To neuter or not to neuter?

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isonychia
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To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by isonychia » Sun May 15, 2011 5:52 pm

I read through some of the other post for spaying and felt like I would get a better answer for neutering in a new post. I was going to get my pup neutered at 6 months and have been procrastinating. Truth be told I really don't want to do it. I had no inclination to field trial my dog at the beginning, and now I really want to try it out, and don't want to end up in a situation where I have a #1 dog that can't be bred (which would only happen IF he was neutered). What are the cons to neutering? How much easier is an intact male to deal with than an intact female?

Where I live, not getting your dog fixed is viewed pretty poorly, but then again so is buying a full breed... oh and also hunting. :roll:

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by shags » Sun May 15, 2011 6:06 pm

I don't see any point in neutering male dogs unless doing so would help an immediate health problem. They aren't promiscuous unless their owners are irresponsible, and they don't have cycle issues to deal with. As far as health concerns, I don't go for it. If castration is such a great idea for preventing prostate issues etc, how come we don't have a bunch of soprano male vets around? :wink:

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 15, 2011 6:58 pm

I wouldn't do it and I sure wouldn't do it because of what others might think if you don't. If you do decide to have it done, don't have it done at this age. You can research past threads that will explain why you shouldn't have it done until the dog is at least a couple of years old. If you are responsible, I see no reason to do it from what you have said. JMO

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by chessiemanic » Sun May 15, 2011 6:59 pm

I'm new to owning sporting breed, and was wondering if I should neuter my CBR as well. I do work at an animal shelter, so I see a lot of unwanted dogs of all breeds and mixes. Many are from backyard and unwanted breeding. Many stray dogs that I pick up are unaltered males looking for a mate, and by your dog getting out of the yard can cause your dog being hit by a car or stolen. There are health and behavior issues with an unaltered dogs, but if you neuter him you need to watch his weight, he may put on some unwanted pounds. Unless you are planing to show, or wanting to breed him, my opinion is to neuter him. I did read a lot of post/articles on this and I have found that it doesn't interfere with the dog's ability to hunt or perform well, but it is best to wait to the dog reaches adulthood. I went ahead and neuter my dog at 10 mos due to him having an aggressive behavior. It did reduce his aggressive behavior, and is still a very good athlete. Over all it is what you want and feel is right for your pet.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by Sharon » Mon May 16, 2011 6:01 am

"Early neutered dogs show delayed closure of bone growth plates and so will tend to be significantly
larger than their un-neutered siblings. They also tend to be lighter of bone structure and have
narrower chests and skulls. This alters body proportions and the lengths, and therefore weights, of
some bones relative to others. In the hind leg this has been correlated with heavier legs below the
stifle and altered angle of the joint leading to greater risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture with all
the attendant stress and surgery needed to correct that involved.
Logic dictates that bone density is affected by sex hormones and certainly I personally have found
a number of neutered bitches whose lameness responds to supplements, similar to those used for
human osteoporosis, for this alone. Which finding raises questions for me to which I can find no
research to answer.
Other studies have shown that early neutered dogs have a higher incidence of hip dysplasia, but
that study did have no standard criteria for diagnosis (reflecting the difficulties in interpretation of
observational studies). This presents an argument for allowing the dog to mature before surgery." quote

http://www.homeopathicvet.co.uk/pdf%20f ... 0links.pdf
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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by nanney1 » Mon May 16, 2011 6:06 am

Recently, we had our Bernese female spayed at 2 3/4 years of age. I realize there can be some hormonal changes/surges/depression, etc... however, what I've experienced is an OCD obsession with her. If she's outside and wants to come in, she bolts inside as if she has never been allowed in. She's almost in a panic. Basically, she acts a little crazy in comparison to how she was. It's now been 5 months and she's still a little kooky. I haven't said anything, but, my 14 year old told me that he thought she had been acting crazy since she's been spayed. Just one observation of one dog. Haven't ever noticed anything like that with the others I've had.

