natural/alternative treatments?

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anb
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natural/alternative treatments?

Post by anb » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:32 am

Hi there! I am doing a speech project on different forms of natural and alternative treatments in animals. I am wondering if any of you use/have used any type of these therapies with your dogs or other animals? I have been doing some book and journal research, but would like to hear from the public and possibly any vets on the subject and their personal experiences. I am interested in the type of animal that underwent the treatment, what type of treatment it was and what that entailed, and the results of the treatment. Feel free to PM me if you prefer.
Thanks!!
Andrea

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by jlp8cornell » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:34 am

You may want to ask this on a K9 cancer or orthopedic forum. I bet you would get lots of feedback. Jen

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:01 am

I have noticed quite a few, especially herbal related products for skin and enzyme & pre/probiotic digestive products.

Also, and this is a big one, is the willingness of many Vets to use limited vaccine protocols. This to me is the most valuable of the alternative "treatments".

Why should Gramma's Miniature Schnauzer get a Lepto vaccine?

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:26 am

mcbosco wrote:I have noticed quite a few, especially herbal related products for skin and enzyme & pre/probiotic digestive products.

Also, and this is a big one, is the willingness of many Vets to use limited vaccine protocols. This to me is the most valuable of the alternative "treatments".

Why should Gramma's Miniature Schnauzer get a Lepto vaccine?
Because Gramma's minature schnauzer might get hold of a rat. But, unless Tootles has the correct lepto vax for the rat borne variety, he's at risk anyway.

I've used a lot of non-traditional therapies and have had good results. Herbal and nutritional supplements are pretty mainstream in specialty retail. It's when you get into stuff like homeopathy that most people need to hang it up before they hurt something.
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:30 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
mcbosco wrote:I have noticed quite a few, especially herbal related products for skin and enzyme & pre/probiotic digestive products.

Also, and this is a big one, is the willingness of many Vets to use limited vaccine protocols. This to me is the most valuable of the alternative "treatments".

Why should Gramma's Miniature Schnauzer get a Lepto vaccine?
Because Gramma's minature schnauzer might get hold of a rat. But, unless Tootles has the correct lepto vax for the rat borne variety, he's at risk anyway.

I've used a lot of non-traditional therapies and have had good results. Herbal and nutritional supplements are pretty mainstream in specialty retail. It's when you get into stuff like homeopathy that most people need to hang it up before they hurt something.
Gramma's MS goes for a walk 4 times a day and has never seen a rat. Up until recently that dog received a cocktail of vaccines that it never needed, we all know that.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:36 am

Well, if you need a counterpoint Andrea, some folks believe the dogs are "just animals" (and therefore will survive or not based on their genetic makeup). Not my point of view, but it gives you a contrast point.

Here's a quote for ya if you want one:
"The fate of animals is of greater importance to me
than the fear of appearing ridiculous;
it is indissolubly connected with the fate of men."

- Emile Zola (1840-1902)
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:48 am

The most common way Granny's little dog contacts lepto is sniffing or licking the grass or soil where a dog with it has urinated. I would advise Granny to get the lepto vaccination if she is going to be walking her dog in town where other dogs are being walked also. Probably not as apt to catch it out in the field however we constantly run into it with our hogs and cattle so it is possible to get it most any place.

Think it is an individual decision but since much of our livestock is vaccinated for it, we don't hear as much about it anymore. But I am sure it will reappear if everyone quits vaccinating.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:08 am

With twenty plus kinds of lepto out there, it can get a little overwhelming. My beef with the AVMA and the pharmcos is that there are diseases that are neglected. Tetanus, for one. Very little out there on it and dogs do get it and die from it. But, by God, in a big money industry like horses, there is a protocol for prevention and treatment. Another transzoonotic that will become more common, I feel, is pseudorabies because of the growing numbers of feral hogs which are a repository for it.
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by dog dr » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:10 am

mcbosco wrote:I have noticed quite a few, especially herbal related products for skin and enzyme & pre/probiotic digestive products.

Also, and this is a big one, is the willingness of many Vets to use limited vaccine protocols. This to me is the most valuable of the alternative "treatments".

