Gun Dog Forum

I've been reading a lot about Ivermectin for heart worm prevention. Looks like the main thing in stuff like heartgard. Just have to wonder why you can't seem to find anything over the counter for dogs. I talked to people at the feed store and they all know about it being used for dogs they just can't tell you to use it. The cost is clearly the reason I would think about using it. If you are using it for prevention what's the dose and have you had any adverse reactions ? Thanks, John

It has never been cleared for dogs because the manufacture has to do a lot of research and tests on different animals and the cost is astronomical before FDA can approve it. There just isn't a big enough market to justify the cost. For prevention you can use 1 tenth of a cc for every 10 lbs of body weight. That will take care of a lot of other worms also.

Ezzy

I have been using regular Heartguard for so long I can't remember. Last year I couldn't find regular Heartguard anywhere and had to buy Heartguard Plus, which has Pryantel for instestinal worm prevention. I was told regular was discontinued but it wasn't.

Anyway, it is a prescription only product where I live in NJ and probably everywhere else too. Some people on this forum buy from a supplier in Australia and have it shipped.

Ivermectin is the standard for heartworm prevention and I use Heartguard and wouldn't think of using anything else.

Protocol is to have a heartworm blood test once a year before using it for the season.

Hope that helps, and the cost of Hearrguard varies widely. If you have a good relationship with your vet he can write you a script and you can buy it from Dr. Foster & Smith for example. I think I pay about $35 from my vet for the 6 count pack for 51lbs and up. You might get lucky and get it without a script. Check your state laws.

We use the 1% injectable Ivermectin you can get a 50ml bottle at the fed store from about 30-50 bucks WE DO NOT INJECT what we do is as Ezzy stated 1/10th CC per 10 pounds body weight and squirt it on a some canned food the dogs scarf it up and this method is cost effective enough to take care of a kennel year round

Also this is not to be used on Collies or breeds which are known to be sensitive to ivermectin

We have not had any problems with this method on over 50 dogs nor do any of the people I know have had any problems using this method

Thanks for your comments. Great website for sharing Info.

Also do a search for "Ivermectin" or "cattle Ivermectin" or "horse paste ivermectin" and you'll find a thread about this very issue, that has a TON of good info in it. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and on the issue of heartworm prevention that thread has several methods that have proven to be good practice based upon practical experience.

That said, not many of us around here have been to Veterinarian Med School (though some have), so what you do with your dogs is always an "at your own risk" kind of thing. You're responsible for doing the research.

As a matter of fact, here are a few of the better threads:

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 100&t=7762

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 88&t=16369

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 88&t=14679

Just want to clarify something? There are three threads mentioned here, one of them being in the hall of fame posts entitled "Ivomec". As I understand it Ivomec is merely a brand name of Ivermectin? My local feed store does not carry Ivomec they carry Ivermax, again as I understand it another brand name for Ivermectin? Just want to make sure before I buy it and use it?

Thanks

"IVERMAX Injection has been developed specifically for use in cattle, swine, reindeer and American bison only. This product should not be used in other animal species as severe adverse reactions, including fatalities in dogs, may result"

I think I would go with this if you dont want to spend the money on HeartGuard:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=11093

mcbosco wrote:"IVERMAX Injection has been developed specifically for use in cattle, swine, reindeer and American bison only. This product should not be used in other animal species as severe adverse reactions, including fatalities in dogs, may result"

I think I would go with this if you dont want to spend the money on HeartGuard:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=11093

I googled Ivermax and it says it is the same as Ivermec and is OK to use for dogs. Vets can not recommend it officially since it has never been cleared for use on dogs. But most will tell you it is OK. Check with a vet or someone to insure it is the same product as it appears to be from what I can find.

Ezzy

My vet told me 30 yrs ago how to use it. He told me 1/10th cc per 20 lbs....I dose about every dog here with 3/10 of a CC, which I have seen it deworm dogs that have worms....It has worked for 30 yrs for me at that dosage.

I would check amount I only give 1.5 of a cc per 60lbs.

snips wrote:My vet told me 30 yrs ago how to use it. He told me 1/10th cc per 20 lbs....I dose about every dog here with 3/10 of a CC, which I have seen it deworm dogs that have worms....It has worked for 30 yrs for me at that dosage.

This is exactly what I have used also and the dogs have never had any worms show since I started using it. Lesser amounts can be used for heartworm but isn't as effective for other worms then. It is not a drug that is easy to overdose with as it has a wide level of safe use.

