How much protein is too much

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:00 am

my point entirely, look at the label of Orijen vs Purina and it is quite clear, of course Orijen costs more I realize that but it is just one example.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:22 am

brdhntr wrote:As a former strength athlete, and one who had high success at the world and national level, I know the importance of quality protein in a diet. I doubt you will find one high level athlete on a diet containing vegetable as the primary source of protein, and one could argue that dogs would do worse than people as vegetarians. If the label is not very clear, and leaves room for debate as to the quality of ingredients, it is most likely done for a reason. When you look at the label of a good food from a company with nothing to hide, the label is amazingly clear, with little guessing, or assuming to be done.
Labeling of all feeds is strictly regulated as to what you can or cannot put on a label. There is no place to show the quality of the ingredient or how much of each is being used. However, in the advertising or marketing areas there is little control other than you still can't say things that are just outright lies. And of course there are terms that can be used that tell you a little if you understand what they mean. As an example, "human grade" says more about how a product is handled than what the product really is. For instance a human grade grain can only have a few rat and mouse droppings in it compared to the same grain that has more. Or a product has been handled in a cleaner environment so there is less chance of contamination with someother product. You see those warning now about food processed where they use peanuts. And even if human grade ingredients were purchased they wouldn't still be of that quality after being put into storage in the food plant if the bin had not been cleaned and basically sterized. And that just doesn't and can't happen in a feed mill.

I also find little correlation between a human and a dogs needs but I do agree a dog needs both animal and vegetable protein to balance the amino acids that are essential to their overall health and that does affect their performance level also. People and dogs that are competeing need to be fed well but not the same as our requirements are completely different in may areas and our digestion properties are quite different.


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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:25 am

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/products/adultAnalysis.aspx

even with some of its limitations, this product labelling gives you far more information than others...enough to make an informed decision

breakdown by weight of product and calories plus the normal Guaranteed Analysis.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:33 am

http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/s ... ulation=sa

this one as well, open the PDF lower right hand corner

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:21 pm

When you get time explain why one of your preferred feeds say fresh fish and canola oil is not usable by dogs and cats and the other one uses them. Seems odd to me.

Both of those feeds look good but are quite different. Just another example of the fact that there is no one feed better than another but it is whether the feed has balanced their ingredients to provide the necessary nutrition. I would guess both of them are as good as Pro Plan and Diamond but I'll also bet they are much more expensive. But before anyone can tell how good a feed is they would have to feed it and see how well the dogs do on it. Regardless of whats printed on the feed label or the claims made by their marketing people the only true test is how it works. Most of us know how most of the good high volume feeds work as we see the results on hundreds of dogs. And there is a reason that certain companies sell a large volume throughout the country while other companies are trying to hang on by directing their sales to the few people who think that buying a high priced speciality feed provides their house pet a better feed.

I will bet both of those feeds could increase their volume greatly if they would lower their price to a reasonable level so people that are feeding a kennel full of performance dogs could afford them. But then they probably don't hve the facilities to make a feed in any volume so th=y prefer to try and make their money with a huge markup on a low quanity.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by brdhntr » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:36 pm

Both of those feeds look good but are quite different. Just another example of the fact that there is no one feed better than another


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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by brdhntr » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:46 pm

mcbosco wrote:http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/s ... ulation=sa

this one as well, open the PDF lower right hand corner
This is a fine example of a company going beyond the minimum to inform their customer, compare that to the Purina site. I can't even find a product ingredient list on their site. Why would that be? Lots of rhetoric, almost no specifics, and some things down right meant to deceive.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:49 pm

brdhntr wrote:
mcbosco wrote:http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/s ... ulation=sa

this one as well, open the PDF lower right hand corner
This is a fine example of a company going beyond the minimum to inform their customer, compare that to the Purina site. I can't even find a product ingredient list on their site. Why would that be? Lots of rhetoric, almost no specifics, and some things down right meant to deceive.
Better watch it brdhntr you are messing with the sainted Purina. :lol: Try calling and talking to staff sometime there, much different than other feeds I have called.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by brdhntr » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:53 pm

Duane M wrote:
brdhntr wrote:
mcbosco wrote:http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/s ... ulation=sa

this one as well, open the PDF lower right hand corner
This is a fine example of a company going beyond the minimum to inform their customer, compare that to the Purina site. I can't even find a product ingredient list on their site. Why would that be? Lots of rhetoric, almost no specifics, and some things down right meant to deceive.
Better watch it brdhntr you are messing with the sainted Purina. :lol: Try calling and talking to staff sometime there, much different than other feeds I have called.
Different in a good way?

