Food for thought...

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jcbuttry8
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Food for thought...

Post by jcbuttry8 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:42 pm

So, I have been running Kona on Origen dog food. it has a much higher protein content for her. She is running about an hour 3 to 4 times a week. A little less now that we are trialing every weekend. It is very expensive. I do not mind spending the money for her because she works and needs a good food to keep her healthy, but I was wandering what the general thought is from the trialing and gundog world. We all run hard and I see pics on here of dogs that work hard but still look good and healthy.

I have heard that NATIVE is good but cannot find a dealer around me. So, Please give me your thoughts on what is the best brand to run a trialer on. Kona will eat the Origen but doesn't seem to happy about it. So, I am wondering if I am doing it right or do i need to change up while we are still in the change up state.

Thanks for your advice,

Joe

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by brad27 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:45 pm

Does your dog do well on a feed that is available in your area and you can afford it? That's the one I'd use.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:20 pm

Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by mcbosco » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:39 am

Given you live in Bucks County, it should not be hard to find Annamaet Ultra 32/20 for about the same price as Pro Plan, which is amazing given the quality of Annamaet.

I believe Annamaet was the first food of its kind and it is still 1 of the 3 best on the market.

It runs about $1.25 lb.

http://www.annamaet.com/

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by birddogger » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:52 am

Joe, I don't believe there is a "best brand". Higher priced feed does not always equal better feed. I agree with slistoe that Orijen and some others are just feel good marketing ploys. There are a lot of threads on this topic if you want to research.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by MikeB » Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Joe,
The first question is what foods are available to you in your area? Retail Pet Stores, Tractor Supply, Feed stores, etc. Then you have to find a brand and formula that works. Takes some time to find another food that works well. Have you thought about Canidae Grain Free regular or grain free? It should be available most everywhere. What about Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete?

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by jcbuttry8 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:37 pm

I will check it out. I think we are done with origen. I will check out a few others and see what she likes. She is very thin. She eats like a pig some days and won't touch the food others. She is very muscular and looks healthy but just want to find some thing she will eat consistantly. She started on IAMS but just doesn't seem to be doing the trick. She likes the taste and will eat it but she just seems to drag a little. With origen she seemed to have a little more steam and looks better but she just looks at me when I feed her like again?? So, we will keep playing.

Joe

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by bossman » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:12 pm

As Charlie said, there really isn't a "best " brand. Just need to find one that works for you. Having said that, I am vey happy with Eagle Pack Power. While I don't trial my dog's, they are hunted regularly. If it were available in Texas, I would certainly give Annamaet Ultra a shot (great reputation). I have noticed many successful pro trailers feed Enhance Pro Athelete. Just came back from 4 days in Kansas and that was what our guide was also feeding his string. Just three I would consider. We are fortunate. Animal nutrition has come a long way, many good choices out there.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by jmsgunner » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:37 am

mcbosco wrote:Given you live in Bucks County, it should not be hard to find Annamaet Ultra 32/20 for about the same price as Pro Plan, which is amazing given the quality of Annamaet.

I believe Annamaet was the first food of its kind and it is still 1 of the 3 best on the market.

It runs about $1.25 lb.

http://www.annamaet.com/

Additionally - you'll have to go to a specialty pet store for this. I think their website lists what places sell it.

Call the company for more information everyone I've met - including the owner - has been incredibly informative and more than happy to answer questions.

I do love feeding this food but currently have G on a different grain-free higher protein.
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Re: Food for thought...

Post by mcbosco » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:46 am

jmsgunner wrote:
mcbosco wrote:Given you live in Bucks County, it should not be hard to find Annamaet Ultra 32/20 for about the same price as Pro Plan, which is amazing given the quality of Annamaet.

I believe Annamaet was the first food of its kind and it is still 1 of the 3 best on the market.

It runs about $1.25 lb.

http://www.annamaet.com/

Additionally - you'll have to go to a specialty pet store for this. I think their website lists what places sell it.

Call the company for more information everyone I've met - including the owner - has been incredibly informative and more than happy to answer questions.

