Penn Hip/OFA Experts

[MOOSE]

Alright I had one of our dogs go in today to have her Penn Hip X-rays done. For those of you with more knowledge of this than I (this is my first dog to do this on) what do you all think of the x-rays?

[nanney1]

I'm no expert, but those look good.

[MOOSE]

I will let you know what the resluts read as soon as I get them back. We have decided to do just Penn Hip on our guys now. After reading about them both more. Not that OFA is bad I think I just prefer Penn Hip. I thought they looked pretty good too but I have never had them done before. This is on our female American Pitbull Terrier. Next one to get it done will be my female GSP in a year or so.

[ezzy333]

I am no way an expert but I was a little concerned about the first x-ray thinking the sockets appeared to be a little shallow. I am anxious to see what they grade. Sure thought the quality of the x-rays were excellent.

Ezzy

[phermes1]

I will let you know what the resluts read as soon as I get them back. We have decided to do just Penn Hip on our guys now. After reading about them both more. Not that OFA is bad I think I just prefer Penn Hip. I thought they looked pretty good too but I have never had them done before. This is on our female American Pitbull Terrier. Next one to get it done will be my female GSP in a year or so.

Just keep a copy of the films. One of the Penn Hip poses is the same pose that OFA uses, so you could save yourself another x-ray if you hang onto them.

[kninebirddog]

The standard OFA pose in picture number 2 the right side of the picture looks decent the left is shallow and the ball of the joint not round like I would like to see

the bottom picture again the left side shows more laxity then the right side for OFA purposes I would say a fair to good for PENN hip it will be interesting to see how they rate...
Only reason I stick with OFA is a person can see how lines potentially carry forward when information is made public...None are ee are no guarantees as to what the dog will pass on to pups at least you are showing that your evaluating your stock

[MOOSE]

This mainly goes to the last few people who have posted. Those of you who seem to know what you are looking at in these x-rays would you use this dog for breeding stock or not? I know this females full brother scored out in Penn hip at a .43/45 and at first I thought that was good but then reading through the Penn Hip site I am not so sure I am happy about that score for her full brother. Now her full brother is still with the breeder and he is happy with it. So I am mixed on my feelings. Is the score like that ok as long as there is no evident DJD problems? I am only wanting to produce the best and if this would only score out at a FAIR for OFA I will not breed her. I am only going to do a GOOD or EXCELLENT.

Thanks for the feedback!

[slistoe]

Send the first x-ray to OFA and with the form and fee and they will tell you if it is Fair or not. Doesn't look like excellent to me. A 43rd percentile is not a very good rating from Penn-Hip, if that is what .43 means.

[MOOSE]

Well she isn't 2 yet so I don't know if they would except this x-ray. She will be 2 on October 24th. So I don't see it changing a whole lot in a month.

Here is how Penn Hip Explains their ratings. Each hip is rated individually.

Greater than or equel to .30 - at risk for developing osteoarthritis (DJD). The larger the # (closer to 1) the greater the risk.

Less than .30-almost no risk for DJD development. Essentially unsusceptible.

What I did as well is look through some of the TOP breeders in the APBT breed and here are some numbers I found for Penn Hip:

.52/.43
.64/.45
.45/.47
.42/.54
.31/.32
.43/.37
.45/.45
.52/.55
.67/.67

Now to me The only dog just looking at those numbers I would want in my program would be the .31/.31 but from these being some of the TOP breeders in the country maybe the numbers of .45 or so are what is average right now for the breed.

I just am going to have to make that judgement call I guess when I get the numbers. It is going to be a long 2 weeks. I think I am going to show these to my normal vet too and see what he thinks and see what he feels OFA would put them at.

[Fireside]

I have never done Penn hip so I won't comment on that, but for pretty much the reasons the KNine and Ezzy mentioned, I would be surprised if you got a good. I would more likely suspect they will be rated as fair. At fair, the the decision to breed would (for me) hinge on the hips of the parents, grandparents and siblings. If they all had good hips and she had other attributes that ourweighed the hips, I might consider breeding, if not, then she will still make a great companion and will likely have no serious hip problems in the lifetime.

[kninebirddog]

as for good or excellent being the only thing to breed to ...i have purchased two pups over the years from ofa excellent parents that the pups were were extremely displastic I have seen mild and border line dogs who at 10 years old still show no signs of anything wrong with the hips.

As for the rating it isn't something I would be excited about

But with the way PENN hip and how it has been explained if you should elect to breed this dog theoretically you should bred closet to a .10 as you can....I would be real interested to see what OFA would rate it

As I said before the hip n the one side doesn't look bad the hip on the left is the one I do not care for ...with a sibling that is weak both sides the dog better have something exceptional you wish to carry on ..Another thing about PENN hip as more and more dogs are done the percentile rating will fluctuate and after time it should start to rate more the true picture of how many dogs rate at different levels with in the breed

You need to research your breed a bit more as to how the PENN hip fully rates and works for them...and remember no matter what we do we are not Gods so there are somethings which we will never be able to make perfect

[MOOSE]

Well I do know her parents Penn Hip scores are:

Sire: .52/.55
Dam: .67/.67

I am pretty disturbed by the dam especially. I was unaware of these scores until today. Like I said this mating produced this female in question along with her brother who has his penn hips back at the .43/.45 rating. So I guess at least for the one dog they produced it is getting better.

