Local feed store - three feeds

[nanney1]

Happened to be in the neighborhood with a little time to spare, so I stopped by my local feed store. The one closest to my home.

Just walked around the warehouse talking with the stock guy who runs the handtrucks and loads the feed. I asked him what he sold the most of and he said River Run Hi Pro - (bag says No Soy 27/12 - meat and bone meal based food) for $15.99 for a 50lb bag. River Run also has a 27/18, but for $23.99, and they don't sale as much of it.

He said if I was looking to fatten up a dog, I should go with the Diamond Extreme Athlete 32/25. I'm not sure what the price was... maybe $32-34 range for a 40lb bag?

Also showed me the PMI Exclusive Chicken and Rice 26/15 (Chicken and chicken meal based). $32 for a 40lb bag, but every 6 bags you buy, you get the 7th bag free. So, .69 cents a pound before tax once you get the seventh bag. Seemed like a pretty good deal for that product.

They also carry Blackwood, Black Gold, Diamond Naturals and the regular Diamond line, Country Value, and probably a few others.

I'm tempted to try the budget priced River Run Hi Pro since so many people are feeding it, but it's probably only popular due to price.

Haven't really asked a question in this post. So, any comments regarding my visit and the three different feeds that the warehouse guy pointed out?

[big steve46]

I never cared for the River Run. Of the Diamonds, I fed a lot of Diamond Premium. It's a good feed. I now feed Loyall which is a slightly better feed than any you mentioned IMHO.

[postoakshorthairs]

I fed the river run pro...which i suspect is the 23 dollar a bag feed. I liked the food, and if memory serves it's made by the same company as Loyal. The best i can say is try the river run and see how your dog does on it. Maybe they sell a lot of it because it's cheap plus dogs do well on it?

[nanney1]

Yeah, really don't know about the River Run. I've never talked personally with anyone who feeds it. But this store does a lot of business, so a lot of people in my area must like it.

[mcbosco]

Blackwood is considered a very good food. I dont know what it costs but I suspect in the 75 cents - $1 range per lb.

[nanney1]

Blackwood is considered a very good food. I dont know what it costs but I suspect in the 75 cents - $1 range per lb.

I agree. Very good product and have fed it for an extended period of time (Blackwood 2000 was what I used). I think it now goes for around $32 for a 40lb bag. I used to purchase it from this feed store, however, at one point, this store ran out and didn't know when they would get more in. Eventually, I had to buy something else as I ran out before more came in. They no longer seem to have this problem as I saw pallets full of all the different Blackwood varieties.

[mcbosco]

It is co-packed by Ohio Pet Foods which has a sterling reputation as far as I know. 7000 looks interesting if the dog is very active.
It is very hard to find on the East Coast.

[big steve46]

River Run and Loyall are both made by Carghil Nutrena. Loyall is a fairly new line made near KC which is their main plant. We have a Nutrena plant here, but I'm not sure if that's where they make River Run.

[mcbosco]

River Run No Soy
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amounts Daily*
Toy Breeds 5 - 15 lbs. 1 - 2 cups
Small 15 - 25 lbs. 2 - 4 cups
Medium 25 - 45 lbs. 4 - 6 cups
Large 45 - 80 lbs. 6 - 10 cups

I realize that these are guidelines but they tell a story. I can't imagine feeding any dog this much kibble let alone picking it all up. $15.99 a bag doesn't seem like a great deal if you have to feed 3 or 4 times as much food.

[big steve46]

River Run No Soy
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amounts Daily*
Toy Breeds 5 - 15 lbs. 1 - 2 cups
Small 15 - 25 lbs. 2 - 4 cups
Medium 25 - 45 lbs. 4 - 6 cups
Large 45 - 80 lbs. 6 - 10 cups

I realize that these are guidelines but they tell a story. I can't imagine feeding any dog this much kibble let alone picking it all up. $15.99 a bag doesn't seem like a great deal if you have to feed 3 or 4 times as much food.

Your point is well taken. With River Run, you would have to feed at least twice as much feed as you would a good quality feed. River Run at 21-8 just doesn't cut it. At least Nutrena had the smarts to develop another line, Loyall, which is of superior quality and is actually less expensive since you have to feed much less. There are many other good feeds other than Loyall which would be similar.

There's an old saying, "If all else fails, THINK!"

