To spay or not to spay? What age?

[Kiki]

This poll is in response to a previous question posted in this section. I have a 4 month EP that I was planning on having spayed on April 14. However in light of the information I viewed on the other thread, I am contimplating whether or not I should postpone till a later time. I would rather get it done sooner as I do not want to have the burden of finding good homes for any puppies she may have, not to mention we are surrounded by toy poodles (6)from various neighbors that can and do easily squeeze thru our fence and pay her a visit every now and again. No offense to toy poodle owners, but the combination doesn't really put a smile on my face. However I do not want to cause her any developmental problems due to her being altered.

Admins... I apologize if this poll is in the wrong section. I figured it would get more views here. Please move as you see fit.

[Brittlover]

I know I'm new on here, but this is really a love hate topic to me. My answer would be........ it depends.

The options are, pediatric spay/neuter which was basically started by the SPCA so that the dogs/cats they have do not go on to make more unwanted pets. I've had one dog that was done at 12 weeks because he had to go in for major surgery (leg was broken as a pup and wasn't picked up on until I got him at 10 weeks) so the vet threw the neutering in for free. That dog, as sweet as he was, was the stupidest dog I have ever known, he never got out of the puppy stage. Now whether he was born that way, something happened with the anaesthesia during surgery, or it was because of the early neutering, I can't say. I also have a cat that was neutered at 10 weeks (a present from my husband because I lost my 4 old cats within months of each other) he's the smallest cat I have ever met and is basically a 4-year-old kitten.

Here's an article on human Castrato, I believe the physiological responses would be similar.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Castrato

Castration before puberty (or in its early stages) prevents a boy's larynx from being transformed by the normal physiological events of puberty. As a result, the vocal range of prepubescence (shared by both sexes) is largely retained, and thus the voice develops into adulthood uniquely. As the castrato's body grows, his lack of testosterone causes his epiphyses (bone-joints) to not harden in the normal manner. Thus, the limbs of the castrati often grew unusually long, as did the bones of their ribs. This, combined with intensive training, gave castrati unrivaled lung-power and breath capacity. Operating through small, child-sized vocal cords, their voices were also extraordinarily flexible, and quite different from the equivalent adult female voice, as well as higher vocal ranges of the uncastrated adult male (such as a soprano, mezzo-soprano, alto, sopranist, countertenor or contralto). Listening to a castrato sing, one can hear that the lower part of the voice sounds like a "super-high" tenor, with a more falsetto-like upper register above that.

Personally I believe that if you are SURE you are not going to use your dog for showing or breeding, then I would spay/neuter around the 6-9 months of age. Basically they've got most of their growth in, but you're de-sexing them before the breeding drives kick in. I've seen and heard of dogs doing some wacky stuff to get together. So unless you are 100% sure you can keep her safe during her heats, I would say this is the time to do it. It's also the age that we've been neutering/spaying for decades now, without a lot of concern. Yes I've read the recent reports about it, but I would like to know who paid for these studies, where they got the numbers from, etc.

Older spay/neuter, sure. Sometimes it's a dog that didn't turn into the show prospect you wanted. Sometimes it's for medical reasons, but realize that neutering/spaying at an older age does not have the same effect on sex drive/aggression that it does if you did it under a year of age. Sage was done at 2 years old and at 10 he's still the ladies man and still wants to breed.

[jlp8cornell]

If you are that worried that your EP will be bred by another dog, spay her. Sounds like your fence isn't tight and dogs will travel 5 miles or more to a bitch in heat. I know plenty of females that were spayed early with no consequences. If there wasn't a high chance of her being bred and producing more unwanted puppies, I would say wait until she went through her first heat cycle. But, in this case, I would do it before.

You could always postpone it a few months. Ask the breeder when her mother, aunts, etc first came into heat. This usually gives you a decent idea. Being a med-large dog depending on lines, she most likely will not come into heat by 6m.

[Cajun Casey]

Here's a suggestion if you want to wait until after her first heat cycle: board her. Find a boarding facility that understands why you want the dog boarded and is reliable. Perhaps even your vet provides the service. Simple boarding probably costs no more than spaying and you will have six or so months extra for her to mature.

