Snake Vaccine

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reedauction

Snake Vaccine

Post by reedauction » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:42 pm

I have heard that there is a vaccine out this year for rattle snake bites. I was told that you give them two shots a month a part and a booster shot before snake season...Is anyone aware of this or have any leads on some info

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Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:48 am


QCBirddogs

Post by QCBirddogs » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:34 am

Reed,

We just returned from the Veterinary Convention. We had a chance to speak with the Doctor that developed the Vaccine. She seemed rather confident in the use of the product. Like all vaccines a booster shot is required after the initial, then once annually. You are correct by saying it should be done just prior to snake season.

We were impressed with the findings on the vacc. There are no adverse side effects. No deaths due to anaphylactic shock, just a few cases of local reactions to Vaccination site, which is to be expected with any vacc.

After a bite, anti-venom is not required but if given does not hurt the dog. In my professional opinion, and Gayla's MEdical opinion using the Vacc is not going to hurt the dog. If it does help in the aid of tissue break down then you are one step ahead of the game.

In Vet school Gayla was taught to treat snake bites with other things than ANti-Venom. Treating the bite area for swelling and infection, etc. Few dogs die from Snake bites, but it is very painful. Making sure the dog could maintain breating or air flow is priority. IT all depends on the local of the bite.

Another factor in snake bites.......... MAny are dry bites, meaning no venom was injected, this you dont find out till later on in the infection. THe vacc. will take some of the guess work out of the course of therapy to be followed.

Secondly, Anti-Venom is very costly, does not have a long shelf life and many Vets dont stock it. This is why other courses of action are usually attempted. The cost of the Vaccine is rather minimal, the office visit will be more expensive!

If aNti- VEnom is used you would have to know the exact species of snake that bite you or the dog. IT is better off to kill the snake and bring it along to the Vets office for identification.

THis Vacc. covers many species of Snakes. All of them that reside in our area of OK.

THe most important thing to remember is the Vacc is a preventative not a wonder shot. If your dog is struck by a snake you still need to have it seen by a Veterinarian. Let it be known to your practitioner that your dog has received the Vacc.

Bottom line..........I will be using the Vaccine on all my dogs in the kennel here. THe safety, peace of mind, cost benifits out weigh the risk factors and treatment!

AN OUNCE OF PREVENTION IS WORTH A POUND OF CURE!

Phil & Doc G

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snake shots

Post by tfbirddog2 » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:42 pm

To let every one know my dogs have had their first round and on the 14th will have the second round of shots.My one female may not have to have the second round since she was bite the vet was checking for me.Do all you can since I still have 3 weeks of season left and it is warming up already.just preventing hopefully.Go for it it is cheap had won't hurt anything.

sudiegirl

Post by sudiegirl » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:13 am

cool. is this something that all vets are going to start carrying or something that will have to be ordered specifically for your dog?

QCBirddogs

Post by QCBirddogs » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:22 am

Sudie,

Just ask your Vet about it.......If memory serves the company sells direct to Veterinarians. If they are nnot willing to get it for you let me know.

Phil
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sudiegirl

Post by sudiegirl » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:07 am

thanks phil
will do.

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Actually

Post by tfbirddog2 » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:01 pm

sudie,actaully RedRocks vaccine just got USDA ceritified in december it was just sold in California till then.My vet had to have good reason or enough dogs to give it to so it would buy it but there was 47 dogs alone that are being used for the lodge I work for.We got the shota for $7 a dog per rounds of shots.For me with three $42 is pretty cheap for prevention, and they are good till next year.just ask the vets.

dhondtm

Post by dhondtm » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:48 pm

sudiegirl wrote:cool. is this something that all vets are going to start carrying or something that will have to be ordered specifically for your dog?
Not all vets are going to carry it, because they only sell them in quantity and they have to be refridgerated. I never did get an answer as to the shelf life. So to answer your question, not all vets will carry it unless they get enough interest.

I am still looking for one close by, now is the time to get this done so you can get your yearly shot before snake season.

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Post by kninebirddog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:23 am

I still have to say ...that AVOIDANCE is the best thing and that the vaccine is a good back up for the accidental run over....

It states all over that the vaccine only slows the process and isn't a gaurantee....

So anyone in or going to area where there are snakes should have the dogs Snake AVOIDANCED trained and having the vaccine back up is just added insurance
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
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Post by QCBirddogs » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:58 am

Knine,

I agree avoidence training is the best preventative here. THere are plenty of dogs that cannot take this type of training though.