[Crashola]

River Run No Soy
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amounts Daily*
Toy Breeds 5 - 15 lbs. 1 - 2 cups
Small 15 - 25 lbs. 2 - 4 cups
Medium 25 - 45 lbs. 4 - 6 cups
Large 45 - 80 lbs. 6 - 10 cups

I realize that these are guidelines but they tell a story. I can't imagine feeding any dog this much kibble let alone picking it all up. $15.99 a bag doesn't seem like a great deal if you have to feed 3 or 4 times as much food.

Good lord. My old golden would have been in the 10-cup range. A dog owner would need own a skid loader to pick up all of the waste.

[kninebirddog]

A toy breed 1-2 cups I have a 7 lb silky and there is no way she could eat a cup of food she would explode

she eats about 1/4 cup of the loyall Performance a day

my britts eat about 2 - 2 1/2 cups of the loyall performance

the active pointers eat about 3 cups of the performance

I think the worst feed we tried was some stuff called buckeye their so call top of the line stuff we were feeding 6-8 plus cups and the dogs were loosing more weight then they even could consume in a day was some awful stuff

[mcbosco]

River Run No Soy
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amounts Daily*
Toy Breeds 5 - 15 lbs. 1 - 2 cups
Small 15 - 25 lbs. 2 - 4 cups
Medium 25 - 45 lbs. 4 - 6 cups
Large 45 - 80 lbs. 6 - 10 cups

I realize that these are guidelines but they tell a story. I can't imagine feeding any dog this much kibble let alone picking it all up. $15.99 a bag doesn't seem like a great deal if you have to feed 3 or 4 times as much food.

Good lord. My old golden would have been in the 10-cup range. A dog owner would need own a skid loader to pick up all of the waste.

Well not for long, because any large breed, deep chested dog that eats that much dry food is surely gonna bloat at some point.

[jlp8cornell]

River Run No Soy
Size of Dog Weight of Dog Amounts Daily*
Toy Breeds 5 - 15 lbs. 1 - 2 cups
Small 15 - 25 lbs. 2 - 4 cups
Medium 25 - 45 lbs. 4 - 6 cups
Large 45 - 80 lbs. 6 - 10 cups

I realize that these are guidelines but they tell a story. I can't imagine feeding any dog this much kibble let alone picking it all up. $15.99 a bag doesn't seem like a great deal if you have to feed 3 or 4 times as much food.

Wow! My almost 12 yr old Hound cross who is 83# would eat >10 cups?? She eats 3 cups of Orijen now. And getting 8 cups into Max would be a feat! He barely can down 3 in a day. And the bloat issues with a dog eating that much......yikes.

[jlp8cornell]

Interesting that on the site there is no info on guaranteed analysis, ingredients, etc.

[ezzy333]

I am amazed that all of you knowledgeable dog owners are willing to take a feed table as gospel but just can't bring yourself to agree with anything else the big bad company people put on the bag. I agree those are awfully big but interestingly several people said they fed it and liked it as it did a good job for their dogs. Wonder which is the better info?

Connecting the amount of feed a dog eats with bloat is a stretch also, though it has been suggested as a contributing factor of the twisted gut, if the dog is given hard exercise too soon after feeding. So since we know this we don't take them out and run them right after feeding. And of course there has to be gas produced and that happens when a feed is digested. A small amount of feed will easily produce enough gas if there is a blockage where it can't escape.

Rather than jump all over the gidelines of how much too feed why don't we first get acquainted with how a dog does on the feed and what the overall cost is? Of course, this would eliminate a lot of conversation on this board and the internet as well which in turn could effect our whole economy. :roll:

Happy typing everyone,

Ezzy

[3Britts]

I don't know about all of you, but I just simply don't trust any dog food that is too good a price. Unless there is a one of a kind sale on the product. I'll stick with Kirkland c&r at $25 per 40# bag. My dogs have always performed well on it and have great looking coats and skin. Why change when it works?

[mcbosco]

I am amazed that all of you knowledgeable dog owners are willing to take a feed table as gospel but just can't bring yourself to agree with anything else the big bad company people put on the bag. I agree those are awfully big but interestingly several people said they fed it and liked it as it did a good job for their dogs. Wonder which is the better info?

Connecting the amount of feed a dog eats with bloat is a stretch also, though it has been suggested as a contributing factor of the twisted gut, if the dog is given hard exercise too soon after feeding. So since we know this we don't take them out and run them right after feeding. And of course there has to be gas produced and that happens when a feed is digested. A small amount of feed will easily produce enough gas if there is a blockage where it can't escape.