[GUNDOGS]

Kiki, i dont know how much experience you have with a dog in heat but its not always recognized in time before a breeding takes place..there is spotting, and the bitch licks alot but i had a setter bitch that showed barely any signs if not for knowing what was going on i would have had no clue because she barely, i mean barely spotted and she was 8 months old..i did noticed every male dog in the area at the fence and one even jumped it thank goodness she was inside or i would have had setter/shepard pups..this is a very personal decision you have to make and weigh your options..meet with your vet and tell him/her your concerns as well as your intentions with the dog..the vet will give you advice based on your dog and your concerns and then you can decide..if you dont feel comfortable with their advice seek another one..if you choose not to spay her now and feel its best to wait boarding can be expensive you can pay upto 30 bucks a day for upto 18 days the dogs in heat OR you can make sure you NEVER let the dog go unattended outside, keep her on a leash if theres a chance of ANY males getting to her, which by the sounds of 6 poodles there is....ruth

[Cajun Casey]

Five bucks a day, food and walkies where I am for in/out secure run. $30 per diem and they better have room for me, too. That's insane.

[GUNDOGS]

Five bucks a day, food and walkies where I am for in/out secure run. $30 per diem and they better have room for me, too. That's insane.

Ya thats definitely a better price than ive paid..$486 bucks (14 days) no food and no walks provided just frequent potty breaks..my male would have been $289 for neutering so i went to the U.S and paid $75..maybe i need to board my girls there too .....ruth

[jlp8cornell]

Five bucks a day, food and walkies where I am for in/out secure run. $30 per diem and they better have room for me, too. That's insane.

You are kidding right? I have never seen boarding for less then $20-25/day. Walks included?? Yikes...where do you live?

[Cajun Casey]

Five bucks a day, food and walkies where I am for in/out secure run. $30 per diem and they better have room for me, too. That's insane.

You are kidding right? I have never seen boarding for less then $20-25/day. Walks included?? Yikes...where do you live?[/quote

It's on my profile. I'm not talking doggie daycare, I'm talking kenneled with walking out or yard exercise at least once a day. With feed prices up, some places will charge extra if you have them supply feed. I have a boarding dog at my trainer's kennel right now and it's $150 a month, all inclusive. One of the vets I use is $5.00 a day for clients. One of the oldest established boarding kennels is $18.00 per night, food included, for giant breeds and $13.00 for toys. The franchise boarding kennel (Camp BowWow) is double that rate, roughly, at $32.00/dog/day. The locally owned has a year-round full house, the franchise only fills during holidays.

[RoostersMom]

It is your responsibility to keep your dog from producing poodle - pointers. If you can't be absolutely sure you are with her EVERY SECOND that she is in heat, then either board her at a kennel that can do this, or spay her to prevent an unwanted litter. A "whoops" litter is just a fancy way of saying that you have killed the equivalent number of pups. If someone takes your "whoops" puppy, then another puppy, perhaps one in a shelter somewhere, doesn't get that home. Nothing rattles my cage more than irresponsible dog owners who carelessly breed or let their dogs have an accidental litter. I foster way too many good birddogs from the shelter that make good family and hunting companions to ever be casual about producing more pups. You can spay now or do a spay abort later when she gets knocked up by some roaming poodle. Much safer for her to be spayed instead of a spay abort. Or, like the other posters said, find a quality boarding facility that knows why you are boarding her and they'll take precautions.

[ezzy333]

Maybe we should take a poll of all the people on this board that have addeed to the problem by having unwanted litters. I know it happens occassionally and shouldn't be made light of but I am hearing what sounds like near hysteria here when you say you have to be with your dog every second she is in heat. There are a few days in the middle of the heat period where the female will be receptive but the rest of the period is more nusence than anything else. I think you will find that most people with purebred dogs do take care of them and there are few unwanted litters produced. Many of them have males and females both in their kennels and though it is added time careing for the dogs they have little problem otherwise.