Why should Gramma's Miniature Schnauzer get a Lepto vaccine?


because just as soon as grammas little snookums does contract lepto (which granted, may be a small chance, but it has happened before, and can happen), she is gonna sue the pants off that nice young alternative therapy vet that told her snookums didnt need that vaccine.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:14 am

dog dr wrote:
mcbosco wrote:I have noticed quite a few, especially herbal related products for skin and enzyme & pre/probiotic digestive products.

Also, and this is a big one, is the willingness of many Vets to use limited vaccine protocols. This to me is the most valuable of the alternative "treatments".

Why should Gramma's Miniature Schnauzer get a Lepto vaccine?


because just as soon as grammas little snookums does contract lepto (which granted, may be a small chance, but it has happened before, and can happen), she is gonna sue the pants off that nice young alternative therapy vet that told her snookums didnt need that vaccine.
Right on! It's always the people who complain about too much that sue when there is too little. Just hard for some to take personal responsibility and yet find the need to critize whatever someone else does.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:17 am

Out where you guys live dog ailments are totally different, due to the environment, use of the dog and the predominant breeds. Any East Coast vet will tell you more than 50% of his/her patients have disorders or other problems linked to obesity and another 25% due to breed, like bulldog ailments.

Things like lepto and tetanus, even common intestinal parasites, don't even register here for the vast majority of dogs.

The accepted vaccine protocol just doesn't apply to Nanna's dog and many dogs like her's, heck does Corona Virus even exist?

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:26 am

Should titer tests replace scheduled vaccinations? Do nosodes work? Is vaccination site sarcoma a real issue?
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:34 am

When we have taken our dogs to the vet they dont have to convince me to vaccinate for everything ..including revolution that prevents lyme disease from ticks..the places we take our dogs are places anything can be brewin' .. for the sake of a few bucks for each vaccine and the benefits it provides we tell our vet to do it all..any prevention is cheaper than it would be to treat any of these diseases!!.....ruth
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:41 am

GUNDOGS wrote:When we have taken our dogs to the vet they dont have to convince me to vaccinate for everything ..including revolution that prevents lyme disease from ticks..the places we take our dogs are places anything can be brewin' .. for the sake of a few bucks for each vaccine and the benefits it provides we tell our vet to do it all..any prevention is cheaper than it would be to treat any of these diseases!!.....ruth
This approach is old school and has been discredited by long-term research on immunity. I live in the single worst area in the US and perhaps the world for lyme and even here the lyme vaccine is not a priority because it does not last long, is not that effective and treating a dog in the unlikely case it comes down with it is easy.

The vets can correct me on this but I believe every vet school in the country teaches some form of Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol. There might be circumstances where another is warranted but that is the minority of dogs.

Titers? Yes....

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:45 am

Dr. Dodd's protocol is a recipe for dead puppies in my part of the country.
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by jlp8cornell » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:49 am

For the general populations' dogs that are primarily house dogs and are leash walked, there is no reason to vaccinate for Lepto, Lymes, etc. I only give my grandparent's 16 yr old dog Rabies and take complete responsibility if something were to happen, which is very unlikely. And we all know dogs vaccinated for Lepto and especially Lymes are not 100% protected against the disease. I know quite a few dogs who test Lymes + that have been vaccinated. And Lepto vaccine has a high incidence of reaction.

However, my dogs get everything because of the environment they are in. You have to look at this on a case-by-case basis and make the right decision for each dog. Either way there is no guarantee and you have to look at the pros and cons depending on the dog. I spoke to 2 DVMs that are virologists/infectious disease and made a decision based on their expert opinion.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:01 am

The spirit of this thread is general, regarding alternative approaches. It is noted that some dogs may need different vaccines than others.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:11 am

mcbosco wrote:The spirit of this thread is general, regarding alternative approaches. It is noted that some dogs may need different vaccines than others.


So if it is general, lets stop recommending your favorite protocol or what your dog needs. Instead lets advise people to follow their vets recommendations as he is not only trained but knows what is best for your area.

