New DD Gun Dog owner...taking opinions for pup & adult food

[Meatballs]

I am getting my first gun dog...a deutsch drahthaar end of Jan/beg Feb...what do you use, why?

[mcbosco]

Let Ezzy start this

[ezzy333]

What I use and why will not have any effect on your puppy. You need to find a good dog food that is readily available, affordable, and your pup likes and appears to do well on. Other than that you are just asking people to tell you what they feed and the answers will be that some of us feed about every feed manufactured, our dogs are doing well, and we think the food is great. And by and large we each are right. There is little difference in dog foods, little difference in what your dog will like, but a great deal of difference in opinions of the dog owners. But none of us are eating the food so our vote shouldn't count for much.

It's kind of like driving down the road and seeing 10 different brands of trucks that each are the best if you listen to the advertising and the owners. But they all do the job quite well and all with about the same efficiency. But if you live next to the Ford dealer and have to drive a hundred miles to any other dealer I can almost guarantee which one you will have and also practically all of your neighbors.

Just find a good one thats fairly high in protein and fat and use it. And remember no matter how much you hear or read there just isn't anything much better.

Ezzy

[Buckeye_V]

I'll bight becuase I have thick skin and don't give 2 hoots what anyone else wants to try and get me to use....

If you have a Tractor Supply store close, they have plenty of good options at reasonable prices. Why do I buy these foods? Because we travel bunches and there is usually a TSC close at hand.

I happen to feed the 4 Health line. Several different options and they usually have a great sale a few times a year where/when I can stock up.

Like other folks will say, get something reputable and easy to get that you are comfortable purchasing. Watch your dog, it may not be the last food you try or buy. Many of has switched AT LEAST once in our lives to a different food for different reasons. Have an open mind and do what is best for you.....

Good luck and enjoy that new pup!

[birddogger]

What I use and why will not have any effect on your puppy. You need to find a good dog food that is readily available, affordable, and your pup likes and appears to do well on. Other than that you are just asking people to tell you what they feed and the answers will be that some of us feed about every feed manufactured, our dogs are doing well, and we think the food is great. And by and large we each are right. There is little difference in dog foods, little difference in what your dog will like, but a great deal of difference in opinions of the dog owners. But none of us are eating the food so our vote shouldn't count for much.

It's kind of like driving down the road and seeing 10 different brands of trucks that each are the best if you listen to the advertising and the owners. But they all do the job quite well and all with about the same efficiency. But if you live next to the Ford dealer and have to drive a hundred miles to any other dealer I can almost guarantee which one you will have and also practically all of your neighbors.

Just find a good one thats fairly high in protein and fat and use it. And remember no matter how much you hear or read there just isn't anything much better.

Ezzy

This is all so true!! The only thing I would suggest is to not waste money on the higher priced puppy formulas. IMO, they are a marketing scheme and serve no purpose.

[tro182]

I am going to feed TOTW beacause I can get it close, the breeder feeds it, and with one dog the price difference is not that great. There are many brands out there because people buy them.

[MATT4126]

Funny..our breeder fed eagle pack exclusively and swore by it. After getting our GSP home with a small bag we realized it wasn't the best food for her (consistent loose stools, poor coat quality etc). We switched to Wellness Core and haven't looked back.

[mcbosco]

I would feed a DD a 30/20 type food from the start. I think you get the most for your money with these formulas. More protein and more fat means less carbohydrates. Better value in my opinion.

As for the brand, there are diminishing returns on both sides of the average price. Geography has a lot to do with choices and believe it or not prices. The cheaper brands are not much cheaper than the "better" brands in my area.

I have never found any value in feeding cheap.

I wont use any food with corn gluten, fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin or nonsense ingredients like bentonite.

What brands are available nearby?

[ezzy333]

I wont use any food with corn gluten, fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin or nonsense ingredients like bentonite.

Just remember this is one of those personal owner opinions I mentioned and can not be backed up with either research or a dogs condition.

Ezzy

[gittrdonebritts]

I I wont use any food with corn gluten, fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin or nonsense ingredients like bentonite.

Again whats your big beef with corn gluten ? my dad uses it in the feed mix for his live stock and his dog will go right up to the pile and eat it, were are the "facts" that make you against it ?

[mcbosco]

Corn gluten is not harmful but it is used to cheaply raise the protein levels of a regular kibble to a performance level. I won't pay extra for this.

As for ethoxyquin, it is a very dangerous preservative that doesn't have to be used anymore and you don't have to pay premium prices to get a food without it. Black Gold is a value kibble that certifies its food is ethoxyquin free and will email you the third-party test. And Ezzy you are wrong about the research. In the mid-90's the FDA discovered that certain levels of ethoxyquin resulted in liver damage and requested the amount in pet food be cut in half. Interestingly, the research the FDA did was never released to the public. It is not allowed in any amount in Europe. An Italian study linked it to serious deformities in cattle. The FDA first noted it was dangerous in the 1950's. OSHA and the EPA require that workers wear protective clothing when around ethoxyquin. Vitamins A,C,E & Rosemary extract are used by companies that care.

