Another Dog Food Question (sorry!)

[AG74]

Had my dog for about a year now. He is a 18 m.o. GWP. Very healthy, energetic dog. When we got him I started him on Diamond Puppy (which is about 30/20, if I remember correctly). He had loose stools. So at about 11 months old I started to switch him over to Diamond HE (~26/20 also), but he still had loose stools. Finally, got tired of loose stools and tried a little of our other dog's food for him. It is Purina Healthy Morsels, which is much lower protien/fat, maybe like 18/11 or somthing like that. Anyway, put him on 50/50 Purina and Diamond HE, till I ran out of Diamond. Had a small bag of Purina PPP and mixed a little of that in, but loose stools again. So, it seems like all the high protien/high fat foods dont really agree with him.

I'm just worried that the Purina Healthy Morsels just doesn't have enough "nutrients" to give the dog what he really needs. Healthy Morsels just seems like a "pet" dog food, not a hunting dog food.

Any ideas if I'm giving my dog the proper nutrition or not? I feed him 4 cups (2 am, 2 pm) per day with a few treats in between. That is about as much as I can feed him or he gets the runs. Since hunting season is over he has been gaining a little weight, so I'm guessing its ok. "Read the dog, not the bag" is advice I read on here a lot, but just wanted an opinion on this Purina Healthy Morsels as a active, hunting dog food.

Thanks,
Al

[ezzy333]

Sounds like the dog has been getting more fat and protein than he could handle well and it is passed through and the stools get soft and messy. The lower percentage feed solved the problem and allowed him to keep eating the same amount of feed he was getting before. You can do the same thing by feeding the higher percentage feed but just feeding less. And it won't have to be a great deal less but just cut back a quarter and then when the stool gets better you can move him up slowly if his condition looks like he needs more and watch to see when the stool starts getting soft again and that will tell you how much the dog needs.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

If cutting back doesn't work try a food with enzymes and probiotics included or get a supplement. Enzyme supplements are not expensive.

All the foods you mentioned are chicken-based so perhaps the dog is intolerant to chicken. It happens.

[Angus]

You may want to drop a stool sample off at the vet just to rule out any nasties in his system.

[frontline]

20% fat is too much for your dog to process. Try a food with less fat.

[ultracarry]

20% fat is too much for your dog to process. Try a food with less fat.

If you read his post he already did that.

I'm feeding 42/22 and stools are more firm than any 30/20 I have fed. Could be a matter of the dog not digesting the food or any other reason. Some dogs just don't like some foods. I prefer stools to still be solid wheni pick them up even if the sprinklers have been on.

I use an expensive food that's not economical for all but i only have one hunting dog. Price really doesn't matter when I can see the results. Until someone makes the ideal percentages (in my eyes) I will stick with what works.

BTW if any other dog gets the runs or loose stools they get some 42/22 in their food and it will be gone.

[Cajun Casey]

Try the Beef Meal and Rice Naturals.

[mcbosco]

20% fat is too much for your dog to process. Try a food with less fat.

If you read his post he already did that.

I'm feeding 42/22 and stools are more firm than any 30/20 I have fed. Could be a matter of the dog not digesting the food or any other reason. Some dogs just don't like some foods. I prefer stools to still be solid wheni pick them up even if the sprinklers have been on.

I use an expensive food that's not economical for all but i only have one hunting dog. Price really doesn't matter when I can see the results. Until someone makes the ideal percentages (in my eyes) I will stick with what works.

BTW if any other dog gets the runs or loose stools they get some 42/22 in their food and it will be gone.

I have used some with as much as 30% fat and the dogs would not have a movement some days, when they did it was like a Tootsie Roll.

I like Casey's idea, try Beef and see what happens, pork might be an option too.

[MikeB]

AG74,
I also agree over feeding is the #1 cause of loose stools. Next would be ingredients in the food and percentage of fat.

The first question is.... exactly how much food per meal are you feeding your dog? You must measure using a measuring cup used for cooking.

I resently was consulting with a new training client and asked how much were they feeding their pup. They showed me a tall plastic container and said we feed one on these AM & PM. I said wow how much does that container hold??? We measured and found out it holds 4 cups of food. So the dog was eating 8 cups a day.... OMG... it was a 5 month old Olde English Bulldogge.

So measure and tell us how much your feeding.

[Angus]

AG74,
I also agree over feeding is the #1 cause of loose stools. Next would be ingredients in the food and percentage of fat.

The first question is.... exactly how much food per meal are you feeding your dog? You must measure using a measuring cup used for cooking.

