


Even and especially In human food the FDA has to get after advertisers for misleading information promoting health. You all know that "wheat bread" is not the same as "whole wheat bread" is not the same as "100% Whole wheat bread" and there are standards of what can be labeled as what.

I take issue with much marketing, it is misleading, it does not mean that the food is good or bad, but rarely is the food actually what they hope your mind will infer from the wording they choose.

As I stated, the diamond extreme is fine - I like it, but coming off of Eagle Pak, I think you find it less of a food. I'd be willing to bet that you get about the same energy absorbtion from the two, despite the difference in calories, protein & fat.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:40 am

Since we are using definitions, would you or any reasonable person consider this "wholesome":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewers_rice

I agree there is puffed up marketing for all foods and questions to ask, but there is a difference if a truly good formula blows its horn a little too loud. It is tackey and maybe it too is unethical to a certain degree but it is not in the same league as what Purina does.

That should be illegal and ALL kibbles should be required to have "dry matter basis" information and calorie disclosure, period end of story.

Who wouldn't support that?
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:09 pm

Bosco, do you have evidence that chicken is not the number one ingredient in Pro Plan performance "as fed"? Or are you just parroting those so-called dog food analysis sites that assume it's only pre-processing weight, based on the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than actual practice?

I ask because I recall dog writer, Vickie Lamb, looked into it and found chicken still number one as fed.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby MikeB » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:21 pm

Can some one tell me what is the most important.... Protein / Fat percentages or Calories per cup of food. I know of several adult foods 24/14 NOT performance foods that are higher calorie than many performance formulas. My thought has always been higher calorie was better than 30/20 foods. I know higher protein will build muscle but the higher calorie gives energy.

Please enlighten if you know.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Duane M » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:56 pm

Fat for long term endurance, and to an extent heat tolerance, protein for muscles of course and carbs for short term endurance. Bioavalability of the sources is the most important.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Shadow » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Bosco, do you have evidence that chicken is not the number one ingredient in Pro Plan performance "as fed"? Or are you just parroting those so-called dog food analysis sites that assume it's only pre-processing weight, based on the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than actual practice?

I ask because I recall dog writer, Vickie Lamb, looked into it and found chicken still number one as fed.


he's an expert in telling why the number one ingredient in Purina isn't the number 1 ingredient-
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:57 pm

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:00 pm

Shadow wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Bosco, do you have evidence that chicken is not the number one ingredient in Pro Plan performance "as fed"? Or are you just parroting those so-called dog food analysis sites that assume it's only pre-processing weight, based on the worst case allowed by labeling law, rather than actual practice?

I ask because I recall dog writer, Vickie Lamb, looked into it and found chicken still number one as fed.


he's an expert in telling why the number one ingredient in Purina isn't the number 1 ingredient-


Not to mention the evils of broken rice.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:00 pm

I know for a fact. I am in the private equity business and I have looked at two investment opportunities in the dog food industry. One is a relatively new name and the other never got off the drawing board because of the recall a few years ago. Our investors require that each deal be reviewed for ethical standards, so we have to hire an expert to review the products and business plan. It is a real pain in the butt, but our investors don't want to be involved in anything that could embarrass them. Needless to say, we never did the deals.

The bottom line is the pet food industry scores very low on the ethics scale for ingredients, quality and disclosure. I also got the chance to work with a guy that oversaw the production of dozens of brands and he said the difference in quality between brands is staggering and that the industry has so many tricks to cover up bad ingredients with a variety of stool enhancers and flavor enhancers. When consumers are asked about the quality of dog food they often site firm consistent stools as an indication of quality, so the industry has ways to make sure the poop is hard and consistent. Some foods even use Sodium Bentonite which is like cement and cellulose powder to enhance stools. Cellulose powder is a highly processed plant fiber like wood that has no value at all except for water absorbing bulk.

