food question/clarification

[smokinsam]

so,
I have been thinking about changing dog food from purina shredded blend to something a bit cheaper perhaps.
My question is this,I was always told that any dogfood with the first ingredience being anykind of of"meal",by product or corn should be avoided.
Is this a "myth".My dog is fine on the shredded blend but something a bit cheaper with the same or better results would be logical.
I have read some of the ingredience on some of the foods I have seen being used on here and am now a bit confused.

[mcbosco]

The first ingredients should be animal based protein, chicken, beef, turkey, fish etc and preferably a "meal". If the first ingredients is something like "chicken" it should be backed by an animal protein meal because ingredients are listed by weight and "chicken" is 70% water before it is processed. In my opinion you would be wasting good money if the first ingredient was "chicken" and the second our third was "corn gluten meal".

This is what I would consider a good list of ingredients and because I know the food I know the grades of each are the top grade:

"Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ Meal, Whole Dry Eggs, Rolled Oats, Brewers Yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3, Folic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate"

This is a what I would consider a poor quality food and it is as expensive as the one above, go figure.

"Chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, potassium chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite"


Both of these are 30/20 blends but its pretty clear where much of the protein comes from and its not chicken.

As far as saving money goes, I would look for a food that doesn't spend so much on advertising and puts better ingredients in the bag. I don't know what your budget is or what is available in your area, but I am sure there are better choices. With gas closing in on $3 a gallon its doesn't make sense to drive too far. In NJ, probably the best deal is Canidae, it cost less per lb than Pro Plan and less to feed on top of it. Ingredients are top quality. If you have a Costco, then Kirkland's is a good food too for the money, less than $25 for 40lb bags.

Look for protein from animal sources, any food with corn gluten meal or soy bean meal is just using cheap ingredients to dress up the label and raise the GA.

[bossman]

I would actually agree with mcbosco on most of these issues. I look for chicken meal as my first ingredient. I would then look for another animal based protein no further than third on the list, Unlike many people, I have no problem with "by products" as long as the feed is coming from a quality company. I think some make way too big a deal of the "by product" issue..., and if properly formulated, can be an excellent source of protein. There are now so many good feeds on the market and in various price levels, it should be easy to find a feed your dog doe's well on at an affordable price.. Find one and stick with it.. ..Many excellent feeds can be found at feed stores rather than the big retail chains..I do not like corn or any grain as the first ingredient ...Good luck

[mcbosco]

By products are very good but I prefer to use fresh by products because they are cheap and easy to get. Heart, liver, kidney, tripe, etc of virtually any animal.

[birddogger]

I, also like a meat meal as the first ingredient. Then, I like a meat by-product and a fish meal. I am not talking about ingredients in order here. Anything I have ever fed has had corn or corn gluten and in my opinion, corn is a cost effective and good ingredient. There are several brands of dog food that meet these requirements and are inexpensive. Just a few are Diamond, Sportmix, Black Gold, Enhance Hunter's Edge and many more. It depends on what is available in your area.

Charlie

[bossman]

Agree with Charlie on the corn issue..Again, I think some make it a big general issue because a very small percentage of dog's are allergic to corn. Some manufacture's,imo, have tried to take advantage of this as a selling point for non corn products. Good source of carbohydrate's imo...My GSP's seem to have always done better on formula's that contain some corn

[smokinsam]

I, also like a meat meal as the first ingredient. Then, I like a meat by-product and a fish meal. I am not talking about ingredients in order here. Anything I have ever fed has had corn or corn gluten and in my opinion, corn is a cost effective and good ingredient. There are several brands of dog food that meet these requirements and are inexpensive. Just a few are Diamond, Sportmix, Black Gold, Enhance Hunter's Edge and many more. It depends on what is available in your area.

Charlie

I have seen all these in the stores around here except for sportmix.
I have not had any issues with proplan but the fact is that I know I can find something equal or better for cheaper I just need to find the right one.
I have fed diamond in the past and i dont think its much cheaper than proplan around here but Ill check.Black gold is sold at the store I get proplan from so im gonna check that out.Im gonna keep an I out for sportmix as well.
more suggestions are appreciated

[dwilson]

I feed nutrisource personally. The dogs love it and my scoopin duty says it is the most digestible food I have used so far. I particularly like the performance and super performance formulas not using plant proteins to reach their numbers as the major source of protein like a lot of the performance foods. The price is right around here too though it is made fairly local so not sure what it is like in other parts of the country.

http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutrisource/

[ezzy333]

I particularly like the performance and super performance formulas not using plant proteins to reach their numbers as the major source of protein like a lot of the performance foods.

