Switched food while Exceed was not available; Observations

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:00 am

My local Sam's Club was out of Exceed Chicken and Rice for a couple of weeks so I was in a pinch and ran to the grocery store and bought a bag of Purina One Chicken and Rice.

It was amazing how much less waste I had to pick up in the back yard.

I just switched them back to Exceed at the beginning of the week and the waste has increased dramatically.

After this, I may call it quits with Exceed.

Edit: Oh yea, they also kicked up the price of Exceed from $25-$29 at my club.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:52 am

I fed the Exeed Lamb and Rice. It was great for small clean up. I've switchted to Native Level 2. The dogs are doing great, but there is more clean up.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:18 am

At the end of May we switched our GSP from Exceed to Innova EVO because despite being up to 4 cups/day on Exceed, he was losing weight.

On the 2 1/2 cups of EVO/day he's gained enough weight so that he no longer looks like a stray from the Third World. His waste is way down as well.

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:59 am

EVO is 42% protein isn't it?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:08 pm

Evo is a dense chow, but worth it and it costs only marginally more than the cheap stuff

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:05 pm

mcbosco wrote:Evo is a dense chow, but worth it and it costs only marginally more than the cheap stuff

Whats the price? Exceed is 29 per 44 lbs i believe.

When sams ran out I bought some pro plan performance 30/20 .....45 bucks for 35lbs :roll: it turned my dogs inside out for the first couple days but now they
are adjusting to it....still have one with soft serve

Must taste good tho cause they scarf it up.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:28 am

GSPVIZ wrote:EVO is 42% protein isn't it?

If memory serves it's 42% - 43% protein. I also like the fact that the carbs don't come from grains.

Since he's actually getting less EVO than he was of Exceed, it works out to be equal or less expensive per feeding. mcbosco worked it out here: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 65#p180265

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:13 pm

SubMariner wrote:
GSPVIZ wrote:EVO is 42% protein isn't it?
If memory serves it's 42% - 43% protein. I also like the fact that the carbs don't come from grains.

Since he's actually getting less EVO than he was of Exceed, it works out to be equal or less expensive per feeding. mcbosco worked it out here: http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 65#p180265

Think you better recheck that cost per day. And where are you getting the carbs from that aren't from grain?

Evo is a good feed but it isn't cheap and you don't save money feeding it. Other things you may like but cheap isn't one of its atributes.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:31 pm

Ezzy, he is getting the info from the bag. Potatoes supply the carbs not grains. As for the cost per day, it is correct assuming he feeds 2.5 cups rather than 4 cup of Diamond. There are 104 cups in the bag and a bag costs about $55.

You and a few others don't believe you can feed less of a better food and mitigate the higher cost per pound.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:33 pm

mcbosco wrote:Ezzy, he is getting the info from the bag. Potatoes supply the carbs not grains. As for the cost per day, it is correct assuming he feeds 2.5 cups rather than 4 cup of Diamond. There are 104 cups in the bag and a bag costs about $55.

You and a few others don't believe you can feed less of a better food and mitigate the higher cost per pound.

Gee, didn't know you were qualified to make that statement. Guess I will have to check more often to see what I believe. Potatoes would do it, I agree. Wonder why they would be better than the starch from a wheat kernel or a kernel of corn? I knbow they are different but just need you to tell us why potato is better. I believe he was feeding Exceed and not Diamond but then maybe I am wrong. Really wouldn't matter though as they are both just regular feed and not in that better classification. Is that what I believe or not? Gee I get confused!!!!!!!! What would you charge to tell us all what we believe? And could you work in a few nutritionist that are confused also and a whole bunch of owners, handlers, and other people who are just as confused. Will seem strange going into the feed store and only finding the "better feeds"after we all get our beliefs straigten out. Wonder what they will do with the thousands of tons of the lower class feed they are making everyday and all of those people out of work.

It sure is a slow day isn't it? Guess I better go get the dogs fed while I am still able and remember where they are. Lets see, I feed a cup of Diamond to Time so I will have to cut her back to 2/5th of a cup of the good stuff. Just bet she will be even hungrier then. And Rush will get 5 pellets? It comes in pellets doesn't it?