I resently was consulting with a new training client and asked how much were they feeding their pup. They showed me a tall plastic container and said we feed one on these AM & PM. I said wow how much does that container hold??? We measured and found out it holds 4 cups of food. So the dog was eating 8 cups a day.... OMG... it was a 5 month old Olde English Bulldogge.

So measure and tell us how much your feeding.

8 cups!!!!

Was the Bulldog square?

[frontline]

20% fat is too much for your dog to process. Try a food with less fat.

If you read his post he already did that.

The OP tried one food with lower fat and didn't have problems, the others had 20% fat.

Why would you feed a 42% protein food when a dog can only assimilate around 34%? The extra protein that your feeding just ends up on your lawn.

[zigzag]

How long have you been feeding 4 cups a day? since he was a puppy 6 months? Is that the recomended dose for his weight per bag? I think that you have High performance dog food and 4 cups may be a bit much. I have a 8 month puppy, feeding Canidae all life stage. 24/14.5 the puppy serving for his weight would be Max 4 cups, really 3 cups if you read between the lines. If I didint consider him a Puppy and lets say he was at his full weight 55lbs or so the serving would be around 3-4 cups a day. I think a messuring scoup is an absolute must have, they are cheep get a 1 cup scoup and a 2 cup scoup, together they come in handy for mixing when you transition the dog to another food or a high performance feed during huntin season. Good Luck my friend.

[birddogger]

How long have you been feeding 4 cups a day? since he was a puppy 6 months? Is that the recomended dose for his weight per bag? I think that you have High performance dog food and 4 cups may be a bit much. I have a 8 month puppy, feeding Canidae all life stage. 24/14.5 the puppy serving for his weight would be Max 4 cups, really 3 cups if you read between the lines. If I didint consider him a Puppy and lets say he was at his full weight 55lbs or so the serving would be around 3-4 cups a day. I think a messuring scoup is an absolute must have, they are cheep get a 1 cup scoup and a 2 cup scoup, together they come in handy for mixing when you transition the dog to another food or a high performance feed during huntin season. Good Luck my friend.

FWIW, I don't even read what the recomended amount is. Every dog/puppy is differenet and I feed the amount it takes to keep that particular dog in the proper condition. I have one dog that I have to feed a little more and two that I have to cut down from time to time. A different formula may be needed, depending on the dog's activity level.

Charlie

[ultracarry]

20% fat is too much for your dog to process. Try a food with less fat.

If you read his post he already did that.

The OP tried one food with lower fat and didn't have problems, the others had 20% fat.

Why would you feed a 42% protein food when a dog can only assimilate around 34%? The extra protein that your feeding just ends up on your lawn.

Where is that piece of information located please cite. Who did the research? Are there others who backed the research .... Please share because I would like to read it.

Also because the food has 32, 30, 28 percent protein sure does not mean the dog would digest it all. Maybe a lot less. You have to account for a lot of variables in ever dog and no research unless it was done using my dog will be 100% accurate. If it was then all dog foods would have the same percentages unless they were lower quality (also depends on individual buying). I feed EVO , haven't found a food my dog does better on.

Also I would much rather pick up firm stool filled with protien from my hard then runny stool that sticks to my lawn and deal with the gas associated... 42/22 and it works for me and my puppy.

[zigzag]

I do agree with the OP "read the dog not the label". That said nothing wrong with testing your serving size, If the dog is holding weight looks good but has loose stools the simple suggestion as others have posted would be to feed less. It saves you money and you dont need to switch food.

[ezzy333]

Ultra, some truth to what you are saying but it isn't quite as complex as you are trying to make it. You do know if we believe all that we read on this forum dogs are the only animal in the world where we have to have a different formula for every individual dog. And that just isn't true with dogs any more than it is with other animals including humans. Digestive systems are digestive systems and though each specie vary considerable there is little difference with in the specie. If that wasn't true we would not have any food made for a certain animal since they are all different and require a different food. And that just isn't true even though a lot of pet owners seem to think so.

Ezzy

[ultracarry]

There are a lot of variations with humans. A lot of people don't have a clue how your digestive system works. A lot will Google it after reading this post. How you keep your body has a lot to do with how you absorb nutrients. What you put in it determines what can be absorbed later.... Energy expended, not expended. That's humans. Now dogs haven't had head the same amount of research. So who knows. Maybe if there is any unbiased research it would take out a lot of food brands.

But again I'm perfectly happy with the amount of money I'm spending for the results I'm getting.

[mcbosco]

Ultracarry,

The other poster is probably referring to the research done by Kronfeld which determined that long distance sled dogs showed no sign anemia or other protein-related maladies when they ate a minimum of 32% protein. This was about the time the first performance foods starting showing up on the shelves. You can thank Alpo for funding all that research.

