Loose Stools

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:43 am

Looking for suggestions on a dry food that will usually give a good stool. Have 3 pointers and 1 setter. Interested in the grain free feeds but with 4 dogs, cost becomes a factor as well. Have been feeding Complete Sport from Southern States. Switched to Advanced from Southern States and now have a mess in my kennels.

One pointer that goes like a goose, all over the kennel. A setter that is just about as bad. 2 pointer females that use the same spot everyday and will not step in it.

I scoop the kennels daily but usually only wash them out with the hose once a week or so. Now I am having to wash 2 of them out nearly every day as the mess is too mutch to scoop.

Comments would be appreciated.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:50 am

Forget about the grain free and find a decent feed thats available and then cut back to half what you are feeding now and then start working them up very gradually. You will have to feed less of a food with grain in it normally so increase it very slowly and watch the stools. In a week or two you should have the amount ech dog need and can handle efficiently. Your dogs will tell when they are getting enough.

Ezzy

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:49 am

ezzy333 wrote:Forget about the grain free and find a decent feed thats available and then cut back to half what you are feeding now and then start working them up very gradually. You will have to feed less of a food with grain in it normally so increase it very slowly and watch the stools. In a week or two you should have the amount ech dog need and can handle efficiently. Your dogs will tell when they are getting enough.

Ezzy

My thoughts exactly!!

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:01 am

Switched to Advanced from Southern States and now have a mess in my kennels.

Out of curiousity, why did you switch feed? I assume their stools were fine on the food you had them on previous?

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:20 am

With the weather turning colder and having them out more, I thought they needed a little extra. I mixed the feed so as not to give them an abrubt change as I do each year.

The male pointer I just got home from the trainer. He is awful in a kennel. He goes then spins around in it. I feed at night after I get home from work and have to change clothes put on rubber boots to keep from getting sh**t all over me. He is healthy, wormed, but nasty in the kennel. He also has an issue in getting car sick. Throws up in the box. These are his two faults.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:28 am

I feed at night after I get home from work

Do you only feed once/day? If so, can you switch to 2x/day?

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:48 am

I have auto feeders. However, I do not use them as auto feeders. I put a pan of feed in them and replenish when they have eaten it. Depending on the tempature, they sometimes clean it up and sometimes there is some left the next day.

Each of them have a different appetite. My 2 female pointers are really clean in the pen. The young setter and new pointer are my problem dogs. They go right where you walk in. The male pointer will gobble his food and be done before I get the other dogs fed. The setter and female pointers nibble on their food through out the day. They all get 2 small dog biscuits a day as well.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:46 pm

If you want things to change then you have to change them. Change where, when, or how you feed them. Change the amount you feed, the time you feed, or change the feed itself as a last resort. You are talking about a different kind of training so figure out what will help.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:59 pm

Since you are experiencing the loose stool problem with a dog that just returned from elsewhere, I would offer the idea of checking for or simply using a five day course of fenbendazole against coccidia.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:31 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Since you are experiencing the loose stool problem with a dog that just returned from elsewhere, I would offer the idea of checking for or simply using a five day course of fenbendazole against coccidia.

I thought fenbendazole was the treatment for giardia......

Coveyrise64

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:57 pm

I thought fenbendazole was the treatment for giardia

Metronidazole is used to treat giardia. That was going to be my next question--have they been tested for giardia? Both of my dogs had loose stools this summer so I put them on a 14 days course of metro. Cleared up...

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:06 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Since you are experiencing the loose stool problem with a dog that just returned from elsewhere, I would offer the idea of checking for or simply using a five day course of fenbendazole against coccidia.
I thought fenbendazole was the treatment for giardia......

Coveyrise64

Flagyl for giardia, Panacur for coccidia. The three day course for whipworms is insufficient for coccidia, so you add two more days. Dosage is the same. It usually gets rid of any giardia incidentally, but Flagyl is better for the latter because it also treats bacteria which can set up a secondary infection/irritation.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:19 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Coveyrise64 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Since you are experiencing the loose stool problem with a dog that just returned from elsewhere, I would offer the idea of checking for or simply using a five day course of fenbendazole against coccidia.
I thought fenbendazole was the treatment for giardia......