As far as having dogs brought to your rescue organization, that will happen as long as it exists and asks people to bring their dogs to you if anyone is having a problem keeping or caring for their dog. When you ask or make it real easy for people to bring their dog to you it will happen instead of them having to find a home for the dog. Its just the way it works. When you offer to do for people what they should be doing themselves you will immediately have people take advantage of the offer and not even try on their own. Seems it is just human nature.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

Maybe we should take a poll of all the people on this board that have addeed to the problem by having unwanted litters. I know it happens occassionally and shouldn't be made light of but I am hearing what sounds like near hysteria here when you say you have to be with your dog every second she is in heat. There are a few days in the middle of the heat period where the female will be receptive but the rest of the period is more nusence than anything else. I think you will find that most people with purebred dogs do take care of them and there are few unwanted litters produced. Many of them have males and females both in their kennels and though it is added time careing for the dogs they have little problem otherwise.

As far as having dogs brought to your rescue organization, that will happen as long as it exists and asks people to bring their dogs to you if anyone is having a problem keeping or caring for their dog. When you ask or make it real easy for people to bring their dog to you it will happen instead of them having to find a home for the dog. Its just the way it works. When you offer to do for people what they should be doing themselves you will immediately have people take advantage of the offer and not even try on their own. Seems it is just human nature.

Ezzy

That is not how rescue works. If you think rescues are out begging for dogs, you are so, so wrong.

As far as the "few days," statement, that's way off base. Females do some weird stuff, regardless of what research tells us.

[bhairhoger]

I said 2-3 years that way I can see what I have before I make the call.

[ezzy333]

Maybe we should take a poll of all the people on this board that have addeed to the problem by having unwanted litters. I know it happens occassionally and shouldn't be made light of but I am hearing what sounds like near hysteria here when you say you have to be with your dog every second she is in heat. There are a few days in the middle of the heat period where the female will be receptive but the rest of the period is more nusence than anything else. I think you will find that most people with purebred dogs do take care of them and there are few unwanted litters produced. Many of them have males and females both in their kennels and though it is added time careing for the dogs they have little problem otherwise.

As far as having dogs brought to your rescue organization, that will happen as long as it exists and asks people to bring their dogs to you if anyone is having a problem keeping or caring for their dog. When you ask or make it real easy for people to bring their dog to you it will happen instead of them having to find a home for the dog. Its just the way it works. When you offer to do for people what they should be doing themselves you will immediately have people take advantage of the offer and not even try on their own. Seems it is just human nature.

Ezzy

That is not how rescue works. If you think rescues are out begging for dogs, you are so, so wrong.

As far as the "few days," statement, that's way off base. Females do some weird stuff, regardless of what research tells us.

Casey,

Believe it or not but I do understand how rescues and heat periods of female dogs work as I have been involved with them for a lot of years. I can't remember seeing any research about either but being around when rescues were started and having a kennel full of dogs for years I can relate quite well. You can go back on this very forum and see people suggesting to other people they call their local rescue group when they had a dog they had to place. They all started as a group that was taking dogs of a specific breed out of the shelters and they still get most of their dogs that way but they do advertise their services and more and more people are aware of them as time goes on. I used to take in dogs and find homes for them when needed but I haven't had a request for several years and I don't go out looking for them.

As far as the heat period I am basically right and that was my point. There are a few females that will stay receptive longer than five to six days and that time can shift during the heat period for different dogs but if you have a female and have any idea at all of what is going on it is quite easy to determine when and how long you need to be careful. My point was that it isn't this long total heat period that is the critical time and they have to be watched every second for that three week period. It's not too unusual to see females in heat running in trials or in the field hunting but probably not for those few critical days when she is receptive.

All of this was posted in relation to what age to spay and if you are willing to chance the physical health and well being of your female just to prevent a puppy from being born, which normally is done with good management, then go ahead with the early neutering of either sex. But if you are more interested in the well being of your dogs then you should wait till they are physically mature at least. Time and experience is a great teacher for those willing to learn.