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by GUNSMOKE » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:28 pm

Heck Rick see what you started. I've been feeding Sam's club Exceed now for sometime it's a 30/20 I have a whole kennel full of trial dogs and hunting dogs they've been doing fine on it. I switched from PP because of the number of dogs I have I needed a less expensive feed but one that my dogs would still be able to compete with. I personally know of people feeding Diamond with no problems what so ever. Good Luck, I hope this helps without starting WW3. P.S. is it still raining up your way wifes cousins from Momouth said this year probably not looking so hot?
Last edited by pear on Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Foul Language.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:24 pm

you mean monmouth nj? worst summer ever, ever..rain, clouds & cold when its not raining

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:35 pm

there is a call center at Purina thats the staff, i asked for that info and said i would get a letter

but that was not my point..the point is information, i doubt most dog food companies could disclose that type information without worrying.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:42 pm

Canola oil is not in either formula, not sure what you meant, both have fish

both are made by the same company but Acana is not as heavy duty on the protein as Orijen

i wish that label was the standard

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:45 pm

That label is the standard. It has the same guarazntees every label has. As it says the other info on there is just what is typical of that kind of feed but is not a guarantee that is what any particular batch of their feed is. There is nothing wrong with having more info on the tags but it is a huge expense and doesn't improve the feed a bit. It is just a matter of where to spend your money, either on tags and labels or on the feed ingredients. Plus the reason they only print what is typical is they can not guarantee that is what is in each batch of feed without testing for everyone of the items on the list. That info is just a marketing tool and does not provide much useful information.

It comes down to the fact that all of the info is nice if you have nothing better to do than read the label but for the average dog owner it has little use since they don't publish the dogs requirements and in many cases have never determined what the dogs requirements are of any of those items.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:03 pm

i think each pet owner has the right to make that decision, so info like that is superior is every way, not to mention whats in those bags

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:15 pm

Why is that info important on a dog food and not on what you eat? Seems strange, but I do know the dog food has a lot more nutrition in it than the breakfast cereal we eat and feed our kids. But no one is half as concerned about what the kids are eating.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Big Dave » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:49 pm

So........how much protein is too much?

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:15 am

brdhntr wrote: Different in a good way?
Not at all like Bosco said you basically get a call center. I have called other feed cos and talked to actual staff nutritionists and on stafff vets, the big P is the only one I did not get beyond the gates.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:17 am

Big Dave wrote:So........how much protein is too much?
I doubt anyone on here really knows Dave, best I could say is adjust to the level of work the dogs are doing.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:34 am

ezzy333 wrote:Why is that info important on a dog food and not on what you eat? Seems strange, but I do know the dog food has a lot more nutrition in it than the breakfast cereal we eat and feed our kids. But no one is half as concerned about what the kids are eating.

Ezzy
Ezzy that is apples to oranges if I have ever read it. The kids total diet is not comprised of just breakfast cereal, well at least the vast majority. The dogs on the other hand rely in most cases for the vast majority of thier total nutrition.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:52 am

duane i was agreeing with you, Purina you get a call center and they promise to follow up by mail...you are right with other foods you talk to someone real.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by big steve46 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:21 am

Generally, most all of human food is overprocessed and chemicalized, and the nuritional content to an extent is not as available as pet foods. Commercial pet food has many ingredients in it, so it is much better nutritionally speaking in a comparative sense.

I believe because RDAs are set too low for humans to have optimum health, that it is imperative to use good supplements in the human diet, or at least be extra selective in the foods you eat. Animal food has not had the nutrients processd out so it is less necessary to supplement their diets.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:04 pm

Duane M wrote:
brdhntr wrote: Different in a good way?
Not at all like Bosco said you basically get a call center. I have called other feed cos and talked to actual staff nutritionists and on stafff vets, the big P is the only one I did not get beyond the gates.

If you are calling Purina they no longer make Purina Dogfood. You need to call Nestles.