Ezzy

Been using Ivomec as well for some time and no problems.

Do any of you treat for other parasites that Ivomec does not treat eg. (tapeworms, hookworms, roundworms etc..) I've started using "Safe guard" (Fenbendazole) twice a year a broad spectrum dewormer. It also works on Giardia.

Actually when you use a higher dose( I use 1/10th cc per 10 lbs) and yes Ivermectin will cover round worm and hook worm.. I have seen it work

Just so we see the forest for the trees:

Canine heartworm is very rare, simple to treat, and only seasonal prevention is needed outside of FL and So. TX. I hate that vets out west and in new england make so much money from selling heartgard during the cooler months. If the air temp reaches 55 degrees for even a minute, you do not need to treat for several weeks.

I am stealing my info from Patrick Burns, btw. But he knows his stuff cold.

Flock,

If you knew me you would know that I am as about anti-vaccine, anti-pesticide and pro-natural feeder on the planet. You might be right heartworm infestation is rare in some places but unlike Lyme, the treatment is rough, though better than it used to be, and downside risk is high because it is asymptomatic generally until the advanced stages. You are dead wrong that it is uncommon outside Texas and Florida. Eastern states like NJ are high risk states.

If the treatment was a simple course of antibiotics and the symptoms were a limp & fever, I would agree with you. You have never seen a dog with advanced heartworms like I have.

I don't know who Patrick Burns is, but perhaps you should seek better advise.

sal

Check this out. It only takes a second and is really well sourced:

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/

Flocker,

I have no idea what your friend is trying to pull but that is a complete fabrication. The reason there are not many cases in some of the country is practically all dogs are on medication. For instance here in the midwest if you are not using preventative it is almost certain your dog will have them within months. I have personally had two dogs have them that were on preventative meds. As you go north there is less of it but through out much of the US it is a given that you either use preventative or your dog will die with them.

I just don't want anyone reading this material thinking they can get by without using a preventative and losing their dog. I am not a vet but have personally seen dozens of dogs with heartworm as it is almost universal unless someone is treating there dog. I would make a guess that the average vet sees close to a hundred cases a year in contrast to the info you linked to that many vets have never seen a case.

Ezzy

FLocker wrote:Check this out. It only takes a second and is really well sourced:

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/

how dare those veterinarians actually make money by providing a service!? that just reeks of capitalism to me, and we all know how terrible that is! :roll:


a few of this guys "facts" are true, but alot of what he is spouting is just plain nonsense. sounds like someone who either couldnt get accepted to vet school or just flunked out. but, its on the internet, so it must be true, right?

i have 2 of those dog hearts full of worms in my clinic, and both of them were removed (by me) from clients dogs that didnt use heartworm preventitive.

Ezzy,

He's not my friend. He's a total d*ck, judging by a lot of his writings. But to me, his point of view sounds a lot more sourced than your anecdotes.

I honestly have no agenda. I give Heartgard, because my wife buys it and remembers to tell me to give it to the dogs. If he is full of it, i would be very interested, i'd apologize for putting b.s. out there, and do a total 180. Seriously.

Burns runs working earth dogs, rails against the AKC, and incedentally played a small but critical role in bringing Bernie Madoff to justice. He is a grumpy dude, but not a wacko.

If you have time, call bs on his post. A lot of people like me take him seriously. So if you're right, and he's wrong, you could be helping a lot of dogs.

For example:

In most of the country, only seasonal heatworm "prevention" is needed.
The short story here is that heartworm is a kind of nematode (dirofilaria immitis) spread by mosquitoes (and only by mosquitoes). The lifecycle of the nematode involves six stages, and a dog can get infected with heartworm only if two of these stages are fully completed inside the body of the mosquito, and those stages can only be completed inside the body of the mosquito if the temperature stays above 57 degrees for at least 45 days straight, both day and night. If the temperature drops below 57 degrees even once during that 45-day period, the lifecycle of the nematode is broken, and heartworm cannot be transmitted to your dog. What this means, in simple terms, is that a year-round program of Heartgard (sometimes spelled 'Heartguard") or some other "preventative" medicine is NOT needed in most of the country outside of Florida, the Rio Grande Valley of Texas.
. . . . . Look carefully at the maps below (click to enlarge). These maps come from “Seasonal Timing of Heartworm Chemoprophylaxis (Heartworm Meds) in the United

"""""

dog dr.:

I like my Vet. I think she is honest. I gave her $370 for a spay last week. But reading Burns, who specializes in Govt. and (human) medical fraud has opened my eyes to a lot of aspects of modern Vet practices that are designed to scare me in to spending money that does not make my dogs any healthier at all. I used to buy special food from my previous vet, pay for vaccine boosters, every diagnostic suggested, well dog visits, Rimadyl, and teeth cleaning. These days, I never argue anything, but there are some suggested services that I politely decline.