Wonder why most performance and super performance feeds do that?

Ezzy

[smokinsam]

OK,
I have located sportmix and nutrisource close by me but at different stores.
The one that carries sportmix is closed on sundays and the one that carries nutrisource will open in an hour or two and i will call for priceing.
It is the black gold i cant find anywhere near me.could of sworn i seen it at the local pets plus but apparently not.

[dwilson]

I particularly like the performance and super performance formulas not using plant proteins to reach their numbers as the major source of protein like a lot of the performance foods.

Wonder why most performance and super performance feeds do that?

Ezzy

Because plant protein is cheap and meat protein is not.

[ezzy333]

I particularly like the performance and super performance formulas not using plant proteins to reach their numbers as the major source of protein like a lot of the performance foods.

Wonder why most performance and super performance feeds do that?

Ezzy

Because plant protein is cheap and meat protein is not.

Better rethink that. Believe I can buy by-product meal cheaper than most vegetable sources. Plus cheap is no advantage if it doesn't perform a well. Just wondwer if you don't get a better amino acid balance when you use some of each. I know that's the way it used to be and because of that the dogs seem to perform better. Hence, the term performance feeds.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

OK,
I have located sportmix and nutrisource close by me but at different stores.
The one that carries sportmix is closed on sundays and the one that carries nutrisource will open in an hour or two and i will call for priceing.
It is the black gold i cant find anywhere near me.could of sworn i seen it at the local pets plus but apparently not.

If you should go with the Sportmix, I would make one suggestion, go with the black bag [24/20]. If they don't have it, they might order it. That is what I did. Any of the brands you are looking at should do well.

Charlie

[dwilson]

[quote="ezzy333]
Better rethink that. Believe I can buy by-product meal cheaper than most vegetable sources. Plus cheap is no advantage if it doesn't perform a well. Just wondwer if you don't get a better amino acid balance when you use some of each. I know that's the way it used to be and because of that the dogs seem to perform better. Hence, the term performance feeds.

Ezzy[/quote]

If that was the case then why would they use corn at all? By product meal is actually a quality ingredient if it does not include mass amounts of hair. If you look at what a wild animal does when it makes a kill is it eats the guts first before the meat.

If you honostly believe the majority of these companies care about anything other than the bottom line you are mistaken. The companies that do go beyond the bottom line you pay for and they would be the equivilant to a micro brew beer. Plant protein simply is not as digestible to a dog as meat protein and carbs easily come from the rice in the formulas. If you add corn to a food to up the protein the lab test will say it is there even when the dog can not take advantage of it. The food may still be high quality and get the job done in an exceptional way but you simply aren't getting much more out of it than you would their normal maintenence formula. I would rather have a food that gives the dog energy it can use working rather than energy that has to be used to digest the food.

Haven't you ever wondering why Proplan looks and smells pretty much the same going in as it does coming out? It is because it is HARD to digest for a lot of dogs.

Here is the nutrisource super performance. It runs 35-40 for a 40lb bag and only requires 2.5 cups for a 50lbs dog under working conditions. That is another high point of a food like this. Many dogs under high stress working environments don't want to eat. This gets the nutrition into them in a very small amount of food.

Another product that I like to have on hand is http://www.nationaldogfood.com/energy.html. It can be mixed into water or sprinkled on the food for extra stressful situations. Sick dogs, stressed dogs, injured dogs, extreme conditions especially cold. THis stuff is a miracle in a small bucket.

[birddogger]

"Here is the nutrisource super performance. It runs 35-40 for a 40lb bag and only requires 2.5 cups for a 50lbs dog under working conditions. That is another high point of a food like this. Many dogs under high stress working environments don't want to eat. This gets the nutrition into them in a very small amount of food."

I am sure this is a very good food, but I don't think you can make a general statement that it only requires 2.5 cups for a 50# dog. Every dog is different. Some require more and some require less, regardless of the brand.

