For hard to keep dogs.

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ezzy333
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:05 pm

mcbosco wrote: Ezzy, tell me kibble has nothing to do with bloat.
OK. Bloat is a rather rare problem connected closely with a full stomach during and occassionally immediately after activity in a few deep chested breeds and what is in the stomach has little to do with it.

There also can be a bloat problem with any feed that produces a lot of gas in the stomach but it rarely happens with dogs.

Both are something that we all need to be aware of but it is not even common let alone an epidemic.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by mcbosco » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:51 pm

bloat is the #2 killer of dogs behind cancer..i hardly call it a trivial problem...you should read the Purdue study about mitigating the risk of feeding just kibble..its pretty clear even to a city boy like me...

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:14 pm

Lets do a poll shall we? Lets have everyone of our almost 4000 membersthat have had a dog have bloat problems to tellus about it and if you would like to see the comparison we could ask everyone who has had a dog have cancer tell us too. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:21 pm

mcbosco wrote:Most of these guys dont know a thing about caring for a pet, they come out of the agri-business side of things where you feed them whatever is "cheap" to fatten them up or just keep them alive. The comment about fish oil was laughable. Look up molecular distillation or about heavy metal retention or exposure in certain species.

Also anyone that worries about a healthy dog getting sick on Salmonella really shouldn't preach to anyone about the virtues of corn gluten, soy meal, cellulose powder, sodium bentonite, beet pulp, molassess and whatever else the big companies can find to mask the low quality of their products.

Also, its curious why the kibble-only folks never address bloat....just kind goes right past them.

Ezzy, tell me kibble has nothing to do with bloat.

I would like to see you tell all of the people who depend on the well being of their anaimals to make a living that they don't take good care of their animals. Have you ever gotten a loan to buy a bull or a boar for your herd? When you go out and spend a few thousand for an animal you better believe it is given the best care possible. So much for you to learn if you would just open your mind to what the rest of the world does and why. No one has tried to tell you not to feed the way you want and it would be nice to have that returned.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by slistoe » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:03 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Lets do a poll shall we? Lets have everyone of our almost 4000 membersthat have had a dog have bloat problems to tellus about it and if you would like to see the comparison we could ask everyone who has had a dog have cancer tell us too. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

Ezzy
# of dogs Owned - 27
Dogs owned from birth to death - 12
Dogs dying from Cancer - 4
Dogs having a case of bloat - 0

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:05 pm

No. of dogsthat lived out there lives with us=near 75

No. with Cancer=1

No with bloat=0

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by fordman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:15 am

Thats why I use Pharmacutical grade fish oil, and out of 15 dogs feed purina no cancer all live to be old and gray. Me thinks mr mcbosco is a keyboard master with his short time her and already hundreds of post on all these dog issues. :lol:

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by brdhntr » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:27 am

So what did the dogs die from? My guess is that you really don't know what their exact causes of death were.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by slistoe » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:46 am

You are right, there is no way to know if the 17 yr. old Brittany that was found dead in her sleep had cancer and that is what caused her to die. But I do know for sure that it was not bloat.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ACooper » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:47 am

Probably diabetic complications that could have been resolved with an overpriced grain free dog food or a totally raw diet.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by slistoe » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:50 am

That probably would have fixed her arthritis as well, wouldn't it. I feel so guilty now. :(

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by brdhntr » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:26 am

slistoe wrote:You are right, there is no way to know if the 17 yr. old Brittany that was found dead in her sleep had cancer and that is what caused her to die. But I do know for sure that it was not bloat.

So all your dogs live to be 17, hunt to the last day, then die in their sleep with a clean bill of health? My point is you don't really know. Also you don't need to become diabetic to have issues with hypoglycemia. Hypoglycemia is also most prevalent during time of intense exercise, this would be when your hunting. Now you can also tell me your dogs have never had this issue also, but that would be another assumption. Both you and I most likely do not have blood samples to back our assumptions, but we both should know that a diet consisting or polysaccharides composed of glucose monomers is far more likely to cause this type of reaction.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by mcbosco » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:32 am

brdhntr,

a guy up above compared a meat covered raw bone to a candy bar, that's what you are dealing with.

sal

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Rick Hall » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:59 am

mcbosco wrote:brdhntr,

a guy up above compared a meat covered raw bone to a candy bar, that's what you are dealing with.

