What Dog Food and Why?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Ezzy if they ever have a dog BLOAT they will start to think different but it's a shame the dog has to pay first. :roll:

[mcbosco]

I am not an advocate of exercise close to feeding time, but the follow-up studies done by Glickman found the following:


"Factors That Make Difference - These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect:

Restricting exercise before or after eating
Restricting water intake before and/or after meals
Feeding two or more meals per day
Moistening dry kibble before feeding

Factors That DO Make A Difference

These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs

1)Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat
2)Speed of eating -Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat
3)Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older.
4)Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%"


It is interesting that a many dogs bloat in the middle of the night on empty stomach. This is one reason why feeding a dog 6 cups of kibble and a kibble size that is too small is just a bad idea.

[ezzy333]

These four (4) factors ARE associated with an increased risk of bloat in large breed dogs

1)Raising the food dish more than doubled the risk for bloat
2)Speed of eating -Dogs rated by their owners as very fast eaters had a 38% increased risk of bloat
3)Age: The study found that risk increased by 20% with each year of age. Owners should be more alert to early signs of bloat as their dogs grow older.
4)Family History: Having a first-degree relative (parent, sibling or offspring) that had bloated increased a dog's risk by 63%"

Two comments, I don't see a thing there that indicates the amount of feed has a thing to do with bloat. Why was that your first suggestion?

It is interesting that a many dogs bloat in the middle of the night on empty stomach. This is one reason why feeding a dog 6 cups of kibble and a kibble size that is too small is just a bad idea

Huh? Dogs stonach being empty is one reason you shouldn't feed 6 cups? And the size of the kibble wasn't mentioned either. But an empty stomach doesn't seem to have a thing to do with how much or what size since it is gone and wasn't the problem.

Let me give you my idea about most perceived dog nutritional problems. Feed seldom is the cause and seldom will be involved in the solution so that is the last resort and not the first that I look for to solve a problem. This case is a good example. When a dog is thin the first thing to do is increase the feed. And after trying everything you can do then and only then do I change feeds as the last resort. It hasn't failed me yet.

And knowing what causes bloat and how you can reduce the chances will still be a priority such as reducing the amount and weight of the material in the stomach when running hard. But I would do that for the general health of the dog anyway. These other points you listed are a recent suggestion and are worth our concern and any effort to reduce the chances of the problem. Again not a point to argue but rather a point to learn from and do everything you can to take care of the needs of your dog.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

I was in a rush before. The follow-up studies done by Glickman also cited volume fed and kibble size smaller than 30mm.

I did not write my last point properly. I was responding to the conventional wisdom that exercise around feeding time is a major cause of bloat. Since a very large number of dogs bloat on an empty stomach while sleeping exercise is not a prime cause. Glickman determined:

"These measures, long been thought to reduce the risk of bloat, were found to have no effect:

Restricting exercise before or after eating
Restricting water intake before and/or after meals
Feeding two or more meals per day
Moistening dry kibble before feeding"

Also from the follow-up studies:

"Proportionate energy consumed from major food types and from carbohydrates was determined. Dogs were categorized as consuming either a low volume or high volume of food based on the median number of cups of food fed per kg of body weight per meal. Dogs fed a larger volume of food per meal were at a significantly increased risk of GDV, regardless of the number of meals fed daily"

[ezzy333]

Would it make any sense to you to just post what new things you have learn might add to the problem and let the things that we already know might add to it rather than have this debate every time someone mentions the things that we already know might be a factor since no one knows exactly what causes it or how to stop it since it seems to be different in every dog. We do know that material in the gut has caused a problem when combined with heavy exercise. We know that deep chested dogs seem to be at greater risk than other dogs. What we don't know is how much anyone is feeding at a meal whether the dog is getting 6, 9, 0r 3 cups a day. and we have no reason to think any other feed would be better.

So lets just say don't feed before exercise, or too quickly after exercise, and follow the 4 points that have recently been added to the possible causes and you will be doing your dog a favor. It is not an either/or preposition since the cause has not been determined as it varies from one dog to another.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

The information and opinion can be used by forum members as they see fit. The point that 6 cups for a 50-60lb dog may be unhealthy was brought up. That is far in excess of the guidance of 1 cup per 35lbs of body weight split into 2 feedings per day.

Bloat is a very complex condition, we all know that, but the obvious risks should be addressed.

[jlp8cornell]

Ezzy: How does it make sense to feed a GSP 6+ cups/day? Why wouldn't you try less of a more calorie dense feed? It can't be a cost issue because you would be feeding much more of the "cheaper" food.

Just curious what your rationale is.

[rkappes]

Started with Orijen (got expensive and energy level didn't seem real high, great coat, great stools)
TOTW - (Bit cheaper then Orijen. Energy level still not where we wanted, great coat, great stools)
Diamond Extreme - (Inexpensive, poor coat, inconsistent stools, bad gas but energy level out of this world!)
NutriSource - (Currently feeding this. Great coat, reasonably priced, good stools and great energy level)

All four feeds are readily available in our area. Will probably be sticking with NutriSource for now and switch over to NutriSource Performance eventually.