Coveyrise64
Flagyl for giardia, Panacur for coccidia. The three day course for whipworms is insufficient for coccidia, so you add two more days. Dosage is the same. It usually gets rid of any giardia incidentally, but Flagyl is better for the latter because it also treats bacteria which can set up a secondary infection/irritation.

There are several treatments for giardiasis, although some of them have not been FDA-approved for that use in dogs. Fenbendazole is an antiparasitic drug that kills some intestinal worms and can help control giardia. It may be used alone or with metronidazole. Metronidazole can kill some types of bacteria that could cause diarrhea. So if the diarrhea was caused by bacteria, and not Giardia, the bacteria can be killed and the symptoms eliminated. Unfortunately, metronidazole has some drawbacks. It has been found to be only 60-70% effective in eliminating Giardia from infected dogs, and probably is not 100% effective in cats, either. It can be toxic to the liver in some animals. It is suspected of being a teratogen (an agent that causes physical defects in the developing embryo), so it should not be used in pregnant animals. Finally, it has a very bitter taste and many animals resent taking it – especially cats.

Albon (sulfadimethoxine) or (amprolium) for coccidia.

Coveyrise64

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:03 pm

We've gone from "loose stools" to giardia and cocciada. If that is the case, you might want to see a vet. My experience with giardia isn't loose stools.. It's an explosion of liquid that is supposed to be stools. Anyway, imo, see a vet. Once you have the answer to that and if it is determined that it is not either one of those two possibilities, look for another food. Many good one's out there that should give better results..

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:13 pm

bossman wrote:We've gone from "loose stools" to giardia and cocciada. If that is the case, you might want to see a vet. My experience with giardia isn't loose stools.. It's an explosion of liquid that is supposed to be stools. Anyway, imo, see a vet. Once you have the answer to that and if it is determined that it is not either one of those two possibilities, look for another food. Many good one's out there that should give better results..

Best advice I've heard so far......

Coveyrise64

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:26 am

lets make sure we get this straight:

sulfadimethoxine (albon) is used to treat coccidia. or you can use amprolium too, but thats usally a cattle/pig thing. you can use ALBendazole. but its off label usage, and so only if a vet tells you to (thats the law, i didnt make it, i just have to follow it). Panacur (FENbendazole), to my knowledge is not effective against coccidia (unless they have discovered something since i got out of school, which is entirely possible).

Flagyl (metronidazole) will work for giardia most of the time, but there are some cases where it wont. I use it for my standard doggy diarrhea drug, but if i know its giardia, I use Panacur (fenbendazole). and even with Panacur i find i get ALOT better results with 8-10 days than 5. had one case where i had to use BOTH!

I agree with coveyrise - at the very least take a stool sample into the vet.

Carl Porter · Post by **Carl Porter** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:32 am

Switching foods is a start. Mix half and half for the first 2 days. 1/4 to 3/4 for two more days will usually keep them from getting diarrhea.
I use Metronidozole for any diarrhea. I read it kills all the bacteria in the upper and lower GI. This gives the GI system and the body time to produce its own again.
Most chronic diarrhea problems I have found are due to feed. Try a better meat based feed.
Metronidozole for Giardia
Albon for coccidia
Safeguard for worms. It kills all four whip, tape, round and hook.
Here is a great web sit for general problems.
http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/health

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:09 am

dog dr wrote:lets make sure we get this straight:

sulfadimethoxine (albon) is used to treat coccidia. or you can use amprolium too, but thats usally a cattle/pig thing. you can use ALBendazole. but its off label usage, and so only if a vet tells you to (thats the law, i didnt make it, i just have to follow it). Panacur (FENbendazole), to my knowledge is not effective against coccidia (unless they have discovered something since i got out of school, which is entirely possible).

Flagyl (metronidazole) will work for giardia most of the time, but there are some cases where it wont. I use it for my standard doggy diarrhea drug, but if i know its giardia, I use Panacur (fenbendazole). and even with Panacur i find i get ALOT better results with 8-10 days than 5. had one case where i had to use BOTH!

I agree with coveyrise - at the very least take a stool sample into the vet.

