any ideas for a new dog food

[gittrdonebritts]

I'm trying to put some weight on my Ep I'm feeding him 5 cups a day (2 1/2 in morning and at night) of Purina pro plan performance which is supposed to be 30/20 any suggestions on anything different i can try ?

[mcbosco]

Your story of feeding that much PPP size to a mid-size dog is not the first I have heard. I have a close friend with a big male GSP that was feeding 6 cups and that food costs $45 a bag for 37.5 lbs in NJ. That is not economical or healthy for the dog.

PPP isn't a true 30/20 because much of protein is not animal-based. In fact, I called Purina a few weeks back and they would not tell me what percentage of the protein was animal-based claiming it was a recipe secret. That is pretty lame. They also told me that they could not state the fish meal used was ethoxyquin free. PP really gums up teeth as well and that is my vet talking.

I think the foods used by sled dogs are good for many of the higher energy sporting breeds, especially hard keepers.

I would look for Annamaet Ultra, Red Paw, Dr. Tim's, Precise Endurance, Abady M&S, Blackwood 7000 & National. The house brand from Ohio Pet Food called Master & Pet Supreme is a steal at 50 cents lb if you can find it.

Some of these might look pricey by the lb. but they aren't by the day.

That GSP I mentioned is eating 3 cups of Annamaet Ultra now, $43 for 40lbs. Human-grade, proven over 20 years and no gluten.

[ezzy333]

I'm trying to put some weight on my Ep I'm feeding him 5 cups a day (2 1/2 in morning and at night) of Purina pro plan performance which is supposed to be 30/20 any suggestions on anything different i can try ?

Since it is fat and carbs that help put weight on I would not change feeds but simply add some fat or oil to the feed. You know it is not the feed that is bad as there are millions of dogs eating it and doing well. Of course there are some that get too fat and a few that don't put on as much weight as we think they should. Kind of like people. Dogs are different and if their metabolism says they are going to be slim, then they will be no matter what brand of food you feed.

Stick with what you are feeding as there is not any feed on the market that is much better, just different. But in 99.9% of the cases if a dog is slim eating one feed they will be that way on any feed unless something else changes in their life, such as a change in exercise, temperature, and parasites. And the big one is exercise.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

Your story of feeding that much PPP size to a mid-size dog is not the first I have heard. I have a close friend with a big male GSP that was feeding 6 cups and that food costs $45 a bag for 37.5 lbs in NJ. That is not economical or healthy for the dog.

PPP isn't a true 30/20 because much of protein is not animal-based. In fact, I called Purina a few weeks back and they would not tell me what percentage of the protein was animal-based claiming it was a recipe secret. That is pretty lame. They also told me that they could not state the fish meal used was ethoxyquin free. PP really gums up teeth as well and that is my vet talking.

I think the foods used by sled dogs are good for many of the higher energy sporting breeds, especially hard keepers.

I would look for Annamaet Ultra, Red Paw, Dr. Tim's, Precise Endurance, Abady M&S, Blackwood 7000 & National. The house brand from Ohio Pet Food called Master & Pet Supreme is a steal at 50 cents lb if you can find it.

Some of these might look pricey by the lb. but they aren't by the day.

That GSP I mentioned is eating 3 cups of Annamaet Ultra now, $43 for 40lbs. Human-grade, proven over 20 years and no gluten.

Sal, surely you know better than what you are inferring with your posts. Feeding that amount of feed is way too much in my opinion but it is in no way impairing the health of the dog. The comment about the feed not being a true 30/20 is hogwash. I think you know that protein is just a word that we use to cover a group of amino acids that any living thing needs. The body doesn't care in the least where those amino acids come from as far as the needed "protein" is concerned even though there are some other advantages of having animal and plants based ingredients in the diet. The biggest reason we need a combination of sources is to get the proper balance of the amino acids and we can do it with less total protein listed as such. As an example if we use the common ingredients we need about 16 percent protein in a growing diet so we can get enough lysine to the animal. But if we add lysine to get that amino acid high enough we can lower the total protein from 16 to almost 12 and get the same results. That saves us all a lot of money since we no longer are throwing away the amino acids that were high in the feed and couldn't be used because of the shortage of lysine. I am sure you have noted the addition of lysine in many of the good feeds today,

I find it hard to believe you called Purina about a feed that you despise and the company that makes it. Even harder is your comment about they wouldn't tell me and how lame is that. Companies do not divulge their formulas where other companies can read them and them duplicate whatever a company is doing without paying their fair share of the tremendous costs associated with the research that it takes to not only discover new things but then proving thay work before putting them on the market. They do not have to even divulge them to FDA during inspections as it is a private asset of the company.

