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Lupoid Dermatosis

Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:48 am

As far as I know, no dog in my dog's line has ever had LD. I would, however, like to step out front and have my dog tested before I breed him again.

So, does anyone know how one goes about getting a dog tested?
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby mcbosco » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:57 am

Greg, the National Club should have that info as well as a registry & database.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby ACooper » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:04 pm

http://www.gspchronicle.com/LupoidDerma ... 120809.pdf

Here is the submission form.

Any dog that I plan to breed in the future will be tested.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:13 pm

Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for. I'll get it done when we go in next week.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby CherrystoneWeims » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:28 pm

Good for you, Greg! I applaud anyone who is up front and willing to have their dogs genetically tested for diseases that can occur in various breeds.

I also encourage everyone to help your breed club in any research that is ongoing in your breed. I recently submitted blood samples and radiographs for an ongoing HOD study in Weimaraners. Sadly we are having trouble finding puppies who are not affected with the disease. I'm happy to say that my pup that I submitted is totally clear!
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:35 pm

The form is all filled out and already at the vet's office to prepare them. Exam is a week from today.

If anyone has a dog that has been tested and wants to be listed, send me results in some verifiable form and I'll start posting them.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Dave Quindt » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:48 pm

Greg,

I'd start by talking to Katie Tazza, who is the breed club liaison with the UPENN folks and has been kept up to date with their experiences and observations regarding lines of carriers. Contrary to the beliefs of some, we do have a good bit of info regarding which lines have produced the disease and which ones do not.

Nothing wrong with having a dog tested just because there is a test, but I'd ask why are you testing for just LD and not cone degeneration as well?

The "if there is a test, then you must test" standard isn't realistic over the long term; the scientists will continue to develop tests for more and more diseases of varying frequency and severity. At some point it's going to be financially unfeasible to test every breeding dog in the breed for every new test that's developed.

JMO,
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:02 pm

I'm an engineer by trade and training with extensive experience in safety-critical systems. So, I'm pretty good with the theory and practice of testing. The bottom line is that you can never test fully and are reduced to using judgement as to what to test.

Based on my judgement informed by risk, vulnerability, cost, opportunity, etc., I've had Gunner tested for several things. They are on his PP page if you care to look. When something bubbles to the surface, as this has, and I have the opportunity and bucks to get it done, I probably will.

Frankly, Dave, I'd think you'd be the LAST person poking someone in the eyes about getting a dog that is being bred tested for lupoid. I'm struggling to understand your motivation.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Dave Quindt » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Greg,

I apologize if you took something the wrong way; and I clearly didn't phrase my post very well.

I have no problem with anyone having a dog tested, as long as they understand for a HUGE % of the breed there is little chance of their dog being a carrier. For most of the breed, it's a "needle in a haystack" test. I guess I wish we could be honest about what segments of the breed need to be tested first, before we set the expectation that every dog needs to be tested. In my dog's case, a test wouldn't have done any good as those involved are convinced that if the parents have no skin issues, there's no way they can pass a skin disease to their pups. Had they been honest with themselves and each other, they could have avoided us a lot of pain and agony.

But what do I know; I'm nothing more than a "putative Internet expert".

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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:33 pm

I understand the odds. I understand and am comfortable with the fact that he's not going to make a huge impact on the GSP world. Lastly, I'm not even a putative internet expert. I'm a duffer. OTOH, I believe in leading from the front and fate has given me the means to do so.

Now, if they come up with a genetic test for being a mischievious little rascal with a blind hatred of skunks and a fetish for eating brassieres....
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby AHGSP » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:16 pm

Good on ya for doing the Test Greg, though I'd bet dollars to donuts that it's not even a concern within the lines you have.