Rather than jump all over the gidelines of how much too feed why don't we first get acquainted with how a dog does on the feed and what the overall cost is? Of course, this would eliminate a lot of conversation on this board and the internet as well which in turn could effect our whole economy. :roll:

Happy typing everyone,

Ezzy

Al, that is squarely aimed at me i know...please read what I wrote. As for bloat, you are totally wrong. Almost all dogs that bloat have some degree of connective tissue and muscle damage around the stomach, no question related to carrying around a stomach full of heavy food.

Anyway you are a lone wolf on this one.

[ezzy333]

I am amazed that all of you knowledgeable dog owners are willing to take a feed table as gospel but just can't bring yourself to agree with anything else the big bad company people put on the bag. I agree those are awfully big but interestingly several people said they fed it and liked it as it did a good job for their dogs. Wonder which is the better info?


Al, that is squarely aimed at me i know...please read what I wrote. As for bloat, you are totally wrong. Almost all dogs that bloat have some degree of connective tissue and muscle damage around the stomach, no question related to carrying around a stomach full of heavy food.

Anyway you are a lone wolf on this one.

Don't think I am a lone wolf as I agree that if those figures are accurate as to how nuch it would take to maintain a dog then the feed is probably lacking something. But to jump on them while ignoring the ones that really mean something seems a little strange to me in the light of conflicting evidence that is actual experience.

As for bloat, I think we are all in agreement it is a serious problem since it can be fatal but if you follow prescribed management procedure it is a rather rare and preventable problem and is not one of the things most of us even consider when deciding what to feed or how much.

Sal, since you were one of the quilty ones my post was aimed sqaurely at you along with the several others who jumped on the band wagon. So you will have to settle as being just one of the small crowd this time.

And even though it is good to be aware and concerned about info on dog food bags we do need to wait sometimes and get actual info about how the feed performs before we pass too harsh a judgement on it and spread it all over the internet.

But this has little bearing on my own opinion but I do like to have personal experience and knowledge before I play the part of advising people of the quality of a feed. That is exactly why I don't critize any of you for feeding what you do if it is working for your dog. And it always seems strange to me to have you tell me what I feed is bad when I have the evidence here in the kennel it work and works well. So I try hard to give everyone else that same leeway. It is ok to read the bag but a judgement on the feeds performance needs to come after you have used the feed and not from what you read or heard over the net.

Anyway, it's not a real big problem but thought maybe it was good to remind everyone not to jump on the band wagon before we know where it is going.

JMO
Ezzy

[gspmo1]

I was feeding Loyall for a while, seemed like a good feed but I thought it was a little pricey considering the ingredeant list, plus it was hard to come by here. I have tried several of the Diamond lines and have not been happy with any of them.

I have been feeding Black for the last 6 months, very happy with it and the dogs love it and are doing great! (Wont be trying anything else)

[nanney1]

I was feeding Loyall for a while, seemed like a good feed but I thought it was a little pricey considering the ingredeant list, plus it was hard to come by here. I have tried several of the Diamond lines and have not been happy with any of them.

I have been feeding Black for the last 6 months, very happy with it and the dogs love it and are doing great! (Wont be trying anything else)

gspmo1: can you clarify what you're feeding? I assume you meant to say Black Gold... If so, which formula or bag color are you feeding?

[gspmo1]

Sorry about that, yes I have been feeding Black Gold. I have mainly using the Blue bag 24/20 formula. I can cut down way on the amount being fed during the off season and the dogs still are holding their weight and dont seem overly hungry come feeding time. Very little waste is a plus and I pay $23.00 for a 50lb bag.

Here is a link to it:http://blackgolddogfood.com/field.htm

I have also noticed they show a digestibility % on their feeds, I have not seen it on any other feeds, so I'm not sure how its figured but 92% seems good. Maybe someone with a little more insight could explain that.

[nanney1]

Sent an email to Nutrena regarding the feeding amounts of the River Run 27/12 Hi-Pro No Soy. Ended up speaking with their local rep by phone and had a good conversation. He said that he felt the amount of cups listed on the bag was too high.

He currently feeds their 21/8 adult maintenance to his 7 year old Blue Heeler/Border Collie mix that has a moderate activity level. He said he feeds 2 cups per day to this 55lb dog and thinks that he might could feed a little less.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein Min. 27.0%
Crude Fat Min. 12.0%
Crude Fiber Max. 4.5%
Moisture Max. 12.0%
INGREDIENTS: MEAT AND BONE MEAL(PORCINE) COOKED YELLOW CORN, RICE BRAN, WHEAT MIDDLING, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, HYDROLYZED ANIMAL FAT (STABILIZED WITH B H T), DIGEST OF POULTRY BY-PRODUCTS, SALT, VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN E SUPPLEMENT, BITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, MENADIONE SODIUM BISULFITE COMPLEX, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT, NIACIN SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE, BIOTIN, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, CALCIUM CARBONATE, FERROUS SULFATE, COBALT CARBONATE, COPPER OXIDE, MANGANOUS OXIDE, ZINC OXIDE, SODIUM SELENITE, EHTYLENEDIAMINE DIHYDRIODIDE, BROWN IRON OXIDE.

