Nuetering Question

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Fish 4-5
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Nuetering Question

Post by Fish 4-5 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:01 am

At some point I will probably get my 1year old GSP nuetered. That said other than the obvious what are the pros or cons that go along with that decisions. The wife thinks it will calm him down allthough I think at this point he is still young. I sure don't want to cut down on his hunting drive. My other dogs never hunted and I really didn't care. With this one I want to make sure I have plenty of info. prior to that decision.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by jlp8cornell » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:16 am


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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:03 pm

Don't worry about it cutting down on hunting drive. That won't happen. If anything it will allow him to be less occupied with women and fighting on his mind.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:11 pm

Where does everyone seem to get the idea that neutering stops fighting,stops sexual erge,stops marking,etc? :?
Just not the case people. :idea:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:19 pm

"The wife thinks it will calm him down allthough I think at this point he is still young"

More often than not its the wife that wants them clipped.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:27 pm

The only thing it will stop for sure is IMPREGNATION !! :o

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by DougB » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:42 pm

There are positives and negatives, as with any medical procedure. You can find research on the topic that favors neutering, research that says no, and research that says wait until the dog is older.

Spaying and neutering - according to a study by the British Veterinary Association (author AR Michell is the president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons), "Neutered bitches lived longest of dogs dying of all causes, though entire bitches lived longest of dogs dying of natural causes, with neutered males having the shortest lifespan in each category."[6] Neutering reduces or eliminates the risk of some causes of early death, for example pyometra in bitches, and testicular cancer in males, as well as indirect causes of early death such as accident and euthanasia (intact dogs may roam more and be more aggressive), but also raises the risk of death from other conditions (castration favors prostate cancer in males, and neutered males have the highest rate for this condition[9]).




A review of vet research on the topic for a Masters Degree program came up with the following:
Laura J. Sanborn, M.S.
May 14, 2007

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially
immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated
with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

That certainly makes the choice clear as mud. If you don't intend to breed the dog, neuter. Life is easier for you and the dog.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:46 pm

I can tell you as a physician and now science teacher that testosterone at lower levels decreases aggression. Think of humans. When a male is 16-18 he has 3 times the aggression and testosterone as a 45 year old man. It may not cure fighting, but there is little doubt that he will be less aggressive. Also, he won't be interested in breeding every female in the area. Lastly, he will normally eat less. I have owned 5 male dogs that were nuetered, and they all lived to be 14 or over.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by mcbosco » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:52 pm

He has a point on aggression, at least statistically. An intact male is twice as likely to bite.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:12 pm

AGAIN BS & there has been atleast one on here to find just the opposite true.He had a dog that was 3 or 4 yrs old maybe older don't remember.The dog never showed any aggressiveness untill he was neutered.He is sorry now that he had it done.
That is only one dog but your assumptions are wrong.A dog can still breed without testicles still marks & so on & so on.
I could care less either way but don't tell people something that's not a fact.
I personally belive in most cases neutering & spaying is for the owners convienuence not the dogs.
But the final decisions is up to the owners not the dogs. :lol:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:17 pm

OH birddogz I have never had a dog spayed or neutered,my foundation female died last Dec @ over 15 yrs,my foundation sired died @ 13 yrs 4 mos.
So what does that prove? "NOTHING"

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:36 pm

Chemicals make a difference. If testosterone is very low, it will reduce aggression. This is a biochemical fact. We are talking about molecules and the way they interact/bond to other molecules to produce different chemical pathways within the nervous system of the animal. Saying that there is no difference is ignoring chemistry.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:10 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:AGAIN BS & there has been atleast one on here to find just the opposite true.He had a dog that was 3 or 4 yrs old maybe older don't remember.The dog never showed any aggressiveness untill he was neutered.He is sorry now that he had it done.
That is only one dog but your assumptions are wrong.A dog can still breed without testicles still marks & so on & so on.
I could care less either way but don't tell people something that's not a fact.
I personally belive in most cases neutering & spaying is for the owners convienuence not the dogs.
But the final decisions is up to the owners not the dogs. :lol:
Really? As you say the choice is up to the owner, not the dog - we know which option the dog would choose. :D

I've always heard that neutering males reduces aggressive tendencies. Here's a quote from one vet. site:
Behavior: Unneutered males have a constant urge to roam and also to defend their territory. They can sense a female in heat from literally miles away. A neutered dog will be less likely to run away or to get into fights with other dogs. He will be more calm and easier to train because he will not be constantly distracted by his hormones.
http://www.uvma.org/neutering.htm

That said, I'll wait until 14 months or so before I neuter my next male dog.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:25 pm

Yes & most vets also say the sooner it's done the better & we are now finding out that's not the case.HMMMMMMMMMM :)

So the vet is saying if a dog has his testicles removed his nose quits working?
that's the last thing I would want in a bird dog!!! :P

Most people also believe a female won't stand to let a dog mount & breed her unless she is in season & the male isn't all that interested anyway if shes not.
Wrong again.It's true that most dogs won't but it is not a 100 % fact.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:45 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yes & most vets also say the sooner it's done the better & we are now finding out that's not the case.HMMMMMMMMMM :)
I definitely get your point there. Same thing is true with nutrition - an area in which most vets don't seem to have much training, and seemingly base their opinions on information gleaned from lots of visits from the food sponsors -especially Science Diet.