Another thing totally different. Just got our notice to have our male American Bulldog receive his rabies vaccination. Previously, we always opted for the three year vaccination at $35 as opposed to the one year at $15. However, the notice said the three year option was N/A as he was an unaltered dog. My only option was a one year $35 vaccination. :evil: This is obviously a way to levy an unfair tax against responsible dog owners while attempting to control the pet population. The obvious end result is that the irresponsible owners will choose not to get the vaccination and claim they no longer own the dog.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by kninebirddog » Mon May 16, 2011 6:43 am

Sharon wrote:"Early neutered dogs show delayed closure of bone growth plates and so will tend to be significantly
larger than their un-neutered siblings. They also tend to be lighter of bone structure and have
narrower chests and skulls. This alters body proportions and the lengths, and therefore weights, of
some bones relative to others. In the hind leg this has been correlated with heavier legs below the
stifle and altered angle of the joint leading to greater risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture with all
the attendant stress and surgery needed to correct that involved.
Logic dictates that bone density is affected by sex hormones and certainly I personally have found
a number of neutered bitches whose lameness responds to supplements, similar to those used for
human osteoporosis, for this alone. Which finding raises questions for me to which I can find no
research to answer.
Other studies have shown that early neutered dogs have a higher incidence of hip dysplasia, but
that study did have no standard criteria for diagnosis (reflecting the difficulties in interpretation of
observational studies). This presents an argument for allowing the dog to mature before surgery." quote

http://www.homeopathicvet.co.uk/pdf%20f ... 0links.pdf
Ditto
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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by RoostersMom » Mon May 16, 2011 8:02 am

From personal experience, I have 11 dogs. All are spayed or neutered. One was from the shelter and was spayed early. The beagles were all altered at about 6 months old (so young, but not pediatric spay/neuter). The birddogs (with the exception of the shelter one) were all spayed/neutered a bit older. The EP at 8 months (vet said he was glad we spayed her because she had problems in the uterus and he said it would have manifested into pyometra or other life threatening problem later). GSP female at a little less than a year. Vizsla and Chessie males at 2 years old, chessie female at 3 years old.

All of our dogs hunt well. None have gained weight, none have shown reduced desire to hunt. None of the males "mark" or have had trouble with marking in the house. I like the fact that I can take any of our dogs on any day and hunt with other dogs. Doesn't matter sex or whether the other dogs are in heat... my dogs don't go into heat, they don't act crazy around a female in heat and I don't have to worry about pregnancies or fights much (though neutering does not mean you'll never have a male fight again at all).

My insistence on spaying and neutering has to do with equal parts wanting to hunt all season and with all different types of dogs and volunteering a lot of my time with birddog rescue. I don't want to miss the best week of grouse hunting because my female is in heat and I don't want an ill-behaved male that is trying to hump every girl dog just because she's in heat either. As a person who volunteers at the shelter and for a few breed rescues, I see the importance of spaying and neutering. Most John Q. Publics can't handle an intact dog and keep if from breeding. If they could, we wouldn't be killing millions of dogs and puppies in shelters every year. That said, I know I can keep my dogs from breeding, but frankly, I think, at least for the females, it is much healthier to have a spayed female than an intact one. I'm on the fence with males, but if you wait sufficiently enough time to have the bone growth complete - I don't see any benefits to having an intact male. Of course if the dog is an excellent example of the breed and you can't get his genetics anywhere else, then maybe you want to keep him intact. I bet that isn't the case with most dogs.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by isonychia » Mon May 16, 2011 11:38 am

Of course if the dog is an excellent example of the breed and you can't get his genetics anywhere else, then maybe you want to keep him intact. I bet that isn't the case with most dogs.
This is in fact what I have been thinking about. I got a dog from an excellent line. If it were a female, I would definitely do the spay. However I am on the fence with this one. I don't want to run into issues of marking, aggression, or being completely distracted and running away for females in heat. Not sure how big of a problem these things are, as I have no experience with intact males.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 16, 2011 11:46 am

nanney1 wrote:Recently, we had our Bernese female spayed at 2 3/4 years of age. I realize there can be some hormonal changes/surges/depression, etc... however, what I've experienced is an OCD obsession with her. If she's outside and wants to come in, she bolts inside as if she has never been allowed in. She's almost in a panic. Basically, she acts a little crazy in comparison to how she was. It's now been 5 months and she's still a little kooky. I haven't said anything, but, my 14 year old told me that he thought she had been acting crazy since she's been spayed. Just one observation of one dog. Haven't ever noticed anything like that with the others I've had.

