2-year-old Black Labrador with Hair Loss/Itching

moneypit · Post by **moneypit** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:58 pm

We have gone the rounds with our Veterinary Clinic trying to come to a solution for our Black Lab, Abby. Abby began losing hair on her stomach and showed signs of itching approximately 6 months ago. She was put on Prednisone with a suspected allergy to fillers in the food we were feeding her at the time. We switched her a lamb and rice food with no wheat, no rice, no soy high in antioxidants and added Omega Fatty Acids for skin and coat with the hopes of faster, more quality hair growth. When on the courses of Prednisone, her itching appeared to be relieved almost immediately. However, her hair loss continued and once off Prednisone she was itchy again. Her skin scrapes have come back normal as well as her thyroid test...all normal. The hair loss continued onto her outer thighs eventually and she was put on her 2nd course of Prednisone. Again, itching subsided immediately but hair loss spread to chest, near tear ducts and elbows. It's not necessarily bald in all areas, but VERY thin. She is currently on her 3rd course of Prednisone 20mg, 15tabs total dosage of 1/2tab twice daily for 7 days, then 1/2tab once day for 7 days and finally 1/2tab every other day til gone. At this most recent visit, we had Vet check her ears and she did show a yeast infection in one ear so Vet prescribed Otomax 7.5mg for both ears twice daily for 14 days. Other than that, the only thing the vet said is perhaps we need to wean her off the Prednisone more slowly this time. If you have any thoughts, please share...because weaning her off more slowly with no other suggestions is honestly just very frustrating and doesn't make sense to us. She appears to have no discomfort or itching presently while on the Prednisone, but when you rub her belly the hair just falls out with normal petting. Thank you!!!

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:12 pm

Exactly what brand of Lamb Rice are you feeding? Not sure it's food realted but with yeast issues I would highly recommend you check out this web site for NZYMES.com. http://www.nzymes.com/pc/home.asp?a=dog

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:17 pm

I know you said the thyroid test was normal but I would ask if it was low normal. If so, treatment should be started.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:59 am

Do you have pictures?

Calisdad · Post by **Calisdad** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:06 am

She sounds too young to have Cushings but the hair loss pattern fits:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 97&aid=416

Here is a list of other causes you might want to read through:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 11&aid=421

best of luck

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:20 am

You guys are going to all think I am crazy, but be sure it's not flea allergies. I know a BUNCH of people who have had unidentified skin troubles lately, and vet's assumed it could not be that because they were on frontline or biospot regularly. But when given capstar regularly or comfortis to be sure, it cleared up. It only takes one bite to trigger allergies with some dogs and you will probably not see one flea. In fact most people don't realize even when the dog has lots, because fleas do not always bother people. Get a flea comb and comb all the way through really throughly and if you see any at all or lots of little black specks (flea "dirt") consider it an option before everything else. Flea allergies are usually very responsive to prednisone, and food allergies are sort of hit or miss on being responsive to prednisone. At least that's been my limited experience.

That said flea allergies hair loss *usually* starts at the base of the tail or along the spine. but always lots of exceptions.

Best of luck.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:42 am

A few years ago, my old Setter lost all the hair off his rump. The Vet diagnosed flea allergy, we got rid of all the fleas, and in months, the hair grew back. The next year, a similar loss of hair occured and we did lab tests including thyroid. A younger Vet in the clinic ordered them. The T4 was very low normal, and we decided to treat, and the dog's energy imoproved, and his hair came back. Who knows? Maybe a combination of factors?

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:27 pm

Who knows? Maybe a combination of factors?big steve

Yup...sounds like maybe. I'd also be sure there was no corn or beet pulp in the food. I have a client who has a young lab with the very same issues. It ended up being a low grade staph infection combined with mites. 2 sulfur dips, a course of ABx's, weekly chlorhexiderm shampoo baths for a month, a dose of ivermectin orally and a change in diet to exclude all the no no's for allergy prone pups and she is good as new.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:11 am

is the hair loss symmettrical?? and if so, is the dog intact?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:45 am

I was curious about that Doc, we need pictures

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:48 am

If you suspect food allergy I would go the distance and invest in the actual limited anitigen food or the totally novel food diets like Duck and potato for a trial. It is much easier to figure out the allergen by adding things back in than guessing while taking one or two things out. Leaves too much speculation.