[big steve46]

I fed a bag of River Run years ago, and was not impressed. I feed Nutrena's better line Loyall now. I feed Active adult which is less than $30 for 40 pounds. It is efficiently used, fewer stools, good coats, and good energy. Of course, as I have stated many times, most dogs do well on most good feeds. I like Loyall also because the dogs need less of it to do well.

[birddog1968]

I feed the diamond EA to 4 pointers and they are all doing great on it....its dense
feed and I feed alot less of it than other feeds I have used....that amounts to making it cheaper than alot of other feeds.

[nanney1]

Went back to the local feed store on Friday. Spoke with a new warehouse guy and asked what he liked there. He recommended the River Run Hi-Pro No Soy 27/12. Said it was their best buy and best seller at the store over all of their many other feeds. Told me he fed two 12 oz solo cups per day to his three large Border Collies. So, essentially, three 8 oz cups for his 70lb dogs. Also showed me what the kibble looked like and it was a small round kibble. He said he liked it because it seemed to go further than some of the other products he had tried. So, I'm guessing the recommended amount is way high.

I decided to give it a shot and started mixing it in gradually this weekend. I like to try different foods of varying ingredients and cost. We'll see....

[birddog1968]

Just worth consideration but folks who state activity levels for there dogs is a very subjective thing, one persons medium is another couch potato....bears considering when speaking with people about how much they feed to what.

3 cups of 27/12 would probably have my pointers petering out pretty quick.....or at least loosing weight with their normal workouts and hunts.....

That guaranteed analysis above would make me look for another feed....do they list a Kcal/cup number?

This to me is a much better looking list.

Ingredients:
Chicken meal, chicken, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, cracked pearled barley, powdered cellulose, beet pulp, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 32.0%, Crude Fat (min.) 25.0%, Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min.) 3.5%, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.) 0.5%, Moisture (max.) 10.0%, Crude Fiber (max.) 4.0%, Sodium (max.) 0.3%, Zinc (min.) 150 mg/kg, Selenium (min.) 0.4 mg/kg, Vitamin E (min.) 150 IU/kg, Glucosamine Hydrochloride (min.) 300 mg/kg, Chondroitin Sulfate (min.) 100 mg/kg.

Caloric Content:
4,710 kcal/kg (470 kcal/cup).

[KFhunter]

I tried kirkland performance, couldn't get the dog to eat it and I felt she was way too skinny, not sure we got thru a full bag of it

switched to loyall active dog, she eats it, or rather tolerates it still skinny. I've got probably 4-5 bags of this stuff thru her, not really happy with it as her skin seems dry and flakey to me and the coat isn't top notch either. I give her a bath once in ahwile and the hair ends almost seem split

she's 2 now and getting a bit lazy around the house, sleeping a lot. right now she's got some sorta lump on her side the vets think seroma, back on the anti-biotics. At least she's finally putting on some weight, vets scale read 28lbs

went today to get some more dog food, out of loyal active
they suggested diamond lamb rice

not sure about the lamb and rice, my thinking is I'd mix it with the loyal I got left and perhaps she might get something thats not in the loyal food


funny thing is I fed her some western family performance and she scarfed that down like it was a bacon sandwich, it was some emergency food at the folks house I had to run to the gas station to get.

[nanney1]

My dogs seem to do well on about anything I've tried over the years. Just a reminder, I don't hunt and my dogs aren't high energy sporting breeds. I have a 2 1/2 year old Bernese Mtn. Dog bitch and an 8 month old Boxer mix. Both are what I would consider moderate activity level for pet dogs. Compared with dogs in training or dogs that hunt regularly, mine would be couch potatoes.

I mixed in small amounts of the new, gradually increasing over the weekend. Today, is their first day with just the new food.

So far, they seem to like it a lot, as they do with any new food. And, no digestive upset.

As for whether this food would work well for a dog that is being worked, trained, or hunted heavily, I have no idea.