It always bothers me to see advice from someone without the credentials that it requires instead of just telling people do follow their vets recommendation. I still think medical decisions should be between you and your doctor or in this case your vet.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:15 am

If you take the time to read my posts I did not recommend anything to anyone. You always talk about agendas but look in the mirror.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:36 am

mcbosco wrote:If you take the time to read my posts I did not recommend anything to anyone. You always talk about agendas but look in the mirror.
Gramma's MS goes for a walk 4 times a day and has never seen a rat. Up until recently that dog received a cocktail of vaccines that it never needed, we all know that.
This approach is old school and has been discredited by long-term research on immunity. I live in the single worst area in the US and perhaps the world for lyme and even here the lyme vaccine is not a priority because it does not last long, is not that effective and treating a dog in the unlikely case it comes down with it is easy.
Good to know these two examples just in this topic are not backhanded recommendations. Or should we just say advice. Or maybe just criticism of what our vets do . I'm not sure.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:39 am

mcbosco wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:When we have taken our dogs to the vet they dont have to convince me to vaccinate for everything ..including revolution that prevents lyme disease from ticks..the places we take our dogs are places anything can be brewin' .. for the sake of a few bucks for each vaccine and the benefits it provides we tell our vet to do it all..any prevention is cheaper than it would be to treat any of these diseases!!.....ruth
This approach is old school and has been discredited by long-term research on immunity. I live in the single worst area in the US and perhaps the world for lyme and even here the lyme vaccine is not a priority because it does not last long, is not that effective and treating a dog in the unlikely case it comes down with it is easy.

The vets can correct me on this but I believe every vet school in the country teaches some form of Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol. There might be circumstances where another is warranted but that is the minority of dogs.

Titers? Yes....
what is old school?..vaccines? or just lyme vaccines? when i told my vet of the places we travel and the areas our dogs would be he agreed with me that the dog should be vaccinated, dewormed often(every 6 months) and given heartworm prevention..do you have other suggestions? by the way i am honestly interested in your suggestions not being sarcastic!! im not opposed to hearing other peoples knowledge!! :) .....ruth
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:52 pm

I think the original question was about alternative therapy, right?

Some that I am familiar with through my own use and through clients' reports are: homeopathy, naturopathy, herbal therapy, Bach's flower therapy, iridology, kinestheology, Reiki, traditional Chinese five element, and communicator. Things like chiropractic treatment, nutritional supplements, accupuncture, massage, cold laser, and water resistance therapy are fairly mainstream now and I wouldn't consider them alternative.
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:37 pm

Mcbosco is talking about the theory that is being practised today of less vacinations especially in the older dog where in the past we have given booster shots and such. There is some truth I think that our dogs have been vaccinated more than necessary but the downside was almost non existant so we continued doing it. There is a faction out there today that are trying to pin all sorts of problems on ovr vaccination and the results are that some are now suggesting we cut back on a lot of them. Like everything else probably some truth in what they are saying but they are swinging just as far to the other side as we have been for some time. I still advocate to follow what your local vets prescribe if you want to be completely safe. But there is some wiggle room if you so desire.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Mcbosco is talking about the theory that is being practised today of less vacinations especially in the older dog where in the past we have given booster shots and such. There is some truth I think that our dogs have been vaccinated more than necessary but the downside was almost non existant so we continued doing it. There is a faction out there today that are trying to pin all sorts of problems on ovr vaccination and the results are that some are now suggesting we cut back on a lot of them. Like everything else probably some truth in what they are saying but they are swinging just as far to the other side as we have been for some time. I still advocate to follow what your local vets prescribe if you want to be completely safe. But there is some wiggle room if you so desire.

Ezzy
I understand, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Now, if the use of nosodes was being discussed, that would be alternative.
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:16 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Mcbosco is talking about the theory that is being practised today of less vacinations especially in the older dog where in the past we have given booster shots and such. There is some truth I think that our dogs have been vaccinated more than necessary but the downside was almost non existant so we continued doing it. There is a faction out there today that are trying to pin all sorts of problems on ovr vaccination and the results are that some are now suggesting we cut back on a lot of them. Like everything else probably some truth in what they are saying but they are swinging just as far to the other side as we have been for some time. I still advocate to follow what your local vets prescribe if you want to be completely safe. But there is some wiggle room if you so desire.