Charlie

[bossman]

Well, I guess here we go again. I disagree with the only thing they care about is the "bottom line" argument. With the exception of the Federal Government, I think we are all interested in making a profit...I believe that is capitalism (or was). Just because you make a profit doesn't mean you don't care about your clients, customers and the quality of your product. While I do not feed their product....I do not think Purina is evil..Or any other major brand intentionally produces poor quality feed. It is interesting that yuou should make reference to a National Food product. IMO this is another good feed, just veery difficult to find. At one time, I had their Performance Formula shipped from Dressler's Supply in Kansas City to Dallas..But shipping cost's were ridiculously high. They have just recently updated their formula...Mr Wilson..I certaily hope you make a profit, and a good but fair one in your profession...Thanks

[smokinsam]

"Here is the nutrisource super performance. It runs 35-40 for a 40lb bag and only requires 2.5 cups for a 50lbs dog under working conditions. That is another high point of a food like this. Many dogs under high stress working environments don't want to eat. This gets the nutrition into them in a very small amount of food."

I am sure this is a very good food, but I don't think you can make a general statement that it only requires 2.5 cups for a 50# dog. Every dog is different. Some require more and some require less, regardless of the brand.

Charlie

just got back from checking on nutrisource.for a 33# bag of performance they want 45.99 and they need to order it.that is the biggest bag they have.
I pay 36.98 for a 35# bag of PP shredded blend now.guess its not to bad

[smokinsam]

The first ingredients should be animal based protein, chicken, beef, turkey, fish etc and preferably a "meal". If the first ingredients is something like "chicken" it should be backed by an animal protein meal because ingredients are listed by weight and "chicken" is 70% water before it is processed. In my opinion you would be wasting good money if the first ingredient was "chicken" and the second our third was "corn gluten meal".

This is what I would consider a good list of ingredients and because I know the food I know the grades of each are the top grade:

"Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ Meal, Whole Dry Eggs, Rolled Oats, Brewers Yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3, Folic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate"

This is a what I would consider a poor quality food and it is as expensive as the one above, go figure.

"Chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, potassium chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite"


Both of these are 30/20 blends but its pretty clear where much of the protein comes from and its not chicken.

As far as saving money goes, I would look for a food that doesn't spend so much on advertising and puts better ingredients in the bag. I don't know what your budget is or what is available in your area, but I am sure there are better choices. With gas closing in on $3 a gallon its doesn't make sense to drive too far. In NJ, probably the best deal is Canidae, it cost less per lb than Pro Plan and less to feed on top of it. Ingredients are top quality. If you have a Costco, then Kirkland's is a good food too for the money, less than $25 for 40lb bags.

Look for protein from animal sources, any food with corn gluten meal or soy bean meal is just using cheap ingredients to dress up the label and raise the GA.

I do have costcos around and go there quite a bit.I have seen kirkland there and honestly,I never gave it any thought or bothered to look at the ingredience.
I will be looking into that also.Is their a performance blend made by them also?

[MikeB]

I have fed the Kirkland Chicken Rice off and on for years. Never had any problems with the food. You can't beat it for the price. Excellent ingredients. It is the same as Diamond Naturals Chicken Rice adult.
Kirkland is made by Diamond.

[dwilson]

Well, I guess here we go again. I disagree with the only thing they care about is the "bottom line" argument. With the exception of the Federal Government, I think we are all interested in making a profit...I believe that is capitalism (or was). Just because you make a profit doesn't mean you don't care about your clients, customers and the quality of your product. While I do not feed their product....I do not think Purina is evil..Or any other major brand intentionally produces poor quality feed. It is interesting that yuou should make reference to a National Food product. IMO this is another good feed, just veery difficult to find. At one time, I had their Performance Formula shipped from Dressler's Supply in Kansas City to Dallas..But shipping cost's were ridiculously high. They have just recently updated their formula...Mr Wilson..I certaily hope you make a profit, and a good but fair one in your profession...Thanks

I am in no way saying that they are making a poor quality food just not one as good as you would make yourself. Some companies try to maximize profits even if it means cutting corners. Others will stick my their small company morals and make a better product and price it competitively. Publicly traded companies have share holders to answer to. Companies that sell to big box retailers need to be able to make a profit and sell in massive amounts at deep discounts. They have to make numbers under those conditions, numbers that are often set for them by people that don't give a rats behind about your dog. Iams is a prime example of this happening when under those circumstances. They used to be the best around, then they got bought out and had to make a profit selling to walmart. Their quality suffered a ton and I don't think anyone can deny that.

National is a good food for the most part and has some serious animal people behind it. My brother works for the company that makes it and it is good food though it does have a lot of corn in it. My dogs did not like the texture and I didn't like the smell in the house... Very trout pellet like. Their energy pack on the other hand... Awesome stuff!

Fortunately my profession is about protecting profit and personal information of our clients. I sleep just fine at night.