:roll:

(confused and didn't know which to use)

Have a good day,

Ezzy

Maverick57 · Post by **Maverick57** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:59 pm

We here in New Mexico are still out of Exceed so I swithched back to Diamond performace 30-20 I have 4 that are on it and all are doing well but my Weim cross, she is now on a semi raw diet -Venison and nutro adult so fsr olny thing that does not give her the scours.

Hope they get the stuff back on the shelves soon !

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:15 pm

mcbosco wrote:Ezzy, he is getting the info from the bag. Potatoes supply the carbs not grains. As for the cost per day, it is correct assuming he feeds 2.5 cups rather than 4 cup of Diamond. There are 104 cups in the bag and a bag costs about $55.

You and a few others don't believe you can feed less of a better food and mitigate the higher cost per pound.

2.5 cups a day is about what I am feeding of Sortmix. I watch my dogs and at times I will give a little more and sometimes a little less. They do well on it and I am paying $18.50 per 50 lbs. I just do not believe I could get the same results cheaper.

Charlie

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:04 pm

birddogger wrote:
mcbosco wrote:Ezzy, he is getting the info from the bag. Potatoes supply the carbs not grains. As for the cost per day, it is correct assuming he feeds 2.5 cups rather than 4 cup of Diamond. There are 104 cups in the bag and a bag costs about $55.

You and a few others don't believe you can feed less of a better food and mitigate the higher cost per pound.
2.5 cups a day is about what I am feeding of Sortmix. I watch my dogs and at times I will give a little more and sometimes a little less. They do well on it and I am paying $18.50 per 50 lbs. I just do not believe I could get the same results cheaper.

Charlie

Charlie, Many years ago I fed Ol'Roy Hi-Pro, but when I switched to Diamond Premium, there were fewer stools, and I did not pay 50% more even thought the Diamond lasted 50% longer. The point is that you reach a point of diminishing return quickly with most feeds.

BTW, I live about 80-90 miles from you. Are you one of those who does NSTRA from there?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:21 pm

Steve,yea, I saw we were not too far apart. I have always been a hunter and never got involved with any type of field trials. However, I am entering some NSTRA trials this year. You are right, this is a big NSTRA area.

Charlie

kumate · Post by **kumate** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:56 pm

Geez, Ezzy lighten up. Sub just stated he liked the fact of not having the carbs in food come from grains. You replied and just what source is it if it werent grains. Bosco stated Potatoes which is correct and in this instance the feeding less of it works out $$$ wise. Whats the prob with that as youve said before if you like it and it works then thats the feed for you. To go into a debate over which carb source is better would probably end in you closing the thread, which wouldnt be fair with you being a active participent

Jerry

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:26 pm

kumate wrote:Geez, Ezzy lighten up. Sub just stated he liked the fact of not having the carbs in food come from grains. You replied and just what source is it if it werent grains. Bosco stated Potatoes which is correct and in this instance the feeding less of it works out $$$ wise. Whats the prob with that as youve said before if you like it and it works then thats the feed for you. To go into a debate over which carb source is better would probably end in you closing the thread, which wouldnt be fair with you being a active participent

Jerry

Jerry go back and read please. I asked Sub a question about carb source and guess who answered for him. And I agreed that potato was ok but wondered why he thought that was better than grain? Either in my book will work interchangeably under most circumstances. I did write rather sarcastically though about Mcbosco telling me what I and many of us old fogies think because I didn't know he was qualifies to tell us what we think. And to tell you the truth he wasn't even close to what I was really thinking.

Now if a light hearted but sarcastic reply indicates in some way that I need to lighten up I am in trouble because I can't get much lighter. And I don't think there is anythig being said that is even close to causing this thread to being locked down. But your point is well taken about me having to lock something because of something I said. That just doesn't work out well. But it has caused me not to post sometimes when I want to just for that reason.