Predinisone is by no means the only option and you have already said it helps but not entirely. What about atopica? What about allergy testing? there are many options you have not explored, but I would caution you that some vets will go about this in a more organized rule out fashion and that will lead you to a better answer than any jumping around or guessing.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:04 am

Kiki's Mom wrote:
Yup...sounds like maybe. I'd also be sure there was no corn or beet pulp in the food.

Gee Helen, you just singled out two ingredients that are extremely rare to cause an allergy problem even though you continue to hear them talked about. Allergies to food is rare at best, but 90% of the times they are involved it is the protein sources that are the cause and seldom if ever the carb sources. The problem being discussed here seems very unlikely to be food caused allergy but it does need to be considered till the cause is identified.

Ezzy

moneypit · Post by **moneypit** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:07 pm

diamond brand (red on the bag)

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:05 pm

My vet recently told me that dairy products were the most diagnosed food allergies in the last few years. Alot of the treats have cheese, and powdered milk and such. Don't know, that's just what he said.

My moms dog has a topical allergy to we think dry leaves or something in them. She loses fur on her belly and chest when she lays in them and she LOVES to lay in them and roll. Mom kept a log of when she would start itching and losing fur, when it seemed to be worse. Prednisone cleared up the issue but it would always come back quickly. Now the dog does great and takes atopica which works well. She is down to every 3rd day being enough to keep her happy and well.

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:47 pm

I'm not engaging in this argument with you again Ezzy

. You have your opinions and experiences and and I have mine.

Both have merit and let's leave it at that.
So...if the balding pattern is symetrical and the dog is intact, what's the correlation and thinking, Doc?

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:51 pm

I'm not implying that it's the problem, but I would remind all that there is a difference in allergies and intolerances in humans, and I would assume the same could be true for dogs. With a true allergy, you normally have an antgen-antibody response. With intolerances, you do not, but you have a neurological reaction that can manifest itself in different ways. Standard allergy tests may not detect intolerances.

I think it is important to not over react, keep it simple, but hopefully arrive at a accurate diagnosis. I would assume that Mountaindog Dr would agree.

I agree with Ezzy that corn for example is a good food, especially if it's ground properly so it can be assimilated properly. Digestion and assimilation is the key many times. Again, most dogs do well on most good feeds.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:50 am

Castration Responsive Dermatosis is what I think DogDr is thinking.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:00 am

big steve46 wrote:I'm not implying that it's the problem, but I would remind all that there is a difference in allergies and intolerances in humans, and I would assume the same could be true for dogs. With a true allergy, you normally have an antgen-antibody response. With intolerances, you do not, but you have a neurological reaction that can manifest itself in different ways. Standard allergy tests may not detect intolerances.

I think it is important to not over react, keep it simple, but hopefully arrive at a accurate diagnosis. I would assume that Mountaindog Dr would agree.

I agree with Ezzy that corn for example is a good food, especially if it's ground properly so it can be assimilated properly. Digestion and assimilation is the key many times. Again, most dogs do well on most good feeds.

Well put, I would not call yeast infections in the ear an allergy but a condition brought on by too much carbs in the diet, or poorly processed carbs. Corn is indeed a very efficient source of carbs but it is overused because its cheap, easy to get and easy to manipulate. It is relied upon for things it does not do well. Protein is best left to meat and fat best left to, well, real fat. I would still rather see white rice in dog food for the small amount of carbs required, assuming the protein and fat was up to snuff. I just get bent out of shape when corn products are used for protein.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:09 am

Your shape should be pretty good then since corn is not used for protein but if you are calculating the protein content of a product the total amount from each ingredient has to included. Since corn only runs around 7 to 9 % protein it is hard to think that anyone would think it is being used to increase the protein percentage of a 30% protein feed.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:51 am