I understand an excellent rating bred to excellent isn't going to gaurantee anything. But I am not wanting to breed something I know is fair and take the risk. Especially if her Penn Hip comes back high as well. Now I have to make the decision if she is at the .45/.45 range if that is good enough as it looks like after looking at other APBT that a .45 is a good rating comparitivly.

This female is an impecable show dog(has her UKC Grand Champion wich they are not an AKC breed), has also been CGC, TT, and TDI'd, has her United Weight Pull Title and her United Senior Jumper title. So in this breed she has many more titles and marrets to her than most dogs out there. So the quality isn't the issue. But I want to only breed tobetter the breed so if her hip scores are not great but the rest of her is is it still bettering the breed?

So much to consider!

[Fireside]

Life seldom gives us clear-cut, easy answers. Wait for the ratings to come in and make the answer that you feel is the right one. You know what she has to offer, only you can make the decision...

[MOOSE]

Here is further info on her bloodlines and hips

All on dams side:

Grandmother: .67/.67
Grandfather: .32/.32-OFA GOOD
Uncle: .47/.50
Great Grandmother: OFA GOOD

The Uncle produced an:
OFA Good
Penn hip: .58/.54 and a Penn Hip .55/.64

I have not been able to locate much on the sire side yet. Still looking. So things seem pretty consistent but not necisarilly getting better which hips should be part of that goal too.

[kninebirddog]

I have no problem with Fair I would much rather have a fair with a good back ground then an excellent with a poor back ground.
But neither here nor there..I personally think the word Fair was a very poor choice of wording on OFA behalf


Here is something to try and determine how did the dogs move in their older age

My ole Mikey dog who was extremely dysplastic wasn't until he was 7 before i had to have Femoral Head Ostectomies done on him. My ole Blazer dog who is over 9 years old he still runs strong in Trials and shows absolutely no signs that his one hip is questionable and never has had a problem. After going back and forth on it all if I a passing and the dog displays all the desired traits I want in my program I will use the dog...I have culled plenty of dogs from my program but hips that do not pass lack of field desire are the top two things that get passed on in my program...then bad/aggressive attitudes and on down the list

I do have to say even with the limited info I wouldn't except a dog that for the brittany breed that was a .40 or higher for my program and even then would still seek an OFA rating just because it is the program that a person can see more readily the history of dogs done in the said dogs back ground

anyways thanks for posting the pictures would love to see more PENN hip x rays posted it is great to be able to compare and learn

[MOOSE]

Thanks Howie. I didn't see on Penn Hip's website where it says they suggest only breeding dogs who are in the 60th percentile or higher. I do understand how what numbers make it to theat 60th % will change over time as more dogs are evaluated. I may just call Penn Hip and ask them about it. As I do understand it veries by breed. I just want to make sure I am making the best decision on my breeding stock in the long run.

[kninebirddog]

That is one of my issues with PENN HIP if a bulk of the dogs are being done because they do not pass OFA then your percentile is going to have what I would consider way below average...and FYI I do know a good amount of dogs being PENN hipped because they failed OFA or will not pass OFA but these dogs are hard running hard pointing dogs being run in trials So it just stands to reason the Percentiles standards are being lowered by these dogs
I again would LOVE to see more Penn hip x rays like this ...what I see here confirmed a few things for me from the x rays I have in my little library of OFA hip pics ....

and when I last looked at the PENN hip site even there there was a strong reference point of .30 or less in the examples they were using and that .5 and higher was not where you wanted to be...higher the number the more chances you have of basically arthritis setting in causing the dog long term issues

PENN HIP does open the door for those dogs which would be Mild or Borderline to be looked at as potential dogs to be bred to as they become a percentile ...Look at the BUll dog over 90 percent of the bull dogs are OFA dysplastic so I would why would I look at percentile of how many dogs are at a level versus the number rating of each hip and look to the lower number which is explained in the penn hip website opposed to saying well XX percent of the dogs done fell in to a substandard rating

[MOOSE]

I hope you got her permission to post her phone number! lol

I went on penn hips website and the only way of contact is through email. So I sent them an email with some questions.

Here is what is interesting.

The brother to the dog I have is the .45/.47 dog and he is in the 90th Percentile meaning only 10% of APBT who are tested score better than him and the rest are below or the same as him.

The sire to my female who is .52/.55 is in the 80th percentile

But yet with GSP's to get in a good percentile I would need a much better score of say a .30 or so or better.

So to me I wonder does this mean the quality of dogs in the APBT breed that are being Penn Hipped are not good examples of good hips or are there fewer APBT who do Penn Hip? Of all the dogs I looked at they were all at the WELL KNOWN breeders and the ones who are to be considered reputable in this breed there were only 4 or 5 dogs total who had the .30 type scores. The rest were around .45 or .60

I will end up starting a discussion of sorts on this on the APBT forum as well. But I want the person I co-own my female with to know my thoughts before posting so they are not surprised.

I am also going to set up a time to see my regular vet on Friday and have him go over the x-rays with me as well. I will let you guys know what he says.

[MOOSE]

I just wanted to update you on the scores.

The hips shown in the x-rays scored out at left .55 and right .50. This puts her in the 50th percentile. Not as good as I was wanting but still is pretty good for the American Pitbull Terrier breed. Average is .55 so she is right at that.

We are getting our GSP done next week Monday and I will post her x-rays also for you all to view.