It has never been determined how much is too much but we all are feeding more than is necessary for good health. But th needs change from day to day so it probably impossibeto put a figure on how much is too much.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:57 pm

ezzy333 wrote: If you are calling Purina they no longer make Purina Dogfood. You need to call Nestles.
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Yes I know that Ezzy, Nestles took over in 12-01.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:48 pm

Nestles bought Purina's pet food division. Purina Mills still make the Purina feed that has the Checkerboard logo.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by lvrgsp » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:50 pm

Land O' Lakes took over Purina Mills.........

FWIW,

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Setter » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:38 am

It’s not protein as much as it is the amino acid profile, isn't it? Does corn gluten contain all the essential amino acids or not? Ya know the liver doesn’t “see” if the protein is from animal or grain, but only the amino acids. IMHO I don’t see anything on this track in the thread or ever regarding the subject of corn/animal protein.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:27 am

There is a minority in this thread that believes the proper protein for a dog is animal-based. Why people disagree is beyond me, other than blind brand loyalty. We have discussed some brands that disclose things the right way and what some believe to be the wrong way.

We have also discussed that foods with large proportions of animal-based proteins are not more expensive than corn-based foods either per pound, per calorie or per day cost.

Without question there are legitimate issues on availability in certain areas. I was talking to Chip and a certain food he likes as I do he cant get in Illinois. I can call any store in my area and they either carry it or the big distributor in NJ has it. The guy that makes that food is a champion musher and its a premier chow. There are many websites that waive shipping on orders of $50 or more so that's one way to get what you want if your local guy is afraid to anger the Purina sales rep.

To me corn gluten is a man-made industrial waste product and has no place in dog food. When they find yet another product like it that is cheaper it will be in that bag of Purina and they will proclaim it as good or better than corn gluten. Big business has a way of rationalizing things ya know.

My dog eats raw and Abady and it costs me no more than Pro Plan. Abady Classic costs $65 for 40lbs that has the caloric equivalent of 80lbs or more of kibble. About 94% of the protein is chicken, menhaden fish & beef liver and its 80% animal protein by weight. Fed alone, he holds 93lbs on 2.5 cups. There is a guy on here that feeds a Setter 1 cup.

6 months ago I put down a Jack Russel that lived to almost 19 and she ate only Abady for the last 15 years of her life. She hardly cost me a penny in those 19 years. She ate 1/3rd of a cup.

Abady has horrible distribution outside the big cities so I didn't even bring it up. But if you see a black Bouvier on a plain brown paper box, buy 5lbs and give it a week. A medium-sized dog like most on here should be able to hold weight and thrive on about 1.5 cups maybe 2 and clean-up is a breeze after a week. If you like it order a big box and it will be custom made for you most likely and be a week old when you get it. Abady will ship directly to breeders.

If you think I am nuts, call or email Fidelco in Mass and asked about Abady. Fidelco is a large seeing-eye foundation that has whelped several thousand Sheperds on it over the past 25 years and reduced substantially many common medical problems.

I was at Westminster this year and saw the brown box all over.

sal

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Rich Heaton » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:45 am

mcbosco wrote:My dog eats raw and Abady and it costs me no more than Pro Plan. Abady Classic costs $65 for 40lbs that has the caloric equivalent of 80lbs or more of kibble. About 94% of the protein is chicken, menhaden fish & beef liver and its 80% animal protein by weight. Fed alone, he holds 93lbs on 2.5 cups. There is a guy on here that feeds a Setter 1 cup.

6 months ago I put down a Jack Russel that lived to almost 19 and she ate only Abady for the last 15 years of her life. She hardly cost me a penny in those 19 years. She ate 1/3rd of a cup
Sal,,,, I really don't know anything about dog food but I kinda of enjoy reading these threads,,, but when you throw stuff like this to make a point I have to add and I might be wrong,,,, but I would guess Purina Dog Chow has raised more dogs than any other dog food in the country and people love to put the bad mouth to that food. I believe PDC is a corn based food.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by nanney1 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:14 pm

O.K. how much protein is too much? I'm not sure any amount is too much as long as everything balances out in the long run.