Another thing totally different. Just got our notice to have our male American Bulldog receive his rabies vaccination. Previously, we always opted for the three year vaccination at $35 as opposed to the one year at $15. However, the notice said the three year option was N/A as he was an unaltered dog. My only option was a one year $35 vaccination. :evil: This is obviously a way to levy an unfair tax against responsible dog owners while attempting to control the pet population. The obvious end result is that the irresponsible owners will choose not to get the vaccination and claim they no longer own the dog.
Excuse the sidetrack, but it sounds like your Berner may have some post-anesthesia damage.
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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by RoostersMom » Mon May 16, 2011 12:44 pm

isonychia wrote:
Of course if the dog is an excellent example of the breed and you can't get his genetics anywhere else, then maybe you want to keep him intact. I bet that isn't the case with most dogs.
This is in fact what I have been thinking about. I got a dog from an excellent line. If it were a female, I would definitely do the spay. However I am on the fence with this one. I don't want to run into issues of marking, aggression, or being completely distracted and running away for females in heat. Not sure how big of a problem these things are, as I have no experience with intact males.
That is a tough one. Getting rid of testosterone will obviously change the dog a bit. I don't have intact males but often hunt with them - and if handled correctly, you can minimize issues with marking - though I think the "chasing girls" thing is just gonna have to be something you deal with. The question I always ask myself is this: "Can I buy a better dog than I could breed?" The answer to me has always been YES. Maybe a bit more expensive, but I know that if I buy from the same breeder - chances are her line of dogs is just improving and improving - so a new pup in 3-4 years would likely be better than the pup I bought from her that many years ago. Again though, my background with rescue does give me a different perspective than others who are not involved in rescue. Plus with a male, you have to really prove him to be high quality if you want to find another equally good or better bitch to breed him to. If you don't have the "proof" of his excellence then you likely won't get to breed to the good bitches. Breeding to a mediocre bitch won't help you at all.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by PrairieGoat » Sat May 21, 2011 9:00 pm

chessiemanic wrote:I'm new to owning sporting breed, and was wondering if I should neuter my CBR as well. I do work at an animal shelter, so I see a lot of unwanted dogs of all breeds and mixes. Many are from backyard and unwanted breeding. Many stray dogs that I pick up are unaltered males looking for a mate, and by your dog getting out of the yard can cause your dog being hit by a car or stolen. There are health and behavior issues with an unaltered dogs, but if you neuter him you need to watch his weight, he may put on some unwanted pounds. Unless you are planing to show, or wanting to breed him, my opinion is to neuter him. I did read a lot of post/articles on this and I have found that it doesn't interfere with the dog's ability to hunt or perform well, but it is best to wait to the dog reaches adulthood. I went ahead and neuter my dog at 10 mos due to him having an aggressive behavior. It did reduce his aggressive behavior, and is still a very good athlete. Over all it is what you want and feel is right for your pet.
First and formost, you have my utmost respect for working in an animal shelter. It is something I know that I could not do....I'd end up on one of those "Hoarder" shows with 147 dogs or something......at best! :oops:

That being said though, I believe that you are a bit misguided on neutering dogs. Saying that not neutering a dog causes them to get out of the yard and runoff, get run over, or causing unwanted breeding is somewhat akin to saying that guns kill people. The real cause of both is the same; irresponsible and/or stupid people. The sample you are seeing at the shelter are the results of irresponsible/stupid pet owners, you don't see the dogs that those of us that are responsible own.

