food question

Post Reply
User avatar
vabrittfan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Virginia

food question

Post by vabrittfan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:15 am

I know the food question gets beat to death on here & I'm not even going to mention brands but I'm comparing 2 foods that have the same % protein & fat. They both state I should feed approximately 2 cups to a 50 lb dog. However one says the calories are 468 & one says 360 per cup. So is the 468 calories going to make my dog gain weight since it is more than the other food?
N-Vee Brittanys
(near Roanoke, VA)
http://www.nveebrittanys.com

User avatar
big steve46
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1402
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: S. Illinois

Re: food question

Post by big steve46 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:27 am

The numbers on a label may not exactly be accurate. The assimilation of the product dependingon how it's manufactured and formulated varies. That said, go primarily by how the dog looks, performs, and stools. Active dogs of 50 pounds may even require more than two cups at times.
big steve

User avatar
mcbosco
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3577
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Location: Monmouth County NJ

Re: food question

Post by mcbosco » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:01 am

There are three ways to look at calories: 1) Gross Energy, 2) Digestible Energy & 3) Metabolizable Energy

You have to compare apples to apples on the basis, as well as ingredients and where the calories come from. Even higher calories foods (600 or more calories a cup) where the source of calories is proportionally slanted towards protein and fat might actually slim your dog down.

MikeB
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: So. California

Re: food question

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:02 am

It has been my experience that most k-cal numbers listed on web sites should say what it is and is mostly Metabolizable Energy.

Yes a dog can gain weight with a higher calorie food so you have to cut the food amount back if they dog gain weight. Doesn't make the food bad.

That 2 cup = 50# dog is only a guide. If that food was Canidae I have fed a 38-40# Australian Shepherd 2 cups all her adult life and a 65# Lab family dog not a hunter 2 cups and a 75# German Shepherd 2 cups per day. It is all about how much exercise they get and their own metabolizism.

Understand that most pet foods are calculated for the family pet dog not the working dog or gun dog so you could expect to feed more or less through their life.

I hope that helps.
MikeB

User avatar
mcbosco
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3577
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Location: Monmouth County NJ

Re: food question

Post by mcbosco » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:10 am

Based on a real life experience with my mothers Cavaliers, they slimmed down on slightly more calories of Canidae ALS Grain Free vs regular Canidae ALS, proportionately more protein & fat in the former.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: food question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:27 am

mcbosco wrote:Based on a real life experience with my mothers Cavaliers, they slimmed down on slightly more calories of Canidae ALS Grain Free vs regular Canidae ALS, proportionately more protein & fat in the former.
If the dog loses weight from a feed that has more calories it tells you the dog is not metabolizing the feed as well as it does the other feed. One thing you need to pretty well forget when you are talking calories is the protein. The calories are coming from the carbs and fats while the protein is used to grow tissue and helps repairing it. That is why higher proteins are needed when the dog is young and active. But it is the carbs and fats that provide the energy.

No matter what you are feeding you have to watch the animal to tell how much they need to maintain their weight and health. Each dog will likely be different than any other. Only way to tell what a certain feed will do is feed it and you will know in a month how much you need to feed. It's the only way to tell.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
vabrittfan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: food question

Post by vabrittfan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:03 pm

Actually Canidae was one of the foods in my previous example & the other one is Taste of the Wild. The dog in question is a 5 year old Brittany who due to medical problems is unable to be as active as a normal 5 year old dog & also has managed to gain about 4 lbs in the last 1 1/2 years.

I'm trying to find a food that maybe will help him lose some weight although all of it is not weight gain as part of it is bloating from the Prednisone he is on. I've had suggestions of feeding him a high protein diet (without grains/carbs) which I know worked great for me when I was trying to drop some weight but I'm worried about those super high protein diets because of his health. I'm just really at a loss & while my vet is a great guy his idea of great nutrition is to recommend Science Diet because they do a lot of research.