Say you feed a dog fresh chicken breast with the bone and fat removed. Basically protein and water. Is this o.k.??? Well, yes for a day or two or maybe even a week. You could dehydrate it to remove the moisture and it would still be ok, for a limited time. The problem is that you would get out of whack on your calcium/phosphorus ratio because without bone, you would be feeding a diet too high in phosphorus with no calcium to balance it out. Also, if you trim the fat, the dog will not have fat for energy.

But if your worried about whether or not 21% protein is too little or 32% is too much, it probably depends more on the food and the individual dog. A lot of people are now feeding Orijen at over 40% with good results, even to large breed puppies.

Not sure it answered the question, but I hope it helps.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:55 pm

The origin of this question is solely a human construct because a wild canine eats virtually nothing but protein and fat, any plant based food is incidental.
So no amount is too much unless its the wrong protein or low quality protein. That is why a food like Orijen or Core can use such high amounts of animal protein meal, because the quality is good....but they are close to the limit due to calcium levels and balance as well as ash.

As for the post about PDG, you are right that many dogs have eaten it, but since products like that came on the market, bloat, diabetes, rotten teeth, ear infections and cancer have sky-rocketed. Even toy dogs are bloating now.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Georgia Boy » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:08 pm

I have fed several foods to my dog in the past couple years,(Eukanuba,Nutro,Diamond extreme athlete,Taste of the wild) For the past couple months I have been feeding the Evo red meat formula. It is a high protein and fat diet and he is in the best shape ever, with a great looking coat. I feel the results are well worth the cost of the food so I can justify feeding it. This thread has gone on for how many pages? I dont think anyone is going to change their mind, if your dog does good on a food, feed it.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by birddogger » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:03 pm

Zoe wrote, "I feel that genetics play a far larger role than diet".
Thank you Zoe, I have been trying to get that point across to people [without much success] for years.

As for dog food, If my dogs are staying healthy and in good condition and the kennel is easy cleaning, I don't really care what is in it. I do like to feed a high protein and fat formula of whatever brand I feed, which happens to be Sportmix. It is inexpensive, the dogs love it, and I get it about 1/2 mile from my house. No need to think about anything else.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:03 pm

mcbosco wrote:The origin of this question is solely a human construct because a wild canine eats virtually nothing but protein and fat, any plant based food is incidental.
So no amount is too much unless its the wrong protein or low quality protein. That is why a food like Orijen or Core can use such high amounts of animal protein meal, because the quality is good....but they are close to the limit due to calcium levels and balance as well as ash.

As for the post about PDG, you are right that many dogs have eaten it, but since products like that came on the market, bloat, diabetes, rotten teeth, ear infections and cancer have sky-rocketed. Even toy dogs are bloating now.
This is a post that would have to come from some one in the middle of New York. Come join me for a few weeks and I can maybe show you what wild canines eat and it isn't all protein and fat. probably it isn't even mostly protein and fat as they are constantly eating vegetable and fruits they find in the wild. This I can prove to you and maybe then you will open your mind to what every nutritionist and any one that has fed many dogs plus other animals already know.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by birddogger » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:16 am

I debated whether or not to post on this subject again, as it has been beaten to death and nobody ever seems to change their mind, especially if they are reading so called scientific studies. However, I was thinking about something from my childhood and decided to share it, even though I realize that many others have told about similar experiences.
Anyway, when I was growing up, my grandparents lived way back in the hills of Green County in IL. They always had at least two dogs around [usually mutts] My grandparents worked hard to keep themselves fed, raising their own food and basically living off the land, which, BTW, I thought was so cool at the time. Now to the moral of the story. There was never ever any type of dog food on the place. The dogs' diet consisted of bread, milk gravy and cornbread. There was never a sick dog on the place and every dog they had were happy, active and lived to a ripe old age.

Sorry to be so long, but I just had to share that.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:10 am

birddogger wrote:I debated whether or not to post on this subject again, as it has been beaten to death and nobody ever seems to change their mind, especially if they are reading so called scientific studies. However, I was thinking about something from my childhood and decided to share it, even though I realize that many others have told about similar experiences.
Anyway, when I was growing up, my grandparents lived way back in the hills of Green County in IL. They always had at least two dogs around [usually mutts] My grandparents worked hard to keep themselves fed, raising their own food and basically living off the land, which, BTW, I thought was so cool at the time. Now to the moral of the story. There was never ever any type of dog food on the place. The dogs' diet consisted of bread, milk gravy and cornbread. There was never a sick dog on the place and every dog they had were happy, active and lived to a ripe old age.

