Any Way to tell if Bitch had pups?

dogman1965 · Post by **dogman1965** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:34 pm

I know the subject sounds stupid, but I had my bitch with a trainer for the summer and when she came back her teets were hanging lower than normal and she looked fat and out of shape. Is there any way to tell if she was bred while she was gone?

vzkennels · Post by **vzkennels** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:59 pm

Your vet should be able to tell you & if she did well the trainer would have a BIG PROBLEM.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:00 pm

I thought I'd heard everything. If that did happen he is one low life. Maybe it's the same trainer i sent my dog to. She came home 6 pounds heavier. :roll:

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:20 pm

How long was she with the trainer and when is her normal heat cycle? This would help tell you if there was enough time to be bred and have a litter.

dogman1965 · Post by **dogman1965** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:25 pm

She was with the trainer for 5 months. She went into heat in early June and I picked her up in late Sept. She had plenty of time to whelp a litter and be somewhat recovered by the time I picked her up.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:11 am

Probably going through a false pregnancy. If she was in heat in June, she would not have whelped til August and the pups would only be 4 weeks old by Sept. She would have been VERY THIN and those teats would have had the look of having been through the wars! Plus the pups would just be starting to wean at pick up time.
Having enlarged mammary glands and having put on a few pounds screams false pregnancy.
But when in doubt COMMUNICATE your fears and questions with your trainer, don't just assume the worst.

dogman1965 · Post by **dogman1965** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:26 am

@Kiki's Mom - You are assuming that the trainer let the pups live.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:31 am

@Kiki's Mom - You are assuming that the trainer let the pups live.

Well I guess he wouldn't be able to do much with them so that's a possibility. I take it you don't have any progress pictures during the time frame?

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:26 am

Hmmmm......I guess that coud be a possibility I guess. Somehow I suppose I prefer to think that this "trainer" is a professional who has a reputation and a business he would like to uphold and keep running in order to keep the paychecks coming in.

Did you not have opportunity to visit your dog in the entire 5 months she was in training? If not, did you call and check up on her or get reports/updates or emails as to her progress? What made you chose this trainer in the first place and how did you check out his references? Did you ever see how your girl was kenneled during her stay?

Why, just now in November are you questioning whether your dog could have whelped a litter when you picked your dog up in late Sept???? You should have addressed her condition at the time you picked her up if you suspected a problem. If he did cull the entire litter at birth then the 4-6 weeks between birth and pick up is plenty of time to have nipples retracted, milk dried and have her rock hard and in good shape again....not just pudgy with enlarged nipples.

Which circles me back to my earlier statement. Your questions need to be posed to your "trainer" first .......comunication. communication, communication.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:12 am

Kiki's Mom wrote:Having enlarged mammary glands and having put on a few pounds screams false pregnancy.

I would be willing to bet this is the reason why. My setter came home from the trainer the same way. She had the enlarged glands. I research her days there, and found the timing was right...for a false pregnancy...6-8 weeks after her heat cycle stopped.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:38 am

Which circles me back to my earlier statement. Your questions need to be posed to your "trainer" first .......comunication. communication, communication

I understand the question but can't quite figure out what or why the question here on the board. Easiest way to find out is ask the trainer. And if she did what are you planning to do about it? Is it something that makes a big difference now a month or two later. I guess I too woud like to know but I also am sure I would have known if she did. And if I felt I couldn't trust the trainer she would have been brought home or never sent in the first place.

I don't mean this to sound harsh but am lost as to the why and wherefore of the question at this time and at this place. Fill us in.

Ezzy

dogman1965 · Post by **dogman1965** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:32 pm

To answer several of the questions.