sal
Takes a mighty deep thinker to have read that comparison as a nutritional one. But that's the level that's made this thread such an entertaining one.
Last edited by Rick Hall on Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by mcbosco » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:01 am

actually you giving a dog Maltodextrin was the most entertaining, you validated the whole premise of giving dogs better quality food.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Rick Hall » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:03 am

There it is again! Your keen understanding of maltodexrin's application brought a grin. Thanks!
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by brdhntr » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:16 pm

Rick Hall wrote:There it is again! Your keen understanding of maltodexrin's application brought a grin. Thanks!
I would like to be educated on the subject, please share with me the benefits of maltodextrin.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Rick Hall » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:27 pm

brdhntr wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:There it is again! Your keen understanding of maltodexrin's application brought a grin. Thanks!
I would like to be educated on the subject, please share with me the benefits of maltodextrin.
Here's a link that includes a more authoritative explanation than mine, beginning about half way down the page: http://www.purinaproclub.com/sportingdo ... shment.htm

In a nutshell, however, dogs that work hard enough, long enough will use up their other energy stores and dip into their blood glycogen supplies and deplete them faster than they are naturally replaced if the dog maintains that work rate. That's a non-issue for well conditioned and fed two-or-three-day-a-week gun dogs. (Much less those mostly hunted here on the Internet.) But when dogs are worked hard for days on end, as on a week or two long hunting vacation or in commercial use, it can be useful to speed their blood glycogen's normally too-slow-for-days-on-end-usage replacement rate. And research has found that dogs fed maltodextrin within 30 minutes after exercise[/url] achieve essentially complete glycogen replenishment within 24 hours, as opposed to 65% given their normal feeding alone.

It's not some energy booster for dogs facing a hard trot around a show ring or a morning on the local preserve. And it's not a substitute for sound diet.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by brdhntr » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:16 pm

My guess is the test they did was based on dogs fed pro plan. They probabally do replace their glycogen faster in dogs they are conditioned to that type of diet.

Glycogen is stored in the muscles and liver, and is basically a fixed amount. Pretty much all dogs will run out in about the same amount of time regardless of conditioning. This is what runner call hitting the wall. At this point the body changes over to breaking down energy in the form of fat. When this happens we call it getting our second wind. What helps a dog the most is to be efficient at burning fat, and to transition over rapidly when glycogen is depleted. All calories they take in are eventually turned into glycogen,or stored as fat. When a dog is fed a diet high in fat and protein, it becomes more efficient at digesting them.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:08 pm

brdhntr wrote:My guess is the test they did was based on dogs fed pro plan. They probabally do replace their glycogen faster in dogs they are conditioned to that type of diet.
This has been duplicated by many labs and I don't believe the diet of the dog makes any difference as it is strictly to help the dog recover quickly. The real question is does the dog need it. Like Rick says it would only be beneficial to a dog that is running hard for several hours. Many marathon runners are doing the same thing and supposedly it helps them make a quick recovery also.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:32 pm

45 years ( 10 year hiatus), of breeding dogs ( beagles, Jack Russells, setters)

Never had a dog die from cancer or bloat. All died from "old age", accidents. two stolen
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by brdhntr » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:34 pm

I don't know how you could possibly say diet makes no difference, and actually believe it. You are beginning to sound like a Purina propagandist. If what you feed them isn't relevant, then not feeding them at all should yield the same results, and giving maltodextrin shouldn't have any effect either. For you to sit there and tell me there are no variables in the experiment other than maltodextrin is just silly.

Regardless, I still maintain that a dog conditioned to burn fat efficiently will have more hunting stamina than a dog that relies on glycogen from reserves, and can not transition to burning fat. Any dog hunted for more than a few hours will run out of glycogen from muscle and liver reserves.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Rick Hall » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:46 pm

brdhntr wrote:My guess is the test they did was based on dogs fed pro plan. They probabally do replace their glycogen faster in dogs they are conditioned to that type of diet.