Studies by the same guy determined that short-distance dogs did fine on slightly less. So you could infer that non-racing dogs don't really need that much protein. The vast majority of foods on the market are 20 - 25% so you could say the experts agree this is about all a dog needs. Virtually all performance foods are 28% -32%, with a few 35% foods, so again the experts appear to believe this is plenty.

I met Robert Abady about 15 years ago and he told me he stopped at around 30% because he didn't think the dogs got any benefit from more than that. He had over 200 dogs in his kennel as a reference point. He was making 30% animal protein foods long before anyone else was.

Evo is unique in the high protein diet segment because it is high in fat, whereas most are moderate fat.

That accounts for why you have such good luck with it, not just you by the way. IMO

[bossman]

AG74....First of all, great looking dog in your avatar picture!! Lot's of good advice given. I have never heard or even seen Purina Healthy Morsel's. Some on this board have great luck with Diamond products, others not so good no matter how much they feed. I think I would start by cutting back some and if that doesn't work, take the advice of those that have suggested a different feed, either a different formula or souce of animal protein . I would think the effects of cutting back would be evident within a week or two. But I am in the "change the feed" camp. Good luck.

[birddogger]

I do agree with the OP "read the dog not the label". That said nothing wrong with testing your serving size, If the dog is holding weight looks good but has loose stools the simple suggestion as others have posted would be to feed less. It saves you money and you dont need to switch food.

You are correct, there is nothing at all wrong with testing your serving size. I have done it a couple of times just out of curiosity but other than that, it serves no purpose for me. But that's just me.

Charlie

[AG74]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everyone. 4 cups is what I feed him now, have been since hunting season. Prior to last hunting season, 3 per day, when he was still a puppy (less than 12 months).

His stools are pretty good on the Purina Healthy Morsels, so I am hesitant to change, but I'm pretty sure there is a better food out there for him (ie - more protein/fat that will agree with him better). I just don't really like the idea of changing foods all the time to try to find one that works great, when we have one that is good. But, I am worried that Healthy Morsels may have enough nutients, if that makes sense. Its definitely not a hunting dog formula.

Anyway, thanks again for the great advice, I'll try some different things!

Al

[ezzy333]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everyone. 4 cups is what I feed him now, have been since hunting season. Prior to last hunting season, 3 per day, when he was still a puppy (less than 12 months).

His stools are pretty good on the Purina Healthy Morsels, so I am hesitant to change, but I'm pretty sure there is a better food out there for him (ie - more protein/fat that will agree with him better). I just don't really like the idea of changing foods all the time to try to find one that works great, when we have one that is good. But, I am worried that Healthy Morsels may have enough nutients, if that makes sense. Its definitely not a hunting dog formula.

Anyway, thanks again for the great advice, I'll try some different things!

Al

Don't change. People get confused between percentage and actual consumption. If you go to a higher percentage feed and feed less you are not increasing the amount consumed so it is not better but just a wash. That is the main reason in reality why one food is not much better or worse for our dogs. You may feed a little less and have a little less stool but neither of those things relate to better for your dog, just that it is slightly less work for you possibly and that is even doubtful.

Ezzy

[mcbosco]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everyone. 4 cups is what I feed him now, have been since hunting season. Prior to last hunting season, 3 per day, when he was still a puppy (less than 12 months).

His stools are pretty good on the Purina Healthy Morsels, so I am hesitant to change, but I'm pretty sure there is a better food out there for him (ie - more protein/fat that will agree with him better). I just don't really like the idea of changing foods all the time to try to find one that works great, when we have one that is good. But, I am worried that Healthy Morsels may have enough nutients, if that makes sense. Its definitely not a hunting dog formula.

Anyway, thanks again for the great advice, I'll try some different things!

Al

Don't change. People get confused between percentage and actual consumption. If you go to a higher percentage feed and feed less you are not increasing the amount consumed so it is not better but just a wash. That is the main reason in reality why one food is not much better or worse for our dogs. You may feed a little less and have a little less stool but neither of those things relate to better for your dog, just that it is slightly less work for you possibly and that is even doubtful.

Ezzy

Except, when you use foods with lower protein and lower fat the dogs get much more carbohydrate than they should.

[Ralph Ford]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies everyone. 4 cups is what I feed him now, have been since hunting season. Prior to last hunting season, 3 per day, when he was still a puppy (less than 12 months).

His stools are pretty good on the Purina Healthy Morsels, so I am hesitant to change, but I'm pretty sure there is a better food out there for him (ie - more protein/fat that will agree with him better). I just don't really like the idea of changing foods all the time to try to find one that works great, when we have one that is good. But, I am worried that Healthy Morsels may have enough nutients, if that makes sense. Its definitely not a hunting dog formula.