A responsible vet will present a balanced picture - and refer the owner to additional reading. Unfortunately, most owners just want a quick answer - and a quick "procedure" and are on their way.

Of course, then there is the problem with overpopulation of animals...

All this goes to show - we are the stewards of our own dogs. It's up to us to stay informed and make good decisions on their behalf.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Brittguy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:26 pm

By calming him down , I bet you mean puppy behavior and just getting excited when playing with people. I doubt if neutering will change that.Do you really have a problem with aggressive behavior toward other dogs? I have only had contact with two neutered dogs and I didn't see any difference with either of them. In fact I was shocked to see one of them mate with a bitch and have a tie, of course there were no puppies.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:35 pm

Thanks Brittguy you have proven my point,they can still breed,they can still smell a bitch in heat,they can still lift their leg,they can & will still fight,& ect.
Like I said they just can not impregnate.If they are under control & not allowed to breed they can not impregnate.
So neutering is for the owners convienuence ,they don't have to keep their dogs under control. :roll:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:21 pm

Of the 5 neutered dogs I have owned, zero mated, or attempted to mate a female. Zero were aggressive. The only time I have had issues with dog aggression is when I hadn't had the dog neutered yet. I like to wait until around 14-15 months to allow the 2ndary sexual characteristics to show themselves.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:27 pm

Birddogz wrote:Of the 5 neutered dogs I have owned, zero mated, or attempted to mate a female. Zero were aggressive. The only time I have had issues with dog aggression is when I hadn't had the dog neutered yet. I like to wait until around 14-15 months to allow the 2ndary sexual characteristics to show themselves.
And even better is wait another few month till they are physically mature. Might just save you a big vet bill later and might lead to a better dog because he is healthy.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by birddogger » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:15 pm

I can't comment on whether or not it changes a dog's behavior, since I have never had it done to any of my dogs, but I do agree with Ted, that in the vast majority of cases, it is done only for the owner's convenience. I do believe though that if somebody cut my testicles out, I would be one mean mother. :mrgreen:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:24 pm

I have had two neutered males die of complications of Cushing's. One Great Pyrenees, one Brittany. I've only had one dog that responded positively to neutering as a treatment for aggression and he had mitigating circumstances.

Testosterone does not cause aggression. Adrenaline causes aggression.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:29 pm

Explain to me why Bucks fight in the fall when their testosterone levels increase. Why do 16 year old kids fight more often than 46 year old men? Why do Elephants become so aggressive during must, when their testosterone levels shoot up?
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by birddogger » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:55 pm

Birddogz wrote:Explain to me why Bucks fight in the fall when their testosterone levels increase. Why do 16 year old kids fight more often than 46 year old men? Why do Elephants become so aggressive during must, when their testosterone levels shoot up?
Birddogz, I think you make a good point and agree with you. However, I am thinking that a dog with aggression problems and/or extremely hyper has something going on other than high testosterone levels, and have trouble believing that neutering will fix it. I have only had one dog in my life with an aggression problem, so I don't have much experience with it, but I am thinking there have probably been as many problem females as there have been problem males.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by wems2371 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:08 pm

Birddogz wrote:Of the 5 neutered dogs I have owned, zero mated, or attempted to mate a female.
It happens. My sister completely flipped out when she came home to find her 3 year old neutered ESS tied with her year old unspayed Golden. That was a memorable phone call I can still giggle about a year later. :D

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Fish 4-5 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:31 am

He has not shown any aggression at all to this point, so thats not the issue with him. I think Mc bosco is right about more women are qiucker to have it done then men. My wife and sister would have it done already but that's not going to happen anytime soon. I want to wait until he is fully mature and re- evaluate. I hate say it but she thinks he will listen to her like he listens to me if if he is fixed. Trying to tell her it's not becuase he still has his package.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:46 am

Fish 4-5 wrote:He has not shown any aggression at all to this point, so thats not the issue with him. I think Mc bosco is right about more women are qiucker to have it done then men. My wife and sister would have it done already but that's not going to happen anytime soon. I want to wait until he is fully mature and re- evaluate. I hate say it but she thinks he will listen to her like he listens to me if if he is fixed. Trying to tell her it's not becuase he still has his package.