" I just get bent out of shape when corn products are used for protein"

Corn Gluten is used often as a source of protein in some high protein foods.

moneypit · Post by **moneypit** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:12 am

Abby's a spayed 2-year old female and per the Vet she found no sign of fleas (nor have we and we do check regularly). We have a follow-up visit with the Vet today at 3:30pm (CST). The Vet at last visit stated that allergy testing could be started but it would run into the thousands so if necessary we will go that route but hoped (and THANK) everyone on GunDog for ALL input and advice!! We'd rather get too many suggestions/possible causes and eliminate each vs blindly forging forward with no direction

Abby's food is Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice (which I see does list beat pulp). We went to a specialty store locally where the owners helped us pick it out with the emphasis on no corn and low/no fillers and extra Omega's for coat quality. Here's the lowdown:

Diamond Naturals Lamb Meal & Rice Adult Dog Formula
•No Soy, No Corn, No Wheat
•Antioxidant Formulation
•Omega Fatty Acids for Skin and Coat
•Crunchy Kibble Helps Clean Teeth and Reduce Plaque
•Natural Formula with Vitamins and Minerals

Lamb protein provides optimal nutrition for dogs that prefer the taste of lamb, or are sensitive to chicken or corn. Guaranteed levels of vitamin E and selenium ensure that your dog receives optimum antioxidant nutrition, while omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids keep the skin and coat healthy and shiny.

INGREDIENTS: Lamb meal, ground rice, cracked pearled barley, millet, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, rice bran, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein 23.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 14.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 4.0% Maximum
Moisture 10.0% Maximum
Zinc 150 mg/kg Minimum
Selenium 0.4 mg/kg Minimum
Vitamin E 150 IU/kg Minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids * 2.2% Minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids * 0.4% Minimum

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:19 am

the allergy testing shouldnt cost near that much. for a full allergy panel (food and environmental) we charge $195, and you get a full print out of all the things the dog responded to (is allergic to) AND a list of every possible food that dog could eat without an allergic reaction. sounds like an allergy to something to me, but i cant explain why the hair keeps falling out. if the pred helps, i wouldnt be afraid to try atopica. i assume she is doing great otherwise: eats and drinks normally, normal energy level, normal stool, etc.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:30 pm

Ditto to everything above, and differ to the greater knowledge.

I had a dog (long tem boarding) with a food allergy years ago and a vet that told me testing was to expensive and to try various treatments and so on. To shorten a very long story - I spent several thousand dollars NOT allergy testing, but trying ineffective treatments. My dog was on and off predinsone for almost 3 years, had constant ear infections, both fungal, and bacterial, and permanant ear damage from chronic infections. I used the otamax and ears were good as long as I used it like a salve over the whole ear daily which made a tube last about 4 days. I don't know what it costs now, but I was paying 12.99 a tube. Basically speding 20-40 a week on meds alone for years. Also I was give lots of omega fatty acid supplements, and bathing with medicated shampoos. And then the vet visits about every 10 days for ever with constant little changes and issues. Then when we finally moved onto a limited antigen diet, it cost a ton more to feed because my active hunting dog could barely hold weight on the very low protein diet, and I had to feen him 4 times a day, and bought a bag a week nearly. At $75 a bag. Finally I found that he did well on a commercial duck and potato food (higher calorie - thank goodness!) and at $50 for a 37.5 lb bag he was able to go off all other medications and did great, holding weight well, and growing his fur back. ear issues went away entirely also, other than the slight deformity from years of draining and swelling.

My point is, you are right to consult your veterinarian, but many vets do not have the patience or desire to deal with skin trouble. It can be so ridiculously difficult to diagnose. Don't hesitate too long to jump in and spend the money to get some real anwers. Hopefully my situation was rare, but if I should have to deal with it a next time, I will not hem and haw so long and and will have the testing done, so my dog and I can get back to normal.

I don't want to scare you with the story. It's a worst case scenerio, type I guess. But still, you can call around and get some price quotes, and maybe even a second opinion on what diagnostics to persue.