If his sources are faulty/dishonest, i would be disappointed, as i recommend his writing to a lot of friends. But he gets a lifetime pass from me for saving me hundreds or thousands. I am not convinced yet though.

By the way, do you think that there are way to many vet practices in the U.S. today?

Ummm Heartworm is NOT rare ...I learned that one the hard way by listening to a couple vets in my area ...

I only was giving heartworm to the dogs we took on the road... Came home to a dog coughing had him tested for Valley Fever which came up neg next test was heartworm and it was positive then came testing all the young dogs and trial dogs ..All the trial dogs were neg but the kennel dogs which were of an age that are still huntable ...Try having 13 dogs treated ..and FYI this is AZ and dogs which were positive never left the preserve.

It is cropping up every where...
I see more and more dogs in rescue that are HW positive

Ivermectin is cheap enough sure Heartguard is more expensive But for 89 bucks I can do about 200 plus dogs...My pups get Ivermec starting at 6 weeks of age, I do not mess around with

FWIW and time it is warm enough mosquitoes come out,,I have swatted mosquitoes in Ohio in the month of Nov.

Now if some one is just treating 1 or 2 dogs heartguard isn't a bad route...And as for vets making money...I don't work for free why should they...

does ivermectin do anything as a flea and tick prevention at .10 cc per 10lbs

Heartworm rare outside fla and tx.....thats rich !

FLocker wrote:dog dr.:

I like my Vet. I think she is honest. I gave her $370 for a spay last week. But reading Burns, who specializes in Govt. and (human) medical fraud has opened my eyes to a lot of aspects of modern Vet practices that are designed to scare me in to spending money that does not make my dogs any healthier at all. I used to buy special food from my previous vet, pay for vaccine boosters, every diagnostic suggested, well dog visits, Rimadyl, and teeth cleaning. These days, I never argue anything, but there are some suggested services that I politely decline.

If his sources are faulty/dishonest, i would be disappointed, as i recommend his writing to a lot of friends. But he gets a lifetime pass from me for saving me hundreds or thousands. I am not convinced yet though.

By the way, do you think that there are way to many vet practices in the U.S. today?

im glad you have a good relationship with your vet. however, if your paying almost $400 for a spay, your getting taken to the cleaners. and i agree, there are alot of vets who run high pressure clinics thatv try to sell you all the latest "stuff", but please dont lump all of us into that category. i have said it before on here, but my theory of practice is "here is the information and experience i have, lets make an informed decision together about what is best for you and your animal". i dont even make people get a test before they buy heartworm preventitive; i suggest it, but dont make them. and if a dog is less than 6 months old, then no test is required. as far as there being too many vet practices, i have no idea. we stay pretty busy for a 3 vet practice, and there is another one in town (pop. 6500, approx.) but we do mixed animal, so we do alot of driving as well. anyway, heartworm is a very real threat, but you are right, alot of clinics push it way too hard.

I have a hard time with the 57F thing. We missed dosing our lab 1 month in the fall and he got heart worm. I know the temps got below 57F. Also the treatment is hard on them. He was a just over a year when it happen and not a large lab, 65-70 lbs, and only lived to be 10 before his organs shut down. Our vet said it was because of the treatment and had warned us before hand that he would probably not live as long. Now this was about 10 years ago so the treatment maybe better today. We live in SW Iowa and heart worm is very prevalent here, has been for years.

The treatment is brutal and long. Just imagine having to absorb a chest full of dead worms.

dog dr wrote: i dont even make people get a test before they buy heartworm preventitive; i suggest it, but dont make them. and if a dog is less than 6 months old, then no test is required. as far as there being too many vet practices, i have no idea. we stay pretty busy for a 3 vet practice, and there is another one in town (pop. 6500, approx.) but we do mixed animal, so we do alot of driving as well. anyway, heartworm is a very real threat, but you are right, alot of clinics push it way too hard.

Even though I treat my dogs with Ivomec year round my vet clinic still recommends the heartworm test each year. They know that I do this yet they still recommend the test. I would think that the chances of having heartworm would be virtually impossible if treating year round, especially with the dosage that is often recommended @ 1/10th of a CC per 10# weight ?? or wouldn't it.....