Dave,
I for one appreciate your honesty and it's a real shame that, as usual, there are those in the breed that wish to quash any conversation as such that should be put out there, because of what dogs it might implicate. I think it's become a pretty well known fact among those that have done the research and have talked to those that do know(from the horses mouth if you will), that what you state is an accurate truth.
Just like CD, lines that have proven to be carriers and in some cases seem to be where it originated, are not discussed FOR A REASON and the MAIN REASON is that it might implicate a few GSPCA HOF dogs that were used a fair amount on the Show side from very specific lines. Dogs that made an impact on the Breed, both good and bad. I don't think it should really matter so much what dogs are implicated as being an at risk blood line, as much as if they are in your Pedigree and a person knows that info, they can Test for the known issues where there is a Test.

I find it funny that we have so many Yellow dogs showing up and the fact that those in the know about certain lines, REQUIRE a Genetic Coat Color Test before they'll breed to a bitch that contains certain dogs in the Ped, but those actually producing these Yellow's often have no knowledge to do this Testing until after it's too late. A little open dialogue could be helping to prevent some of these Yellow's IMO. Reputations and ego's be dammed.

Sorry to derail Greg, just a bit of a peeve.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:31 pm

I've talked with Dave offline. I now understand his motivation. At the risk of miss-stating, Dave wants people to make use of information that's available before spending their hard-earned money on the LD marker test. That is a laudable position and I concur with his position.

I'm highly confident that my dog does not carry LD. Otherwise, I would not have bred him. On the other hand, riding as high in the water as I do here on GDF, I feel a responsibility to have my Gunner tested.

This is a simple recessive folks. Let's put our egos aside and do the right thing. Get with the GSPCA-UPenn liason that Dave mentioned before breeding.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby snips » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:56 am

We sent in swabs on all our dogs awhile back. We did not think it was in our lines either, but for research sake felt it was the right thing to do.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:29 am

Gunner's check came back 1-1. That means he's not a carrier.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby ACooper » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:12 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Gunner's check came back 1-1. That means he's not a carrier.


That was fast!
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:43 pm

It's easy as pie. It just costs $75. The disease is very rare. People should probably check with the GSPCA contact before spending the bucks on the test. For me, it was worth it to do the test while he was already at the vet.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby larue » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:46 pm

I just recieved eva's (foxglove Fire and Ice) report and she came back as negative.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:06 am

So I have been reading about this and have a few questions, the GSPCA came out in an article and said that just because a dog is a carrier that should not rule out that dog from being bred. As long as the pups are tested and the carriers are identified so that they are not bred. What are your thoughts on breeding a dog that is a carrier?
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby ACooper » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:26 am

If you're knowingly breeding carriers, you are doing the breed an injustice.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 am

If you breed a carrier to a non-carrier only like 20% would then be carriers, the other 80% would be non-carriers. You could eliminate the carriers from a breeding program fairly quickly. Here is the article that I read. http://www.gspca.org/Health/Downloads/C ... suesLD.pdf
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Cajun Casey » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:39 am

You have to breed carriers to avoid bottlenecking. No different than EIC in Labs or PRA in Irish setters. Have they ever identified a gene on LD or is the test still for a marker? I've always felt it was a hepatic issue rather than integumentary.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Dirtysteve » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:41 am

Josh I have tested my dogs and they were all Normal/Negative. I wouldn't be concerned about a carrier to a non carrier but wouldn't think of breeding two carriers.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby ACooper » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:43 am

I get what you meant about carrier x non- carrier. I still think carriers should not be breed. Why not breed non carriers and not have to worry about the pups that are carriers? I feel different if the GSP gene pool wasn't so large.
Last edited by ACooper on Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:46 am

For sure Brandon carrier-to-carrier would be bad in my opinion, but carrier to non-carrier would still produce over 80% non-carrier pups. My dog is not a carrier, but just doing some research on some other dogs.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:00 am

Cajun Casey wrote:You have to breed carriers to avoid bottlenecking. No different than EIC in Labs or PRA in Irish setters. Have they ever identified a gene on LD or is the test still for a marker? I've always felt it was a hepatic issue rather than integumentary.


Cajun I have the article that I posted, it seems to have some pretty good info.