Ezzy
I understand, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Now, if the use of nosodes was being discussed, that would be alternative.
I agree but I was just answering Ruth's question. But vaccinations have nothing to do with this topic.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:34 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Mcbosco is talking about the theory that is being practised today of less vacinations especially in the older dog where in the past we have given booster shots and such. There is some truth I think that our dogs have been vaccinated more than necessary but the downside was almost non existant so we continued doing it. There is a faction out there today that are trying to pin all sorts of problems on ovr vaccination and the results are that some are now suggesting we cut back on a lot of them. Like everything else probably some truth in what they are saying but they are swinging just as far to the other side as we have been for some time. I still advocate to follow what your local vets prescribe if you want to be completely safe. But there is some wiggle room if you so desire.

Ezzy
I understand, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Now, if the use of nosodes was being discussed, that would be alternative.
I agree but I was just answering Ruth's question. But vaccinations have nothing to do with this topic.

Ezzy
Thanks ezzy..but the reason i commented about vaccinations is because lepto vaccines were being discussed..whether or not grammas dog needs them, so vaccines were being discussed in this topic many times including tetnus!! and my question is still not answered by mcbosco who stated its oldschool to vaccinate but did not answer yet of what other suggestions of alternative medicine would be used in his opinion to replace the vaccines i get to protect my dogs from lepto,lyme, parvo ect..stillwaiting!!.....ruth
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by jlp8cornell » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:02 am

my question is still not answered by mcbosco who stated its oldschool to vaccinate
Ruth...I think he was talking about the frequency in which dogs used to be vaccinated. I interpret 'old school' to be vaccinating dogs every year, whereas in most places they are now boosted every 3 years (DHLPP and Rabies). Some DVMs recommend not vaccinating older dogs for anything but required Rabies now. I know people who have spent the money to do titer checks and the dogs have all had high titers years after being vaccinated.

You said you do Lepto and Lymes which have a much shorter efficacy period and so are done every year. In fact around here, the Lymes vaccine isn't working on a lot of dogs and they are testing positive. A lot of dogs test positive but are asymptomatic. Lepto is controversial in that it has a greater chance of side effects then other vaccines plus it doesn't work on all strains. I still do both of these on my young dog.

The best thing to do is talk to your DVM or even try and contact someone who studies vaccine protocol/efficacy/etc. That's what I did. Then you can make the best decision based on your own dogs, what part of the country you are in, what diseases are common, etc.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:38 am

Ruth,

The original poster's question is about alternative treatments. In my opinion, the most profound is that Vets and Vet Schools do not support the annual cocktail of vaccines that dogs IN THE GENERAL POPULATION have been getting with very little question for years and years. My vet does not vaccinate as a general rule after age 1 unless it is required by law, rabies for example, or there are special circumstances like Bordetella for boarding, but not limited to that.

When it comes to Lyme, I live in the single worst geographic region in the country and many Vets don't even stock the vaccine. I don't know if you are aware but there is risk that the dog contracts an untreatable form of Lyme from the vaccine. The vaccine is pitched as 90% effective, yes that is true but 90% effective against what risk? Even if you live in a high risk area where 50% of the ticks carry the bacteria only about 1-2 dogs of of 100 will show any Lyme symptoms, which are easily treated with common antibiotics. So 90% effective is really not that impressive. It is even less impressive when you factor in that it lasts at best for 6 months. You should evaluate the risks in your area, but I do recall that Canada as a whole has the lowest risk of Lyme infection in the world. There must be a Lyme risk map for Canada.

Lepto is more complex because the infection can be severe. However, in my opinion the general population has been getting the Lepto vaccine for years where there is very little risk. I go back to my grandmother's house dog, why risk the reaction for a house dog? If you live in area where Lepto risk is high, then you have a different situation, but do check whether the strains of Lepto are covered by the vaccines in the marketplace.

I think it is pretty clear from the research that has been done that the general population receives too many vaccines.

JMO

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:42 pm

Ok, i see what you are saying ..the issue i have is we live about a half an hour from the CANADIAN/U.S border and frequently go over to the US to michigan and ohio to hunt and its a pain going over as it is because we cant even bring our own dog food :evil: ..so we have to buy it over in the US and whatevers left throw out or give away when we come back to canada!! also we have to show health certificates and rabies certificates as well as vet check up within 30 days showing all shots up to date ect..if we didnt vacciniate every year as recommended by the vet we wouldnt be able to go across..well i didnt mean to lead the thread in a different direction but i had read the issue over lepto being a need or not and carona virus brought up so thought id jump in...thanks for the info...ruth
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:43 pm

I tend to agree with what Sal is saying but I wouldn't use the fact that vaccinations are a problem since it happens so seldom. Just not a feesable excuse not to vaccinate. But I am convinced and have been for years that it was unwarranted to give booster shots to adult dogs, even rabies but we have to do that one every three years because of an out of date law.