Besides price is there any difference between panacur and safeguard?

and Ditto on Carl Porter with the www.beaglesunlimited.net beagle health section...

I get a lot of my stuff from www.atozvetsupply.com

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:56 am

I switched from Southern States "Advanced" to Black Gold in the black bag. Situation is worse now than before. Their claims of 96% digestability is crap. From what I am seeing, 96% is coming out of the dog into my kennel.

I got 55 lbs of this stuff.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:04 pm

Get your money back that food is unconditionally GTD.

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:27 pm

Quailtail wrote:I switched from Southern States "Advanced" to Black Gold in the black bag. Situation is worse now than before. Their claims of 96% digestability is crap. From what I am seeing, 96% is coming out of the dog into my kennel.

I got 55 lbs of this stuff.

It is common knowledge that some dogs require a transition time for a new feed. If you have not fed it for say two weeks or introduced it gradually mixed with your old feed, You may be jumping the gun with your assessment.

I have never fed Black Gold, but it appears to be a good feed.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:02 pm

Why don't you spend some time on the transition and get some plain canned pumpkin from the market. Few tablespoons for a few days should settle them down as would a few days of probiotics. Is there a Vitamin Shoppe near you? That chain carries Petdophilus.

This had been going on for a while now so I bet the intestinal flora are depleted.

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:10 pm

Just got back from the grocery. 2 cans of pumpkin. Will start them on it tonight. I am not familar with this probotic stuff. What is it?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:17 pm

http://www.jarrow.com/product.php?prodid=145

Probiotics are the friendly bacteria that live in the gut that keep the animal regular and support the immune system. Like with people, when these are depleted all heck breaks loose inside. After a long period of being out of sync I bet your dogs could use it. They are cheap and totally safe to give.

These are the same bacteria cultures in yogurt but in much greater concentration and in that product the strains that are native to dogs.

Just to confirm, you got plain canned pumpkin not canned pie mix right? It is really easy to mix them up.

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Just checked the can, "100% pure pumpkin". There is a health food store in the town I work. What should I give with the pumpkin? I only have 2 dogs giving me fits. The other two are not too bad.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:44 pm

Just mix with their food. It should help quite a bit. The irony with pumpkin is that it works for constipation too. Cut the feed back too bit by bit until things firms up.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:50 pm

Cut back on the regular kibble by at least half or drop to 1/2 cup which ever is the lessor amount
add a good 1/4 cup pumpkin even add some plain or vanilla yogurt about 2 good dollops and gerber baby rice cereal coat the top in a layer then blend that together

If you do not start seeing some improvements in about 24 hours consult your vet

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:00 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Besides price is there any difference between panacur and safeguard?

Nope, they are both fenbendazole.

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:56 pm

While I realize that everyone has good intention's, it amazes me to see how anxious we all are to give our advice when we really don't know all the fact's or are constantly changing our advice. This issue was originally posted 10 days ago..10 day's!! We have been though loose stools to giardia to coccida to pumpkin seed to probiotics and new food. No mention that you have taking the dog or a sample to the vet. After 10 days I would hope it's not giardia, your dog would really be in worse condition, and yet people are just changing their advice. 10 days is not enough time to transition a dog properly from one feed to another. I think it usually takes a bag, maybe two to see the reults of a new feed. But, in all due respect, I feel your just running around doing the easiest thing possible and were helping you. Go to a vet. They may recommend another diet or another couse of action. ( and no, I don't think the vet would be involved in a "dog food conspirecy". )..The thing's that make sense to me is to feed less and transition slowly and get professional advice. Anything else is a temporary fix and not addressing a permanent solution...Just my opinion...Good luck!!!