[claybuster_aa]

I've read a lot of posts on dog food.

What dog food do you use and why? Is it price or nutrition, rice, chicken, etc.

What makes you buy the dog food you use?

I noticed 4health at Tractor Supply - never used it. Iams, pedigree, purina dog chow, purina pro plan.

So many to choose from.

I feel it is just as important what is NOT in dog food when it comes to making a selection as to what is in the food. I buy and feed what I use because it DOES NOT include fruits and vegetables and DOES contains BY-Product Meals. I would stay away from any food where the labels starts off with CHICKEN. Chicken (or beef) as a starter ingredient are IMO some of the worst diets imaginable because that it translates into very little animal source proteins and when you read further down the list you'll find that vegetable and plant protein dominate the protein core of the food. IMO this is a mistake when it comes to feeding dogs and the only way to deliver what the dog needs in regards to protein is to select a ration with plenty of By-Product Meals and Meals. That would be the best way to ensure the dog is getting what it needs most, which is the highest concentrations of animal source proteins, as opposed to gluten source proteins. There are many popular food critic websites out there that amount to popular sources of misinformation, they've never made dog food, support the same agenda and the big companies in the hopes you will feed your dog like an omnivore (fruits, veg, plants), for they are the most profitable diets for these big companies. Dogs being carnivores should have the highest possible concentrations of meat and fats and you can only achieve that by staying away from those profitable omnivore diets and look in the direction of diets containing meals and by-product meals. I've been feeding my dog Abady Granular diets going on 9 years now.

Charlie

[windswept]

Charlie,
In part I agree with you. Biproduct meal can be a great source of nutrients. However, the presence of plant material (I assume you mean corn) anywhere in the ingredient listing is no sign of inferior dog food. It is not my preference but honestly most dogs do quite well on it. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with chicken as the first ingredient but when it is I would prefer to see another animal source protein as the second ingredient.
We are really quite fortunate in that there are MANY good dog foods in the market to choose from.
Good thread.
I am feeding Nutri-Source. The dogs seem to be doing pretty well on it and the price is reasonable for my budget.

[SubMariner]

Perhaps everyone with side debates other than the thread topic might consider taking them to PMs or a separate discussion ?

JMHO,

[claybuster_aa]

Charlie,
... However, the presence of plant material (I assume you mean corn) anywhere in the ingredient listing is no sign of inferior dog food. It is not my preference but honestly most dogs do quite well on it. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with chicken as the first ingredient ...

I wasn't referring to one specific source like a grain, but speaking more in a broad sense when it comes to plant matter. I see a lot of ingredients that IMO do not belong in dog food that are plant based. Seaweed is a good example of plant matter I would not care to see in my dogs food (kelp). Common lawn weeds found in dog food like Dandelion is another example. Yucca, garlic, chicory root, alfalfa sprouts, and savory are more examples of plants found in dog food. I don't care for flowering plants either when it comes to dogs food like Marigold. When I look at some of the ingredients found in dog food I can only scratch my head and wonder. The problem is not so much one or two plant based ingredients appearing in a feed, but rather the entire structure of a feed. I think there are plenty of feeds masquerading as 'chicken based' or 'meat based' giving the consumer the impression they are buying something quality when the reality is when you look at the big picture, the feed would have more plant protein than animal protein. I see that as not being a benefit to the animal. When considering the long time non-meat based staples (corn, rice, barley, etc.), I don't look at them the same way as I would with the roots, stems and other flowering type ingredients commonly found in dog food. Those staple ingredients could interfere with the protein numbers when looking for animal source proteins, however if they don't dominate the protein core I think they are okay.

[claybuster_aa]

Perhaps everyone with side debates other than the thread topic might consider taking them to PMs or a separate discussion ?

JMHO,

Hi Sub, hope the dog is doing well. In the topic was a question... what makes you buy the dog food you use. I don't feel like I have been off topic with my post because, like I mentioned, I feel it is equally important what is NOT in the food along with what is in the food.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Grousehunter74,
Because you are a Grouse hunter and I train and raise Grouse dogs that spend a great deal of time hunting and training in all kinds of different weather,
I will tell you what I feed on a daily basis. Our main bulk feed is Exceed Chicken & Rice. During Grouse season each dog gets some Deer meat mixed in to his individual feed. From time to time I mix 40lbs of Diamond Large Breed Plus 60 into the bulk feeder. I tried to add some good Pork based feed to my bulk mix, to keep down the cost, however one of my dogs ended up being alergic to the Pork based food, so it has for the most part been eliminated from our feed plan. The dogs are heathy, fit and trim no ear infections, eye problems of any kind. The dogs work energetically, scenting ability very high, coats sheds water well and shine beautifully. The cost for all this
dog feed is reasonable in my area, you would need to check the prices in your area, if you want to feed something similar.

RGD/Dave