Best luck

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:39 pm

big steve46 wrote:I think it is important to not over react, keep it simple, but hopefully arrive at a accurate diagnosis. I would assume that Mountaindog Dr would agree.

mountaindogs is not a Dr.

just a "know it all" Vet emergency and internal medicine tech, that sees some crazy stuff.

Dog Dr, on the other hand IS a Dr. and has a significant amount of education and knowledge I do not. Probably more students loans, and more headaches too.

And yes, I agree with big steve. Be calm, and don't jump around. Just follow through and do the best you can.

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:58 pm

I agree that the allergy testing should not be so much. We spent $185.00 on ours and way more trying the "doing everything but allergy testing" test. We gave his shots at home and the bill for his antigen was very inexpensive considering. I would check around for better pricing.

Carla

moneypit · Post by **moneypit** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:26 pm

ok so we are back from the vet. with abby. her ears are getting better and vet put her on a allergy free dog food for two months. it is called hills prescription diet z/d dog food does anybody know where to get this stuff cheaper than (I hope your sitting down)$ 91.50 a # 27.5 bag? the bag says to give her 3.5 to 6 cups a day for a #60 dog is this right? I normally gave her 3 cups

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:21 pm

OH GOD....S/D??? There are better diets made specifcally for allergy prone dogs. Purina has a prescription diet as do a couple other companies. Wellness is one off the cuff that is NOT prescription BUT does have several formuals with single protein, single carb ingredient lists. Should run around $50-54/33#'s? Another option is to cook or consider a raw or partially diet for awhile.

Your Diamond Naturals *IS* a GREAT food, BTW....even though it has beet pulp. Beet pulp is used as a binder as well as an energy ingredient. Beet pulp is lower on the list for "intolerances" and intolernaces or overload usually shows up as pinkened or stained coat (which you won't see on a dark lab) I have 3 dogs here who are exhibiting signs of too much beet pulp in the diet (and admittedly the dog food I use has told me that the company has been tweaking their formula recently). Their pearly white is suddenly quite pink ... :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:45 pm

Beet pulp is nothing more than dried sugar beets after the sugar has been removed. It is included in dog food because it is a high fiber ingredient and is one of the few fiber ingredients that can be digested by a dog and it's included in the formula since it promotes a healthy intestine.

Its nothing more than a raw vegetable that the dogs like.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:33 pm

Kiki's Mom wrote:....even though it has beet pulp. Beet pulp is used as a binder as well as an energy ingredient. Beet pulp is lower on the list for "intolerances" and intolernaces or overload usually shows up as pinkened or stained coat

Where does stuff like this come from?

Post by **Kiki's Mom** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:13 am

how about experience and direct quote from dog food company in a recent conversation with them

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:27 am

yeah, the Z/D is pretty pricey. thats exactly what we are charging as well. i have lately been trying almost anything other than recommending z/d, just because i am embarrassed to tell people what it costs. Hill's prices have really gone up over the last 2 years or so. if you are interested, i have some recipes for some homemade allergy diets from the U of I. they look like a pain in the neck to me, but definitely cheaper. good luck

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:40 am

Used to work at a center in africa in which we sometimes fed fresh raw beets to primates as part of their diet and their urine and feces would turn red tinged. Scary but the director laughed and said, "oh the beets always dye it like that" and sure enough it went away as soon as we ran out of beets. Interestingly, the feces looked nice and dark black after drying slightly in the sun, hmmm

But it's off the subject, so I digress. But maybe slightly related, would be a quick comment that the black-backed jackals also ate the beets by choice, raw, and enjoyed them every so often. Along with various fruits, whole watermelons, sliced sweet potatoes (white, different variety) and whole chickens.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:51 am

a specialist in my area recommeds this dry for bad cases and he seems to like the results:

http://www.veruspetfoods.com/Pet_Foods.html

Advanced Opticoat, it is not priced like the prescription diets, much less.

naperdog · Post by **naperdog** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:11 pm

we have been having problems with our 1.5 year old lab that sound very similar to yours. WE had been hoping it was just a seasonal allergy, but even with the cold and snow now he has still been bad. not looking forward to the vet trip this afternoon!