Of course there are disclaimers written all over the vaccine, same is true with any med or preventative. There are no gaurentees in anything you do in life, including snake avoidence training.

We just ordered it for our kennel and clinic.......

The vaccine comes in 25 dose cases....Very easy for a small clinic to afford.

The shelf life on the vaccines shipped today have an experation date of January of '07.....Which is standard for most vaccines! Yes it is true that it has to be refrigerated, like all vaccines. I could see some clinics that are in urban areas not ordering it though.

With a cost between 8 to 12 dollars per dose to Joe Public it is affordable.

If your Veterinarian has a few hunting or field trial dog clients they will go through a small case easily.

Phil
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Post by kninebirddog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:42 am

I have never seen a dog that didn't handle Snake Avoidance training done right...They related to the snake which has to be done as natual as possible with a Live Milked and defanged rattlesnake

We do this all the time and have for years with many different breeds of dogs not just hunting and birddogs

I have seen people try to do different methods ...and your right these methods I have seen screw up dogs because they wya over do it by shocking for this and that I can atest the method we use is very effective and the dog relates entirely to the snake.... I was just at an expo which first off is a terrible place to even try a snake aviodance clinic and I felt sorry for the dog as the Rep for Innotek (to attempt a snake avoidance at an expo who did this farse of a demo have that dog afraid of bales of hay.....I am still apalled by the fact that they would even consider doing that like they did It was in extremely poor taste for the dog

I would take snake avoidance over the VAccine ANYDAY ...as I neck full of venom from a curious dog or PUP will suffocate to death....I would Much rather take my chances from my dogs not even being entertained by going up and looking at a snake praying a vaccine will keep them safe until I can get them to a vet for further treatment especially if i am out in the boondocks hours away from the closet vet that may not be able to do anything
No the accidental run over can't be avoided but this is where I can see the vaccine being useful....But again I would MUCH rather have my dog RUN the other way.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

QCBirddogs

Post by QCBirddogs » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:21 pm

Knine,

Like I said, I do agree with you......I have snake trained plenty of dogs in the past. I wouldn't take one in less than a year and a half old for it though, depending on breed.

There are plenty of dogs ruined with this form of training, likewise with FF'ing. I think there are some aspects of dog training that should be left to someone that has done it a few times!

I would rather gamble on a vaccine with a younger dog prior to training and with an older dog that has been through it. No training is 100%

Rarely do dogs die from snake bites. But I still would rather have a little peae of mind IMHO.

Innotek, and a Rep from Innotek at a seminar........That says it all in a mouthful right there!

Phil
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Post by kninebirddog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:54 pm

Well this is where we will have to agree to disagree

I do my dogs at 4-6 months always have and always will..we handle the situation a bit different then adult dogs but I do not want them sticking their nose in to a rattler being curious and getting bit in the face or nose or neck as we have mohave's which this is BAD news and since the vaccine is NO gaurantee it only slows the process this to me is not worth that kind of chance

I like my dogs WAY to much for that.

and we do on an average of 50+ dogs/pups a year and Bob has done this for well more then 20 years

and I can say i have been very thankful when I have come across a snake when in the desert
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

goddog

Post by goddog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:40 pm

""Rarely do dogs die from snake bites""

Where did you get this idea ??

If a dog is bitten, you pray the bite would be on the face, other wise a rattler bite will kill the dog every time.

Steve

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Post by kninebirddog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:14 pm

Sadly i know of dogs every year that do DIE from snake bites...Had a guy last year that spent over $4000 when his 10 month old GSP took a bite to the neck from a mohave...3 weeks later Ace died from liver damage and the infection which they never could get under control and Dave the owner said he wished he would have listened to us as he was waiting till his dog was old enough to snake train which he was told by another trainer...I asked Dave when he said that to us in the first place .."IS your dog to young to get Bit ?"

Sad part is Ace went to check out the buzzing thing and got it under the eye and then in the neck.....and Dave watched the whole thing happen right before his eyes.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

QCBirddogs

Post by QCBirddogs » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:24 pm

Well God Dog.......I will ask you the same question.....from where does your information derive?

You couldnt be more wrong here..............I would like to see your documentation!

We have reviewed case studies on this vaccine.

Only roughly 5% of bites are fatal when venom is injected. Around 25% of bites are "dry" where no venom is injected at all. So the percentage of fatalities from snake bite are relatively low.

When a dog is bitten on the face, the complication from airway restriction is usually the most important concern when treating a stricken dog....not the venom itself. Dogs can just as easily die of suffocation as they can from envenomation.