I do love feeding this food but currently have G on a different grain-free higher protein.
In PA or NJ the food is fairly easy to buy, you just have to ask if its not in the store. Bucks County should be a lay up. I bet you can get the food at the headquarters in Sellersvile, PA if you are close.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 am

slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:49 pm

grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
You have just singled out two of the very best ingredients in a dog food and it has been proven over and over in feed test after feed test. Rice is a good carb source but lacks the fat and protein that corn provides. Chicken by-products probably has more food value for a dog than any other one ingredient. Again proven in the lab and feed test.

Go back and read the many threads on here over the past 7 or 8 yers and you will get an education of every aspect of dog feeding, some of it true and a lot of it old wives tales.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:23 pm

grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
If you want to feed an honest to goodness hard working gun dog and keep them in top shape throughout the season feed corn and chicken by-product. It works. If you want to pander to the mamby-pamby, vegan/animal rightest, latte crowd buy Orijen - or any of the derivatives. And if you are actually going to work that dog, instead of being a pretend gun dog, then you better find something extra to supplement them with because the food you are feeding most likely will not cut it.

I have no studies to back that up - just years of experience with dozens of dogs on the ground day in and day out and a curiosity to fill - hence the test feeding of many different types of feed to see what worked and what didn't.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:34 pm

slistoe wrote:
grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
If you want to feed an honest to goodness hard working gun dog and keep them in top shape throughout the season feed corn and chicken by-product. It works. If you want to pander to the mamby-pamby, vegan/animal rightest, latte crowd buy Orijen - or any of the derivatives. And if you are actually going to work that dog, instead of being a pretend gun dog, then you better find something extra to supplement them with because the food you are feeding most likely will not cut it.

I have no studies to back that up - just years of experience with dozens of dogs on the ground day in and day out and a curiosity to fill - hence the test feeding of many different types of feed to see what worked and what didn't.
Corn and by-products are simply the cheapest ingredients to use, they are in no way "good" ingredients. Amazing that bird dog development and performance was fine long before the big corporations started using cheap ingredients. Corn is an ingredient to avoid, as is wheat and most by-products. Origen is an excellent food along with Native, Canidae, etc...the list is long. Here is a great website for complete break downs of popular foods. The "mamby pamby" "vegan/animal rightest" comments are entertaining....especially considering the fact that good foods use far more animal products than the corn based garbage.....

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/dry/

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:01 pm

I am a firm believer you should feed whatever you want. But I also am a believer that our forum should give new people the facts as proven and not what someone on the net says. I have been there and seen what works and what didn't before we started formulating feed for hard working dogs so I really don't need to read someone elses opinion. I have seen the proof as well as having fed my own dogs plusthose we boarded.

Corn was a staple of dog food diets along with every kind of by-product produced on a livestock farm long before any commercial dog food was ever produced. And it still works even better now that we can supplement them with the vitamins and minerals the dogs need to stay happy and healthy while working.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by birddogger » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:19 pm

grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
I don't feed anything that doesn't have corn, by-products and/or meat meal.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:17 pm

birddogger wrote:
grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
I don't feed anything that doesn't have corn, by-products and/or meat meal.

Charlie
Meat meal is a good source of protein as it is not water inclusive, therefore it does not lose 80% of it's weight upon processing like whole meat does. You don't need rice to provide fat and protein, that's what meat is for. Dogs and grains did not get together as far as feed until recently. Try feeding your dog corn some time....see if he'll eat it.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by mcbosco » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:27 pm

grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote:Orijen is a feel good marketing food IMO. When I tried the dogs on it I could not keep them in condition. You need something with more corn and chicken by products. Eagle Power Pack, Eukanuba Original, Pro Plan Performance, Nutram Active Dog have all worked well for me on dogs that needed to lay it all out and keep Show Condition coats while doing it. Kasco, Prism kept the dogs working hard but the coats seemed to suffer a little. Iams, Pedigree, Nutro, Orijen, Purina Dog Chow, Purina One, Kirkland simply did not get the job done when fed to my dogs.
Of course many of these feeds may have had formula changes since I fed them and I have most certainly been beat in the show ring and on the trail ground by dogs being fed Pedigree.
Corn nor chicken by-products are quality ingredients for dog food. They just aren't. Good carb sources would be whole grain rice (white or brown) and even potatoes.
It all depends on the grade (is it whole grain?) of corn, the amount of corn used and the grade of the by-products. The better grades of by-products use only organs, the intestinal tract, skin and whatever meat is in the bones. If the by-product meal is of the low ash grade, the best grade, then it is probably better than most of the chicken meals used, seriously.