What else do you need to know?

As for bentonite, if you want to feed your dog cement so the stools form, go right ahead.

[ezzy333]

Corn gluten is not harmful but it is used to cheaply raise the protein levels of a regular kibble to a performance level. I won't pay extra for this.

As for ethoxyquin, it is a very dangerous preservative that doesn't have to be used anymore and you don't have to pay premium prices to get a food without it. Black Gold is a value kibble that certifies its food is ethoxyquin free and will email you the third-party test. And Ezzy you are wrong about the research. In the mid-90's the FDA discovered that certain levels of ethoxyquin resulted in liver damage and requested the amount in pet food be cut in half. Interestingly, the research the FDA did was never released to the public. It is not allowed in any amount in Europe. An Italian study linked it to serious deformities in cattle. The FDA first noted it was dangerous in the 1950's. OSHA and the EPA require that workers wear protective clothing when around ethoxyquin. Vitamins A,C,E & Rosemary extract are used by companies that care.

What else do you need to know?

As for benignity, if you want to feed your dog cement so the stools form, go right ahead.

Did you know that certain levels of practically every ingredient we eat or feed our dogs is toxic at certain levels, that is why they aren't used at those levels but rather used at a level that is beneficial and in may cases essential to good nutrition?

Ethoxyquin levels were lowered by some and taken completely out of other feeds from the levels it was used at as a precautionary response by the feed manufactures when called for by FDA even though there was never any problems with it in any research done in this country. And for your info we never had to wear protective clothing from anything we used in the feed mills or in feed manufacturing.

And this isn't the place to tell you about Bentonite, either the purpose it is used in some feeds or what the digestive advantages that were discovered from including a small percentage in the feed. It would take more typing than I want to do but I do think you would be just as surprised as most people were when it was discovered. Lets just let it go that it serves several very useful purposes when included in the feed.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

Is it like montmorillonite?

[ezzy333]

Yep. I pulled this up that might help explain part of the reason it is use.

http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=64408

Thank you

Ezzy

[twofeathers]

I feed Black Gold to a puppy and a two year old GSP. Very happy with it.

[mcbosco]

Is it like montmorillonite?

I am aware of the pop science surrounding sodium bentonite & montmorillonite clay in pet food. Every health food store pushes that stuff for its magical cleansing qualities. The truth is it is used in pet foods as a stool harderner. It has an amazing ability to absorb water and yes toxins. I have seen it used as drilling mud in oil wells.

It is a stool hardener. I will give you this, if your dog has a problem with the runs when exercising it might help.

As for ethoxyquin, the sad truth is the pet food companies hid the use of it. By the magic of walking around money, the FDA allowed pet food companies to just put an "E" on the bag instead of writing " Ethoxyquin" in the list of ingredients. I believe it was an "E" in a circle.

Naturox is effective enough as preservative for fish. There is no reason for ethoxyquin it to be in the food supply. If you saw the cows in Italy with eyes on the back of their heads you would reach the same the conclusion. The Japanese figured this out years ago when ethoxyquin was firmly linked to bladder and stomach cancer.

[ezzy333]

Is it like montmorillonite?

I am aware of the pop science surrounding sodium bentonite & montmorillonite clay in pet food. Every health food store pushes that stuff for its magical cleansing qualities. The truth is it is used in pet foods as a stool harderner. It has an amazing ability to absorb water and yes toxins. I have seen it used as drilling mud in oil wells.

It is a stool hardener.

As for ethoxyquin, the sad truth is the pet food companies hid the use of it. By the magic of walking around money, the FDA allowed pet food companies to just put an "E" on the bag instead of writing " Ethoxyquin" in the list of ingredients. I believe it was an "E" in a circle.

Naturox is effective enough as preservative for fish. There is no reason for ethoxyquin it to be in the food supply.

So here we have the final word from the highly trainer scientist, nutritionist, and soothsayer, who not only knows all about every product but also knows why everyone uses the product.

Could you give us the information on all of the dogs killed by ethoxyquin, how much money was spent by what companies so they could include an ingredient that would kill all of their customers dogs, and the names of the companies that did it? But this is a rather old and useless discussion since most everyone has found other ways to protect the health of your animals.

We used Bentonite in many of our feeds but it was never used to effect the animals stool. I am not sure it would even do that since many dogs and other animals that are eating feeds with it in are still scouring if fed too much or their digestive systems get off whack.