The purpose of the vaccine is not to prevent death only, the vaccine is to prevent tissue damage and illness associated with a snake bite as well as reducing recovery time.

I know it sounds like I am representing this company or trying to sell the product, on the contrary we don't have a small animal practice. What I am doing is offering a professional opinion with cold hard facts from case studies.

Doc G

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snake training

Post by ward myers » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:25 pm

i had a male gsp that went threw several snake avoidance clinics every year
and he would get snake bit several times a year anyways he would jump in & kill snakes & eat them
so the training isnt 100 per cent
another male gsp went threw 1 clinic & that point on would take off running with tail in between legs & barking from any snake after that

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Post by Chief_dog » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:39 pm

If a dog is bitten, you pray the bite would be on the face, other wise a rattler bite will kill the dog every time.
Hogwash. I've had two bitten in the past four years in southwest Kansas and both survived. One in the front shoulder and one in the back leg. Both swelled up pretty good but were fine within a few days after a diuretic shot and antibiotics to prevent infection.

The one bit in the shoulder was not snake broke, as he was a pup. Like Phil, I don't want to put that kind of pressure on a young dog. His older bracemate that was snake broke wouldn't get near the rattler.

The one bitten in the back leg was a run through, and was snake broke. She didn't know the snake was there. Just because a dog is snake broke doesn't mean it is not going to get bit. I snake break my dogs, but am going to give them the vaccine just for insurance this spring.

dhondtm

Post by dhondtm » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:09 pm

Rattlers don't even release their venom most of the time it depends how threatened they are. A lot of the strikes are dry bites. Avoidance is great but just like the vaccine it is not a guarantee either. I plan to do both the vaccine and snake break every year.

goddog

Post by goddog » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:06 am

Q,
As for paper work, I have none to show you, just my personal experience and a few body counts.
Firstr time was a lab when I was a 16, we lived on the Luke AFB at the time, she was bit in her front leg, die in dads arms while I went to get help. That same year we had a pet goat that was also bit but on the neck, she lived and I remember her neck swelled up like a balloon stuck out on one side and turned dark black after about a week, then hair and skin came off like blobs of tar, when she recovered, it was just skin and the profile of the bones on that one side but the hair never did come back before her death. When I was in college I kept a English Cocker, he was struck multiple times on the inner thigh, while I was trying to de-cap the snakes, he swelled up like a basketball, eyes rolled back, die in my van.
Most recently in 1998, we had a young derby that was bit in the face, just above her nose, she swelled up pretty bad too, the vet treated her but the anti-venom had to be overnighted in, so we decided to bring her home for the night. I can tell she was in a lot of pain that night, but the swelling went down about 60% the next morning, the recovery took about 4 weeks but never was 100%, her eye is always watery after that and held her head to the side as she was shy, we end up giving her to our mailman as a pet.
A good friend that also visits the forum lost a 3-year-old pointer last May, I’ll let him tell you the whole story when he jump on. Basically, the dog went out of sight on their way back to the trailer, after getting some water, he got a fresh horse back out to look for him, dog was found dead on top of a bank, all took place in less than 15 min from when dog was last seen, his dog was struck on the chest.

Hogwash,
Consider your self lucky that both your dog suvived, but I can't imagine there is no tissue lost to either one.............

Steve

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Post by Chief_dog » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:23 am

Sorry to hear of your bad experiences. You have to be about the most unlucky guy I’ve ever heard of. If anything, this shows the importance of having a dog that has been snake proofed AND vaccinated.

Anyway, on snake bite mortality.....

Here’s a quote from a vet’s webpage in California who has treated many rattlesnake bites over the years and had only two dogs that did not survive.
Placerville Veterinary Clinic was once the only small animal practice between Sacramento and Tahoe. We saw a lot of rattlesnake bites, sometimes several over a long holiday weekend. Most dogs did not receive antivenin. In all those years, we had only two deaths associated with rattlesnake bites. One was a little old dachshund. She had been bitten on her chest and nobody realized this until it was too late. The other was a big German Shepherd who had been bitten previously and treated with antivenin. She received a second dose of antivenin and died approximately thirty seconds later.
http://www.placervillevet.com/rattlesna ... ivenin.htm

Here’s a link to a study done by the Veterinary Teaching Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado of 100 prairie rattlesnake bite cases from 1989 to 1998. One dog died.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

snip

Post by snip » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:31 am

I have had only 1 Rattlesnake bit, and I really don`t think she would have made it without the antivenom. It was on her front leg and within an hour and 1/2 she was going in shock. I had her at the vet on IV`s and they sent me to the hospitol for antivenom. I can`t imagine being 2-3 hours out hunting and having that happen. I have had a half a dozen Copperhead bites that I just treat myself now. I keep antibiotics and Lasix here, seems to do the trick. I have heard of dogs dieing when getting bitten while out hunting and Rick knows of dogs dieing too. Thats why he says they always waited in Az until the weather cooled before going hunting.