[dwilson]

"Here is the nutrisource super performance. It runs 35-40 for a 40lb bag and only requires 2.5 cups for a 50lbs dog under working conditions. That is another high point of a food like this. Many dogs under high stress working environments don't want to eat. This gets the nutrition into them in a very small amount of food."

I am sure this is a very good food, but I don't think you can make a general statement that it only requires 2.5 cups for a 50# dog. Every dog is different. Some require more and some require less, regardless of the brand.

Charlie

just got back from checking on nutrisource.for a 33# bag of performance they want 45.99 and they need to order it.that is the biggest bag they have.
I pay 36.98 for a 35# bag of PP shredded blend now.guess its not to bad

That is about $10 more than I pay for it here and it is a 40lb bag. I am not aware of them packaging it in smaller bags to ship off though they may, otherwise their catalog may be wrong.

The 2.5c per 50# dog was not a general statement. It is the recommended feeding for a hard working dog of that weight. Of course every dog is different but it was definitely not a general statement. A 32/21 food is pretty hot and anyone would be well advised to start at the recommended feeding level.

[smokinsam]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

[dwilson]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

Proplan is not the worst thing you can feed by any means. I personally don't like it but I wouldn't freak out too much. The puppy we just brought home was eating it, her mom has lived 6 years on it and is doing fine. If your food has corn in it the best corn is the gluten(this is the easiest part to digest and the highest protein).

I haven't tried sportmix though I wonder what kind of animal "meat meal" comes from... Could be about anything or a mix of several.

What do you do with your dog? You very well may not need the high performance formula in any of the foods. The regular adult formula of most of them would be fine for your typical hunting dog and even most FT dogs. It would be the dogs on an intense circuit, hunting 3+ days a week hard for a long period of time, or some other sort of extreme amount of exercise.

[ezzy333]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

Let me make a couple of statements that you won't agree with but they are true. You can not tell the quality of a food by looking at the ingredient list on a bag. That list provides a guideline of what the major ingredients are and that is all. The problem with most people who read that list have little if any nutritional knowledge about any of the ingredients or of the requirements of a dog. So for most it is pretty much a waste of time to pay much attention to it. I do like to see an animal protein source listed first but you have to remember that there may only be a pound or two difference between that one than the ingredient listed second.

You may have started using Pro Plan because it is the largest seller of a performance feed in the world as far as I know. Probably some where near 80% or so of the trialers and pros in the dog world use it. And they continue to use it because it works and the dogs that are eating it perform at an extremely high level and they need the essential nutrients that it provides possibly better than any other feed. Volume of sales almost always is the result of high quality at a reasonable price. I think there are other feeds that work about as well and are cheaper but there is no way anyone can criticize the results of what Purina has done in the dog food world.

You possibly won't remember by-products and corn gluten being in Pro Plan a couple of years ago because someone hadn't told you they were bad or should be avoided. But they have been used for years and are a couple of the most important ingredients that are used today since we are now manufacturing feeds that are much higher in nutrition that we used to use. You have to have very concentrated ingredients if you are going to produce a concentrated feed. It was interesting in one of the previous posts in this thread that someone said they were using corn to increase the protein level of the feed. That just doesn't make any sense since most of the feeds that are being made are around 20 % protein or higher and corn is only 8 to 9%. Truth then is that the more corn you include the lower the protein and not the higher. But just to set the record straight corn is added for the carbs mainly but depending on what type of corn they use it can add some fat, protein, as well that will help balance the amino acids that a dog requires. Plus it is reasonably priced, is in good supply, and is a natural easily digested food source for our dogs. Corn Gluten, by the way is just whole corn that has had most of the sugar and starch removed so that it is much higher in protein on a percentage basis. More of it is used in today's world because it has become much more available at a cheaper price since the ethanol plants started up.

Also someone was being rather critical of a company for watching it's bottom line. I for one certainly hope they are as I have no desire to buy from a company that won't be around the next time I need feed. A company that is going to stay in business knows that the only way they can continue in business is to have a whole lot of satisfied customers that will keep coming back and buying their product. So you can pretty much rest assured that every successful company in the world is producing a product that you as customer want and needs and the way they keep doing that is to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. That's true whether you are selling puppies or puppy food. And it's true about forums on the net, you get on one that supplies either the information you seek or is entertaining, and hopefully both.

Glad to have you here.