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:23 pm

You make an excellent point. I figured this had been looked at already. In any event, canned pumpkin is commonly used by vets along with medication when a dog has a parasite.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:01 pm

bossman wrote:While I realize that everyone has good intention's, it amazes me to see how anxious we all are to give our advice when we really don't know all the fact's or are constantly changing our advice. This issue was originally posted 10 days ago..10 day's!! We have been though loose stools to giardia to coccida to pumpkin seed to probiotics and new food. No mention that you have taking the dog or a sample to the vet. After 10 days I would hope it's not giardia, your dog would really be in worse condition, and yet people are just changing their advice. 10 days is not enough time to transition a dog properly from one feed to another. I think it usually takes a bag, maybe two to see the reults of a new feed. But, in all due respect, I feel your just running around doing the easiest thing possible and were helping you. Go to a vet. They may recommend another diet or another couse of action. ( and no, I don't think the vet would be involved in a "dog food conspirecy". )..The thing's that make sense to me is to feed less and transition slowly and get professional advice. Anything else is a temporary fix and not addressing a permanent solution...Just my opinion...Good luck!!!

Finally a post that is right on the money. This has been a concern of mine for a long time. How we can diagnose these problems and recommend the cure all when we haven't seen the dog, the problem was two weeks ago, and there turn out to be ten different recommendations without even mentioning the common sense first response that needs to be done.

As Bossman said, if he is waiting 2 weeks and still reading this thread he probably is in a lot more trouble than we even know about. I still have the old fashioned procedure in mind of taking the feed away for a day or so and if it is still a problem take the dog to a vet. That's what they are for.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:14 am

I don't think anyone ever diagnosed anything. A few common sense things were recommended with the comfort of the dog in mind. Things any competent Dr. would use with medication if it were required.

The owner of the dog bears the responsibility of seeking professional care and no one ever said don't go to the vet.

Carl Porter · Post by **Carl Porter** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 am

I agree. Only trying to help with suggestions or things that have helped me in the past.
Carl

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:52 am

I don't think we have to limit our conversation to "see your vet" any time someone asks about loose stools.

I think we could do a better job of asking questions. E.g., "What do you mean by "loose"? Is it green liquid?" "Has the dog been wormed?", "Did it begin when you transitioned food? What was it like before? Have you tried going back to the old food?" "Did you wife slip in the drippings from the Spicy Salsa Chicken?" (happened at our house last night).

We could also throw in the "If any doubt, check with your vet".

Greg J.

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:52 am

Dog was taken to the vet. Stool was checked and the results were negative. He could find nothing wrong with the dog. Will procede with the pumpkin treatment and cut his ration down and see what happens. Tempatures are in the low teens here so loose stool or not, he will need to have a reasonable amount of food to sustain him.

TXLabMan · Post by **TXLabMan** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:17 am

pro-biotics did wonders for my old lab, always had a sensitive stomach for 10.5 years, started him on bac-pak plus 4 months ago and he hasnt had a loose stool since. I swear by that stuff (and i am not easily sold on "snake oil") this stuff worked for my dog.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:33 am

TXLabMan wrote:pro-biotics did wonders for my old lab, always had a sensitive stomach for 10.5 years, started him on bac-pak plus 4 months ago and he hasnt had a loose stool since. I swear by that stuff (and i am not easily sold on "snake oil") this stuff worked for my dog.

I was going to suggest Bac-Pak-Plus but it is mail order unless you are really lucky and he seemed to need it right away. That stuff seems to work miracles for people. Good product, well thought out and very inexpensive.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:33 am

Pumpkin works like Metamucil does for humans. It evens everything out. I keep a can in the pantry and another in the doggy travel bag. My dogs like it.

Everyone, should, IMHO, keep Flagyl, Pumpkin, Immodium, Paper towels, 409 and a tube of a quick-acting flea killer in their dog kit. Covers a lot of potential embarrassment.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:40 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Pumpkin works like Metamucil does for humans. It evens everything out. I keep a can in the pantry and another in the doggy travel bag. My dogs like it.

Everyone, should, IMHO, keep Flagyl, Pumpkin, Immodium, Paper towels, 409 and a tube of a quick-acting flea killer in their dog kit. Covers a lot of potential embarrassment.

Pumkin also contains cucurbitin which might account for why it helps, dunno, but for 69 cents a can why not keep it.

I would add powdered probiotics to that list.

Carl Porter · Post by **Carl Porter** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:11 am

Here we go again.....off in another direction. All kidding aside this is good.
A list for your first aid kit.
I keep a bunch of neosporin in mine too. I buy it at the $1 store called triple antibiotic cream. Helps with scratches and small cuts.
A spray bottle of peroxide. Easier to apply than dumping half on the ground trying to pour it.
Vet rap and some cheap bangages.
Any other suggestions folks.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:22 am

If a general first aid kit, do a search in this forum for first aid kit. We've had several good threads.