There are studies that show that rice is clearly more digestible than corn, but on a technical level. Neither you or your dog would know. There is not one study that shows corn more allergenic than rice, oats, millet or barley. Not one.

I would have no problem using a food with best by-product meal available, it is cheaper and more palatable than chicken meal, also better balanced on it own.

Ironically, the same people that tell you that by-products are bad are usually raw feeders and that is all they feed!!!!! Duh.

The only way anyone here could really know the quality of the protein meal in their food is to ask about the ash content. Good quality equals low ash and bad quality equals high ash. Plain and simple. It might not matter much for a certain dog but its a technical point I won't ignore.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:44 pm

grouseguy wrote:Meat meal is a good source of protein as it is not water inclusive, therefore it does not lose 80% of it's weight upon processing like whole meat does. You don't need rice to provide fat and protein, that's what meat is for. Dogs and grains did not get together as far as feed until recently. Try feeding your dog corn some time....see if he'll eat it.
They not only will eat it they are continuely going into the picked corn field behind our house and carry the ears into the yard and then lay and eat them. Our farm dogs used to eat ear corn in the crib everyday. Like Charlie said, Since I helped run the feed test I do not feed anything to the dogs that does not include corn. They need it if they are going to maintain their weight when working hard. And as far as by-products go there isn't a dog food on the market that doesn't have by-product in them and probably no manufactured human food either. You need to go to a plant and see what by-products really are, it would open your eyes up.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
grouseguy wrote:Meat meal is a good source of protein as it is not water inclusive, therefore it does not lose 80% of it's weight upon processing like whole meat does. You don't need rice to provide fat and protein, that's what meat is for. Dogs and grains did not get together as far as feed until recently. Try feeding your dog corn some time....see if he'll eat it.
They not only will eat it they are continuely going into the picked corn field behind our house and carry the ears into the yard and then lay and eat them. Our farm dogs used to eat ear corn in the crib everyday. Like Charlie said, Since I helped run the feed test I do not feed anything to the dogs that does not include corn. They need it if they are going to maintain their weight when working hard. And as far as by-products go there isn't a dog food on the market that doesn't have by-product in them and probably no manufactured human food either. You need to go to a plant and see what by-products really are, it would open your eyes up.

Ezzy

there are plenty of foods without by-products. I can name several if you would like. Do you have/had a financial stake in a company that passes corn as a quality dog food ingredient?
Last edited by grouseguy on Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:59 pm

What kind of silliness are you trying to pass off here grouseguy.

Let me 'splain it to you plainly.

Properly Processed High Quality Corn Is One Of The Best Things For Hard Working Dogs.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:11 pm

slistoe wrote:What kind of silliness are you trying to pass off here grouseguy.

Let me 'splain it to you plainly.

Properly Processed High Quality Corn Is One Of The Best Things For Hard Working Dogs.

Go ahead and explain it, I'm all ears.... Some independent sources would be nice (from someone that doesn't have financial stake in promoting corn based dog foods).

A quick google search of "corn in dog food?" offers all sorts of article and information.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:37 pm

grouseguy wrote:Origen is an excellent food
Guess you weren't reading very well when I said that it was impossible to keep the dogs working hard when feeding Orijen. They simply couldn't do it. Put them back on Euk Original and the energy came back along with the coat quality.

I have fed far too many working dogs with far too many types of feed over a period of not quite enough years yet ( I hope) to buy what you are selling.

And for the record, I have no vested interest in any dog food company, only in performance dogs. So I will repeat it again - if you truly work your dogs, day in and day out, get a feed that is high in corn and chicken by product to keep them in the best condition possible. This is based on putting food through dogs, miles on the ground and circles in the show ring.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:39 pm

grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote: Properly Processed High Quality Corn Is One Of The Best Things For Hard Working Dogs.

Go ahead and explain it, I'm all ears....
I highlighted it for you. 'parently you looked over it.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:54 pm

slistoe wrote:
grouseguy wrote:
slistoe wrote: Properly Processed High Quality Corn Is One Of The Best Things For Hard Working Dogs.