Now seriously, I still think someone better go back and check their weight and figures because you can't feed Evo cheaper than you can Exceed. I agree it will be closer than it looks at first but it just won't work out that way. As I tried to point out Mcbosco even got the wrong feed but I am feeding Diamond, not Sub, and I feed the dogs for about .30 cents a day or less and that means I could only feed a few tablespoons of Evo per day if I am going to get by cheaper. You just don't use a feed that has more expensive ingredients, a higher manufacturing and transportation cost, and limited distribution and get by costing less to feed your dog. Just doesn't work that way in the real world. It may be good but it just isn't cheaper.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:44 am

Actually, I thought it was a very good question. Why are carbs from potatoes better than carbs from grains?

claybuster_aa · Post by **claybuster_aa** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:21 am

slistoe wrote:Actually, I thought it was a very good question. Why are carbs from potatoes better than carbs from grains?

IMO they are not better and one has gained zero ground. Potato also acts like a fiber. A fiber swap from grains to something that acts just like the fiber has done nothing to improve the ration. That is why when I see the words "grain-free" diet, I think fad diet and nothing more than marketing gimmick.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:16 am

chuckling- ezzy has it and still some won't understand he might just know what he's talking about

I'm trying to put a couple lbs on my male- it's working- I'm feeding Diamond Hi Energy 24/20 -1&1/2 cups morning and evening- same for the pups together- female I'm down to 1 cup morning and evening- reason- feed them together for the time being

I bought 500 lbs at $18.50 per 50lb bag- try and beat that for some of you who think we don't know

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:22 am

you guys have a short memory, Ezzy equated bloat to colic and then locked the forum when he was caught with his pants down.....

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:28 am

In case you don't know, colic in a horse is simular, but in most aniamals it is just plain old bloat which is nothing more than gas that the animal can't get rid of from one end or the other. However I never mentioned that it was colic as someone else said it was, and they were basically right. Someone also said I was wrong when I mentioned puncturing the stomach as a treatment, but I never said that either. I did and still do advocate puncture as the last resort in emergency treatment to save an animals life.

Mcbosco, I haven't misled you on a single thing yet about animal nutrition. There is a lot I don't know but I am willing to listen and learn. But it makes it hard when someone just can't accept that all of the knowledge that has been gained through education and experience over many many years by people throughout the civilized world just might be right. And then on top of that they refuse to look at the thousands of dogs today that are fed the kibble type diets that are far and away the healthiest dogs we have ever had and you continually try to down grade them and the companies involved it just says to all of us that we aren't getting the real facts. The diet you feed is fine if that is what you want to feed and I don't think a single person has told you otherwise. But you can't show us a single factor that says it is better, that the dogs are healthier, or that you are better qualified to know what is nutritionally required by our dogs than all of the nutritionist and universities.

I sure don't remember getting caught with my pants down. May not have had any on but I don't think down.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:38 am

mcbosco wrote:you guys have a short memory, Ezzy equated bloat to colic and then locked the forum when he was caught with his pants down.....

That is funny. mcbosco thinks Ezzy had his pants down.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:45 am

If Ezzy was caught with his pants down, I'm glad he locked the thread. Not something I would want to see.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:45 pm

Well, after reading page after page of this academic vs. practical discussion reading food..Ezzy..I don't care what your wearing, all I can do is quote Rudyard Kipling.."Your a better man than I am Gunga Din" !!

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:55 pm

Mcbosco- I think ezzy locked that thread because you were on a mission

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:29 pm

No, he was on a pulpit.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:41 pm

slistoe wrote:No, he was on a pulpit.

well put- seems to me ezzy is awfully soft hearted- well- a good grip on common sense and composure may be a better way of putting it

I'd like to see mcbosco his dog and his special food that makes his dog go so good spend a day in an upland field with his Britt's-

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:52 am

kumate wrote:Geez, Ezzy lighten up. Sub just stated he liked the fact of not having the carbs in food come from grains. You replied and just what source is it if it werent grains. Bosco stated Potatoes which is correct and in this instance the feeding less of it works out $$$ wise. Whats the prob with that as youve said before if you like it and it works then thats the feed for you. To go into a debate over which carb source is better would probably end in you closing the thread, which wouldnt be fair with you being a active participent

Jerry

Right on!

I don't know why any discussion on nutrition has to turn into a major world war! The person who opened this thread asked about people's experiences switching from Exceed to another food. So I posted mine, including a link to a previous discussion on this subject that outlined the costing.

