Interesting New Grain Free

[mcbosco]

ANNAMAET Salcha Grain Free 20 LB./ 9.07KG
GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
Crude Protein, min 30.0%
Crude Fat, min 16.0%
Crude Fiber, max 3.5%
Moisture, max 10.0%
Ash, max 6.8%


INGREDIENT LIST:
Chicken Meal, Potato, Turkey Meal, Field Peas, Tapioca, Duck Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Catfish Meal, Canola Oil, Menhaden Oil (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Flax Seed Meal, Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach, Natural Flavor, Lecithin, Salt, DL Methionine, L-Lysine, Cranberry, Ascorbic Acid, Choline Chloride, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Oligofructose, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Kelp Meal, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.

Metabolizable Energy 1809 Kcal/lb = 430 kcal/cup

Interesting in that there is no isolated source of fiber like beet pulp or tomato pomace.

[slistoe]

So they put Carrots, Celery, Beets, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach instead. Looks like a lot of fiber to me.
Are potatoes and peas better for the dog to digest than rice and corn?

[mcbosco]

The fiber is low at 3.5%, non expandable so you would know pretty quick how the dog digests the stuff, nothing to form a stool artificially.

Don't know about potatoes, peas & tapioca I guess in some cases they maybe. I thought it was interesting there was no specific fiber source.

[big steve46]

It looks like good enough ingredients. The real proof is good stools, good coat, and good performance. I would assume that it costs less than a dollar a pound since it would be silly to pay a high price for it or for most feeds.

[slistoe]

What would you call celery, lettuce and carrots? The only reason I eat them is for the fibre.

[mcbosco]

3.5% fiber is the amount of fiber in the food, that would be less than most foods and defintely less bulk because it won't absorb any water at least not like the others.

[mcbosco]

It looks like good enough ingredients. The real proof is good stools, good coat, and good performance. I would assume that it costs less than a dollar a pound since it would be silly to pay a high price for it or for most feeds.

I really dont know what it costs. I was given a 10lb bag to try from a friend of the owner. His premium 32/20 Ultra feed goes for around a $1.05 from fair-minded sellers but can be very expensive at a typical retail store.. I doubt this food is cheap. He is releasing 3 grain frees in August after 2 years of testing.

[fordman]

It looks like Chinese food with all them veggies in it, duck meal watercress, how about some dog and rat,.

[mcbosco]

LOL hahhahah, it smells like heaven actually. I ate a few pieces to see how it tasted. This is from a good company specializing in working dogs for a long time. I am sure he did his homework on this formula.

[slistoe]

3.5% fiber is the amount of fiber in the food, that would be less than most foods and defintely less bulk because it won't absorb any water at least not like the others.

Well it seems to be 50/50. I quick scanned through some of the dog foods and the Nutram I feed, a Diamond product and PP are all at 3% fiber and Euk, Iams, Pedigree and Nutro are at 4% fiber.

Dry fiber content is dry fiber content. When you dry out lettuce and then wet it it will absorb the water and expand. I suppose you have never put food through a dehydrator and then later re-hydrated it, like on a backpacking trip or something.

[mcbosco]

3.5% fiber is the amount of fiber in the food, that would be less than most foods and defintely less bulk because it won't absorb any water at least not like the others.

Well it seems to be 50/50. I quick scanned through some of the dog foods and the Nutram I feed, a Diamond product and PP are all at 3% fiber and Euk, Iams, Pedigree and Nutro are at 4% fiber.

Dry fiber content is dry fiber content. When you dry out lettuce and then wet it it will absorb the water and expand. I suppose you have never put food through a dehydrator and then later re-hydrated it, like on a backpacking trip or something.

Actually I have a food dehydrator, its next to a bunch of appliances that don't get used much anymore. Maybe someone would know for sure how expandable they are versus the more common fibers but I would guess there are not.

Maybe I will take that dehydrator out, rasberries are in season now and are bumper due to the heat here.

[tn red]

[quote="mcbosco"]LOL hahhahah, it smells like heaven actually. I ate a few pieces to see how it tasted.

Why would you do that ?I sure hope your joking

[mcbosco]

I tasted a few. Smell so good I had to try it.

[tn red]

Well if you tryed more than one it must taste good

[slistoe]

LOL hahhahah, it smells like heaven actually. I ate a few pieces to see how it tasted.

Why would you do that ?I sure hope your joking

Why wouldn't you do that? Is dog food poison to people? I have tasted a few dogs foods myself, but what dogs find really, really tasty you sure won't catch me putting in my mouth.