Ezzy

[RoostersMom]

Maybe we should take a poll of all the people on this board that have addeed to the problem by having unwanted litters. I know it happens occassionally and shouldn't be made light of but I am hearing what sounds like near hysteria here when you say you have to be with your dog every second she is in heat. There are a few days in the middle of the heat period where the female will be receptive but the rest of the period is more nusence than anything else. I think you will find that most people with purebred dogs do take care of them and there are few unwanted litters produced. Many of them have males and females both in their kennels and though it is added time careing for the dogs they have little problem otherwise.

As far as having dogs brought to your rescue organization, that will happen as long as it exists and asks people to bring their dogs to you if anyone is having a problem keeping or caring for their dog. When you ask or make it real easy for people to bring their dog to you it will happen instead of them having to find a home for the dog. Its just the way it works. When you offer to do for people what they should be doing themselves you will immediately have people take advantage of the offer and not even try on their own. Seems it is just human nature.


Ezzy

I have to call BS on that one. "most people with purebred dogs .... few unwanted litters produced" That is a not at all true. More than 40% of the dogs in shelters are purebreds. That means that almost half of the dogs in shelters were from an unwanted litter. And I do think you need to keep an eagle-eye on your dog when it is in heat and outside. Going inside for a drink or to just take a quick bathroom break has resulted in many unwanted litters. You and some other more experienced folks might be very aware of when your dog is receptive, the OP does not sound like that type of person - he/she is wanting the best advice for their dog --- and I think should be prepared to stay with his dog while the ankle biters are out there trying to get at her.

Umm, the rescue organization I work with most is the animal shelter - they don't ask people to bring their dogs in, they actually charge them to leave a dog or litter with them. We surely don't want someone's castoff "whoops" litter, but since they were irresponsible and can't find homes for the pups, we provide a service in trying to rehome those puppies - after, of course, they are spayed and neutered (at 8 weeks old). As for breed specific rescues, we end up with a lot of puppymill or backyard breeder dogs. I wish there wasn't a need for rescues, but there sure is.

[GUNDOGS]

I have been rescuing for 15 years..i have never taken a dog from an owner, certainly dont want people to have no option and just put the dog to the curb to produce more pups..i accept dogs only from high kill shelters, pounds and the humane society..i have my own 2 dogs plus 2 labs, 1 bloodhound and 1 weim..which is why i chuckle when people imply i have lap dogs or that they just sleep on the couch and go into the backyard a few hours a day..we walk/run our dogs at least 10 miles a week all year long except of course in very bad weather plus training/obedience classes and hunting..anyway, none of the rescues leave here without being altered first no matter what the age..the weim leaves tomorrow for his new home and his repalcement is an EP mix..ezzy i dont think just because someone has a hunting dog and they choose to spay or neuter even at 6 months that they dont have the best interest of the dog in mind, thats just not an accurate statement..60 million dogs were spayed and neutered last year and im sure lots of them were bird dogs with very caring, responsible owners..i think if you own ANY breed and you are not intending on and have no interest in breeding the dog, dont want to spend the money for boarding her, dont have the time or means to ensure she doesnt get bred on accident, arent concerned about pedigrees/lineage and the responsibility for pups but want a good hunting companion that can participate in many events theres nothing wrong with making life easier and preventing alot of issues by spaying.....ruth

[Kiki]

Thanks everyone for your input. It really helped me to come up with a better solution to my dillema and my apologies for sleeping on this thread, just got over the stomache flu. Any hoo, after giving it much consideration I've decided to postpone her surgery to a later date. Maybe when she's over 1.5yrs. In the mean time I will install a vinyl fence and gate that is 5'6" high that will enclose the lenght of the house with the boundry wall which is the same height. I will also install wire fencing below ground just in case either parties decide to dig under.

[phermes1]

I chose 1-2 years as I think 18 months is the minimum age to fix a dog. Some studies have suggested that fixing a dog at too young of an age can affect its development and increase the risk of dysplasia and other joint issues. We've had people that bought puppies from us want to fix their dogs, and all we did was ask them to please wait until the dog was 18-24 months old.

I would personally wait until the dog was 2. Until then, if she goes into season, I wouldn't leave her outside unattended.

We have 2 intact males and 2 intact females in our house and the solution is simple; either the female(s) in season are in crates or the boys are.