Does anyone know if allergies can be hereditary? I wonder if it would be worth contacting our breeder to see if she has seen similar problems within his line? Maybe that could get to the bottom of our woes sooner.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:25 pm

For what it's worth, this is the food that we ended up feeding our boarder, years ago.
http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/prod ... =389&Page=

We had him on this prescription diet before that, during his food trial. http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/Ca ... x?prod=223 check out the analysis! can you imagine trying to keep an active hunting dog on this? Poor guy had to eat ALOT! Felt like we just fed him and fed him and fed him. He never did terribly well on it, I think because the volume of food was just so high. But he grew back fur and his ears cleared up. His coat was always still dry.

Since The Natural Balance already contains canola oil which he tolerated well, and is pretty low fat in and of itself, I added 2 TBS canola oil every day to help him hold weight on it. He improved within about 2 weeks of being on it, even better than the trial diet. Looked great actually. I supplemented him with a venison leg bone or shoulder bone once weekly. Later I tried to switch to the venison rice and his issues came right back. A few months after that he went home to live with his newly divorced owner, who was glad to have company and finally healthy dog.

EDIT: I should also mention that he was on very high levels of fatty acid supplements daily the entire time, except during the food trial. I think I should have purchased stock in fish oil

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:36 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Used to work at a center in africa in which we sometimes fed fresh raw beets to primates as part of their diet and their urine and feces would turn red tinged. Scary but the director laughed and said, "oh the beets always dye it like that" and sure enough it went away as soon as we ran out of beets. Interestingly, the feces looked nice and dark black after drying slightly in the sun, hmmm

But it's off the subject, so I digress. But maybe slightly related, would be a quick comment that the black-backed jackals also ate the beets by choice, raw, and enjoyed them every so often. Along with various fruits, whole watermelons, sliced sweet potatoes (white, different variety) and whole chickens.

You don't need primates to see that. I love beets so I will pee red a few times every harvest season. But unless Kiki's dogs are peeing on themselves or each other.....

I don't believe I have ever fed a food that did not have beet pulp in it. Unless some uneducated food company is playing games with the ration how would a dog get too much beet? Do sugar beets have the same red pigment?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:48 pm

sugar beets are white-yellow and beet pup is gray-ish, if you didn't know what it was you would think it was cardboard

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:37 pm

mcbosco wrote:sugar beets are white-yellow and beet pup is gray-ish, if you didn't know what it was you would think it was cardboard

I have heard people complain about their dogs turning red or pink from beet pulp. Funny to see the look on their faces when you show them what beet pulp really looks like and there is no red coloring in them and it is impossible for the beet pulp to cause that. But they associated it with regular red beets and I have the same results that Slistoe does when I fix Harvard Beets and eat them two or three times a day. It's not a good time to check for blood in your stool.

If you really want to see what beet pulp is get a handful and let it soak in water for several hours till it reconstitutes it normal consistency and you can see it is nothing more than little pieces of vegetable matter that looks like a grated carrot only not as orange. It's an absolutely wonderful cooling type feed that promotes a healthy intestine and digestive tract. We use it in many different animal feeds to help keep the animal on feed during the summer months, to reduce heat and swelling during the birthing periods, and to promote a solid firm stool and a healthy intestine. I have never found a feed test on any animal where it wasn't a positive to the animal receiving it.

naperdog · Post by **naperdog** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:43 pm

we just got a bag of the Hills z/d as well. I really hope this stuff works especially at that cost! We paid $60 for a 18# bag, though we did get at $25 rebate. I just really hope the poor guy gets better soon, he as been sitting next to me while typing this and alternates between scratching himself and whining to go outside .

FOr what its worth our vet's opinion is that most food allergies are protien based.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:54 pm

naperdog wrote: FOr what its worth our vet's opinion is that most food allergies are protien based.