ACooper wrote:I get what you meant about carrier x non- carrier. I still think carriers should not be breed. Why not breed non carriers and not have to worry about the pups that are carriers? I feel different if the GSP gene pool wasn't so large.


I understand that issue, but you can have non-carriers after just one breeding. I would hate to see someone passing up on breeding to a HOF dog just because he is a carrier, that would be an injustice to the breed also. Obviously it would require more testing and hand holding to make sure you get the pups tested to identify what ones are carriers and what ones are not.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Cajun Casey » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:38 am

Elkhunter wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:You have to breed carriers to avoid bottlenecking. No different than EIC in Labs or PRA in Irish setters. Have they ever identified a gene on LD or is the test still for a marker? I've always felt it was a hepatic issue rather than integumentary.


Cajun I have the article that I posted, it seems to have some pretty good info.

ACooper wrote:I get what you meant about carrier x non- carrier. I still think carriers should not be breed. Why not breed non carriers and not have to worry about the pups that are carriers? I feel different if the GSP gene pool wasn't so large.


I understand that issue, but you can have non-carriers after just one breeding. I would hate to see someone passing up on breeding to a HOF dog just because he is a carrier, that would be an injustice to the breed also. Obviously it would require more testing and hand holding to make sure you get the pups tested to identify what ones are carriers and what ones are not.

If it's the latest from GSPCA, I have seen it. Thanks, though. You might paste or link it here, also. Breeding carriers of recessive traits is pretty much accepted practicw if all other systems are go. I have a friend who has a PRA carrier bitch that she and the stud owner actually had a dog fifteen years dead cleared of the disease so they could do the breeding. The test was done from an AI straw.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:40 am

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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby snips » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:05 pm

I think this article came out after quite a few dogs were cropping up as carriers that were very questionable. I think there is even some question as to how accurate the test actually is. After reading the article it opened up my thinking a little, but it has to be brought to the attention to anyone that would possibly be breeding in the future to do checks so a carrier is not bred to a carrier.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:24 pm

I spoke with Dr. Casal at UPENN about this morning, and she said all the hysteria about this is way off base. She even said if she owned a dog that was a carrier and it had the characteristics that she liked she would have no problem breeding that dog, just ensuring that it was not bred to another carrier. She said it is really not that big of a deal, she is sending me a lot of info on it so if anyone is interested I can forward just PM your info.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Greg Jennings » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:33 pm

I originally started this thread to raise awareness of the issue. I hope that it was successful.

I will stir the pot further:

My own personal ethics are such that no matter how terrific the dog, I would neither breed nor buy a dog with a known recessive gene for a fatal disease like LD.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:47 pm


Greg Jennings wrote:My own personal ethics.


I can somewhat understand that, I don't necessarily agree with the term "ethics" because that would insinuate that breeding a dog that is a carrier would be "unethical".


Note carefully that I said "personal ethics". Meaning, my own, personal, ethical values. Not anyone else's. Everyone else is welcome to their own ethical values.

But, come on now, the disease is fatal. The number of carriers is very small. The GSP gene pool is very deep and wide. It's a simple recessive....
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:22 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Elkhunter wrote: have heard multiple times that it is not that big of a deal at all. Not too mention that is only if the dog is going to be bred, so if the dog is never planned on being bred the whole carrier gene is a non-issue.


If a carrier is spayed and not bred no big deal. Remember thou one of the parents of this dog had to be a carrier in order for the pup to carry the gene recessive.
I would not breed knowing a dog carries the recessive gene.

Elkhunter wrote:Not too mention I am sure that there are multiple recessive genes that cause all sorts of diseases or problems in our dogs now that we are not even aware of at this moment.