Makes a guy wonder whether the girls would have that done to US if they had a chance. :cry:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by big steve46 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:12 am

This reminds me what I heard G. Gordon Lidy once say on his radio show. He said during a conversation about PETA, "If dog is truly man's best friend, why would you cut his nuts out!" :)
big steve

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by jlp8cornell » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:34 am

Makes a guy wonder whether the girls would have that done to US if they had a chance. :cry:
It does cross our minds from time to time. :lol:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:50 am

Well it certainly has been done & attempted more then once.Some manage to do it with out actual amputation!!

Oh Birddogz my females are more aggressive & bitchy then my males & lack all that testosterone you say causes it :idea: :lol:

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:10 am

Just an observation: many people think castrating males (that is the correct term, by the way) is a panacea for behavioral problems. So, they overlook issues in the beginning with an, "Oh, he wouldn't, he's fixed," mentality. Before long, they have a leg hiking, fence fighting, obnoxious mutt and no clue how it could be because they had him neutered at six months. Proof that the brain exists seperately from the male reproductive organs.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:30 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Oh Birddogz my females are more aggressive & bitchy then my males & lack all that testosterone you say causes it
He never said testosterone was the ONLY cause of aggression. There are thousands of studies by now that demonstrate a link between testosterone and aggression, that's old news. Sometimes the research methodology is better at pointing out tendencies or trends in general than it is at explaining reactions by individuals.

I saw a Schutzhund club t-shirt the other day with this on it:

Bitches leave stitches.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Birddogz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:37 am

Exactly AZHusker. There are numerous variables that cause aggression. There are environmental and genetic factors. Testosterone levels are merely one among many. I never said that neutering will solve all aggression issues, just that it can contribute.
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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:55 am

Yes & all I'm saying is neutering does not stop aggression & that has been my point from the beginning.
Neutering stops nothing but impregnation.

Every time aggression is brought up the first solution mentioned is neutering & that is not the answer.It stops NONE of the fighting,marking,humping,smelling females in heat,or breeding just the final result."PREGNANCY"

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:15 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:It stops NONE of the fighting,marking,humping,smelling females in heat,or breeding just the final result."PREGNANCY"
I hear you, VZ, you are saying "don't overgeneralize about neutering to stop aggression." I get what you are saying.

However, when you say "It stops NONE of the fighting, etc" aren't you generalizing yourself to all dogs and all cases?

I'm against castration at all among sporting dogs if it can be avoided. Stray mutts, pound mutts should probably be sterilized, and "the chop" is the most cost effective way to do it (as opposed to vasectomy).

However, I personally witnessed a yearling Akita/German Shep mix show a substantial decrease in male-related aggressive behaviors after castration over a six-month period in which we kept him this summer. This was a rescue mutt that we eventually rehomed.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:32 pm

I'm just saying the answer to aggression is not neutering it does not Gaurantee it like some here are suggesting.
There has also been atleast one guy on here that had just the opposite happen.
He owned a non aggressive ADULT dog the dog was neutered & become aggrressive.So maybe I'm generalising but ones suggesting it will stop it are aswell.

The ONLY thing it will STOP for sure is IMPEGNATION but so will keeping your dog under control & not allowing to breed,But that's not CONVIENIENT!!!!

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:13 pm

I guess the answer is the same as the one to so many other dog-related situations: It depends.

Castration is not a guarantee for anything except unwanted conception. In some cases it has been perceived as decreasing male-related behaviors, in other cases caused no change, and in still other cases seems to have increased the unwanted behaviors.

Castration is "over recommended" by lots of folks who make assumptions that may not be valid. The science behind it is too general to guide a blanket policy for all dogs as a "cure" for unwanted sex-related behaviors, and there is research accumulating that demonstrates harmful affects of castration prior to sexual maturity. Whew.

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Re: Nuetering Question

Post by dog dr » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:04 pm

AzHusker wrote:I guess the answer is the same as the one to so many other dog-related situations: It depends.

Castration is not a guarantee for anything except unwanted conception. In some cases it has been perceived as decreasing male-related behaviors, in other cases caused no change, and in still other cases seems to have increased the unwanted behaviors.

Castration is "over recommended" by lots of folks who make assumptions that may not be valid. The science behind it is too general to guide a blanket policy for all dogs as a "cure" for unwanted sex-related behaviors, and there is research accumulating that demonstrates harmful affects of castration prior to sexual maturity. Whew.

well said!

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