EVO is denser and more calorie laden per serving than the Exceed. It also has more protein. So instead of 4 cups of Exceed that did nothing for my dog but increase his waste, he's getting 2.5 cups of EVO and is thriving.

Take it as you will.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:00 am

major world war- naaaaaa some know more than others

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:31 am

What special food are you talking about? Now I am confused.

I didn't think a food that has been on the market longer than any food ever discussed on here is that special. As for raw additions, if you think that is special food well I can't help you. Why don't you do this, but a $1.5 container of chicken livers or some beef liver at the supermarket and place two bowls down, one with kibble and one with livers...once your dog picks the bowl with liver try and take the bowl away and then maybe you will see what I am talking about....after that you can argue with the dog that the bag says kibble is 100% complete and balanced and he has it all wrong.

As for my dogs abilities, all he has is basic obedience training and some live bird training..he finds birds, albeit in a different way than other dogs and in a way that doesn't impress the e-collar set. Its actually relaxing and that's what I like. I could turn it up a notch with more training but its not that easy in NJ or when you work 16 hours a day.

Peace

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:55 am

mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:24 pm

twofeathers wrote:mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!

I agree and have made my posts to other people. But the same answers seem to come back from the same people no matter who you ask.

Don't quite understand your problem though of reading 15 or 20 threads. Think it might help if you just don't read the ones you are not interested in. But I too have the same concern of the same thing being said over and over but I just have trouble leaving mis-information unanswered where some new poster would read it and think it was fact.

But your point is well taken and I have tried to ignore a lot and hope we can move on to some gundogs topcs.

Ezzy

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:57 pm

Why don't you do this, but a $1.5 container of chicken livers or some beef liver at the supermarket and place two bowls down, one with kibble and one with livers...once your dog picks the bowl with liver try and take the bowl away and then maybe you will see what I am talking about....after that you can argue with the dog that the bag says kibble is 100% complete and balanced and he has it all wrong.

No offense but how does this prove anything about nutrition? If I set a bowl of cake and ice cream and a bowl of spinach down in front of a kid... guess which one they'll eat? Does that make the cake and ice cream more nutritious?

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:37 pm

, I tried that comparison once before with a candy bar but you can imagine the kind of coverage that got from the religious crowd. If we all followed their MO I would be taking the quote from that snippet out of context and claim that mcbosco said that liver is a 100% complete and balanced source of nutrition. How stupid is that?

But really, when I read that I chuckled thinking someone might actually try it and I haven't met a dog yet that didn't get a bad case of the runs if you overfeed them liver.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:47 pm

slistoe wrote:, I tried that comparison once before with a candy bar but you can imagine the kind of coverage that got from the religious crowd. If we all followed their MO I would be taking the quote from that snippet out of context and claim that mcbosco said that liver is a 100% complete and balanced source of nutrition. How stupid is that?

But really, when I read that I chuckled thinking someone might actually try it and I haven't met a dog yet that didn't get a bad case of the runs if you overfeed them liver.

Liver is not something you want to feed a lot of to any animal except for catfish.

Real hard to get them to eat too much. I sure hope no one tries that experment or they may have bigger problems than they want. I'm sure Sal knows better but there again is an example of some info that could get your dog in trouble if you just accept it on face value.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:11 pm

I think it is impossible to moderate for truth in a post. Everyone has their own idea about what is 'correct". Trying to save posters from bad advice would be a never ending task. I frequent a guns/ammunition forum. It is full of bad advice. Forums can be very dangerous.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:49 am

Organ meat like liver is a must but liver shouldn't exceed 10-15% of the diet and not everyday. I limit Mickey to 1/2 lb per week. I used liver as an example because its the first thing eaten by the dominant member of a pack in a kill. Dogs have an instinctive attraction to liver, stomach, intenstines, spleen, kidneys, heart....for good reason.

Too much liver causes the runs, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:25 am

mcbosco wrote:Organ meat like liver is a must but liver shouldn't exceed 10-15% of the diet and not everyday. I limit Mickey to 1/2 lb per week. I used liver as an example because its the first thing eaten by the dominant member of a pack in a kill. Dogs have an instinctive attraction to liver, stomach, intenstines, spleen, kidneys, heart....for good reason.