...What helps a dog the most is to be efficient at burning fat, and to transition over rapidly when glycogen is depleted. All calories they take in are eventually turned into glycogen,or stored as fat. When a dog is fed a diet high in fat and protein, it becomes more efficient at digesting them.
I couldn't say what was fed when the referenced numbers were determined, but it's my understanding that there has been more than one study on the subject, and I've also seen 45% 24 hour natural replenishment vs 85% with maltodextrin quoted. But since I understand that sled-doggers take advantage of it, I gather they find benefit above that offered by their heavy-on-the-raw feeding practices.

Would also hope no one who's been paying attention thinks my use of maltodexrin bespeaks a lack of faith in fat as a primary, first-line energy source- and more. Or as my friend Bosco seems to think, that I believe maltodextrin replaces, rather than compliments, sound diet.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by mcbosco » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:39 pm

I never thought of it as a replacement, rather a supplement as you indicated. Are there any whole foods that would do the same thing? Sincere question.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Ron R » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:17 pm

Tommy, I'm going to give it a try with this real nice pup I have off of TIn Soldier. I didn't melt it I just mushed a couple tbs into his food. This dog needs about 7 lbs put on him. I'm not going to feed raw or do anything that will make him turn his nose up at the fine kibble that I feed.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Rick Hall » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:26 pm

mcbosco wrote:Are there any whole foods that would do the same thing? Sincere question.
Probably not as well, as I wouldn't think them as quickly digestible, perhaps resulting in less than optimal timing. But that's just some guy on the Internet speculating.

Do know with certainty that a PhD trained, board certified canine nutritionist said:
To optimize glycogen repletion it is very important to administer the right form of carbohydrates. Glucose polymers appear to be the safest and most effective form available. This type of carbohydrate is rapidly digested and absorbed but does not usually cause stomach upset, diarrhea or large increases in circulating insulin. We have found that giving 1.5 grams of maltodextrin per kilogram of body weight is very effective in achieving complete repletion within 24 hours of an exhaustive bout of exercise.
and that was enough for this country boy to give it a go, and the results I saw were convincing.
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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Ron R » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:00 pm

Ron R wrote:Tommy, I'm going to give it a try with this real nice pup I have off of TIn Soldier. I didn't melt it I just mushed a couple tbs into his food. This dog needs about 7 lbs put on him. I'm not going to feed raw or do anything that will make him turn his nose up at the fine kibble that I feed.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by slistoe » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Rick Hall wrote:
mcbosco wrote:brdhntr,

a guy up above compared a meat covered raw bone to a candy bar, that's what you are dealing with.

sal
Takes a mighty deep thinker to have read that comparison as a nutritional one. But that's the level that's made this thread such an entertaining one.
Even after I 'splained it to 'im.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:23 pm

brdhntr wrote:I don't know how you could possibly say diet makes no difference, and actually believe it. You are beginning to sound like a Purina propagandist. If what you feed them isn't relevant, then not feeding them at all should yield the same results, and giving maltodextrin shouldn't have any effect either. For you to sit there and tell me there are no variables in the experiment other than maltodextrin is just silly.

Regardless, I still maintain that a dog conditioned to burn fat efficiently will have more hunting stamina than a dog that relies on glycogen from reserves, and can not transition to burning fat. Any dog hunted for more than a few hours will run out of glycogen from muscle and liver reserves.

I guess I didn't make it clear but all I said was that the dogs they were testing were being fed different feeds and it didn't seem to make a difference. It will really help if you guys can just find it possible to accept what we are trying to explain or at least listen and learn. These are not theories but are based on actual results of the research being done.

And it isn't all here in the stupid ag community where we know nothing about pets and feed our livestock poorly. But I will admit we do feed as cheaply as possible which sounds like common sense to me.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:46 pm

Ron I think you may be pleasantly surprised and pleased with the results. It worked for me but that is just me I am not guranteeing anything. It took a couple of weeks of feeding it everyday before I really noticed a weight gain and a healthier look. I hope it works for you as well as it did me so I won't look like a liar or a crackpot. :)

Just wanted to include Ron the reason I melted it was to keep the dogs from just picking out the food coated with the lard, they had to eat their food as well.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by Ron R » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:38 am

Tommy, if I have to melt it I think I will just suck it up in a syringe and shoot it down his throat. You just gave me a good idea, I'm going to do that anyway, morning and night like I was nursing a sick puppy. If you like, I'll keep you posted on his progress.

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Re: For hard to keep dogs.

Post by tommyboy72 » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:07 am

Sure sounds good.

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