Go ahead and explain it, I'm all ears....
I highlighted it for you. 'parently you looked over it.
your personal experience is in no way proof. I have worked hard working field dogs on a corn free diet for about 7 years...as have many others. An independent source would mean someone other than you or a company selling corn based foods. I mean an actual "source" for information other than your opinion. It is a ridiculous statement about Origen that you posted....

I'm not "selling" anything...just stating that corn and by-products are inexpensive, low quality ingredients that have just become prominent in the last 50 or so years.....and there are countless INDEPENDENT sources to back that claim up.

Here is a non-bias report on corn in dog foods. Can you counter some of the information/claims made with references?

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... food-corn/

Here's a specific break down of the Eukanuba food that Ezzy333 recommends:

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... nutrition/


BTW, how can you blame animal rights activists for promoting a food that contains a huge amount of animal products? That makes absolutely no sense. If anything the animal rights people would recommend a corn based diet as you are.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:21 pm

So you say that my personal experiences with feeding working dogs is meaningless and then want me to rebut the personal opinion (sans experience) of a Dentist who is cashing in on the internet phenomenon?

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:26 pm

slistoe wrote:So you say that my personal experiences with feeding working dogs is meaningless and then want me to rebut the personal opinion (sans experience) of a Dentist who is cashing in on the internet phenomenon?

which part of the link expresses a dentists personal opinion? I didn't say your opinion was meaningless, just saying that it's simply your opinion.....which everyone is entitled to. When you make widespread claims of high quality foods being for tree huggers, you better expect some fact checking. Some people feed their dogs exclusively raw meat and claim it's the best (I don't). The "dentist" uses references properly noted, it's not an opinion column that I posted. Your personal views may be right in your mind, I'm just wondering if you have anything other than your opinion/experiences to back it up. Why would an animal rights activist promote a food that uses primarily animal products as you mentioned before in your earlier post? That claim baffles me more than your claim of corn and by-products being vital to working dogs.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:57 pm

OK, let's go back to that statement which was a generalized opinion on the "feel good" marketing ploys that predominate the dog food industry at this time.

"If you want to pander to the mamby-pamby, vegan/animal rightest, latte crowd buy Orijen - or any of the derivatives. "


Obviously Orijen is not aimed at the vegan crowd, but most definitely the mamby-pamby ones.

Here is one of the "derivitaves" of this marketing strategy http://naturesrecipe.com/recipe_detail.aspx?id=424.

This whole marketing scheme has absolutely nothing to with optimizing nutrition for dogs (unlike the considerable research conducted by companies such as Purina and Iams) and everything to do with pandering to the human emotion to maximize profits.

What do you think of this quote? "There is no scientifically known reason why dogs cannot live full, healthy lives on an exclusively vegetarian diet or vegan diet. Some suggest more widespread benefits from a vegetarian diet: " Dogs would benefit in health and temperament worldwide... Such a diet would also greatly reduce the risks of cancer, strokes, heart attacks, and other common diseases and disorders. "--Michael W. Fox, D.V.M. "

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:50 pm

grouseguy, would you care to elaborate on the conditioning/working program your dogs are on? At the height of the training when I was competing my dogs they would be in a pulling harness for an hour on the quad at a varying speed program in 80 degree weather. On free run days they did 10 miles in 1/2 hour dragging 6 to 10 pounds of chain. They worked 3 days on, one off, 2 on, one off. When hunting they would give a total of 4 or 6 hours of balls to the wall a day in two hour rotations - for as much as 5 days straight. At any point in time I needed to be able to wash those dogs up and have the coat shine to compete in the show ring. Doubt all you want, but Orijen simply could not power my dogs. So, what Opinion does the dentist have about Orijen? "Orijen Adult Dog Food earns the Advisor’s top rating of five stars. Enthusiastically recommended." What about the foods that performed satisfactorily in keeping my dogs going, day in and day out in prime condition. Well, unfortunately he has not published an opinion on most of those feeds, but gives his "indicative" product from Pro Plan and Eukanuba a not recommended rating, but the Eagle Pack gets a 4 star with similar ingredient list to them and a whopping 51% carbohydrate. Hmm.....balanced and unbiased? The competitors website to his http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com gives a hearty NO to all 4 products that got the job done.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by Winchey » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:34 am

I may have the wrong thing but my vet told me that dogs need "I think Lucine" and that there is nothing out there that provides that better than corn.