Also not sure why neutering is necessary to solve aggression problems....maybe I've been lucky all my life, but I've never had an aggressive dog (and all my males have been intact)! I think this is just a matter of getting the pack dynamic right from an early age and ensuring that you are at the top of it and are the one that sets the rules and boundaries of acceptable behavior (without being overly aggressive yourself). Seems to have worked well for my dogs for many more years than I care to think about.....unfortunately didn't seem to work nearly as well on teenage kids!!! :twisted:

PS....one of the quickest ways for a vet to lose me as a client is to bug me multiple times about neutering my dogs....which I've had several do.....especially in the last 10-15 years. Seems to have become the "politically correct" thing to do is brow-beat your clients into "fixing" their dogs.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by PrairieGoat » Sat May 21, 2011 9:18 pm

isonychia wrote:
Of course if the dog is an excellent example of the breed and you can't get his genetics anywhere else, then maybe you want to keep him intact. I bet that isn't the case with most dogs.
This is in fact what I have been thinking about. I got a dog from an excellent line. If it were a female, I would definitely do the spay. However I am on the fence with this one. I don't want to run into issues of marking, aggression, or being completely distracted and running away for females in heat. Not sure how big of a problem these things are, as I have no experience with intact males.
Both of my male dogs are intact (and had others before them).....marking can be an issue, although I've never really had too many problems with it. Marking really seems to me to be a way of establishing dominance, and if there aren't any dominance issues in you pack (whether it be just you and your dog, or dogs) then most of the marking will happen outside and generally not an issue (although they may get the occassional tire, ice chest, or I even had one lift their leg on one of the judges at an AKC hunt test!).

Aggression and running away really shouldn't be an issue....just remember that you are responsible for setting their rules and boundaries and keeping them safe, regardless of whether they are male/female or intact/fixed. The job's the same regardless!!!

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by isonychia » Sun May 22, 2011 8:08 am

I just came across an old friend of mine last night who now works at a spay and neuter clinic. My girlfriend told her to try and talk me into getting my pup fixed... oh brother! Apparently I am irresponsible for not having it done, as if the responsibilities end with a cut of the knife. All of this and no one I know actually has a well trained dog. Its as if socializing and getting your dog fixed is all that matters here, people treat them like humans and believe they think and feel just like humans do. Anyways, just had to vent...

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 8:47 am

Sounds like the dog is first on the list. You may be next. Sorry, but it's your decision and your girlfriend and her friend need to stay out of it. Go get her one of the readily available Lab, shepherd or pit mixes and tell her to leave your dog alone.
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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by shags » Sun May 22, 2011 9:26 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Sounds like the dog is first on the list. You may be next. Sorry, but it's your decision and your girlfriend and her friend need to stay out of it. Go get her one of the readily available Lab, shepherd or pit mixes and tell her to leave your dog alone.
Exactly right!

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by isonychia » Sun May 22, 2011 10:09 am

Go get her one of the readily available Lab, shepherd or pit mixes and tell her to leave your dog alone.
Haha, she actually does have an auzzie mix.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by RoostersMom » Sun May 22, 2011 7:09 pm

Or you can come up here to the Midwest and get any readily available, registered - with papers provided english pointer or GSP that are at the shelters I work with. Just be responsible if you don't neuter - it's a personal decision - but you can't be cavalier about it either - your dog should never be provided the opportunity to have a "whoops" litter. It sounds all cutesy when people say "accidental" or "whoops" litters - but in reality it should be "I was horribly irresponsible and a bad pet owner" litter.

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by PrairieGoat » Sun May 22, 2011 7:15 pm

RoostersMom wrote:Just be responsible if you don't neuter - it's a personal decision - but you can't be cavalier about it either - your dog should never be provided the opportunity to have a "whoops" litter. It sounds all cutesy when people say "accidental" or "whoops" litters - but in reality it should be "I was horribly irresponsible and a bad pet owner" litter.
Well said......two thumbs up (I'd give it three, but I don't live that close to a nuclear plant)!!!

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Re: To neuter or not to neuter?

Post by OUBobcat06 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:37 pm

isonychia wrote: All of this and no one I know actually has a well trained dog...
Isn't that the truth?! It's not like everyone has to train their dog to do a job, but I'm amazed at how un-trained literally every dog I know is. We always at least had ours obedience trained and could keep it from jumping all over the company. Anymore, it seems that every dog I know is absolutely crazy and the owners have 0 control. It's taken me literally years to convince my wife that when I get my bird-dog (July!!!) it will be a well-behaved member of the family, and not some crazy ball of fur and paws! Sorry to hijack your thread, but I feel your pain on this.

Also, saw you're in Asheville... I grew up in Canton till I was about 11. Love that area. Good luck with everything!

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