Let's see Tanner has been on Pro Plan puppy then Nutro Lamb & Rice puppy which I was very happy with & weaned my last 2 litters on it. As an adult I can't remember what he went to first but at some point or another he has been on Eukanuba Wild, Blue Buffalo, Pro Plan shredded blend, Pro Plan Selects Salmon, Purina ONE reduced calorie, Wellness reduced calorie, & currently on Taste of the Wild pacific stream. The Prednisone makes him hungry all the time plus after all he is a Brittany so I have to find a balance between the amount of food as he would not at all be satisfied with 1 cup of food a day no matter how great it is. And the reduced calorie foods that allow him to get closer to 3 cups a day seem to be not as good as the other foods.

I'm just not happy with how he looks/acts on anything I've tried lately & I know part of that is his illness (IMHA) & the Prednisone he is on. Being a typical Brittany he is happy to eat anything I give him so he isn't a very good judge of what to feed.
N-Vee Brittanys
(near Roanoke, VA)
http://www.nveebrittanys.com

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: food question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:49 pm

If he only gained 4 1/2 lbs in a year all you need to do is cut him back a few pellets a day and he will be fine. I don't change feeds when a dog is getting thinner or heavier but just change the amount slightly that they get a day.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

MikeB
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: So. California

Re: food question

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:24 pm

I don't think your going to see a normal dog no matter what you choose to feed due to his disease and meds. If Salmon/Sweet Potato Grain Free is your choice and he does well on that kind of food you might look at your Costco (if you shop there) for a new food called Natures Domain Grain Free Salmon/Sweet Potato at a great price considering the pet store prices.

User avatar
jlp8cornell
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 664
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:29 pm
Location: Ithaca,NY

Re: food question

Post by jlp8cornell » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:06 pm

Proteins, fats and carbs are all metabolized differently. Higher protein (and fat) diets have a potential to slim down a dog even compared to a diet of the same caloric intake that has lower protein and fat. Protein helps build muscle.....muscle metabolizes calories a lot more efficiently.

If you want to read about how this works, check out the human diet studies concerning high protein diets and weight loss. (Atkins, South Beach)

I feed Orijen which is 40% protein. My dogs look amazing and one is an 82# Hound cross that is 11.5 yrs old. People think she is 6!

User avatar
vabrittfan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: food question

Post by vabrittfan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:18 pm

MikeB wrote:I don't think your going to see a normal dog no matter what you choose to feed due to his disease and meds. If Salmon/Sweet Potato Grain Free is your choice and he does well on that kind of food you might look at your Costco (if you shop there) for a new food called Natures Domain Grain Free Salmon/Sweet Potato at a great price considering the pet store prices.
I suspect this is part of it but I would like to find a food I could be happy with feeding him & stick with that for awhile & see how things go.
N-Vee Brittanys
(near Roanoke, VA)
http://www.nveebrittanys.com

MikeB
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: So. California

Re: food question

Post by MikeB » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:40 am

What is it with the food that your not happy with. What are you looking for your not getting out of the food?

Are the stools much different with the foods you have tried. That is usually a good judge of how the dog is digesting it.

User avatar
jetto
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:17 am

Re: food question

Post by jetto » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:52 am

I agree with Ezzy on adjusting the amount fed.
It may be overkill but I look at our dogs every day - especially the ones trialing and adjust accordingly. If it was a heavy work day like yesterday where two of them got biked for almost an hour and then we ran them and did birdwork last night they each get 1/2 cup extra in the evening meal. If it was raining and they didn't get out in the yard much or roaded they get a little less.

We are feeding Taste of the Wild to an immune compromised dog and he does well on it. He's a 75 pound Irish Setter and he gets approx. 4-1/2 cups of dog food per day. Kristi

User avatar
vabrittfan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: food question

Post by vabrittfan » Tue May 04, 2010 10:31 am

Thanks for everyone's input. His bloodwork looked good at the vet yesterday. Not well enough to start trying to wean the Prednisone again but good. The vet said especially for a dog that has been on Prednisone long-term. (going on 15 months now) However, he was also diagnosed with low thyroid & will be starting meds for that so I'm sort of back to the drawing board about a food for him.