I found it quite interesting that the people our public library had for a two day visit as a learning experience for the youth department said the primary feed that many of the Iditarod competitors, of which they were one, were feeding Lloyal. I have also seen that on the RFD channel when they were interviewing some of the teams involved. They also do not feed raw meat but they cook it and feed some along with the dry dog food. They send most of the feed ahead to be kept at the stations that have to stop at as it is too much to carry with them but they all do carry enough to feed the dogs plus they all carry their cooker along with some meat to feed along with it. I didn't realize just how they handled all of that till I had a chance to sit and talk with them. Everyone of them talked about the value of the dry food for the health and stamina of the dogs that had to have a lot of energy to stand the cold and extreme exercise a trip like that takes.

Just wanted to set the record straight. There is nothing wrong with feeding the expensive feeds that Sal mentioned. They are good feeds but you can do as well or in many cases even better with some of the more reasonably priced feeds that are formulated for working dogs and not the pet of the family that think it is human and should eat the same things they do.

Ezzy

[MikeB]

Gittrdogbritts,
I sent you a PM.
It's not so much about the food. Although I have heard of some dogs eating 30/20 or higher foods and loosing weight. I agree that it is about increasing fat and carbs. I am also a firm believer in using a digestive enzyme to make sure the dog is digesting what ever food your feeding. I know of a 70 # dog that was eating 6 cups of food daily and looking very thin with poor coat and sloppy poop from over eating. Adding a digestive enzyme to each meal, only a 1/4 tsp per cup of food the dog started gaining weight and over time the owner cut the food down to 3 cups a day to maintain the dog. The coat had improved to an amazing conditon. When a dog is digesting it's food properly it makes a huge difference in their condition and performance.

[bossman]

I think everyone has made some good points. I know many people that feed PPP with good results. Having said that, I had the same problem. Could not keep weight on my dog's. Tried almost everything. On the advice of a professional trainer, tried National Performance Plus , 34/20. Have been feeding it for about a year. Dog's are doing great ( have 3 GSP's, the largest one is about 60lbs and he gets about 3 1/2 cups per day). So good, I was having a few bag's shipped at a time to me. The shipping costs were bad but I rationalized it by thinking I was still paying about as much for a bag with shipping than I was paying for a bag of Eukanuba at Petsmart. After last hunting season, four hunting friends are now feeding and we order in quanity making the cost about $35 or $36 a bag. Being in IL, you might be able to find it up there. National is just now trying to get established here in Texas. Again, it has worked for me, it may may not work for you. I do think that if PPP isn't keeping weight on your dog now, it may become even more difficult during the peak hunting months. There are many good feeds out there. Find one they do well on and is available and stick with it, then add suppliments if you wish. Anyway, I've gone on too long...Good luck. Tell us what you decide....

[gittrdonebritts]

I think I'm gonna try some supplements suggested to me by MikeB going to the pet store now to see if they have any thanks for the advice guys will update after i try this.

[mcbosco]

"Even harder is your comment about they wouldn't tell me and how lame is that. Companies do not divulge their formulas where other companies can read them and them duplicate whatever a company is doing without paying their fair share of the tremendous costs associated with the research that it takes to not only discover new things but then proving thay work before putting them on the market"

That is totally wrong. Many, many companies have the protein source break-down right on the bag or on the website. Natura/EVO, Abady, National, Canidea, Orijen, Acana, Red Paw all have that info right on the bag or website. In fact some even have calorie break-downs as well. If they don't they will tell you if you call. Annamaet will tell you by individual source if you like.

The reason why Purina doesn't do it or won't tell you is because Corn Gluten is a very large portion of total protein not because the formula is some big secret. We are talking about dog food not the cure for cancer, there aren't many secrets. You will also notice that on the Purina website Corn Gluten is not even mentioned as a primary ingredient but it is the first ingredient once water weight from the chicken is accounted for. And that is fine for a $25 bag of food, not $45, for a 38lb bag. The ones I mentioned are not expensive when you factor in the amount fed. Bossman summed it up with National, which is even cheaper a lb.

As for health, bloat risk is highly correlated to the amount of kibble fed. It is best to limit the amount to as little as possible. Colitis as well is related to the amount of kibble consumed.

This is all about value, PPP is a high-priced food and people should get what they pay for. Marketing doesn't count.

As far as prepared supplements go, spend the money on better feed first and then see where your are. Impact is a good one if you definitely want to go that route.

I did in fact call Purina and it took over two weeks to get that answer.

[ezzy333]

You will also notice that on the Purina website Corn Gluten is not even mentioned as a primary ingredient but it is the first ingredient once water weight from the chicken is accounted for.