That's what several of us have been trying to tell people. There probably isn't a dog in a thousand that would have an allergy to a grain or vegetable ingredient. Food allergies of any kind are rare and when you figure only 1 in a hundred or so of those are caused by grain you can begin to understand. We have thought food was the culprit but now are finding the majority are probably an allergy to something in the dog's environment.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:02 pm

where does that yellow lab have the rash?

Calisdad · Post by **Calisdad** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:53 am

moneypit wrote:ok so we are back from the vet. with abby. her ears are getting better and vet put her on a allergy free dog food for two months. it is called hills prescription diet z/d dog food does anybody know where to get this stuff cheaper than (I hope your sitting down)$ 91.50 a # 27.5 bag? the bag says to give her 3.5 to 6 cups a day for a #60 dog is this right? I normally gave her 3 cups

It costs so much because they put powdered cellulose in it. I'm sure its the highest grade sawdust they can find tho.

Did your vet establish a diagnosis or is he treating for what he thinks is the most likely cause? I had a vet who insisted my dog had a flea allergy even tho we found none. I took her to another vet who quickly found mange mites. I'm not saying thats your problem as you said he did scrapings but a fresh set of eyes might come to a different conclusion.

best of luck.

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:48 am

Have you figured out what the dog is allergic to yet? Our dog was allergic to chicken and the Z/D "Allergy" food has chicken in it so it was not a fix for us. Hope your dog does better! Ours was a long four year fight with not a happy ending. If you need any information on allergy shots, alternative medicine or anything allergy related just email me.

Carla

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:58 am

I have friends with dogs that have tested positive to proteins like chicken, beef, eggs, etc. Funny thing is they dont react to those proteins when they are fed raw.

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:12 pm

Ours would have a severe reaction if I fed raw or kibble even if it had just chicken fat (which is not supposed to cause a rxn but would). He was on a raw diet for the last year (he ate better than we did) but we really did not see any difference. The vet now thinks it may have been an immune disorder (but can't remember the name of it) that made him so allergic to everything.

Carla

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:37 pm

I don't claim to understand much about allergy testing. We do not offer it as our clinic deals with other areas, not dermatology unless it's endocrine or metobolic in origin, and even then the internal medicine side is not on the shifts I work with much. That said from my own personal experience with my own allergies, I get hyper senstitive after a reaction. If I already have a reaction to poison Ivy, I break out in a large several inch rash from every mosquito bite. Also I have had a few reactions to topical lotions and I get hypersentistive to nearly all detergents and such for a week or so until everything clears up. I have to get extra hypoallergenic, dye and scent free everything. Then I can go back to my normal shampoo and soap with out issues

Has always made me wonder, based on pure speculation, if the allergy testing done in large chuncks like that can at times show false positives due to a similar hypersensitive response. But my vet tells me that contact allergies and food allergies are quite different in that regard so I do not really know, just wonder. He also tells my that the blood test does not work that way, and each test is essentially seperate as far as the blood is concerned (so to speak) SO take what I say with the many grains of salt that it should be.

Still, if I had to go through it again, I think I would do the following.
If the dog is spayed or nuetered, just to be sure of the flea issue, I'd put in on Comfortis. If not or if my dog had a sentsitive stomach I'd give Sentinal, and regular capstar. Have the skins scrapes done, but most vet's do that first, anyway. Make sure my pet is fully dewormed, and free of all parasites internal and external. (I'll ignore another conflicting theory with this for the time being) You wouldn't want to go through all this and then find out that most of it was something else, and you do want your dog to be as healthy as possible to start, I would think. I'd have blood work done and follow up thyroid panels if the vet felt that this was suspect. I'd find a shampoo that the dog does well with that is very mild. I'd clean ears and get on a regular dog wash and ear clean regime. I do this kind of anyway, but I guess I'd get more strict and less slack with it.

