Adding muscle mass and weight

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:48 pm

I've got a GWP that comes for training and I'm looking for some suggestions for getting some weight and muscle mass on the 1 y.o. spayed female? She's been in for a blood panel, came back normal. She's 37# and average height, eats 4 cups of Eukanuba/day on a timed schedule...3x/day, which I thought was a lot! She's kenneled up during the day and again at night, and when they are gone. Been tested for worms, came back clean. She is energetic but doesn't last long and burns out after finding just 3 birds in training. She can play with other dogs for 1/2 day and then rests for the remaining day and 1/2 the next. Her sire is bigger (70#), her dam is average (55#). She has no muscle tone at all. What do you guys suggest to get her up to speed? She can't hardly take the annual hunt to N.D. this fall with the rest of the group...she'll never last.

Post by **Ayres** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:37 am

Three ideas from a novice:

1) "Road" the dog by having her pull some weights or swimming while you encourage her. This should help with the muscle tone.

2) Amount of food doesn't seem to be the problem, but how about type? Canidae has 466 kcal/cup as compared to 300 something for most other dog foods. Perhaps a switch?

3) What did the vet recommend? Any supplements?

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:49 pm

it sort of sounds like she is just REALLY out of shape. when was her surgery? was she bigger and in good condition BEFORE her surgery and lost the muscle tone after/while recovering? did you say she is in a run all day long? i would maybe try to consistently keep exercising her (but not to the point of exhaustion where she is incapacitated for the rest of the day and 1/2 of the next) perhaps several short exercise/training sessions spaced throughout the day would work better for her than just one big one (even if it is one that she should be able to handle) then you could slowly lengthen the sessions and cut the number of them down until she builds the endurance she needs for the one. swimming is great for conditioning and developing muscle tone and mass, but she will burn off every calorie she consumes if she swims like a fish, so i would definitely add some extra "umph" to her food in the form of an additive or just oil. we add vegetable oil to our guy's food for some extra fat and a pretty coat. we have even put leftover scrambled eggs on their food (which they love). actually we are horrible and give them all meat leftovers too... no bad bones though

what "type" of eukanuba is she on.... adult or maintenance or a high pro? in addition to the oil, we changed our guys back to puppy food when we needed them to pack on a few pounds, and that helped a TON. perhaps slowing down her metabolism some might help too. (doesn't eating several small meals a day increase metabolism... or is that just in people?) you could try feeing her more food twice daily if she will eat it. good luck!

Country-Side Breeders · Post by **Country-Side Breeders** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:19 pm

She had her surgery at 5 months and was the same before hand. She's not in a kennel run, but rather a crate...sorry for the confusion. Her owner is a distance runner and she used to go running 10 miles with him everyday, and although she was bigger, he said she was still underweight. He has since hurt a tendon (in Feb.) and hasn't been running her...just going for walks. She does love the water, so hopefully, when they are at their cabin, he'll let her swim, but not over do it. She's on Adult Euk., however he said this morning that he's going to switch over to Canidae (I suggested it to him about a month ago...it's what I use and the dogs work well on it) and is going to try to free feed her. I also suggested adding some mac & cheese to her diet...carbs and protiens. He took her into the vet last month and questioned the weight to him. The vet didn't see it as an issue b/c she is a "happy dog". Not my call there, but just relaying what I've been told.

As for roading her, she really gets burnt out if she has to train in the tall grass (over my head) and drag her check cord with her...then often times she won't make it to the 3rd bird. It's a puzzler here, that's for sure. Thanks for your suggestions...we'll certainly try them.

icefire · Post by **icefire** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:33 pm

suggest a product called energy pack. it is produced by national brand dog food and is distributed by dresslers out of KC. it is a suppliment, not a food and runs something like 44% fat. I give it to the dogs when we are running hard and to my lactating bitch.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:53 pm

do they worry that she might be staying in the crate too much, in addition to not getting enough exercise in general? maybe i am misunderstanding things, but that sounds like a whole ton of time to be stuck in a box. if the guy was running that dog 10 miles a day, i have a question here.... isn't that a pretty long distance to let a puppy run at that age (isn't she just 1 NOW?) maybe it is not, but seems like either way, that dog would be burning some SERIOUS calories!! in addition to slowly increasing her exercise and putting a little extra something or another (or both

) in her food, i would suggest that he try and let her have a little more room to lounge and stretch those legs (maybe an outdoor run if possible, and if not, at least one room in his house or something where she could stretch out a bit) my dogs get stir crazy if they can't get out and play and visit with everyone! good luck!