I'm just talking about things related to loose stools. Shouldn't have added the flea killer, but my thoughts had drifted toward where I was when I needed the stuff for diahhrea.

Carl Porter · Post by **Carl Porter** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:37 am

I hear you. just trying to add a little humor.
I like having the pumpkin. Have used it once before. good idea to keep some with you. Easier to keep than cottage cheese and rice.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:34 pm

While I'm on my tangent, it's a great thing to make sure your dog boxes have drain holes... No fun to be out of town and have to put head and shoulders into the box to clean up nasty giardia poo. Much easier to hose it out at the car wash or similar.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:43 pm

Sugar, Vet wrap, Eye Wash,generic nasal spray, Acne Med, Fish-Zole aka Flagyl, Benedryl, super glue, gerber Baby rice cereal, packets of honey and duct tape, pepto bismal

the generic nasal spray makes a good wound wash
Sugar helps shrink wounds back to normal also acts as an antiseptic and helps heals wounds

I have used it from prolapsed uterus's with cattle to horses to shrink a fresh wound back cleaned flush dried and super glued to field cuts

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:41 pm

Interested if there has been any improvement

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:09 am

No improvement. Giving Probiotics which began Saturday. Kennel looked as if I had a cow in there rather than a dog. That is the consistency of his stool. Cow piles. I cleaned his kennel twice yesterday. It would appear there is more coming out of him than is going in. Purchased a bag of 4life lamb and rice to mix with the Black Gold. Started mixing 2 parts Black Gold 1 part 4life. Fed him less than a cup last night. He acts as if he is starving to death but he has plenty of weight on him. He is a really high strung pointer. The rest of my dogs stools are better but still soft after switching to the Black Gold. Feeding am/pm has had no affect. The pumpkin produced the best results but hate to think I have to go through that hassel everyday for one dog. Still have 30 lbs of the Black Gold to go through. I don't want anymore of this stuff.

I started using a marked measuring cup. I was surprised to see how small a portion an acutal cup was. Based on the feeding instructions of 2 to 2.5 cups for a 50lb dog, it sure does not look like much food. I have had 3-4 dogs for the past 35 years and this is the first dog I have owned that I have this much trouble with.

jlp8cornell · Post by **jlp8cornell** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:44 am

Has your Vet ruled out problems like pancreatitis, IBD, etc? Just a thought

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:01 am

Quailtail wrote:No improvement. Giving Probiotics which began Saturday. Kennel looked as if I had a cow in there rather than a dog. That is the consistency of his stool. Cow piles. I cleaned his kennel twice yesterday. It would appear there is more coming out of him than is going in. Purchased a bag of 4life lamb and rice to mix with the Black Gold. Started mixing 2 parts Black Gold 1 part 4life. Fed him less than a cup last night. He acts as if he is starving to death but he has plenty of weight on him. He is a really high strung pointer. The rest of my dogs stools are better but still soft after switching to the Black Gold. Feeding am/pm has had no affect. The pumpkin produced the best results but hate to think I have to go through that hassel everyday for one dog. Still have 30 lbs of the Black Gold to go through. I don't want anymore of this stuff.

I started using a marked measuring cup. I was surprised to see how small a portion an acutal cup was. Based on the feeding instructions of 2 to 2.5 cups for a 50lb dog, it sure does not look like much food. I have had 3-4 dogs for the past 35 years and this is the first dog I have owned that I have this much trouble with.

How much do you figure you were giving before you started measuring?

Quailtail · Post by **Quailtail** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:52 am

Comparing the measuring cup to what I was giving them would equal 4 to 5 cups. My other dogs would eat what they wanted. There was usually food left when I would feed again. Not this pointer. He would eat 50 lbs a day if you gave it to him.

The dog is healty, plenty of energy, appears to feel good, happy. He just likes to eat and poop.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:21 am

might not hurt to run some panacur thru this dog. sometimes wipworms can be missed with a standard fecal float, and cow flop stool is pretty common with whips.