But I notice you dropped the Corn Gluten thing. You have informed us many times how dogs need high fat and high protein but no carbs. So some one thakes the whole corn, removes the carbs, uses the rest of the kernel which is primarily fat and protein, and that isn't any good either. I'm stumped on just what the industry can do to provide a feed that 99.99% of the people need, use, and like but still isn't good enough for that one individual who tells us how bad everything that works really is.

But of course you know this!

I know this isn't going to go over real big but lets just try to help a newcomer to our sport with facts and not so many opinions that there is no evidence to support and a whole bunch that says it works..

Ezzy

[Meatballs]

Thanks Ya'll...appreciate the experiences and opinions...was what i was looking for. Lots of experiences and preferences...this is a good forum. Continue the conversation please if you have more to share. Brother feeds large breed eukanuba...any opinions?


Matt

[Cajun Casey]

I had not seen my nineteen month old for several weeks when I dropped off another youngster at my trainer's place this week. He looked really good. The kennels could have been cleaned with a broom. This is a big improvement across the board, because some of the high strung dogs there always have had loose stools in the past. I asked what was being fed and guess what? It's a really inexpensive 24/16 food with meat meal and ground yellow corn as the top two ingredients! I guess that goes to show you sometimes the food companies do know their stuff!

[Crashola]

Do you have a Costco nearby? Many folks are very pleased with their Kirkland Premium line of dog foods. They have an ingredient list that's normally found on much more expensive dog foods.

[Greg Jennings]

No Costco in KY . It's Sam's Land.

Suggest that you first look at what is readily available. No food is going to do you any good that isn't readily available.

Greg J.

[mcbosco]

Is it like montmorillonite?

I am aware of the pop science surrounding sodium bentonite & montmorillonite clay in pet food. Every health food store pushes that stuff for its magical cleansing qualities. The truth is it is used in pet foods as a stool harderner. It has an amazing ability to absorb water and yes toxins. I have seen it used as drilling mud in oil wells.

It is a stool hardener.

As for ethoxyquin, the sad truth is the pet food companies hid the use of it. By the magic of walking around money, the FDA allowed pet food companies to just put an "E" on the bag instead of writing " Ethoxyquin" in the list of ingredients. I believe it was an "E" in a circle.

Naturox is effective enough as preservative for fish. There is no reason for ethoxyquin it to be in the food supply.

So here we have the final word from the highly trainer scientist, nutritionist, and soothsayer, who not only knows all about every product but also knows why everyone uses the product.

Could you give us the information on all of the dogs killed by ethoxyquin, how much money was spent by what companies so they could include an ingredient that would kill all of their customers dogs, and the names of the companies that did it? But this is a rather old and useless discussion since most everyone has found other ways to protect the health of your animals.

We used Bentonite in many of our feeds but it was never used to effect the animals stool. I am not sure it would even do that since many dogs and other animals that are eating feeds with it in are still scouring if fed too much or their digestive systems get off whack.

But I notice you dropped the Corn Gluten thing. You have informed us many times how dogs need high fat and high protein but no carbs. So some one thakes the whole corn, removes the carbs, uses the rest of the kernel which is primarily fat and protein, and that isn't any good either. I'm stumped on just what the industry can do to provide a feed that 99.99% of the people need, use, and like but still isn't good enough for that one individual who tells us how bad everything that works really is.

But of course you know this!

I know this isn't going to go over real big but lets just try to help a newcomer to our sport with facts and not so many opinions that there is no evidence to support and a whole bunch that says it works..

Ezzy

Is Diamond wrong too?

"Diamond Pet Foods sources all protein meals (chicken meal, fish meal, etc) from vendors that do not use ethoxyquin. As always, only natural preservatives are used in our manufacturing process to preserve the foods"

[ezzy333]

If you are not going to list ethoxyquin on your tag you have to buy ingredients that have not been exposed to it. Like I said most companies have found other products that work and have switched. Doesn't make the ones that haven't some kind of uncaring company, just one that is still following the law and complying with FDA limitations.

Glad you mentioned Diamond though since I have never wasted my time to look or any other company either.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

I don't know why you get so emotional about this. My point is that when given the choice, when there is no additional cost (ie Black Gold & Diamond examples), what rational person would feed something with Ethoxyquin?

As for corn gluten, Joe Washlag's (Cornell) study is quite telling. And my point is the same,why would you spend $1.35 lb for PPP (with a lot of CG) or $.80 lb for Pro Pac HP with zero CG.