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:39 am

Put her back on puppy formula or some other good 30/20 at least (diamond or Premium edge being my favorites) add one or two raw eggs, and a tablespoon of safflower oil to the feed every day and in thirty days you should see a HUGE difference. Crating is no good for any dog, especially the sporting breeds she should be left where she can get self regulated exercise as much as possible.

Lastly I've seen a LOT of bitches loose a great deal of their stamina after being spayed young... Which is why I do not recommend it at all and will not spay a bitch until after she's two and has had a chance to fully develop. CR

Colleen · Post by **Colleen** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:00 am

Safflower oil makes the coat look absolutely stunning too. Earlier this summer Fletcher had some dry flaky patches and after a couple weeks of adding safflower oil his coat looked even better than it had before.

Just out of curiosity CR, do you think the stamina thing outweighs the risk of breast and ovarian cancer and makes waiting to spay worth it? Just curious, sometimes it seems like everyone has different advice and different reasons on those kinds of issues.

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:30 pm

Yes Colleen I actually do think there's a number of reasons besides just the stamina issue involved that outweigh the breast and ovarian cancer risks.

I'm a firm believer in nature, and bottom line is that god/mother nature designed females to operate at an optimal level with their sex organs in tact. There's a trememdous benefit to females from the hormone balance that they have with their ovaries and uterus in tact, which they cannot achieve without them. I've been through more dogs in the last thirty years than most people will ever touch in a lifetime, including over forty females raised all they way from puppyhood to well over ten, even 14 years, without being spayed. None of them has ever developed either of those cancers.

As for the statistics that show a benefit from reduced cancer risk you never actually see all the data. For example say you have only 3 bitches in 10,000 that develop one of these cancers. In another sample group of 10,000 who are spayed, you end up with only one that does. Well you can represent that as saying your study shows that you reduced your cancer risk by 2/3 which sounds dramatic, or you can be honest with your figures and say you reduced your cancer risk by .0006333. The latter is both more accurate and gives the whole story, but doesn't promote the spay/neurter agenda does it?

The only thing that is absolutely proven to be of benefit with spay/neuter especially at an early age is that you have eliminated the need for responsible ownership to prevent excess, and unwanted births from occurring. CR

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:09 am

cr,
what about neutering males before 2? have you seen the same effect stamina-wise?

WildRose · Post by **WildRose** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:52 am

Sudie the one problem I've seen with neutering males before three is the lack of muscle mass. That does limit them of course for stamina because they won't naturally carry the same percentage muscle mass that un un neutered dog will. That's not a big deal if you never run a dog over thirty minutes or an hour but it takes a reall horse of a dog to hunt for to eight hours a day, day after day.

There are the other obvious benefits such as lowered aggression, lack of sexual interest in females and things like that, and simply not having to worry about being responsible for unplanned matings, but (pardon me) "bleep" that's why you have a kennel, fenced yard or other means of actually keeping your dogs under control!

All BS aside the impetus of the spay neuter craze has nothing to do with benefitting any individual dog, it is all about eliminating responsibility in controlling mating, and to reduce the pet population over all. CR

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:51 am

yes, i would say overall population control is the main benefit, but you answered my question. if you are faced with neutering your dog for whatever reason, health or personal, it is nice to know both the pros AND the cons of neutering... and if you MUST (or want to) neuter, it's nice to know when it is "safe" to neuter them without affecting their muscle mass and ruining their stamina. if you ARE going to neuter, i think it would be nice (for both the dog and the hunter) to let them get their boldness and confidence before cutting off their brains.

either way, the kennel, fenced yard, etc IMO is still a MUST... they are, after all, hunting dogs... and in my experience, will disappear faster than lightening on their own personal hunt if they are not supervised at all times either by means of a good fence, a kennel, etc , neutered or not!