I'd Put the dog on a duck and potato or Fish and potato (READ THE INGREDIENT LIST FOR SINGLE PROTIEN AND CARB!!) diet and see if that helped. If not I'd then switch the the veterinary diet and pawn the car

If SO, then I'd keep the dog on that for 6 solid weeks to help her sytem return to normal and help her heal.
Then I slowly add in 1 home cooked ingredient, starting with protein, a week.
For example week 1 add in might be cooked plain venison (I wrap it in foil and bake -- adding nothing)
If that goes well week 2 I will trade the venison for chicken.
Then maybe eggs.
And so on. Every time a reaction occured from adding something in I'd give several weeks to clear with no additives and then move on to the next thing.
Then on to grains. Keeping a list of all the suspects.

This is very times consuming! If time was an issue, I think I would be willing to try the allergy testing to narrow the search, and then use only the positive tests in the food trial add ins, to see if each causes a problem alone.

That is my 2 cents worth.

On the hereditary concerns:
As I undertsand it there are hereditary aspects to food allergies, but they are not nicely direct dominant and ressesive, but rather all tied up with complicating factors. Still, I would want to know, as a breeder. BUT I would not call and start pushing the issue. If you are calling for advice, then that could be helpful perhaps, but until you have a diagnosis of some kind your breeder is going to be figuratively "holding their breath" to see what the deal is. A good breeder will want to know and work with you, but the news is never good news, and do expect to give them some time to think, before being too terribly demanding. Alot of hopes and dreams get tied up into this dog bond, and just be respectful to start. Mutually, expect your breeder to be resepctful and helpful to you as well. Willing to call about other littemates and follow-up. To keep the communication channels open as it were, and keep you likwise informed. Dermatology problems can be a very broad range of issues, so it hard to really make a determination without some working knowledge.

Keep us posted

I really value what an asset it is to have so many details from around the world available for me to view and think about. The trick is to not draw conclusions where there aren't any.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:50 pm

1vizsla wrote:Ours would have a severe reaction if I fed raw or kibble even if it had just chicken fat (which is not supposed to cause a rxn but would). He was on a raw diet for the last year (he ate better than we did) but we really did not see any difference. The vet now thinks it may have been an immune disorder (but can't remember the name of it) that made him so allergic to everything.

Carla

Recent studies have pretty much settled on the fact that allergies are caused by over-active immune systems or at least under used systems. It is thought that the cleanliness and extra care of eliminating any contamination today is leading us down this path. Much like they used to say that if you lived in a bubble for thew first 20 years of your life you would probably die within a very short period after getting out and being exposed to all of the germs and viruses of today.

It would be very unusual for cooking to change an allergy but the amount of exposure could have a large impact. But by and large, we have to accept that most allergies are to something in the present environment that the dog has recently come in contact with and not to a food item it has been exposed to almost since birth. It does happen but is very rare. And those can be triggered by some other outside factor that caused a reaction when in combination with something else or when the dog is having or just had a reaction to something. They can be next to impossible to trace down and extremely costly.

Ezzy

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:46 am

We were definitely fighting something genetic.I don't intend to say that all allergy cases are this way. Most allergies are very controllable. I wish I could remember the disorders name. There was an article recently that had the info about it but I can't find it. The money was another issue. We were the #1 client at our vets office due to all the meds and appointments. In the end it became a quality of life issue and we decided it was best to end his suffering (and he did suffer). If I knew then what I know now, I would definitely do things differently. He was our "Free" dog that we got when he was 18 months old. By the time he was two he was very sick. We went to a reputable breeder for the next one.

Carla

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:07 am

Again, just a thought, intolerances or sensitivities can be severe and difficult to confirm. True allergies are usually protein in nature as there is an antigen-antibody response. Sensitivities affect thru the nervous system and may accompany decreased immunity. Trial and error in eliminating chemicals may be the key. How about trying natural treatment for fleas and parasites for example. Remember, anything can cause anything, but we have to use common sense and not be like Chicken Little. Again, google up Clinical Ecology.

moneypit · Post by **moneypit** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:55 am

just an update on abby she is done with the meds. now . and she hasnt been itchy yet its been about 4 days and she has been on hills dog food but if you ask me I still think she is still losing hair on her bottom half. how long does it take to see hair growth?