1. No, I did not have the opportunity to visit while she was at the trainers. She was 1200 miles away.
2. Yes, I talked to the trainer on a weekly basis while she was in training and got a status report every time. But...that was his word.
3. I chose the trainer because he is the BEST in the country.
4. I chose this forum, because I know I am not the only person in the country that has sent a bird dog off to a trainer and wondered about this. Thought maybe someone might know if there is a way to tell after the fact.
5. It makes a difference now, because I had planned to breed her sometime in the next year and do not want to if she just had a litter. I do not believe in breeding a dog more often than every 3 heat cycles. If she was bred over the summer, then I need to readjust my timing.
6. I understand communication, but if the trainer culled the litter without telling me at the time, do you really think he would tell me the truth now???

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:49 pm

I would like to think that if he is "the best" and has earned that reputation that he would be honest enough to tell you if an accident happened. I'm going with the false pregnancy.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:03 pm

I really think te dog is coming off a false pregnancy, I have seen females squirting milk they are so full...and it is false. I would inquire as to when the dog had a heat cycle.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:01 pm

2. Yes, I talked to the trainer on a weekly basis while she was in training and got a status report every time. But...that was his word.
3. I chose the trainer because he is the BEST in the country.

If you chose the best of the best, why are you suddenly doubting him? In my mind, being in the biz ourselves, I just can't see the "Best" risking his livihood and reputation in the manner you suggest. Perhaps I'm naive.

To specifically answer your questions....I doubt that if the scenario went down as you suggest that you would have known by the physical appearance of your dog...she should have been in better shape. Since you say she arrived home heavier then normal with enlarged nipples, I stil say she is experiencing a false pregnancy. If she had whelped a litter and the pups weren't culled one look at her and you would have known immediately....we would not be having this conversation

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:31 pm

I too would concur that this is probably the remnants of a false pregnancy. I've owned bitches who produced milk, made nests, took all their toys into the closet.... some bitches are very severe.

There is a lot of new thinking on breeding bitches back to back instead of waiting 2 or more cycles. You might want to check out the writings of Dr. Hutchinson on this. Especially with bitches who have recurring false pregnancy's.

Certainly hope we are all right... would hate to think any trainer out there would stoop to something like that. And can't think of any good reason they would.
Fuzz

mm · Post by mm » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:07 am

I am not sure what happened but the false pregnancy sounds like a good theroy. However should the trainer have seen that and reported it to the owner? It he did this there would be less doubt. The guy I send my dogs to moniters everything and calls when ther is a problem. He watches the shots and all health isues.
mm

FLocker · Post by **FLocker** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:38 pm

What would an honest, professional trainer do if there was an unplanned pregnacy of a client's dog while she was with him? Let the client know and ofer to have the pregnancy terminated asap? Or is there another course of action that would be less disruptive and harmful for the bitch?

Bryce · Post by **Bryce** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:47 pm

She probably had a false pregnancy. Whether she was bred over the summer or not, you may never be able to honestly know. If she is in good condition on her next heat cycle and you would like to breed her, go ahead. I've taken companion animal classes in college and it has been said that breeding bitches on back to back heat cycles will not hurt them as long as they are in good health and condition. I've even had vets tell me that the best way to avoid mammary and uterine cancer in brood bitches is to breed them every heat cycle until they drop down to only having 1-3 puppies in a litter, then have them spayed.

Have a talk with your trainer. He may have been embarrased to tell you that your dog got pregnant while with him and took care of the problem himself. Even if she was allowed to go full term and he culled the litter, it really wouldn't have mattered so much, just give the guy a chance to come clean. Though I know we like to think that the most well known trainers in the country are honest, I have heard enough stories and know enough of them to tell you that this is often not the truth. The only way to know is to talk to the guy, but I agree this should have been taken care of back in September when you first got the dog back rather than waiting 2 months.

Again, a false pregnancy is VERY likely. There may be no way to really tell, you could take her to the vet and see what they can tell you. But, DON'T go pointing fingers and accusing your trainer right away unless you can prove she had a litter. Go talk to the guy in a civil manner and present the issue to him.

Bryce Novotny
Laguna Kennels

Gun Dog Forum

Any Way to tell if Bitch had pups?

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