"Dogs fed a higher percentage of total protein derived from corn gluten meal were less able to maintain muscle than those fed similar diets containing chicken protein. The loss in the ability to maintain muscle coincided with a decrease in a high-molecular-weight calpastatin band detected on western blots. The canines that were fed a 28% crude protein diet consisting of chicken as the sole protein source showed an increase in a high-molecular-weight form of skeletal muscle calpastatin in the biceps femoris, implying that these dogs may have had greater potential to regulate calpain-mediated degradation of muscle protein. Because calpastatin inhibits calpain, which partially degrades some skeletal muscle proteins, it is suggested that a change in calpastatin in muscle may function to maintain skeletal muscle mass and/or increase skeletal muscle protein accretion by minimizing proteolysis"

[ezzy333]

As for corn gluten, Joe Washlag's (Cornell) study is quite telling. And my point is the same,why would you spend $1.35 lb for PPP (with a lot of CG) or $.80 lb for Pro Pac HP with zero CG.

"Dogs fed a higher percentage of total protein derived from corn gluten meal were less able to maintain muscle than those fed similar diets containing chicken protein. The loss in the ability to maintain muscle coincided with a decrease in a high-molecular-weight calpastatin band detected on western blots. The canines that were fed a 28% crude protein diet consisting of chicken as the sole protein source showed an increase in a high-molecular-weight form of skeletal muscle calpastatin in the biceps femoris, implying that these dogs may have had greater potential to regulate calpain-mediated degradation of muscle protein. Because calpastatin inhibits calpain, which partially degrades some skeletal muscle proteins, it is suggested that a change in calpastatin in muscle may function to maintain skeletal muscle mass and/or increase skeletal muscle protein accretion by minimizing proteolysis"

This report is quite telling as you suggest. It is a report of someone theory of what may be happening. That's why it uses the terms may or might or could be but never does. We see these papers on most research projects before they are completed and seldom hear much more about most of them as what may or might seldom results in does.

However, if you want to pick and choose papers that might indicate a problem may show up, it's OK. Just wish you would not use them to try and sway some one wanting straight answers when there is no need to.

I have no idea where you got your idea that every company is out to screw it's customers. If you stop to think, everyone that is successful in doing that won't be here in a matter of months as the only way any business survives is producing products that their customers will continue to buy. But we have been over all of this before and it does get old having to repeat it every month or so. I suppose I am just as guilty as you as I am the fool that keeps thinking if it is explained just how we operated and how and why we do some of the things that you don't understand that it would get better but it just doesn't seem to work that way.

At least I tried,

Ezzy

[kumate]

Ezzy, I think i finaly figured out why you state that all dog food is the same, and there are no differences between brands. Are you the ceo of this feed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za9_9N8MNuE

To the original poster looking for opinions, as many have said there are alot of good feeds out there, but please do not believe the banter that all feeds are the same and that there are few differences between them. These are just his oppinions as i have mine. I am sure you are educated enough to realize that there is more difference than price when comparing ole roy red bag to totw, orijen, propac, and many other good feeds. If you would like to verify his expertise, buy a bag of ole roy red bag and feed it to your dog, then buy a bag of totw propac, orijen etc. Give them both a fair consideration and you will soon see his skewed opinions. Some foods are better than others and of course this is my opinion.

Jerry

[ezzy333]

Ezzy, I think i finaly figured out why you state that all dog food is the same, and there are no differences between brands. Are you the ceo of this feed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za9_9N8MNuE

To the original poster looking for opinions, as many have said there are alot of good feeds out there, but please do not believe the banter that all feeds are the same and that there are few differences between them. These are just his oppinions as i have mine. I am sure you are educated enough to realize that there is more difference than price when comparing ole roy red bag to totw, orijen, propac, and many other good feeds. If you would like to verify his expertise, buy a bag of ole roy red bag and feed it to your dog, then buy a bag of totw propac, orijen etc. Give them both a fair consideration and you will soon see his skewed opinions. Some foods are better than others and of course this is my opinion.

Jerry

Jerry,

You finally figured it out. beginning to think I was going to have to drop some hints or something. I too prefer some feeds over others but find it hard to accept that only the highest priced feeds are fit to feed because their quality is so much better. But it is fine if you do. I have my personal favorites and they are different from yours since our criteria for judging is different. That's what makes it nice as it allows us each to find what we like the best. But I also know that the ingredients that are used in most feeds come from the same places and the end result of the feeds have to meet the same standards of providing the nutrition needed to sustain the animal it is intended for. And also our ideas or standards have changed considerably over the years, even though the nutritional requirements of our dogs have not. So we end up with feeds that were used in the past and did a good job are now frowned upon and considered almost worthless by some today. I understand some of that since many today were not around in the past and experienced first hand caring dogs before there even was a "dog food".

Anyway, you have now caught up with most of the people on here and found out about me.

Later

Ezzy

[Meatballs]

I continued to feed my new dog on the Eukanuba Puppy food he was started on when i got him six weeks ago. He is not a hog...he takes his time eating and doesnt woof his food down. Not sure that is any indication of how much he likes it...