So in answer to your question, the nutritional experts that reviewed the deals were quick to point out the marketing gimmic of naming chicken as the number one ingredient. The reality is that a much cheaper ingredients, like grain glutens, are the number one protein ingredients because they are very concentrated. Moreover, what they call "chicken" is really just the carcass in most cases.

For the price of Pro Plan, there are much better choices like Artemis Power if you need a performance diet and its cheaper.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:18 pm

let me ask you guys, why do you trust what Purina says?
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby slistoe » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:50 pm

Because the food works when you feed it to the dogs.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:27 pm

mcbosco wrote:let me ask you guys, why do you trust what Purina says?
For the price of Pro Plan, there are much better choices like Artemis Power if you need a performance diet and its cheaper.


My Father worked for them for 26 years, they argueably have one of the best animal nutrition facilities in the world, millions of animals all over the world have done well on there products for many years, that's why. My opinion like it or not. 8)

Pro Plan around here is $36.99 for 37.5 lbs. What are you getting Artemis for, and where can I get it in Illinois?

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:16 pm

lvrgsp wrote:
mcbosco wrote:let me ask you guys, why do you trust what Purina says?


My Father worked for them for 26 years, they argueably have one of the best animal nutrition facilities in the world, millions of animals all over the world have done well on there products for many years, that's why. My opinion like it or not. 8)

Chip


Finally a voice of common sense. I never worked for Purina but have worked with them and the University of Illinois plus our own research facilities and know about the millions of dollars that are spent in researching the products thy have made for years. I don't know if Mcbosco even knows that it is Nestles that owns the name and product that was formally made by Purina Mills. Nestles also make much of the choclate candies we all eat. Not sure they qualify as unethical.

Also wonder if he knows Brewers rice is the by-product of the beer industry and you don't need to look it up if you understand what it is and where it comes from. Same with the Corn Gluten which is largely a by-product of the Ethanol industry and is an excellent animal feed as it is the whole grain with the sugar removed and some of the starch. Naturally when you remove the parts of the kernel that we don't need in our dog food the parts we do need are more concentrated and consequently are a higher percent. Corn Gluten has rather quickly become one of the major sources of protein and easily digestible fat with some carbs still there. It has replaced a lot of the soy that was used previously and has improved the quality of the feeds that use it.

Some manufacturing processes that have been used for years to pellet dog food and other animal feeds produced a good firm pellet but as the fat levels have increased the amount of fines that we all hate to find in the bottom of the bag increased dramatically. WE have tried many options to improve the quality of the pellet and one of the best materials we have foud that works well is a small amount of Sodium Bentonite that acts as a pellet binder. The amount used is almost miniscule in dog foods but we did find out that cattle actually gain faster with the addition of 2.5 percent. That is 50 lbs. in a ton of feed. Sodium Bentonite not only works as a binder in the manufacturing but we found in our reserch it also works to reduce the acidity of the stomach when the animals are stressed in any way. Consequently we found that it was a boost to the nutritional needs of the animal as well as a pellet binder. Not sure it would have much of an effet on the stools though it might help if we used higher levels.

This is too long but the rest of you have pretty much stated just what is going on when someone makes the effort to rundown the companies and the feeds we all have used with great success over the years. Judge not on what you hear but rather on the results you have witnessed with your own animals. That is the true test of a product.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:35 am

yes i know Nestle owns Purina and P&G owns Eukanuba and I know that what brewers rice is and i know where corn gluten comes from. i also know why they are used by Purina over better animal meals and better grains..they are cheap and can be bought in massive quantities.

http://www.artemiscompany.com/retailer.asp?state=il

There are Artemis dealers in Illinois.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:09 am

$52 for #40 for the Artemis Power. And I did find it locally.