[mcbosco]

Like green tripe..... :roll:

[tn red]

My dogs dont care if i like the taste besides i can tell if they like it with out me trying it.Thats all im saying im sure it want kil you .But why ?

[ezzy333]

Like green tripe..... :roll:

No, like bird,horse, and cat manure. Or cow patties or rotting grass from under your lawn mower. What we like or think smells good or taste good has no corrilation to what a dog likes.

And I'm curious about this no fiber thing. Appears to have about the same fiber as many other feeds. Without the grain the fiber content would increase to where it might be a problem trying to keep it low enough.

Feeding a grain free feed is about like us eating a vegetarian diet. We can do it but just isn't as good or healthy as a balanced diet. Of course we have a few people who think both is good but just have nothing to prove their opinion and that seems to bother them rather than just dropping the whole subject and admitting people can feed whatever they like with about the same results. And they can do it with a lot less work as well as a lot less money if those things are important to you.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Like green tripe..... :roll:

No, like bird,horse, and cat manure. Or cow patties or rotting grass from under your lawn mower. What we like or think smells good or taste good has no corrilation to what a dog likes.

And I'm curious about this no fiber thing. Appears to have about the same fiber as many other feeds. Without the grain the fiber content would increase to where it might be a problem trying to keep it low enough.

Feeding a grain free feed is about like us eating a vegetarian diet. We can do it but just isn't as good or healthy as a balanced diet. Of course we have a few people who think both is good but just have nothing to prove their opinion and that seems to bother them rather than just dropping the whole subject and admitting people can feed whatever they like with about the same results. And they can do it with a lot less work as well as a lot less money if those things are important to you.

Ezzy

The point is that there isn't a fiber isolate in the above food like the common fiber sources, rather from actual whole foods. That's all. Obviously, the guy that formulated the food knows what he is doing.

You don't have to get all defensive because we all don't use the same products as you. Diamond also makes one, TOTW, and from what I hear its the best food out of the company.

As for being a vegetarian, you need to do some reading on the health benefits for humans.

You turn every thread into a rant about how stupid everyone else is.

[big steve46]

I believe that people should get the best opinions they can from anyone with nutritional expertise, and better yet from those that have the experience of feeding dogs for many years. When there are conflicting opinions, that's ok also. Give the people a variety of opinions, and let them make up their own minds.

Again, most hunting dogs do well on most quality feeds whether they have certain grains in them or not. I just believe that some people get caught up in the hype from certain products that induce them to spend more money with very little extra return. Common sense is needed.

[ezzy333]

Don't believe you have ever heard me rant as I have nothing to rant about.

I also have no idea what a fiber isolate is. Somewhere I think you said you were referring to beet pulp and for everyone's info beet pulp is practically identical to a carrot or any other root crop. We breed beets with a high sugar content that our animals do not need so we can take the sugar out and leave the rest for feed use. So it provides everything a carrot does except that we have found that a dog can digest much of the cellulose from the beet and that makes it particularly useful to the health of the digestive system. But we don't use any ingredient to just provide fiber as our goal has been to reduce the fiber as much as possible to cut down on the waste that is passed.

Don't know what else to tell you without you asking but I would be glad to answer the questions you have about formulating and manufacturing the feed for our dogs and the other farm animals as well.

I know Diamond as well as many other companies make speciality feeds without grain but I guess they were never very interesting.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

I know Diamond as well as many other companies make speciality feeds without grain but I guess they were never very interesting.

Ezzy

It would be poor business practice to leave out a segment of the market. Grain free is the fad and every established food company is cashing in.

[slistoe]

Obviously, the guy that formulated the food knows what he is doing.

Trying to make money?

[slistoe]

We breed beets with a high sugar content that our animals do not need so we can take the sugar out and leave the rest for feed use. So it provides everything a carrot does except that we have found that a dog can digest much of the cellulose from the beet and that makes it particularly useful to the health of the digestive system.
Ezzy

So, if you fed the beet without first processing it would that make the cellulose less available to the dog? I suspect it would which would make the raw beet and the carrot less about nutrition and more about fibre than the processed beet.