Another thing to point out is the ingredients listed most to least, just because meat is the first ingredient doesn't mean that product has more meat than one with something else at the top, this isn't about Chicken meal vs. Chicken, I think most on here are aware of the difference. Anyways here is my example.

Bag 1 Ingredient List
Corn
Chicken
Peas
Carrotts
Rice

Bag 2 Ingredient List
Chicken
Corn
Peas
Carrotts
Rice

We don't know the percentages so for all we know they could be like this

Ex, 1
Corn 40%
Chicken 35%
Peas 10%
Carrotts 10%
Rice 5%

Ex, 2
Chicken 30%
Corn 25%
Peas 20%
Carrotts 20%
Rice 5%

Which one has more meat?
Just feed what you trust and what your dogs do well on, it's really all you can do.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:08 am

No need to get into a pissing contest/ There's more than one way to feed working dogs and that doesn't mean you have "pretend gun dogs" or whatever it was that was posted above.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by birddogger » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:27 am

I pay no attention to any of these dog food analysis or comparison sites, in fact I won't even read them anymore. I saw a long time ago that most, if not all, are biased and have an agenda. The real proof is with ingredients that 90+ per cent of dogs do well on and have done well on for years and years.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:44 am

birddogger wrote:I pay no attention to any of these dog food analysis or comparison sites, in fact I won't even read them anymore. I saw a long time ago that most, if not all, are biased and have an agenda. The real proof is with ingredients that 90+ per cent of dogs do well on and have done well on for years and years.

Charlie

Dogs have done well on all kinds of diets for years. The corn thing is from the last 50 or so years. Given that the vast majority of dog foods contain inexpensive ingredients, but the dogs do fine...it's tough to refute your position. Most people eat processed foods as well and do fine.....maybe that's the best type of food for people to eat as well.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by birddogger » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:11 am

grouseguy wrote:
birddogger wrote:I pay no attention to any of these dog food analysis or comparison sites, in fact I won't even read them anymore. I saw a long time ago that most, if not all, are biased and have an agenda. The real proof is with ingredients that 90+ per cent of dogs do well on and have done well on for years and years.

Charlie

Dogs have done well on all kinds of diets for years. The corn thing is from the last 50 or so years. Given that the vast majority of dog foods contain inexpensive ingredients, but the dogs do fine...it's tough to refute your position. Most people eat processed foods as well and do fine.....maybe that's the best type of food for people to eat as well.
This subject has been discussed on here more times than I can count and we could go back and forth indefinately but what's the use. :wink: As long as you are happy with what you use and your dog/dogs do well and you don't mind the price....By all means feed what you like.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by mcbosco » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:37 am

grouseguy wrote:
birddogger wrote:I pay no attention to any of these dog food analysis or comparison sites, in fact I won't even read them anymore. I saw a long time ago that most, if not all, are biased and have an agenda. The real proof is with ingredients that 90+ per cent of dogs do well on and have done well on for years and years.

Charlie

Dogs have done well on all kinds of diets for years. The corn thing is from the last 50 or so years. Given that the vast majority of dog foods contain inexpensive ingredients, but the dogs do fine...it's tough to refute your position. Most people eat processed foods as well and do fine.....maybe that's the best type of food for people to eat as well.
Grouse Guy, Let me ask you a question. I will use Pro Pac Performance as an example:

http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/hi ... rmance.php

What would you say is the percentage of carbohydrates (corn) by calories. And is it better or worse than Orijen?

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:13 am

Propac appears to be a good food based on it's ingredients list. It is a meat based food, and uses chicken meal as it's #1 ingredient. I would say that it is an excellent food along with Origen. I can't find the formula information pertaining to carbohydrate percentages (rice, potato, corn, etc.)
Last edited by grouseguy on Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:16 am

I will give you a clue. You will have no idea of the formula by reading a list of ingredients. Those are there to tell you what ingredients are included in the feed. That is all.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:21 am

ezzy333 wrote:I will give you a clue. You will have no idea of the formula by reading a list of ingredients. Those are there to tell you what ingredients are included in the feed. That is all.