Glad you posted that article Rick. I had the opportunity recently to hear Dr. Reynolds give his insight on animal nutrition, and his reccomendation was to feed that higher protein/fat ratio year round for muscle and joint repair and preventive injury's to working class dogs, now his specialty is sled dogs along with being an animal nutrionist, and lead scientist at purina, and Cornell university for 20 years, funny in his seminar he never mentioned feeding a diet strictly on purina pro plan performance, yet it was based more on the protein/fat rations, however he was dressed head to toe in Purina clothing, but I found his knowledge on animal nutrition and training more insightful than his clothing.. :D
In addition to the nutrition he touched some on training aspects of sled dogs and how we as sporting dog owners specifically bird dogs could incorporate his sled dog training methods in with our programs, very interesting topic and very informative. Funny he mentioned that his sled dog team is comprised of a mixture of German Shorthairs, and Pointers bred into his Huskies. Sled dog folks IN MY OPINION are light years ahead of most of us in animal nutrition, and training. If any of you have the opportunity to hear or see him or his seminars, I would take full advantage of it.

How much is to much? Contact Dr. Reynolds I am sure he would be helpful. :wink:

Stepping off the soapbox now,
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Duane M » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:14 am

ezzy333 wrote: Same with the Corn Gluten which is largely a by-product of the Ethanol industry and is an excellent animal feed

Ezzy


Don't forget it is also a great herbicide and fertilizer as well pesticide additive. :lol: Also corn gluten meal is the by-product after the manufacture of corn syrup or starch, not ethanol production. It is also an incomplete protein especially in Lysine, which a shortage of can and does lead to increased plasma and urinary urea especially in females.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:36 am

Back in 99-2000 the Iams company did a study on a quail plantation for its pointers, I am sure you all remember hearing about it I remember it being quite the topic of discussion at some of the trials I was at, at the time. Pretty sure it was Euk Premium Performance as the feed.

Anyway another good article for reading.
Chip

FEEDING THE HIGH PERFORMANCE BIRD DOG
Martin Coffman
DVM, Sporting Dog Veterinarian
The Iams Company & Eukanuba


When bird dogs are fed a modern, complete high-fat performance food, good results can be expected. During the 1999-2000 quail season, a study was conducted by Iams Company scientists at a quail plantation in southwest Georgia.
Twenty-three trained English Pointers were randomly divided into two groups, without regard for hunting ability, and fed either of two well-known commercially available dog foods: a high-fat performance food* or the food the plantation had been using during previous seasons. The foods were supplied in brown bags with no identification labels, and the handlers were not aware of which dogs were eating which food.
The dogs fed the performance food had 55% more finds over the season than the dogs fed the standard food. When adjusted for time hunted, this amounted to the dogs fed the performance food having about one find per hour more than the dogs fed the traditional product.
The study also documented that dogs fed the performance type food maintained or gained body weight and condition throughout the hunting season, while dogs fed the standard food lost body weight and condition. The results of this study imply that diet can affect the overall performance of hunting dogs.
Since quail season in Georgia can be warm, this research also looked at the effects of the temperature-humidity index on performance of the dogs. On 9 days during the hunting season, this index was rated as “high” or “severe”. Despite these warm days, the dogs fed the high-fat diet maintained their superior performance based on more finds per hour compared to dogs fed the lower-fat food.4
Nutrition is a tool for bird dog owners and trainers, similar to breeding, training, and conditioning. Modern commercial foods can help field trialers and hunters enjoy seeing their dogs perform to their highest level. Increased knowledge about performance dog nutrition will help you to select the best type food for your dogs and your owners’ dogs.
*Eukanuba Premium Performance
1. Kronfield DS: Diet and performance in racing sled dogs. J Am Vet Assoc 1973:162:470-474.
2. Reynolds AJ: Effect of diet on performance. The Iams Company Performance Dog Nutrition Symposium, Colorado State University, April, 1995.
3. Reinhart G et al: The beneficial role of antioxidants in canine athletes. Proceedings International Canine Sports Medicine Symposium, Orlando FL, January 2000.
4. Davenport G et al: Effect of diet on hunting performance of english pointers. Vet Therapeutics Vol 2, No.1, Winter 2001.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:48 am

Thanks for that reading...I think there is a typo in footnotes. DS Kronfield as noted might be DS Kronfeld, who was a big guy at the University of Pennsylvania in nutrition.