[mcbosco]

We breed beets with a high sugar content that our animals do not need so we can take the sugar out and leave the rest for feed use. So it provides everything a carrot does except that we have found that a dog can digest much of the cellulose from the beet and that makes it particularly useful to the health of the digestive system.
Ezzy

That is utter nonsense. Sugar beets have been developed to the extent they have because SUGAR is a very valuable crop. Just get a quote on sugar futures. You make it sound like sugar beets are planted with dogs in mind and the sugar is a by-products. Beet pulp is dirt cheap and available in massive quantities that is why it is used. You will noticed if you care to read that I didn't say a negative thing about beet pulp.

By the way the beets in this food are not sugar beets rather "cicla" beets like you buy at the store.

Slistoes, this is the guy that forumulated that food. If he really wanted to make money he would just do what Purina and Diamond do.

Lifelong involvement with dogs
• Graduate of The Ohio State University
• Graduate work at University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine
• President of Annamaet Petfoods
• Currently maintains a kennel of 25 racing sled dogs.
• 2006 8-Dog & 10-Dog ISDRA Gold Medalist
• 2008 8-Dog North American Champion
• 2009 Bronze Medal IFSS World Championship
• Vice Chairman of the International Sled Dog Racing Association


Works by Downey
• Downey, R.L., Kronfeld, D.S. and Banta, C.A. "Diet of Beagles Affects Stamina." Journal American Animal Hospital Association, Vol. 16 (1980), pp. 273 - 7.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., "Nutritional Strategies for Stamina in Dogs and Horses." Proceedings, Nutrition Society Australia, Vol. 6 (1981), pp. 21 - 9.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Atkins, T.O., and Downey, R.L., "Nutrition, Anaerobic and Aerobic Exercise, and Stress." Nutrition of the Dog and Cat, Ed. Burger, I.H.,
Rivers, J. P. W. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1989, pp. 133 - 45.
• Kronfeld, D.S., Downey, R.L., and Banta, C.A. "Stamina of Beagles is Influenced by Diet." Proceedings, American College Veterinary Internal Medicine,
Seattle (1979), p. 105.
• Downey, R.L. "Feeding for Winning." Hounds and Hunting Vol. 76 (1979), pp. 32 - 36.
• Downey, R.L. "Musher (With a Difference!) With Leatha Braden." Siberian World, Vol. 3 (1979), pp. 3 - 8.
• Downey, R.L. "Heat Stress in Dogs." Howl Magazine.

[slistoe]

Slistoes, this is the guy that forumulated that food. If he really wanted to make money he would just do what Purina and Diamond do.

So, he was a graduate student that lost out on the research grant funding and was advised by his supervisor to start selling dog food to replace the lost funding to finish his degree. The time was ripe for niche marketing and direct selling.

[mcbosco]

If I need advice I think I will talk to someone that has published extensively on the subject, competes and wins at the highest level and actually makes the stuff, in fact for over 20 years. When you have this track record and become vice-chair on a well known competitive association I will take your advice.

Let me know when it happens.

[slistoe]

No problem. I just don't have rose colored glasses. So, is he going to use this new food to fuel the winning sled dogs, or is he going to use the original "super" food the company was born on that has corn, rice and beet pulp in it (similar to most of the competitors products in that category).
Or maybe the secret to success with the sled dogs is with the supplements he has developed and not the dog food at all. But that would be a secret wouldn't it.

[ezzy333]

If I need advice I think I will talk to someone that has published extensively on the subject, competes and wins at the highest level and actually makes the stuff, in fact for over 20 years. When you have this track record and become vice-chair on a well known competitive association I will take your advice.

Let me know when it happens.

I have but it doesn't seem to help unless the advice is what you want to hear. Oh and make that over 40 years and not just twenty.

Ezzy

[MataPAto]

Ezzy and Mcbosco...

You guys are a riot- you remind me of my Dad & Uncle repairing an engine. I would trust either one of them to fix an engine. I guarantee the end result would be a working machine. But geez, if you make 'em fix it together there's more arguing about components, technique, what the problem is, what the solution is, etc. than you could possibly believe. But in the end, the engine runs. One of them may have spent more money, more effort, more time, or more profanity than the other to accomplish the same thing. Regardless of the success of the other, they both think their way was right. And finally, if I watched the whole process, I know a lot more about engines than when I started. And if I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut and just observe, I could steer clear of the fray.

So here I am, letting you know I'm reading, steering clear of the fray, and maybe learnin' something.

[jlp8cornell]

Ezzy and Mcbosco...

You guys are a riot- you remind me of my Dad & Uncle repairing an engine.

That is a great post. They sure do.....

About time someone brought some humor to the situation. Good job! Jen