Sorry to be so long, but I just had to share that.

Charlie
I think most of us older people at least have had the same experiemce. I sold tons of Hog Feed to farmers to feed their dogs before there was commercial dog food. All of them thought is was so much easier than grinding their own corn to make cornbread for the dogs. We nalways had at least one larger cattle and hog dog plus many toy terriers that we raised and never had a problem with any of them. Don't remember ever taking any of them to the vets as we gave our own shots and they were all healthy and active and lived a normal life.

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claybuster_aa
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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by claybuster_aa » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:12 pm

mcbosco wrote:There is a minority in this thread that believes the proper protein for a dog is animal-based. ...

To me corn gluten is a man-made industrial waste product and has no place in dog food. When they find yet another product like it that is cheaper it will be in that bag of Purina and they will proclaim it as good or better than corn gluten. Big business has a way of rationalizing things ya know.

My dog eats raw and Abady and it costs me no more than Pro Plan. Abady Classic costs $65 for 40lbs that has the caloric equivalent of 80lbs or more of kibble. About 94% of the protein is chicken, menhaden fish & beef liver and its 80% animal protein by weight. Fed alone, he holds 93lbs on 2.5 cups. There is a guy on here that feeds a Setter 1 cup. ...

If you think I am nuts. ...

sal
I don't think you're nuts, but I think you have the corn thing all wrong along with the wrong reasoning. I'm pretty sure I have a box of Abady in my shed, filled with empty shotshell hulls for reloading. It is an older box and you may be very surprised about some of those ingredients. Kibbled yellow corn, Corn Meal, and Corn Gluten Meals, were longtime Abady Granular staple ingredients. It has only been about 4 or 5 years since the move off of corn, and not for reason of myths about being allergenic and a horrible waste product ingredient. Corn has always been a non-allergenic great staple ingredient in dog food.
Dogs are not allergic to corn. I fed Abady granular with corn for at least 2 or 3 years before the shift. My Setter is in her 7th year of being on straight granular with no mixing of other feeds. The 64K question, why the shift off of corn for Abady?
Abady has always boasted a 'Natural' theme. In a letter posted on the Abady website several years back (A Response to the Food Critics), Abady defended his stance and position in the market. You see, the food critics at ridiculous websites like RATEITALL were bashing his foods relentlessly for the use of Chicken By-Product meal and Lard. People began to write letters to the company looking for explanation as to why the negativity surrounding the products. Abady struck back putting his cards on the table about the ingredients. One guy even wrote he used to work for the company witnessed rotten beef with maggots. He explained how the poster for whatever reason was lying and meats they use either arrive in frozen blocks or they shop directly at local slaughter houses. Abady also in that letter explained the reasoning for the shift off corn. It wasn’t until GM Corn began to dominate in the market they decided to back off. Again, with the ‘natural’ theme, corn in the companies opinion began to cross that line where they would rather not go. The use of GM Corn (genetically modified) has been under debate, altered for pesticide resistance, Monsanto round-up ready, banned in some countries, and they obviously felt it was time to move on. And then after a quick go with Pearled Barley, they settled into just White Rice as the exclusive filler-type ingredient to ease costs for consumers. The important thing to realize regardless be it Corn, Pearled Barley, or White Rice, there is NO reliance of gluten source proteins within that protein core. They keep the protein core of the feed 90+ animal source. Side note about Pearled Barley, you rarely see it used in dog food. It is more expensive to purchase than Barley and gluten in the hull of the Barley is what they avoid. One of my dogs, the little guy did not do well on the Pearled Barley, was constantly going after his feet, yet my Setter never missed a beat during that time. I was glad to see the Pearled Barley go in about 6 months and White Rice had taken over.
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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:11 am

I remember corn in Abady and I also remember the liver-coated kibbled corn treats as well. I never bashed ground corn or even corn meal as an ingredient per se, just corn gluten and originally in the context of Pro Plan being a very high-priced, corn gluten-based food. Corn-gluten was essentially an industrial by-product without a use until it made its way into dog food via corporate horizontal and vertical intergration.