He actually endorsed Annamaet and worked on the formulas.

http://www.annamaet.com/index.php

The guy that owns Annamaet is a musher. Its supposedly very good food.

sal
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:53 am

Dr. Martin Coffman DVM Iams company wrote the article....I'll let him correct his typo. Thanks for the heads up :wink:

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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:48 am

LOL no prob
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:28 pm

Bosco, I couldn't help but notice that with all that fluff you didn't answer my question, as it obviously wasn't Pro Plan your company's men looked into.

So what you claim to "know for a fact" apparently remains conjecture based on how some other companies operate.

And you are welcome to that belief. In all candor, I'd feed what I feed regardless, and the question was, as stated, curiosity based.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:25 pm

it was brought up specifically as the worst offender
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:33 pm

my friend also said he is not a fan of any of the performance formulas because to achieve those protein levels with animal protein in extruded dog foods is difficult, so even good companies cut corners. he suggested staying with the best maintainance kibble you can find where you live and add fresh protein and fat when the dog is training and working.

he told me "who doesn't have eggs and olive oil"

have a nice weekend all!!!
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:51 pm

First it was an expert you'd hired to check out two companies, one that was new and another that got into recall trouble. Neither of which could be PP. Now it's a friend specifically citing PP as a worst offender that's feeding you support for your little agenda. And assuming either exists, we've still no reason to believe you've a source that has done more than read a lable and assume worst case.

But I do have reason to believe that a great many PP dogs are doing remarkable work and living long healthy lives. One 12yr-old example of which who can still hit half-mile licks when the country inspires him to is snoozing under my desk. And I've much more faith in him than your expert or friend.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:09 pm

You should read my post again. What I said was that I looked at two investments in dog food companies. The first one was deemed unacceptable because the proposed marketing of the product was misleading compared to the quality of the products. The second one was in the idea phase at the time of the industry recall a few years ago so no one wanted to bother with a new idea at the time.

We hired a group of experts to review the products, business ideas and marketing. An ethics expert, a production expert and a nutritionist. I am still friends with them and I use them as resources.

I have no agenda, I am merely a pet owner like you.

Purina is so bad that even Eukanuba ironically filed a lawsuit a couple years ago for false advertising. I don't sell dog food, I only feed it like you.

If you want to spend all that money for corn gluten, you can. Pro Plan's protein is 40-50% from corn gluten. If more people were critical of companies like Purina dog food would improve and we would all benefit.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Georgia Boy » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:46 pm

lvrgsp wrote:Dr. Martin Coffman DVM Iams company wrote the article....I'll let him correct his typo. Thanks for the heads up :wink:

Chip



I will tell him next time I see him, maybe this weekend. He is a personal friend of mine and a DD guy as well.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:54 am

Georgia Boy,
Thanks, I enjoyed his article it was very informative, and I'm not to worried about his typos :wink:

Chip
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:15 am

Bosco, I did, in fact, waste the time it took to read the post in question and know what you wrote. I also wasted the time it took to read this lastest post and find it more unrelated fluff and conjecture, rather than an answer to what I thought a simple question.

Now I'm going to finish this cup of coffee and put my time to the far better use of working a couple dogs. Enjoy your day.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby claybuster_aa » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:37 am

If chicken is listed as the #1, then obviously it is the #1. However that does not mean the amount of actual chicken protein is greater than the summation of all the other protein sources within the ration. What you hope to see (IMO) is the combination of animal sources proteins within the feed be greater than the gluten source protein within the feed, regardless of the #1. If your feed starts off with the #1 fresh chicken and has nothing else to back it up animal source down the line, chances are the ration is not animal based protein but gluten based...and that is where you find much of the deception. They can give you the illusion the food is animal based with a picture of chicken on the bag, and a #1 ingredient chicken, but the food can be higher in Gluten source proteins.

Charlie
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:02 am

yep....saying that all along.

and originally I brought it up due to PP's cost....
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:01 am

For everyones informatiom:
http://www.petfoodindustry.com/ViewArti ... x?id=12808

This isn't all we have learned but is quite clear about this one area.