[whiterock]

I work in the petfood industry. Also breed, hunt, guide a string of dogs. Random thoughts:

Blackwood or PMI Exclusive would be my pick of the foods recommended in the list given in first post. Blackwood reads better, but the protein/fat ratio in the 7000 is quirky. Typically, one would want to see a 10 point spread, give or take a point. Get spreads closer or wider than that and things can get hard to balance in feedability. I always urge avoiding the 24/20 type rations. (apologies in advance to everyone here who feeds them and likes the results.) PMI rats initially had lactobacillus added in, but it appears to have dropped off the label. That would be a cost management action that reduced digestibility.

Two of the most important things to look for on an ingredient list are proteinated minerals and digestive enzymes (e.g. lactobacilllus in the Blackwood.) They REALLY matter. 100% proteinated is better than a mix of proteinates and sulfates & oxides, and the more digestive enzymes the better. But at the price points of the foods in question (low $30's) one is not likely to find 100% proteinates and more than one enzyme.

Real meat first or second on the list is also a big advantage. Adds palatability and lowers ash.

Co-packed foods are also a factor. PMI is made by diamond (not a postive in my book) but the company selling the product (Purina Mills) is reputable enough to have adequate quality control measures in place. PMI rats also have the advantage of being widely available at any purina feed store, a big plus when you're travelling and run out of food.

Price is also a fairly good measure. Petfoods are made from commodities, which trade on open mkts, which means nobody gets a tremendous cost advantage in raw materials. A $35 bag of food has things in it (which matter) that a $25/bag lacks. And as a general rule, if you aren't spending at least $1.0/lb on petfoods, you are buying "price-point" oriented rations rather than "quality first" rations.

YMMV

I

[nanney1]

For the record, I am not expecting this food (River Run Hi-Pro 27/12) to be the greatest thing I've ever fed. But if you never try it, you'll never know. Over the years, I've fed every category of food from premium to super premium, to feed store brands. Just about everything has worked well for the most part. Even the cheaper brands. I've fed some products for a year or longer and some for just a couple of bags.

If my dogs do poorly on this food, I'll just switch out. No big deal. And if they do great on this food, I'll probably give something else a try just because I like to try different stuff every now and then.

[birddog1968]

its not the best thing to keep switching a dogs diet......

[nanney1]

its not the best thing to keep switching a dogs diet......

I would agree with your statement based on what I've read and heard over the years, however, with my own dogs, I haven't experienced any problems. Maybe I've been lucky.

[nanney1]

Update. I'm on my third bag of the River Run Hi Pro No Soy 27/12. I was previously feeding my Bernese 4 cups per day of the previous food I used. I was feeding the growing Boxer mix around 4 1/2 cups per day. The food I previously used was Sportsman's Pride 26/18 Premium Adult.

O.K. on the River Run 27/12... no digestive upset during transition or after. Solid, firm stools, never loose. Dogs have good energy, no problems with skin or coat, etc... Now, I am feeding more of the River Run food than the Sportsman's Pride. But nothing like the bag recommendations that were previously posted. My Bernese is in the 85-90lb range and the Boxer mix, now 9 1/2 months old is around 80lbs. They both eat 6 cups per day, 3 in the am and 3 cups in the evening.

Is 6 cups a lot?, well yeah, probably a little more than I would like to have to feed, but not the 10 cup recommendation that was posted from the bag guidelines for an 80lb dog. However, the 50 lb bag of River Run is $15.99, while the 50lb bag of Sportsman's Pride was $21.25, so it kind of evens out. In no way, am I truly trying to make a comparison of these two foods. It just happens to be that Sportsman's Pride was the last kibble I fed before River Run so a comparison is somewhat inevitable.

I have greater stool output with the River Run which is to be expected since they are eating more of the food. With Sportsman's Pride, the stool was dark and turned black, making it easy to avoid stepping in and easy to find and scoop. With River Run, the stool is a light tan that doesn't turn any darker. With the dull winter grass covered in leaves and dead pine needles, it is very difficult to notice the light tan droppings, making it easy to step in and hard to find when you're trying to scoop. Plus the added volume means more of it. A slight gripe, but a gripe nonetheless.

Overall, I'm satisfied with the product and it is more convenient for me to purchase than what I previously fed. However, the main reason I tried it was to see if a budget priced food would do as well as other foods I've fed. The food does the job for my non-performance pets, but with the added amounts to feed, it negates the cost savings in comparison to what I was feeding previously which was also a lower priced food ($21.25 for 50lbs). In comparison to some other higher priced foods, I've fed, such as Pro Plan ($40 for 35lbs), the River Run is still a much better value. Yes, I feed more, but still save dollars in comparison.

[kj]

whiterock,

Are you sure that PMI Exlusive is made by Diamond? That is the first I have heard of that.

Thanks.