The whole origin of the thread was based on value and the nature of Purinas marketing, given that corn gluten is such a heavy contributor to PP's protein. If it were $20 a bag then I would have said nothing. As for corn allergies, it is quite possible that they were just dismissed as lunacy years ago like many other things.

There has been no retort to my original point..even by Purina, which was supposed to have sent me a detailed letter by now..but I have received nothing.

Abady's foods have always been viewed as odd, even now when they have never been better and have never been a better value or more available to people via the internet. If they put whole kibbled corn back in I would still buy it because the dogs loved crunching that stuff and it was a very minor contributor to the food's protein.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:33 am

mcbosco wrote:I remember corn in Abady and I also remember the liver-coated kibbled corn treats as well. I never bashed ground corn or even corn meal as an ingredient per se, just corn gluten and originally in the context of Pro Plan being a very high-priced, corn gluten-based food. Corn-gluten was essentially an industrial by-product without a use until it made its way into dog food via corporate horizontal and vertical intergration.

The whole origin of the thread was based on value and the nature of Purinas marketing, given that corn gluten is such a heavy contributor to PP's protein. If it were $20 a bag then I would have said nothing. As for corn allergies, it is quite possible that they were just dismissed as lunacy years ago like many other things.

There has been no retort to my original point..even by Purina, which was supposed to have sent me a detailed letter by now..but I have received nothing.

Abady's foods have always been viewed as odd, even now when they have never been better and have never been a better value or more available to people via the internet. If they put whole kibbled corn back in I would still buy it because the dogs loved crunching that stuff and it was a very minor contributor to the food's protein.
Once again you do not know or at least aren't giving us facts but just your opinion and I have no idea what you base that on. Corn Gluten is a by-product of wet corn milling where they are taking out the sugar or some other element that they need. It has been around for years and years and has always been used as a high quality energy and protein source in many different feeds. With the advent of ethanol there has been a greatly increased supply that is being used as dairy and beef cow feed without even mixing it in the rest of the ration. We haven't been able to use it in hog feed mainly because of the consistancy.

As far as being a by-product many if not most things you buy were the by-product at one time. Pork was a by-product of the lard industry, soybean meal was the by-product of the soy-oil industry, dogfood was the by-product of human meals to name a few. And I sure don't know where you get your prices but it seems you are getting ripped off on your dogfood. Guess I would look for some off brand feed too if I had to pay those prices. Nice thing is a dog can eat most anything and do well on it as you can see from all of the odd feeds that are fed and praised by different people.

I do know that any company that has been making dog food as long as Purina has is doing a great job of supplying a product people want or they would not still be in business.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:23 am

Claybuster AA said:
Dogs are not allergic to corn

Oh really? I know at least three vets who will argue that one with you. But your entitled to your opinion.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:38 am

Duane M wrote:Claybuster AA said:
Dogs are not allergic to corn

Oh really? I know at least three vets who will argue that one with you. But your entitled to your opinion.
This has been well documented if you do the research. It's something we have known for years since we have tried to find the dogs that were allergic for research purposes and there just aren't any if you do the tests. Food allergies are practically always associated with the protein sources such as te animal protein in a food but even those are rare. More often they are caused by enviromental causes that any other.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:21 am

Ezzy what the corn allergy is an allergy to the INCOMPLETE PROTEIN in corn. Allergies are most often protein related in any food allergy, milk, nuts, shellfish all those are protein related but still caused by the specific food and amino acid profile of that food source. Try again.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:31 am

Duane M wrote:Ezzy what the corn allergy is an allergy to the INCOMPLETE PROTEIN in corn. Allergies are most often protein related in any food allergy, milk, nuts, shellfish all those are protein related but still caused by the specific food and amino acid profile of that food source. Try again.
The protein in corn is just as complete as any other protein. After all there is no such thing as protein but rather just a bunch of amino acids that we call protein and the levels of each are independant of the others so it is our job when we formulate a feed to balance those amino acids so the animal you are feeding is getting all of the essential ones that it needs. That is exacty why a feed with both animal and vegetable sources provides those levels of all of the essential acids at a much lower totaL protein level. An example is when we went to a high lycine corn we were able to get the same results feeding a 14 protein feed as we were getting with a 16% before.