Ezzy

[dwilson]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

Let me make a couple of statements that you won't agree with but they are true. You can not tell the quality of a food by looking at the ingredient list on a bag. That list provides a guideline of what the major ingredients are and that is all. The problem with most people who read that list have little if any nutritional knowledge about any of the ingredients or of the requirements of a dog. So for most it is pretty much a waste of time to pay much attention to it. I do like to see an animal protein source listed first but you have to remember that there may only be a pound or two difference between that one than the ingredient listed second.

You may have started using Pro Plan because it is the largest seller of a performance feed in the world as far as I know. Probably some where near 80% or so of the trialers and pros in the dog world use it. And they continue to use it because it works and the dogs that are eating it perform at an extremely high level and they need the essential nutrients that it provides possibly better than any other feed. Volume of sales almost always is the result of high quality at a reasonable price. I think there are other feeds that work about as well and are cheaper but there is no way anyone can criticize the results of what Purina has done in the dog food world.

You possibly won't remember by-products and corn gluten being in Pro Plan a couple of years ago because someone hadn't told you they were bad or should be avoided. But they have been used for years and are a couple of the most important ingredients that are used today since we are now manufacturing feeds that are much higher in nutrition that we used to use. You have to have very concentrated ingredients if you are going to produce a concentrated feed. It was interesting in one of the previous posts in this thread that someone said they were using corn to increase the protein level of the feed. That just doesn't make any sense since most of the feeds that are being made are around 20 % protein or higher and corn is only 8 to 9%. Truth then is that the more corn you include the lower the protein and not the higher. But just to set the record straight corn is added for the carbs mainly but depending on what type of corn they use it can add some fat, protein, as well that will help balance the amino acids that a dog requires. Plus it is reasonably priced, is in good supply, and is a natural easily digested food source for our dogs. Corn Gluten, by the way is just whole corn that has had most of the sugar and starch removed so that it is much higher in protein on a percentage basis. More of it is used in today's world because it has become much more available at a cheaper price since the ethanol plants started up.

Also someone was being rather critical of a company for watching it's bottom line. I for one certainly hope they are as I have no desire to buy from a company that won't be around the next time I need feed. A company that is going to stay in business knows that the only way they can continue in business is to have a whole lot of satisfied customers that will keep coming back and buying their product. So you can pretty much rest assured that every successful company in the world is producing a product that you as customer want and needs and the way they keep doing that is to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. That's true whether you are selling puppies or puppy food. And it's true about forums on the net, you get on one that supplies either the information you seek or is entertaining, and hopefully both.

Glad to have you here.

Ezzy

There is a massive difference between watching your bottom line to stay in business and make a profit and to put another 50 cents in a share holder's pocket.

[ezzy333]

I have never had a problem with some one making money to put in someones pocket. IF i did, I would move to some socialist or communist country. My favorite pocket is mine and I sure do look for stocks of a company who pays a small dividend. Just had no idea that was bad. Quality product at a reasonable price and they can put the money in whom ever's pocket, as long as they are still here when I need another bag of feed.

I do like happy shareholers too, since I couldn't have retired with out them.

Ezzy

[smokinsam]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

Proplan is not the worst thing you can feed by any means. I personally don't like it but I wouldn't freak out too much. The puppy we just brought home was eating it, her mom has lived 6 years on it and is doing fine. If your food has corn in it the best corn is the gluten(this is the easiest part to digest and the highest protein).

I haven't tried sportmix though I wonder what kind of animal "meat meal" comes from... Could be about anything or a mix of several.

What do you do with your dog? You very well may not need the high performance formula in any of the foods. The regular adult formula of most of them would be fine for your typical hunting dog and even most FT dogs. It would be the dogs on an intense circuit, hunting 3+ days a week hard for a long period of time, or some other sort of extreme amount of exercise.

weekend training/practice on birds and running him a few times a week for a couple miles which will be increased this week for michigan nstra region trials starting soon.and then comes time to hunt later on.

[dwilson]

from comparing the ingredience to proplan it is a better food for sure.
if it cost just as much i would switch to it for sure.
after reading some and comparing other foods I can only wonder why I decided to feed proplan to start with.
I dont remember their being corn gluten and by products in it about 2 years ago.I could be wrong though,wouldnt be the first time.
gonna check on sportmix tomorrow

Proplan is not the worst thing you can feed by any means. I personally don't like it but I wouldn't freak out too much. The puppy we just brought home was eating it, her mom has lived 6 years on it and is doing fine. If your food has corn in it the best corn is the gluten(this is the easiest part to digest and the highest protein).

I haven't tried sportmix though I wonder what kind of animal "meat meal" comes from... Could be about anything or a mix of several.