Chaingang wrote:

dog dr wrote: i dont even make people get a test before they buy heartworm preventitive; i suggest it, but dont make them. and if a dog is less than 6 months old, then no test is required. as far as there being too many vet practices, i have no idea. we stay pretty busy for a 3 vet practice, and there is another one in town (pop. 6500, approx.) but we do mixed animal, so we do alot of driving as well. anyway, heartworm is a very real threat, but you are right, alot of clinics push it way too hard.

Even though I treat my dogs with Ivomec year round my vet clinic still recommends the heartworm test each year. They know that I do this yet they still recommend the test. I would think that the chances of having heartworm would be virtually impossible if treating year round, especially with the dosage that is often recommended @ 1/10th of a CC per 10# weight ?? or wouldn't it.....

as long as you are diligent about dosing, then yeah, the test shouldnt be necessary. they probably just rcommend it to everybody so they can cove their butt against the occasional jerk that wants to claim he was never told about it and wants his dog treated for free. PLUS, the heartworm tests only pick up ADULT worms, not the juvenile stages.

I was looking at ingredients for a couple different brands. They all have a different dose/amount of Ivermectin. Looked like Heartguard had the most.

Which is the better choise?

ROTTnBRITT wrote:I was looking at ingredients for a couple different brands. They all have a different dose/amount of Ivermectin. Looked like Heartguard had the most.

Which is the better choise?

Durvet Plain Apple 1.87% Ivermectin Paste, $3.99 at Tractor Supply for at least 50 doses. 1/2 click each.

do a search for Ivermectin you will see a bunch of people purchase a bottle of Ivermectin 1% Solution for Swine or cattle though that is labeled an injectable those of us that use this route will just squirt the needed amount onto some treat or just squirt in mouth

we use 1/10 cc/ml per 10 lb body weight at this mount this will also cover round worms and some other worms but not tape worm should your dog have an altercation with fleas

This is far more cost effective then Heartguard as a 50ml will last about 100 +- doses for about 30-50 bucks for a bottle pending on where you buy it

you can also get more info about this on http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/health/ ... prevention

For the past 4 years I have used Sentinel flavor tabs monthly. Been happy with the results(no issues period). Covers whip, hook, round and heart worm plus a flea killer. Yep, I pay $140 for 12 monthly doses but at $12 per month per dog I am more than satisfied with the results. Yep. I am sure the ivo cc way is more cost effective but when it comes to heartworm I am not screwing around. $12 per dog is fine by me. -Mark

northUpland wrote:For the past 4 years I have used Sentinel flavor tabs monthly. Been happy with the results(no issues period). Covers whip, hook, round and heart worm plus a flea killer. Yep, I pay $140 for 12 monthly doses but at $12 per month per dog I am more than satisfied with the results. Yep. I am sure the ivo cc way is more cost effective but when it comes to heartworm I am not screwing around. $12 per dog is fine by me. -Mark

I use the I% and get the same thing for less than 20 cents a month.

Ezzy

northUpland wrote:For the past 4 years I have used Sentinel flavor tabs monthly. Been happy with the results(no issues period). Covers whip, hook, round and heart worm plus a flea killer. Yep, I pay $140 for 12 monthly doses but at $12 per month per dog I am more than satisfied with the results. Yep. I am sure the ivo cc way is more cost effective but when it comes to heartworm I am not screwing around. $12 per dog is fine by me. -Mark

I use to think this way until my vet told me Heartguard was a rip-off. He didn't mind telling me that because he sells very little of it now. You can put the dog at risk with Heartguard because on occasion dogs have been known to crap the chunk out whole. I have never seen Sentinel.

With a dog the size of mine, you would have to be brain dead to give to much of either the paste or liquid.