Allergy to corn is an old wifes tale that no one seems to know where or how it got started but corn has been the staple of the dogs diet for many many years and continues to be an excellent source of easily digestible complete carbs and a minor source of protein in almost every domesticated animal's diet in the world and many wild animals too.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:05 am

Ezzy you need to study proteins a bit. No vegetable source is a complete protein, corn for example lacks Lysine and Tryptophan which are essential amino acids. Vegans for example must combine vegatable protein sources in order to acheive a full amino acid profile, examples of this are beans and rice or beans and corn make a complete amino acid chain as the beans fill in the gaps and vice versa.
Heres a list of the essential amino acids the body must have.
•Arginine
•Isoleucine
•Histidine
•Leucine
•Methionine
•Lysine
•Phenylalanine
•Tryptophan
•Threonine
•Valine

Far as the high Lysine corn goes you mention those are genetically mutated corns and have been shown in hogs to increase weight. But they also cost more and like any genetically mutated food source could have unseen consequences.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by mcbosco » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:26 am

This thread is getting silly as the pro-grain position by some is the same mumbo jumbo you hear from the big dog food companies...it is just a rationalization of using cheaper ingredients. That is the whole truth about why corn and corn derivatives are in dog food..cost and cost alone.

Whatever the exact reaction is, call it an allergy for simplicity, some dogs just dont do well on foods like PP where corn-based protein is so prominent. Ezzy you know that vets struggled for years with ear infections and never looked to diet, but now the good ones do and have had much better success with this problem. I know mine has.

Whether you want to call it a "true allergy" is up to you.

Rationalizing the obvious ploys of big business is very sad. My dog is not a feed-lot steer, where the objective at any ethical cost is to fatten them up quickly so they can be slaughtered. I have heard you on several occasions talk agri-business, thats fine for chickens, hogs and cows but not for pets. Actually its not fine for chickens, hogs and cows, but that's a different argument.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by djswizz » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:45 am

Anything over 60% of the dogs daily kcal intake I would say is excessive. No science to back this up though. I only know human nutrition and this works for bodybuilders, which I am.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:07 pm

djswizz wrote:Anything over 60% of the dogs daily kcal intake I would say is excessive. No science to back this up though. I only know human nutrition and this works for bodybuilders, which I am.

I would say your not far off but would probably go 70 for dogs since their digestive system is geared to a higher protein levels, again nothing scientific. Most bodybuilders I know go lower than 60% though outside of when they cut for competition, most of the time they do 40/40/20 during non comp times at comp time they build to a 70P/25C/5F and get real bitchy as they progress the scale :lol: . I know when I cut for grappling I find a 50P/30C/20F for the first week works great then I go to 60/20/20 since the carbs retain water and the fats will provide me the energy due to ketosis switch.

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by djswizz » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 pm

Duane M wrote:
djswizz wrote:Anything over 60% of the dogs daily kcal intake I would say is excessive. No science to back this up though. I only know human nutrition and this works for bodybuilders, which I am.

I would say your not far off but would probably go 70 for dogs since their digestive system is geared to a higher protein levels, again nothing scientific. Most bodybuilders I know go lower than 60% though outside of when they cut for competition, most of the time they do 40/40/20 during non comp times at comp time they build to a 70P/25C/5F and get real bitchy as they progress the scale :lol: . I know when I cut for grappling I find a 50P/30C/20F for the first week works great then I go to 60/20/20 since the carbs retain water and the fats will provide me the energy due to ketosis switch.
Good to see hunters who know their nutrition! I myself do a 55/15/30 of p/c/f during my cuts. 70% for protein? Ugh, no wonder they are bitchy ;-)

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by Duane M » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:34 pm

Nah they are bitchy I think because of the lack of fats I think :lol: . People would be real surprised to see what some BB walk around at when not in comp. A couple of HW I know are pretty dang fat actually, but with plenty of muscle, till 8 weeks out hit. I know myself it's the lack of carbs that make me bitchy when I am in the middle of a cut. Right now I am cutting actually for comp this weekend, going to 185 from a start of 215 three weeks ago, I am at 195 right now so the other ten are a breeze, just dehydrate in the sauna. Then it's to the closest steak joint after weigh in. :D

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Re: How much protein is too much

Post by djswizz » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:57 pm

That's what I meant. High protein = less carbs and fat that usual. Thus, low carbs for me makes me a crab... Sorry for the hijack. Now back to your regularly scheduled food debate.

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