So you are saying it isn't listed on the bag and Purina wouldn't give you the formula, so how did you find out they are using that much Corn Gluten and labeling their feed illegally? Oh, and what is wrong with Corn Gluten? It is just the corn with the sugar and possibly some of the starch removed which makes it an excellent feed that is higher in protein. We did a lot of feed test with it and never found a problem. What and how did we miss it so badly?

Are you aware that some feeds are patented so no one else can formulate a feed like it? We can tell you exactly how much protein, mineral and vitamins a feed has but we can't tell what the formula is, so yes there are still secrets if that is what you want to call them. I would call them proprietary information.

Ezzy

[Greg Jennings]

We've had this argument 1,000 times. Cease and desist. There may be something valuable to add, but I am seriously not in any mood for more ultra premium dog food war posts. Did you notice the "seriously"?

[Munster]

Ezzy, What kind of oils are you suggesting adding to the feed? I feed PPP and dog is still on the thin side. Could be the dog is dtill growing or justhow he is, but wanted to know of the oils you would add.

[1vizsla]

We switched to native level 3 and had good luck with it. We also add a salmon oil. We tried a bunch of different ones till we found one that worked for us. We have since switched due to an allergy to Arkat VF Turkey and Rice and still have had good weight levels. We feed about 3 cups a day. Keep searching!

Carla

[CherrystoneWeims]

I've tried feeding PP 30/20 many times to various Weims over the years and have never had luck keeping weight on the dogs. I end up going back to Eukanuba Premium Performance (30/20) every time. My one year old male, who is very active, gets 4 cups a day. He's still growing and young, growing, male Weims really burn the calories!

[ezzy333]

Ezzy, What kind of oils are you suggesting adding to the feed? I feed PPP and dog is still on the thin side. Could be the dog is dtill growing or justhow he is, but wanted to know of the oils you would add.

Mary, any will work. I use one of the liquid oils, Canola, Corn or anything cheap, just because it is convenient but lard or any solid oil will work just as well. All you are doing is adding concentrated calories while not increasing the volume of feed. The dogs like it and it usually will help. Remember though your male is still young and at an age where it might be difficult to add much weight till he gets a little older.

Ezzy

[millerms06]

My two Vizslas have been on Redpaw Power Edge 32k (2 3/4 cups split twice on a regular day with a little water) and Trainer's Edge dog treats when out training. Both have been looking great since the switch at the beginning of the summer. I do not know if it helps but I do give them dog multi-vitamins at the recommended dosage.

I tried adding a cap full of corn oil before with Purina large breed puppy food for the young one and Blue Buffalo for the older dog. While that seemed to work with their appearance, their waste from it was runny. But that was my dogs and I am sure it will work differently for others. I have known others that would add peanut butter to their dog foods too.

[nanney1]

I'm trying to put some weight on my Ep I'm feeding him 5 cups a day (2 1/2 in morning and at night) of Purina pro plan performance which is supposed to be 30/20 any suggestions on anything different i can try ?

Since you have Pro Plan available, I would guess you might also have access to Eukanuba Premium Performance. Similar price point and might work well.

On the other hand, what other foods are available to you and convenient to purchase, whether at the local pet retailer or local feed stores? This might help everyone give you some suggestions, personal experiences, or opinions depending on what you have available in your area.

Adding oil, or lard, is probably the simplest and cheapest option. Or, you could make up a batch of Satin Balls and give as treats. Just use the forum's search function or Google the recipe.

[Greg Jennings]

Give the dog a complete deworming to clear that off the plate. Per our PM conversation, Ivermectin at the .1cc/10 lbs monthly does not address all worms.

[mcbosco]

I'm trying to put some weight on my Ep I'm feeding him 5 cups a day (2 1/2 in morning and at night) of Purina pro plan performance which is supposed to be 30/20 any suggestions on anything different i can try ?

Since you have Pro Plan available, I would guess you might also have access to Eukanuba Premium Performance. Similar price point and might work well.

On the other hand, what other foods are available to you and convenient to purchase, whether at the local pet retailer or local feed stores? This might help everyone give you some suggestions, personal experiences, or opinions depending on what you have available in your area.

Adding oil, or lard, is probably the simplest and cheapest option. Or, you could make up a batch of Satin Balls and give as treats. Just use the forum's search function or Google the recipe.

Adding oil or lard is a good solution to the short-comings of a cheap dog food, not a supposedly premium product costing $40-$45 a bag. Get your money back. If Black Gold can unconditionally guaranty a $25-$28 bag of perfomance food Purina can guaranty PPP. I wouldn't waste money on a product like that.