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by anb » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:21 am

Cajun Casey wrote:I think the original question was about alternative therapy, right?

Some that I am familiar with through my own use and through clients' reports are: homeopathy, naturopathy, herbal therapy, Bach's flower therapy, iridology, kinestheology, Reiki, traditional Chinese five element, and communicator. Things like chiropractic treatment, nutritional supplements, accupuncture, massage, cold laser, and water resistance therapy are fairly mainstream now and I wouldn't consider them alternative.

This is more along the lines I was intending when I originally wrote the post. I didn't mean to start a vaccination debate .. . :roll:
A
Although since the topic has been brought up, I would like to mention that my vet reccommended against the Lepto vaccine (and no it isn't a holistic vet, just "regular"). I told them I would be hunting the dog in different parts of the state (Maine), not just the island that the vet is on. They claim to have no reported cases of Lepto, but couldn't really give me a straight answer about whether that was on the island (MDI - tourist island, not much livestock) or throughout the state.

@gundogs: I would be interested in the specifics of what documentation is needed to cross the US/Canada border, as I plan on taking my girl with me to Alaska this summer. We are hoping to drive, but it may end up being a flight. So also, if anyone could give me feedback on flying their pets I would really appreciate it! She is really skiddish around new people, and I fell like flying that far with flight changes might reallly really stress her out!


I realize we are a bit off-topic here, but i really appreciate all of the valuable feedback!!!!!!!!!
ANdrea

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GUNDOGS
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:08 am

Hi andrea, sorry for your post going off topic..but i will tell you that its hit or miss with customs going across..some will ask for the rabies certificate which if its a 1 year booster has to be dated within that year and also if its the 3 year than dated within 3 years..also the health booklet showing vaccines of the dog (only if the dog is over 8 weeks old)..and a certificate of health which is a certificate showing the dog has been cleared for any diseases ect within 30 days..some dont ask at all but i play it safe and have it all!!..another issue is dog food..they dont allow ALOT of foods over each way so call the border you will be using to find out cause the first time we were going to hunt in ohio and had a 30 pound bag of food they threw it out!! ..i believe the same requirements are needed for flying from us to canada as well and visa versa..our pup is being shipped from tennessee to detroit metro so its within the u.s but i still need all the documents because of driving over the border..hope that helps..also i could have had her flown by another airline but they had layovers and we wanted less stress on the dog as well so we went with delta as it is straight threw..did you shop around airlines to see if there are straight threw flights for less stress on the dog or do they all layover?..you can pm me if you want :D .....ruth
GUNDOGS SHORTCREEK IRON HORSE (HARLEY)

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anb
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by anb » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:21 pm

mcbosco wrote: Any East Coast vet will tell you more than 50% of his/her patients have disorders or other problems linked to obesity
Not only the patients - but their owners too!!!! :lol: I would wager abouve 50% in the owners, in my area for sure! :P

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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by GUNDOGS » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:33 pm

anb wrote:
mcbosco wrote: Any East Coast vet will tell you more than 50% of his/her patients have disorders or other problems linked to obesity
Not only the patients - but their owners too!!!! :lol: I would wager abouve 50% in the owners, in my area for sure! :P
UH OH, so me and my dog shouldnt be goin for a doughnut and coffee every morning!!! dont tell HIM that :twisted: ...ruth
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Re: natural/alternative treatments?

Post by mcbosco » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:46 am

GUNDOGS wrote:
anb wrote:
mcbosco wrote: Any East Coast vet will tell you more than 50% of his/her patients have disorders or other problems linked to obesity
Not only the patients - but their owners too!!!! :lol: I would wager abouve 50% in the owners, in my area for sure! :P
UH OH, so me and my dog shouldnt be goin for a doughnut and coffee every morning!!! dont tell HIM that :twisted: ...ruth
LOL no doughnuts. Though a Pea Bacon Sandwich is ok Ruth, :wink:

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