Too much liver causes the runs, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

It's true that wild animals eat the internal parts first since that is the predominant way they get the vegetable matter that they need plus they like anything that is filled with blood.

Ezzy

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:17 am

and you want a bird dog to learn to like fresh organs- do you dress your birds in the field or does your dog

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:17 am

is that a serious question?

GSPVIZ · Post by **GSPVIZ** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:28 am

Wow, this was helpful! :roll:

Rick Hall · Post by **Rick Hall** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:10 pm

What was the question?

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:44 pm

mcbosco wrote:is that a serious question?

you believe in feeding yours organs- do you give him the organs from your birds

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:15 pm

twofeathers wrote:mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!

Right on twofeathers.

Mc & Ez... please take your argument elsewhere.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:57 pm

SubMariner wrote:
twofeathers wrote:mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!
Right on twofeathers.

Mc & Ez... please take your argument elsewhere.

Don't have an arguement. I just post like you do and state what is known facts in the nutritional arena of animal husbandry. If we posted elsewhere then you wouldn't be able to take part. I have made 6 posts on this thread and three I believe were about something besides Mcbosco's posts. You have made 4, so we are pretty much involved at the same level.

But like I told Twofeatherson in one of those 6 posts, I agree and have tried to not start anything but I do get carried away trying to correct some bad info that is being posted. Sharon said I can never correct it all and to just let it go as info on the net that no one sould trust anyway. Maybe she is right. Wonder though why the people who are complaining are the ones that are posting and the people who aren't interested, and that seems to be 99% of them, just don't read it. I know that's the way I do. I never read a lot of the threads till I started as a mod and kind of have to read and keep things somewhat accurate even if I am not interested.

Thank you for your concern though and I will try to restrain posting what I know about animal nutrition and dog care since we have a minority that thinks we are all wrong. It's just hard when there is one area that you have studied and worked at for your whole life and then have several say everything you know is all wrong.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:07 pm

"As you may already know, I have been breeding and showing dogs for 48 years (I bred my first Schnauzer Champion in 1950) with great success 950 Giant Schnauzer Champion titles, as of this year. I personally feel that to really, consistently produce top quality animals, selecting and breeding only the best is important, but just as important is to feed your breeding stock correctly. What is the best way to feed your dog? How do you know it's the best? How do you decide what's best for your dogs? I will now tell you my way of feeding and how I came to this point in my life"

Ezzy, why dont you write Sylvia Hammarstrom and explain to her that the AAFCO knows better than nature itself....maybe she will listen to you.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:24 pm

SubMariner wrote:
twofeathers wrote:mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!
Right on twofeathers.

Mc & Ez... please take your argument elsewhere.

I don't mean this to be sarcastic, but nobody is forcing you to read threads you don't like. I just don't see the problem. Somebody has to set the facts straight. There are always new people who are trying to learn and I don't like to see them misled. JMO

Charlie

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:47 pm

birddogger wrote:
SubMariner wrote:
twofeathers wrote:mcbosco and ezzy, maybe you two should PM eachother and quit flaming eachother every time there is an argument, just post your opinion and leave it at that ,why do I want to read 15-20 threads of you two saying the same thing over and over. WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!
Right on twofeathers.

Mc & Ez... please take your argument elsewhere.
I don't mean this to be sarcastic, but nobody is forcing you to read threads you don't like. I just don't see the problem. Somebody has to set the facts straight. There are always new people who are trying to learn and I don't like to see them misled. JMO

Charlie

well said Charlie- seems a couple can't just ignore and and want to drop a bomb- they just don't get it- don't read and look for something to coment on where you actually know something
oh- and who is he to say take it elsewhere

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:11 pm

My apologies, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I did not intend on those with knowledge to stifle themselves for sake of argument. I am here to learn and with that, on any type of forum, one should have his or her own BS filter.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:19 pm

twofeathers wrote:My apologies, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I did not intend on those with knowledge to stifle themselves for sake of argument. I am here to learn and with that, on any type of forum, one should have his or her own BS filter.

You are ok. I get frustrated too when someone tries to dominate a thread thatI am interested in and am trying to learn from it. Stay cool.

Ezzy