Ezzy
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby lvrgsp » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:49 am

Mbosco,
Let me see if I have this right? Seems to me you don't much care for Purina as far as there dog food is concerned? Your not much on grainy diets, or certain vegetable proteins such as CGM? Obviously price is a big factor to you, as you have brought it up multiple times here?
Curious as to what you are feeding, and what PP in your area costs, as you have made it clear since PP uses CGM vs. price?
Also was wondering your background in animal nutrition? I would be interested in your sources for animal nutrition, as I am always willing to learn something, no need to post there contact info here, you could PM it to me or email it, of course this is if they are willing to divulge there knowledge.
Much appreciated,

Chip
cdenhamjr@gmail.com
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby Rick Hall » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:56 am

Ezzy, that article has been making the food board rounds for some time - but this thread suggests that another pass couldn't hurt.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ezzy333 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:45 pm

Rick

Yep I know it has but seems so much of the facts about nutrition has never been seen or just completely ignore. I think there is just a complete lack of understanding how the real world works so I have tried to ignore but thought it was good to throw some facts in so some of the new people don't read some of this and think it is true. We were involved in much of the early work done with Corn Gluten and like so many other things the by-product of some grain processing becomes the more important part of the process.

And another thing is Rocky Mountain Oysters and Crawdads are a main attraction at many a get together out here in the sticks.

Ezzy
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby claybuster_aa » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:57 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:I am looking into feeding a different dog food. I currently use high performance Eagle pack. It is 30% protein, 15% fat(iforget). Has a lot of good stuff flax seed, omega 3 and 6 chondrotin and glucosemen. I feed it year round. Dogs do well, stools tight and limited. Coats good. Etc. It is $42 for 40 pound bag.

Diamond has an extreme athlete formula which has alot of the same stuff but is 32% protein and 20% fat.

Why do I use the high protien stuff in off season? Because they do well and in the wild canids eat primarily all protien.

Any way this may be a flawed assesment and description of why but there it is.

I want to save money the diamond does that and still gives a great product for $8 less.

How much protien is too much? Can this cause kidney issues or some other issues. Any information is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick


Diamond Performance Formula is 3.0% Fiber. Eagle Pack Power Formula is 4.5% Fiber. Also, they are both 30/20 feeds. Knowing that, IMO Diamond is the better pick because I feel less is best when it comes to the Fiber for dogs.

Regardless of which you choose, you don't need to change a formula because of activity. The only changes you really have to make is adjusting the feeing amounts. During periods of higher stress (activity like hunting) you will notice your dog may need to eat more so you have to adjust the amounts given as compared to the off-season. Each dogs needs depending upon variables like how hard they are hunting will be different, so you can’t really say how much they will need, it will vary dog to dog. You can keep your dog on the same formula all year round, just adjust the amounts as needed like your doing now.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby mcbosco » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:28 pm

either vary the amount of food or add some fresh foods like raw liver, turkey necks, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, olive and fish oil....all available at the grocery store or sitting in the fridge...canned sardines in water are great to throw over kibble when the dog needs a little extra for work or hunt.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby ACooper » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:12 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
And another thing is Rocky Mountain Oysters and Crawdads are a main attraction at many a get together out here in the sticks.

Ezzy



Now that is something you cant argue about, maybe our next crawfish boil we will have some calf frys also. Sounds good to me!
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Re: How much protein is too much

Postby brdhntr » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:54 am

As a former strength athlete, and one who had high success at the world and national level, I know the importance of quality protein in a diet. I doubt you will find one high level athlete on a diet containing vegetable as the primary source of protein, and one could argue that dogs would do worse than people as vegetarians. If the label is not very clear, and leaves room for debate as to the quality of ingredients, it is most likely done for a reason. When you look at the label of a good food from a company with nothing to hide, the label is amazingly clear, with little guessing, or assuming to be done.
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