Ezzy


So, the ingredients list by volume isn't a good indicator of the formula quality? There's a head scratcher..... :?

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:42 am

grouseguy wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I will give you a clue. You will have no idea of the formula by reading a list of ingredients. Those are there to tell you what ingredients are included in the feed. That is all.

Ezzy


So, the ingredients list by volume isn't a good indicator of the formula quality? There's a head scratcher..... :?
I could explain it to you but I think it has been covered a hundred times already and everyone is tired of hearing it. Look in the archives and I am sure you can find it. If not let me know.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:54 am

Funny. Reminds me of when I eas a kid and my grandma would turn off the television because it was reruns.

The origin and evolution of the commercial dog food industry is quite fascinating. It was sort of a misbegotton liasion between the British animal welfare and the patent formula crazes of the late 19th century and has, since the 1930s, been a dumping ground for the unwanted detritus of agriculture. Now, that detritus is worth $4.00 a pound.
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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:57 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Funny. Reminds me of when I eas a kid and my grandma would turn off the television because it was reruns.

The origin and evolution of the commercial dog food industry is quite fascinating. It was sort of a misbegotton liasion between the British animal welfare and the patent formula crazes of the late 19th century and has, since the 1930s, been a dumping ground for the unwanted detritus of agriculture. Now, that detritus is worth $4.00 a pound.
Not quite true but an interesting concept.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by slistoe » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:13 am

ezzy333 wrote:
grouseguy wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I will give you a clue. You will have no idea of the formula by reading a list of ingredients. Those are there to tell you what ingredients are included in the feed. That is all.

Ezzy


So, the ingredients list by volume isn't a good indicator of the formula quality? There's a head scratcher..... :?
I could explain it to you but I think it has been covered a hundred times already and everyone is tired of hearing it. Look in the archives and I am sure you can find it. If not let me know.

Ezzy
He doesn't have to look any further than Winchey's post in this thread.
And the list is by weight, not volume.
Last edited by slistoe on Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:16 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Funny. Reminds me of when I eas a kid and my grandma would turn off the television because it was reruns.

The origin and evolution of the commercial dog food industry is quite fascinating. It was sort of a misbegotton liasion between the British animal welfare and the patent formula crazes of the late 19th century and has, since the 1930s, been a dumping ground for the unwanted detritus of agriculture. Now, that detritus is worth $4.00 a pound.
Not quite true but an interesting concept.

Ezzy
Which part and how so? I have several sources that collaborate, although I did oversimplify the topic.
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Re: Food for thought...

Post by big steve46 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:41 am

birddogger wrote:I pay no attention to any of these dog food analysis or comparison sites, in fact I won't even read them anymore. I saw a long time ago that most, if not all, are biased and have an agenda. The real proof is with ingredients that 90+ per cent of dogs do well on and have done well on for years and years.

Charlie

You are one smart guy! After all, you agree with me.

I have a lot of nutritional expertese, but my main expertese on working dogs has come from others who feed many, many dogs and from my own experience with dogs for many years. Depending on classroom training and "dog food analysis" both tend to be biased and inaccurate. As the old saying goes, "proof of the pudding is in the eating." Of course we add observable facts related to working dogs such as coat, stools, and performance. :)
big steve

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:50 am

ezzy333 wrote:
grouseguy wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I will give you a clue. You will have no idea of the formula by reading a list of ingredients. Those are there to tell you what ingredients are included in the feed. That is all.

Ezzy


So, the ingredients list by volume isn't a good indicator of the formula quality? There's a head scratcher..... :?
I could explain it to you but I think it has been covered a hundred times already and everyone is tired of hearing it. Look in the archives and I am sure you can find it. If not let me know.

Ezzy

Dog food ingredient lists are generally in order of % of weight of the formula. Therefore, if corn is listed #1 it is probably the most prevalent ingredient in the food as it is low moisture. If Chicken is #1 it is not (chicken is 80% water), Chicken meal may or may not be depending on the amount of moisture in it. I feed Canidae All Life Stages, the first few ingredients are all meat meals, which means the main source of protein/calories is meat.

Are you saying that some dog food companies list the ingredients in the order they feel like, not in order of weight?

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:51 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Funny. Reminds me of when I eas a kid and my grandma would turn off the television because it was reruns.