Anyway, thanks again for the great advice, I'll try some different things!

Al

Don't change. People get confused between percentage and actual consumption. If you go to a higher percentage feed and feed less you are not increasing the amount consumed so it is not better but just a wash. That is the main reason in reality why one food is not much better or worse for our dogs. You may feed a little less and have a little less stool but neither of those things relate to better for your dog, just that it is slightly less work for you possibly and that is even doubtful.

Ezzy

Except, when you use foods with lower protein and lower fat the dogs get much more carbohydrate than they should.

The numbers don't get much lower than those offered in AG74's choice of feeds.

[dr tim]

Guys, it really is about keeping the colon working as well as it can. It needs to function correctly and everything above will start to fall into place and function properly as well. The colon is primarily meant to conserve water, this leads to a firm stool.It does so by having what is with in it not cause more water to be secreted into its space, or lumen. What I mean by this is that material in the colon tend to pull water from the body to equalize the osmotic pressure, like osmosis. Or in response to a toxin. Things that do this are undigested nutrients such as protein, fat and carbs that escape digestion and assimilation upstairs in the small intestine and make their way to the colon.

Carbs are not digested because either they were not processed properly at the production plant or there is just too much of them. Cows can process carbs that are not cooked because they have multiple stomachs and are meant to do so. Dogs need em cooked ahead of time like humans. Proteins are not digested in either because they are very poor quality proteins or the transit times are too fast in the intestinal tract. Fats are not digested because of transit time, a new or novel fat that they have not become accustomed to yet or just too much with out a need.

So, things reach the colon that shouldn't because of; 1. Not processed properly prior to eating 2. Transit time too fast and nutrients evade complete digestion and assimilation in the small intestine-how to correct? Proper types and levels of fibers in diet. 3. Poor quality ingredient in the first place 4. System overloaded with too much of one nutrient 5. Illness such as worms, viruses, intestinal disease, etc...

How to correct? Process the ingredients properly. For instance, most companies are satisfied with a carbohydrate "cook" or "digestability rate" of 80%. This leaves 20% of the carbs in said product unusable by the dog and it ends up in the colon, pulls water into the colon and viola, soft stools. This is the trade off the large companies accept with producing 1000,000 lbs of food an hour on a machine being used at warp speed. Slow it down some and this number may very well go up. Stockholders don't like that idea.

Bet your Momma's best cheesecake this is what happened with the dog that began this whole post.

There is a huge difference in quality of dog foods out there. It all depends on what you want out of your dog and what you are satisfied with. If all dogs are on one brand at a competition it does not make a difference. Start having a few on something different and the tables turn. Typically for the better for that adventurous person.

The question on the EVO is that it is very low in carbs and that has a big benefit. Whether it can hold up in a highly athletic event, I doubt due to the fiber make up is lacking amongst a few other things but it is not intended for that arena.

So, when this discussion of loose stools comes up, reduce the food and see if the stools firm up. If they don't after a few days, the food doesn't jive with said dog. Watching a lot of dogs for over 20 years as a vet and sportsman, there are differences between individuals that may need specific adjustments for. And foods have come light years from where they were at even 10 years ago. This only benefits the animal and its healthy lifespan.

[JIM K]

some dogs if you give them ANYTHING from table, they get very bad stools.i gave toby 1/2 inch of hotdog with mustard and he was mess .1/2 inch of hotdog. :roll:

[AG74]

OK, I discovered there are a couple good websites that do dog food analysis: dogfoodadvisor.com and dogfoodanalysis.com

Not sure if anyone has looked at these yet, but according to both, Purina Healthy Morsels is a 1 star (below average) dog food. So, that pretty much answered my question for me. Even though my hunting dog has firmer stools while on this food, it doesn't appear to be a very high quality food. So we will probably start looking for something a little higher in quality for him and our other pet dog.

Thanks to everyone for their input on here, I appreciate it.

al

[mcbosco]

OK, I discovered there are a couple good websites that do dog food analysis: dogfoodadvisor.com and dogfoodanalysis.com

Not sure if anyone has looked at these yet, but according to both, Purina Healthy Morsels is a 1 star (below average) dog food. So, that pretty much answered my question for me. Even though my hunting dog has firmer stools while on this food, it doesn't appear to be a very high quality food. So we will probably start looking for something a little higher in quality for him and our other pet dog.

Thanks to everyone for their input on here, I appreciate it.

al

Try beef or pork and see if that helps.

[Ralph Ford]

Dr. Tim,
Great post. You had me right on the edge of my seat anticipating the answer to everyone's question about dog food. Is there anything on the ingredients and analysis charts printed on feed bags that a fella can take to the bank as making a difference?