QCBirddogs

Post by QCBirddogs » Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:46 am

Fortunately, I have never had a dog bitten. We have a small amount of snakes in our area of OK and I have not been here long, but Copperheads and Rattlers are here.

All I can say is my dogs mean to much to me not to take a step in the right direction, and my clients dogs will have the option on the vaccine!

No training is 100%, with your luck Steve, I can't see why you wouldn't invest 20.00 per dog. If the vaccine works.......then you and the dog are much better off.....if not.....the dog will not be any worse for the wear.

The vaccines will be here by noon and the dogs will have the first round by evening. I for one, will be a little more at ease.

Phil
REO

sudiegirl

Post by sudiegirl » Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:25 am

dhondtm wrote:Rattlers don't even release their venom most of the time it depends how threatened they are. A lot of the strikes are dry bites. Avoidance is great but just like the vaccine it is not a guarantee either. I plan to do both the vaccine and snake break every year.
i understand obviously vaccinating each year, but is snake breaking something that has to be repeated each year, or is it more like a "refresher course?"

also..... would the size of the dog and how worn out they were (how fast their heart was pumping at the time) make a difference in how the dog would react to a snake bite? i was thinking of brenda's post where to dog was stopping to get water (was she pretty worn out if she was stopping to get water?? ) it just seems like circumstances along with the makeup of the individual dog should play a part in how a dog reacts to a snakebite.

either way.... i am definitely vaccinating my dogs! it seems foolish not to!!

Tedfoxx

Post by Tedfoxx » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:49 am

n south TX snake bites are year round since we started here in 1999 we lost 7 to snakes, we have some that live, we do what we can no vet here not that we have that kind of money. Now I think those that are alive are only bit on the face, we lost some to gator in FL before move here no vaccin for them thats forsure.

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Post by kninebirddog » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:21 pm

I will be happy when it gets here

I will still do the Snake avoidance this will not change ....

But as stated the vaccine will be that extra added insurance
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.

goddog

Post by goddog » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:27 pm

Foxx,

Were your dogs bit by Western Diamondback? Just wondering.

SC
Last edited by goddog on Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by llewgor » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:52 pm

perhaps some of you who know how do the snake avoidiance can explain it. tfbirddog you guys need to learn this for your club.
this vaccine is like a flu shot, you can still get the flu only it maynot be as bad. does that make sense ? so perhap the snake bite might not swell up enough to stop the dog from breathing? you still are advised to take your dog to a vet .
both my dogs are getting they're yearly this may. we have not run into any rattlers. i did this because you never know.
Billy
"Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change"

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=147

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=152

dhondtm

Post by dhondtm » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:37 pm

goddog wrote:we lived on the Luke AFB at the time
Sorry to hear your run of bad luck Steve. I can attest Estrella Ranch area which is close to Luke AFB I believe has been known to have a LOT of rattle snakes. I won't golf their ever again thats for sure.

As far as snake breaking your dog every year, yeah it is like a refresher course. I think it is a good idea to remind them and also to try different trainers. Different trainers have different techniques and train in different environments.

Tedfoxx

Post by Tedfoxx » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:38 pm

Goddog,
Thats about all we got big mothers to. I get 4 are over 7 feet this year. them young ones are just as bad, some don't even rattel
before strike, they are no fun. i know how you say about dogs sweele up like a ball.

Ted

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Snake bite

Post by tfbirddog2 » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:26 pm

llegor,our lodge has all had shots for our dogs now.I personally have done my own snake charming school.When my dog got bit,all three of them were going into see what I had shot I cranked their collars and shocked them on high that is also when my one was bit.about one month later another snake was shot and brought in to be mounted.i grab it put it out in our lot and brought my girls over to it with their collars on after a hunt.When I brought them with in 15 feet of down wind they all three ran balling away as fast as they could.they want nothing to do with snakes now I'll try again soon in a few weekswhen its warmer and see if they are still charmed.As for everyone elsesorry for your luck or that your luck still stands to never come across one.I just sleep better and hunt easier with my girls having a chance after a bite now.

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