The origin and evolution of the commercial dog food industry is quite fascinating. It was sort of a misbegotton liasion between the British animal welfare and the patent formula crazes of the late 19th century and has, since the 1930s, been a dumping ground for the unwanted detritus of agriculture. Now, that detritus is worth $4.00 a pound.
Not quite true but an interesting concept.

Ezzy
Which part and how so? I have several sources that collaborate, although I did oversimplify the topic.

Cajun Casey is right. It's no wonder big corporations often purchase/develop dog food lines and then include all sorts of by-products unsuitable for anything else but dog food in their formulas.

Also, Winchey is incorrect. Dog food companies are required to list the ingredients in order of volume. It's not a deal where they just list ingredients in whichever order they want as to trick the consumer as Winchey pointed out and others agreed with.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:29 pm

grouseguy wrote: Therefore, if corn is listed #1 it is probably the most prevalent ingredient in the food as it is low moisture. If Chicken is #1 it is not (chicken is 80% water), Chicken meal may or may not be depending on the amount of moisture in it.

Are you saying that some dog food companies list the ingredients in the order they feel like, not in order of weight?

You just answered your own question and explained what Ezzy was saying

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:35 pm

Now for a dose of truth. The major feed companies used all of the "cheap" ingredients they could buy for their hog feeds and there was no need to find a use for any ingredient.Since that time we have found that ruminant utilize poorer ingredients better than the hogs. But those that got into the dog food market had to find good quality ingredients for it and to do that they had to pay a premium price to get them. Here in the mid west we have been lucky that most all of the best ingredients are available locally at a reasonable cost though today I question if any are reasonable. But we still have people who have practically no knowledge it seems of nutrition or of feed manufacturing spreading their knowledge throughout the Internet as though it was fact. I so wish each of them could spend a few days in the mills and also with the lab and nutritionist they all have and learn just a little about the research and testing that goes into a feed before it is ever pup on the market and I think they would be amazed and I know a great deal more knowledgeable about our dogs and how and why we use the ingredients in their feed that we do. And though some of you won't believe it they spend millions of dollars to insure they are producing a feed that you and your dog will like and keep buying and not just something that is designed to get rid of the waste products they can find laying around.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:42 pm

ACooper wrote:
grouseguy wrote: Therefore, if corn is listed #1 it is probably the most prevalent ingredient in the food as it is low moisture. If Chicken is #1 it is not (chicken is 80% water), Chicken meal may or may not be depending on the amount of moisture in it.

Are you saying that some dog food companies list the ingredients in the order they feel like, not in order of weight?

You just answered your own question and explained what Ezzy was saying
No, I challlenged the notion that order of ingredients does not indicate volume of said ingredients. It is required they list ingredients in order of volume.

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Re: Food for thought...

Post by grouseguy » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Now for a dose of truth. The major feed companies used all of the "cheap" ingredients they could buy for their hog feeds and there was no need to find a use for any ingredient.Since that time we have found that ruminant utilize poorer ingredients better than the hogs. But those that got into the dog food market had to find good quality ingredients for it and to do that they had to pay a premium price to get them. Here in the mid west we have been lucky that most all of the best ingredients are available locally at a reasonable cost though today I question if any are reasonable. But we still have people who have practically no knowledge it seems of nutrition or of feed manufacturing spreading their knowledge throughout the Internet as though it was fact. I so wish each of them could spend a few days in the mills and also with the lab and nutritionist they all have and learn just a little about the research and testing that goes into a feed before it is ever pup on the market and I think they would be amazed and I know a great deal more knowledgeable about our dogs and how and why we use the ingredients in their feed that we do. And though some of you won't believe it they spend millions of dollars to insure they are producing a feed that you and your dog will like and keep buying and not just something that is designed to get rid of the waste products they can find laying around.

Ezzy


I agree with the end of your statement. That's about it. You are also spreading your opinion as fact. That is evident by the first sentence of your paragraph. A Dog food ought to be meat based.....can we agree on that?

I've been told by Ezzy that ingredient lists do not tell us the order of ingredients in formulations by volume (absolutely untrue), and have also been told that corn and by-products are key ingredients. Pardon me for challenging these opinions being shared as though they were fact.

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