What do you do with your dog? You very well may not need the high performance formula in any of the foods. The regular adult formula of most of them would be fine for your typical hunting dog and even most FT dogs. It would be the dogs on an intense circuit, hunting 3+ days a week hard for a long period of time, or some other sort of extreme amount of exercise.

weekend training/practice on birds and running him a few times a week for a couple miles which will be increased this week for michigan nstra region trials starting soon.and then comes time to hunt later on.

I would feed a maintenence food in that case.

[smokinsam]

So,corn gluten is good and byproducts can be good if from a reputable company?
Maybe I dont need to switch food then.I have had no problems with proplan shredded blend .
I dont need to switch because I cant afford proplan.
now im not sure,maybe 36.98 for 35#'s is good just for the peace of mind because I already know it works.

[dwilson]

So,corn gluten is good and byproducts can be good if from a reputable company?
Maybe I dont need to switch food then.I have had no problems with proplan shredded blend .
I dont need to switch because I cant afford proplan.
now im not sure,maybe 36.98 for 35#'s is good just for the peace of mind because I already know it works.

$1/lb is about what I expect to pay for a quality food. If it is working for you then stick with it. That ultimately is the very best advice you can be given regardless if it is an $80 bag of food or if its $5 kibbles and bits, if it works and you can afford it then use it.

[bossman]

I don't know anyone who has a business plan to just "stay in business"...Let the consumer's decide. If they don't like the product or the product doesn't work..Then don't buy the product (opps..wouldn't that cause the srock price to go down)..I personnally don't feed Purina. But Ezzy is right...Probably sells more dog food than any other company and is one of the feeds my vet recommends. I also wouldn't be suprised if they put as much if not more into research and development than any dog food company. If it works for your dog and you can afford it..Feed it...Now let' get this economy going again and go out tomorrow and buy a bag of your favorite dog food...Whatever it is...Well almost whatever..

[birddogger]

So,corn gluten is good and byproducts can be good if from a reputable company?
Maybe I dont need to switch food then.I have had no problems with proplan shredded blend .
I dont need to switch because I cant afford proplan.
now im not sure,maybe 36.98 for 35#'s is good just for the peace of mind because I already know it works.

OK, I thought maybe you were trying to find something as good at a cheaper price. I agree with the above posts, stay with what you have. There is no reason to switch. Corn gluten and biproducts are a good thing, not bad things.

Charlie

[big steve46]

I think it's silly to pay a dollar a pound for good dog feed when there are plenty good ones for 45 cents to 75 cents a pound. Many of these are as good as pro-plan if not better. I now feed Loyall Active Adult for less than 70 cents a pound, and I wouldn't pay the same for pro-plan. I do agree if you find something that works well for a dollar a pound or more, and it suits you, more power to you.

[Grange]

I'm feeding Diamond Naturals right now. I liked Diamond Performance, but my setter had gas from it. My biggest concern is if how much she'll need to eat during the trial season due to the lower fat content. My lab will eat any food and did well on most foods I tried. The food my lab did the worst on was a 5 star food on dogfoodanalysis.com site and the food she does very well on is a 1 star food that had corn and beet pulp. Go figure.

[smokinsam]

So,corn gluten is good and byproducts can be good if from a reputable company?
Maybe I dont need to switch food then.I have had no problems with proplan shredded blend .
I dont need to switch because I cant afford proplan.
now im not sure,maybe 36.98 for 35#'s is good just for the peace of mind because I already know it works.

OK, I thought maybe you were trying to find something as good at a cheaper price. I agree with the above posts, stay with what you have. There is no reason to switch. Corn gluten and biproducts are a good thing, not bad things.

Charlie

Thats what the original plan was because as bigsteve said it is a bit silly to pay more than i need to but I can find it anywhere all the time.
some of the other foods mentioned I had to search for and some had to be ordered.nutrisource isnt any cheaper here and I cant find black gold.
sportmix seems like a good option but im not sure if its better than what im feeding now.cheaper for sure,but I would hate to cheat the dog to make it easier on my wallet.not saying sportmix is no good I just dont have expierience with it.

[ezzy333]

I'm feeding Diamond Naturals right now. I liked Diamond Performance, but my setter had gas from it. My biggest concern is if how much she'll need to eat during the trial season due to the lower fat content. My lab will eat any food and did well on most foods I tried. The food my lab did the worst on was a 5 star food on dogfoodanalysis.com site and the food she does very well on is a 1 star food that had corn and beet pulp. Go figure.