Thanks guys. That sounds pretty cheap...but is cheaper always better? It is something to consider and I will look into it for sure. We've been sticking with Sentinel because the level/possible exposure, easy to admin, and confident in the dose consistency year round. We travel to hunt a lot. During the hunt season we go to TX included a dip into Mex and run OK so the hot zones are always a concern and longer. We were also down in FL checking out Tate's heck NF. So the microcritters are more then always previlent. I feel a lot better with something that is tested and dosed accordingly. Call me crazy. I know you guys are confident in what works for your dogs and I appreciate that. This works for us so call it my own 2 cents! -Mark

northUpland wrote:Thanks guys. That sounds pretty cheap...but is cheaper always better? It is something to consider and I will look into it for sure. We've been sticking with Sentinel because the level/possible exposure, easy to admin, and confident in the dose consistency year round. We travel to hunt a lot. During the hunt season we go to TX included a dip into Mex and run OK so the hot zones are always a concern and longer. We were also down in FL checking out Tate's heck NF. So the microcritters are more then always previlent. I feel a lot better with something that is tested and dosed accordingly. Call me crazy. I know you guys are confident in what works for your dogs and I appreciate that. This works for us so call it my own 2 cents! -Mark

Its no better as it is the same thing. And Ivomec doesn't have to be refrigerated just kept in the dark.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote: Its no better as it is the same thing. And Ivomec doesn't have to be refrigerated just kept in the dark.
Ezzy

Not quite Sentinel is milbemycin oxime plus lufenuron. Milbemycin is a general wormer, but it isn't as effective against HW as Ivermectin. The lufenuron in Sentinel kills fleas.

My vet won't sell Heartguard to me without a blood test first. That's the law in Ontario. If you use Heartguard and worms are already present in the heart, you will kill the dog. They all die at once and clog up the arteries. However , if you have had your dog on Heartguard since 1 year of age, I don't see why a blood test is needed.

Sharon wrote:My vet won't sell Heartguard to me without a blood test first. That's the law in Ontario. If you use Heartguard and worms are already present in the heart, you will kill the dog. They all die at once and clog up the arteries. However , if you have had your dog on Heartguard since 1 year of age, I don't see why a blood test is needed.

Thats not exactly true, sharon. Putting a heartworm positive dog on Heartgard or some other heartworm preventitive for 3 months prior to immiticide is now standard operating procedure. it eliminates the microfilaria and renders the adults sterile, so there is less biological die-off at time of treatment. thats why i dont REQUIRE my clients to test before i sell them the stuff.

dog dr wrote:

Sharon wrote:My vet won't sell Heartguard to me without a blood test first. That's the law in Ontario. If you use Heartguard and worms are already present in the heart, you will kill the dog. They all die at once and clog up the arteries. However , if you have had your dog on Heartguard since 1 year of age, I don't see why a blood test is needed.

Thats not exactly true, sharon. Putting a heartworm positive dog on Heartgard or some other heartworm preventitive for 3 months prior to immiticide is now standard operating procedure. it eliminates the microfilaria and renders the adults sterile, so there is less biological die-off at time of treatment. thats why i dont REQUIRE my clients to test before i sell them the stuff.

Same procedure with my vet here...this has also been recommended protocol on the Heartworm association site for quite a few years now.

dog dr wrote:

Sharon wrote:My vet won't sell Heartguard to me without a blood test first. That's the law in Ontario. If you use Heartguard and worms are already present in the heart, you will kill the dog. They all die at once and clog up the arteries. However , if you have had your dog on Heartguard since 1 year of age, I don't see why a blood test is needed.

Thats not exactly true, sharon. Putting a heartworm positive dog on Heartgard or some other heartworm preventitive for 3 months prior to immiticide is now standard operating procedure. it eliminates the microfilaria and renders the adults sterile, so there is less biological die-off at time of treatment. thats why i dont REQUIRE my clients to test before i sell them the stuff.

Thank you for the clarification.

Sharon wrote:

dog dr wrote:

Sharon wrote:My vet won't sell Heartguard to me without a blood test first. That's the law in Ontario. If you use Heartguard and worms are already present in the heart, you will kill the dog. They all die at once and clog up the arteries. However , if you have had your dog on Heartguard since 1 year of age, I don't see why a blood test is needed.

Thats not exactly true, sharon. Putting a heartworm positive dog on Heartgard or some other heartworm preventitive for 3 months prior to immiticide is now standard operating procedure. it eliminates the microfilaria and renders the adults sterile, so there is less biological die-off at time of treatment. thats why i dont REQUIRE my clients to test before i sell them the stuff.

Thank you for the clarification.

That was a belief for many many years. oh also forgot my vet also gives doxycycline along with the ivermectin before treating with the basically arsenic shots more is explained here ....not sure how open your vet is but maybe ask him about his feelings on what those crazy americans do to treat their dogs with heartworm

http://www.heartwormsociety.org/veterin ... lines.html

Most treat alike but the important thing is prevention and thats what we are talking here. Treatments are rough on a dog so it becomes really important that we do our part in keeping them free.

Ezzy