We can identify Loupoid that's the differance


Howie if we only bred "the perfect dog" we would never be able to breed a dog. You can easily breed carrier x non-carrier and identify those that are non-carriers and perpetuate great GSP lines without promoting the LD gene. If we were to exterminate every line that has in the past shown a particular trait or gene that we don't want, do you think that would be a positive to the breed in the long run? The experts that I have talked to have shown me many examples of how that did not work at all. The questions could be endless, what about lines that historically produce cancer, it is fatal. Do we exterminate those lines? Every time a new genetic flaw is discovered do we eliminate that line also. I think responsible/ethical breeding is the key and promoting that non-carriers are then moved to be bred to further that specific line, not eliminating the line completely. JMO
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby ACooper » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:48 pm

There are non-carriers in the lines that have been shown to be carriers, not breeding carriers doesn't automatically rule out any particular lines.

Elk hunter you gave a Hypothetical example of breeding to an NFC that is a carrier, what if the NFC had a littermate brother that was not a carrier? Would that be a viable option?
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:09 pm

ACooper wrote:There are non-carriers in the lines that have been shown to be carriers, not breeding carriers doesn't automatically rule out any particular lines.

Elk hunter you gave a Hypothetical example of breeding to an NFC that is a carrier, what if the NFC had a littermate brother that was not a carrier? Would that be a viable option?


It is a scenario for sure, but Michael Jordan has a brother we never heard of. I want Michael Jordan, not his brother! :D And to reiterate I am not saying that I am promoting producing carriers and putting them out there for people to breed. I am talking about breeding and selecting those that are not carriers and perpetuating those lines through the non-carriers. It just seems after I talked with Dr. Casal and was educated on exactly what it is, how it works and how it effects the breed it seems pretty small. But then I get on here and there is almost a hysteria about the LD gene. I will continue to research it out and make decisions as it gets closer, I am glad this topic has been discussed because I hope more people get educated on it.

And your still welcome to come hunt chukars with me! :D
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby DGFavor » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:38 am

Good to see more folks getting educated on this - history typically illustrates thats the best way to break up a witch hunt!! :lol: :lol:

Only thing I don't feel is quite correct Josh is this:
I am talking about breeding and selecting those that are not carriers and perpetuating those lines through the non-carriers.


Obviously if we're OK breeding exemplary specimens that are carriers now, there's a good chance we may want to breed exemplary specimens/progeny that might also be carriers in the future - no real reason to exclude them, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. The point of the whole deal is disease avoidance which becomes essentially a non-issue with the available testing IMO. Of all the variables we evaluate/consider/fret over when considering a bird dog for a possible breeding specimen, it's hard to find any variable that is as black/white, yes/no, go/no go as this - don't breed carriers to carriers. Next question. :wink:
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby bruns333 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:30 am

I know this thread has been silent for years. I am looking for future stud dogs and I am having a hard time finding ones that have been tested for LD and are clear. My bitch is clear for LD, so I could breed her to dogs that have not been tested, but would prefer ones that are clear also. I really feel like stud dog that are used multiple times should have to have this done just like DNA. This disease could be mostly eradicated pretty quickly if this was done. I think dogs can be CHIC certified without the LD test being done(seems strange to me). I also think the health testing databased need to be merged and if you submit any type of health test it must be published for all to see. Anyone have thoughts or new information?

Matt

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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm

I don't think Draconian reporting requirements are the answer. LD is a mote complex disease than originally thought, I believe. There are a couple of dogs that have survives to middle age with it.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby bruns333 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:46 pm

Cajun Casey what is Draconian about my health testing desires? Can you be more specific?
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby bruns333 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:48 pm

Most don't make it until 6 years old and they have lost their hair and require coats to protect their skin from the sun. I didn't say anything about it not being complex. The more information we have the faster we can all get rid of it for our breed.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:17 pm

bruns333 wrote:Cajun Casey what is Draconian about my health testing desires? Can you be more specific?

Requiring FUS dogs to be tested.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby bruns333 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:20 am

What health testing do you think a FUS should have?
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Cajun Casey » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:23 am

bruns333 wrote:What health testing do you think a FUS should have?