No surprise here. Corn and beet pulp is in most feeds because we found they worked better than most other ingredients. Plus the site you refer to is a marketing tool for a dog food company and they are just trying very hard to sell their product by running down the major competitors.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

This point has been made many times but - for others that may happen to read this thread just remember that the cost of feeding is the cost/pound times the weight of the food needed to keep the dog in good condition. After switching foods to a relatively good quality but lower cost per pound alternative I ended up needing to feed a higher weight of the alternative food per day to maintain dogs in the same condition.

FYI

[big steve46]

This point has been made many times but - for others that may happen to read this thread just remember that the cost of feeding is the cost/pound times the weight of the food needed to keep the dog in good condition. After switching foods to a relatively good quality but lower cost per pound alternative I ended up needing to feed a higher weight of the alternative food per day to maintain dogs in the same condition.

FYI

You make good points which should be considered which is why I usually allude to the "efficiancy" of a feed. Usually after you get to a good mid-grade feed such as Diamond Premium, Hunter's Edge, Purina Pro-Plan etc, you may reach a point of diminishing return to buy a more expensive feed. If A feed costs 30% more, and you feed 10% less, you are losing.

[BigShooter]

This point has been made many times but - for others that may happen to read this thread just remember that the cost of feeding is the cost/pound times the weight of the food needed to keep the dog in good condition. After switching foods to a relatively good quality but lower cost per pound alternative I ended up needing to feed a higher weight of the alternative food per day to maintain dogs in the same condition.

FYI

You make good points which should be considered which is why I usually allude to the "efficiancy" of a feed. Usually after you get to a good mid-grade feed such as Diamond Premium, Hunter's Edge, Purina Pro-Plan etc, you may reach a point of diminishing return to buy a more expensive feed. If A feed costs 30% more, and you feed 10% less, you are losing.

... and conversely if a feed costs 20% less per pound and you feed the same weight or even 10% more to get the same result with the dogs - you should be money ahead, but coats & weight on a dog are visible and changes are relatively easily discernible. Changes in performance can be a bit more subtle.

[big steve46]

This point has been made many times but - for others that may happen to read this thread just remember that the cost of feeding is the cost/pound times the weight of the food needed to keep the dog in good condition. After switching foods to a relatively good quality but lower cost per pound alternative I ended up needing to feed a higher weight of the alternative food per day to maintain dogs in the same condition.

FYI

You make good points which should be considered which is why I usually allude to the "efficiancy" of a feed. Usually after you get to a good mid-grade feed such as Diamond Premium, Hunter's Edge, Purina Pro-Plan etc, you may reach a point of diminishing return to buy a more expensive feed. If A feed costs 30% more, and you feed 10% less, you are losing.

... and conversely if a feed costs 20% less per pound and you feed the same weight or even 10% more to get the same result with the dogs - you should be money ahead, but coats & weight on a dog are visible and changes are relatively easily discernible. Changes in performance can be a bit more subtle.

I agree. I do pay attention to the stool, not so much the color but more to looseness whether it be too soft or too hard, and of course volume of piles. Still yet, coats, weight, energy, and stamina are paramount.

[smokinsam]

went to check out sportmix and their supply was limited to say the least.
But while i was there I found proplan for 26.99 for a 35# bag.I drive by this store everyday coming home from work too.
I have decided to not change the food I've been feeding and instead Im just gonna change where I buy it.haha
I dont know how one store can sell it for so much less than the other and for that price I really dont care, and they were fresh bags.
To think I have been paying 10 bucks more than I should of been irritates the heck out of me because all I had to do was go inside this store and look.Oh well I guess.now i know.
learned some things with this thread thank's guy's.

[SubMariner]

"This point has been made many times but - for others that may happen to read this thread just remember that the cost of feeding is the cost/pound times the weight of the food needed to keep the dog in good condition. After switching foods to a relatively good quality but lower cost per pound alternative I ended up needing to feed a higher weight of the alternative food per day to maintain dogs in the same condition. "

"You make good points which should be considered which is why I usually allude to the "efficiancy" of a feed. Usually after you get to a good mid-grade feed such as Diamond Premium, Hunter's Edge, Purina Pro-Plan etc, you may reach a point of diminishing return to buy a more expensive feed. If A feed costs 30% more, and you feed 10% less, you are losing."