The vet said no super high protein & low fat. Problem is everything with low fat seems to have super high protein (like Evo or Wellness Core) or pretty low protein.
N-Vee Brittanys
(near Roanoke, VA)
http://www.nveebrittanys.com

MikeB
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: So. California

Re: food question

Post by MikeB » Tue May 04, 2010 12:27 pm

I think the Vet needs to tell you what percentage he recommends for both protein and fat. Most of the grain free foods will be to high in protein/fat.

User avatar
vabrittfan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: food question

Post by vabrittfan » Tue May 04, 2010 1:59 pm

MikeB wrote:I think the Vet needs to tell you what percentage he recommends for both protein and fat. Most of the grain free foods will be to high in protein/fat.
The example he showed me was 28% protein & I think about 10% fat. Although the 28% protein seems a little high for essentially a couch potato that is overweight. I don't even think the puppy food I'm using for my new pup is that high in protein.
N-Vee Brittanys
(near Roanoke, VA)
http://www.nveebrittanys.com

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: food question

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 2:10 pm

The ratio of protein to fat will be more important to you than the actual numbers I would think. You want a low fat diet without super high protein .... hmm. how about any of the regular stream maintenance diets that are out there or for lower fat levels the "weight-loss" varieties of those brands. Personally I use the reduced amount of the same feed regimen when dogs need to loose weight. Much cheaper and certainly just as effective, but they are much lower in the fat ratio.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3616
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: food question

Post by slistoe » Tue May 04, 2010 2:13 pm

If you reduce the amount of fat that is in the food without changing anything else then the percentage of the food that is protein will increase even though the actual amount of protein in the food has remained constant - it is a larger proportion of the food because of the reduction in the other major component. So a 28/10 feed is not a "high protein" feed is is a low fat variety of the 26/14 feed.

User avatar
mcbosco
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3577
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Location: Monmouth County NJ

Re: food question

Post by mcbosco » Tue May 04, 2010 2:47 pm

You might have to cook and freeze for his requirements. Either that or add a lean protein source like turkey to a 23/10 adult formula.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: food question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 04, 2010 3:44 pm

slistoe wrote:The ratio of protein to fat will be more important to you than the actual numbers I would think. You want a low fat diet without super high protein .... hmm. how about any of the regular stream maintenance diets that are out there or for lower fat levels the "weight-loss" varieties of those brands. Personally I use the reduced amount of the same feed regimen when dogs need to loose weight. Much cheaper and certainly just as effective, but they are much lower in the fat ratio.
This is exactly the way I would go. Use a maintenance or a geriatric type feed. Bet it will work just like Slistoe said.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
mcbosco
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3577
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Location: Monmouth County NJ

Re: food question

Post by mcbosco » Tue May 04, 2010 6:53 pm

vabrittfan wrote:
MikeB wrote:I think the Vet needs to tell you what percentage he recommends for both protein and fat. Most of the grain free foods will be to high in protein/fat.
The example he showed me was 28% protein & I think about 10% fat. Although the 28% protein seems a little high for essentially a couch potato that is overweight. I don't even think the puppy food I'm using for my new pup is that high in protein.
What is it exactly you need to accomplish? I assumed it was other than weight loss since the dog has two medical problems. Is it just for weight loss?

MikeB
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: So. California

Re: food question

Post by MikeB » Tue May 04, 2010 11:06 pm

Excellent question, I was thinking the same thing. At Costco they now carry more Kirkland formulas for Senior and over weight dogs. Senior foods increase protein for muscle but keep the fat lower as most older dogs don't need it for energy. Low cal food for weight control lowers both protein and fat and increases fiber to reduce weight. Soomething to look into.

Here is CANIDAE'S Platinum formula for Senior and over weight dogs. 20/8.
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/platinum/dry.html

Diamond Naturals -
http://www.diamondpet.com/products/diam ... /dry_food/

Health Wise Weight Control
http://www.healthwisepetfood.com/produc ... =ga&id=548

INNOVA has many to choose from
http://www.naturapet.com/brands/innova.asp

Post Reply