That's up to the owner based on the pedigree and their goals. CHIC has it pretty well covered. I think cardio is highly overlooked in non-CHIC dogs.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm

I bred to a carrier last spring, had 9 pups. 3 were carriers and 6 non carriers. All pups doing great!
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby DGFavor » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:47 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I bred to a carrier last spring, had 9 pups. 3 were carriers and 6 non carriers. All pups doing great!


I had pick of the litter - I picked a carrier knowing it didn't matter a dang bit. 6 months old pointing sharpies:
Image

If she's a star and makes the grade, she'll get bred to a non-carrier. Simple deal practicing diligence, responsibility and honesty.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby hi-tailyn » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:57 pm

The Rusty line has been a carrier of LD. from past tests of offspring. Where would we be if we wouldn't have bred to him? 8)

Goes to prove that it is best Not to completely remove such great dogs from the breeding program. 8)
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby wems2371 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:17 pm

As a side note, if you would like to follow living shorthairs that have lupus, there is a page on Facebook titled Pongo German Shorthair Pointer Lupus. It follows Pongo's journey and there are a couple other shorthairs recently added to the group, including 7 month old "Cookie" from Australia.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Highway Ends Kennel » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:12 am

I agree that carriers can be bred to non-carriers in order to improve certain desirable traits that might not be as available in other lines. The problem/concern I have is how do you guarantee one of the carrier pups that is born is never bred to another carrier down the road? Even if you can avoid that, how do you guarantee that the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. generation offspring that are carriers are never breed to another carrier? I know that all of the pups would not be carriers but there’s a good chance a few pups in each litter would carry the recessive gene. It seems like at some point you would have to neuter or fix any carrier off-spring in the litters to guarantee that the recessive LD gene is not passed on or worse, that two carriers are not bred down the road resulting in off-spring afflicted with the disease.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby DGFavor » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:06 am

I agree that carriers can be bred to non-carriers in order to improve certain desirable traits that might not be as available in other lines. The problem/concern I have is how do you guarantee one of the carrier pups that is born is never bred to another carrier down the road? Even if you can avoid that, how do you guarantee that the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. generation offspring that are carriers are never breed to another carrier? I know that all of the pups would not be carriers but there’s a good chance a few pups in each litter would carry the recessive gene. It seems like at some point you would have to neuter or fix any carrier off-spring in the litters to guarantee that the recessive LD gene is not passed on or worse, that two carriers are not bred down the road resulting in off-spring afflicted with the disease


No doubt humans are the weak link in the system. Diligence is key, test the litter before you sell them. Don't sell carriers to folks not interested in being educated on the subject and demonstrating a significant sense of responsibility. Say no to squirrelly people - period. Fail proof? Not...nor is any breeding of seemingly healthy dogs. If you have a carrier, it's a no-brainer, any potential mate must be tested...even if "my lines don't have it". I have tons of inquiries from folks to breed to my dog that just disappear when I tell them their bitch has to be tested, they have to show me a negative test, then the litter has to be tested...either it is too much of a headache for them (which I totally understand) or they don't want to know the results of the test in their own dog...in which case they should not be breeding anyway. If for some reason the test "went away", not able to perform it, the lab closed down, etc. - we'd be forced to just not breed a good number of stellar dogs. As it stands now, with the knowledge currently available, this is a perfectly manageable deal for folks willing to do it the right way.
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Elkhunter » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:13 am

I agree with Doug, it takes a ton of effort and time and MONEY to do it the right way.

I knew who were carriers before they left, insured that the people who bought them understood what a carrier was and the responsibility that it entails. One of the females is already spayed who was a carrier, Doug owns the other one and a buddy of mine has the last carrier. And there are 6 clear pups, of which I own a male.

I wanted a pup which was the whole reason I bred to Dougs dog, I have seen him numerous times and loved what he would bring to the table. I only did it because I wanted a male pup, and wanted it out of the two dogs I bred.

Here is my monster!
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Re: Lupoid Dermatosis

Postby Sharon » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:33 pm

After reading all this , I don't know where I get the nerve to post on this forum. You guys are SO knowledgeable. Impressive.
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