"... and conversely if a feed costs 20% less per pound and you feed the same weight or even 10% more to get the same result with the dogs - you should be money ahead, but coats & weight on a dog are visible and changes are relatively easily discernible. Changes in performance can be a bit more subtle"


"I agree. I do pay attention to the stool, not so much the color but more to looseness whether it be too soft or too hard, and of course volume of piles. Still yet, coats, weight, energy, and stamina are paramount"

IMHO this is KEY. People keep talking about getting the cheapest food possible when it should be noted that cheap does not always equate to less expensive. We switched our GSP from 4 cups of Exceed to 2, 2 1/2 cups of Innova EVO with definite positive results. He has less waste, has put on muscle and is generally in better condition with the EVO than he was with Exceed.

Yes, at the store I am paying more for that bag of EVO than I was for Exceed. But because the EVO is more nutrient/protein rich, I am feeding him HALF of what I was on Exceed. With better results.

Just throwing that one out there...

[mcbosco]

sub,

have you tried the new Evo Herring formula?

[BigShooter]

People keep talking about getting the cheapest food possible when it should be noted that cheap does not always equate to less expensive. We switched our GSP from 4 cups of Exceed to 2, 2 1/2 cups of Innova EVO with definite positive results.

I think we're all pretty much on the same page here but I'd like to emphasize the difference between cups of food & the weight of food. Food is sold by weight not volume. A cupful of large squares of food like you may find in Exceed or other brands may very well weight less than a cupful of the more dense foods. If you truly want to mess around with trying different brands to get "the best for less" compare by weight not by cupful.

[postoakshorthairs]

I think we're all pretty much on the same page here but I'd like to emphasize the difference between cups of food & the weight of food. Food is sold by weight not volume. A cupful of large squares of food like you may find in Exceed or other brands may very well weight less than a cupful of the more dense foods. If you truly want to mess around with trying different brands to get "the best for less" compare by weight not by cupful.

I'm not saying i don't agree with you, but this is something that I, as someone who has studied weight/nutrition in humans, has a difficult time coming to grips with. In human food you can take a volume of any food and compare it to another volume...for example a cup of peanut butter has x amount of calories and a cup of rice krispies has x amount of calories. I know then, as a consumer, that if i want to eat a certain amount of calories a day i can eat one cup of peanut butter or 5 cups of rice krispies. What i don't understand about dog food, assuming what your saying is correct, is why in the world do they show the calories "per cup" on the label? I know they commonly show calories per pound also...but you can usually break that down to calories by cup also. Why does the purina pet nutrition site tell you to measure the dogs daily intake (by the cup) and monitor the dogs appearance to know whether to increase or decrease the volume of food? Again..not arguing just trying to understand

[BigShooter]

Why does the purina pet nutrition site tell you to measure the dogs daily intake (by the cup) and monitor the dogs appearance to know whether to increase or decrease the volume of food? Again..not arguing just trying to understand

You're increasing or decreasing the volume of the "same food" & noting the change in the animal, not comparing two foods to one another. There are lots of experts here that can certainly chime in. The only point I was trying to make is that a cupful of one food is not likely to be equal to a cupful of another food. A better way to think about food cost is to calculate the cost per day needed to maintain the same weight, coat condition, health, energy & stamina.

[BigShooter]

Just to be clear: Lets say "A" is a 40 pound bag containing 60 cups of food & costs $36. "B" is a 40 lb. bag of another food containing 90 cups of food & costs $26. To get the same weight, coat, health, energy & stamina lets assume you have to feed 2 cups of food "A" per day & 4 1/2 cups of food "B". So bag "A" lasts: 60 cups/2 cups per day fed = 30 days. Bag "B" lasts 90 cups divided by 4 & 1/2 cups per day = 20 days. Costs per day: "A" is $36/ 30 days = $1.20 per day. "B" is $26/20 = $1.30/ day.

By weight: "A" 2 cups per day fed is (40 lbs./60 cups) times 2 cups fed per day = 1.33 pounds fed per day. "B" 4 1/2 cups per day is (40 lbs./ 90 cups) times 4 1/2 per day = 2.00 pounds fed per day.

I'll let others chime in if they want to about caloric equivalency, food type assimilation, storage and availability.

[postoakshorthairs]

I get where your coming from on the cost per pound etc. I thought you meant something different.

[mcbosco]

Big Shoo is right, but a cup of kibble by volume in somewhere between 4 - 4.5 ounces by weight. I think most of the difference will come down to to calories per unit whether its measured volume or more precisely weight, as well as the ability to assimilate, or the quality of the ingredients.

But you can't overlook weight & size differences in kibble.

[SubMariner]

sub,

have you tried the new Evo Herring formula?

Nope... you?