heartworm prevention

cheetome · Post by **cheetome** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:50 pm

Ok so I want to use ivomec and safegaurd liquid for goats instead of buying heartgaurd plus. My question is what is the proper dose for each and should or could they be given at the same time orshould they be spaced apart? Also would be open to other suggestions.

Thanks

Post by **topher40** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Ivermectrin for cattle and swine, 1% solution. Use it and call it good. Why complicate matters? :roll:

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:35 pm

The only thing the fenbendazole treats that's not covered by the ivermectin is whipworms and it doesn't prevent heartworm. www.beaglesunlimited.com is a good site for DIY info.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:52 pm

If you only have a few dogs, or maybe you have one, use the 1.87% paste instead. A half pea-sized for a medium breed and pea-sized for a large breed.

The liquid will expire before you can ever get close to finishing it and the paste is $2.99 for 50 doses or more.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:06 pm

I have been told by 3 different vets: .1ml per 10lbs weight is safe and effective for Ivermec.

jimssetters · Post by **jimssetters** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:25 pm

I have been told by 3 different vets: .1ml per 10lbs weight is safe and effective for Ivermec. Same here in Missouri. My vet will not recommend it but says this is the proper dose.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:44 pm

jimssetters wrote:I have been told by 3 different vets: .1ml per 10lbs weight is safe and effective for Ivermec. Same here in Missouri. My vet will not recommend it but says this is the proper dose.

They can not legally recommend it since it is off label usage.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:18 am

I went to the paste a couple of years ago. It's incredibly easy.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:34 am

TraditionsGSPs2010 wrote:.1ml per 10lbs weight is safe and effective for Ivermec.

+2...extremely easy, safe and cheap!

cheetome · Post by **cheetome** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:41 am

Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:49 am

cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?

It's easy to dose the paste. One "click" or two click's depending on the size dog you dose.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:03 am

cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?

I use the one made by Durvet, Apple Flavored plain Ivermection 1.875%. The syringe is metered every 50lbs for horses. Each tooth or click is about 4,000 micrograms, which is a small dosage.

That product is like Jello, so just slice half off with a thin knife for a medium dog or the whole click for a larg dog.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:21 am

Ivermectin has a huge range of safety. I give mine a half click erring on the low side. This because the dose that we give with the .1cc/10lbs of dog is many times what is necessary for heartworm prevention.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:50 pm

TraditionsGSPs2010 wrote:I have been told by 3 different vets: .1ml per 10lbs weight is safe and effective for Ivermec.

I had a local vet write me out specific dosing based on the Ivermectin cattle/swine - she says .1 per 10lbs is at least double the amount that you need to be effective. So I've cut way back on my dosing based on her written recommendations. Prior to that I did use the .1 dosing based on the info I obtained from the beagle board. I don't know if fenbendazole is necessary, but I do dose the dogs with that instead of the Ivermectin in December - so basically, once a year I use an alternative as more of a full-spectrum approach. Three days in a row with the fenbendazole.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:13 pm

A heartguard used to have about 300 micrograms for a 50ish lb dog.

.1 cc of 1 percent Ivermectin cattle is 1000 micrograms.....so 1/10 of a cc is about 3 times the heartguard dose. Plenty safe but more than necessary for prevention.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:37 pm

Even the "Heartguard" product is the same dose for dogs from 22pounds to 48 pounds ...136ug of Ivermectin.

Did you know those heartworms average 35 cm . in length?

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:46 am

cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?

When using paste the dose isn't accurate, it could be way off but probably safe. If the paste isn't homogeneous you risk not giving enough but more likely the dose will be many times more than what's needed. You're on your own using these products since the manufacturer won't stand behind them when using them with dogs.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:07 pm

frontline wrote:
cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?
When using paste the dose isn't accurate, it could be way off but probably safe. If the paste isn't homogeneous you risk not giving enough but more likely the dose will be many times more than what's needed. You're on your own using these products since the manufacturer won't stand behind them when using them with dogs.

The amount I use is a drop in the bucket compared to what is used for general worming or mange. As far a toxicity goes, the whole tube is barely enough according to the toxcity studies for a dog like mine.

I have heard things about the ivermectin not being equally distributed but I thoroughly checked into it with the companies. The Durvet guy was dumbfounded by the question.

How else would a company make the product if it didn't thoroughly mix it first and then put in the tube. Also, if the tube was only meant for a 1,250lb horse why can you adjust the dose for say a pony or a foal? Not one of them says "caution single use only for a 1,250lb horse".

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:16 pm

mcbosco wrote:
frontline wrote:
cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?
When using paste the dose isn't accurate, it could be way off but probably safe. If the paste isn't homogeneous you risk not giving enough but more likely the dose will be many times more than what's needed. You're on your own using these products since the manufacturer won't stand behind them when using them with dogs.

The amount I use is a drop in the bucket compared to what is used for general worming or mange. As far a toxicity goes, the whole tube is barely enough according to the toxcity studies for a dog like mine.

I have heard things about the ivermectin not being equally distributed but I thoroughly checked into it with the companies. The Durvet guy was dumbfounded by the question.

How else would a company make the product if it didn't thoroughly mix it first and then put in the tube. Also, if the tube was only meant for a 1,250lb horse why can you adjust the dose for say a pony or a foal? Not one of them says "caution single use only for a 1,250lb horse".

Who uses or recommends Ivermectin for worms? Ivermectin isn't even used to kill adult heartworms, it's not very effective for worms.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:41 pm

frontline wrote:
cheetome wrote:Thanks for the replies. Those of you that use the paste have you had any problems? It doesn't seem like the measurments would be as accurate? Also do you give a dose of safegaurd once a year to get the worms ivomec doesn't?
When using paste the dose isn't accurate, it could be way off but probably safe. If the paste isn't homogeneous you risk not giving enough but more likely the dose will be many times more than what's needed. You're on your own using these products since the manufacturer won't stand behind them when using them with dogs.

They will not stand behind them because they have not been approved for dogs.The reason is not that they don't work but rather the cost of getting the approval is so great it isn't practical for a minor speice by the time you do all of the research and testing required.

Regrdless of that, it is an extremely safe drug that performs many functions and has been used for several years now because it works. There is no reason for anyone to be afraid to use it since it has such a large leeway in dosage while not causing any serious side effects..

For those of you that also keep pigeons, it is very effective on internal waorming and also in killing external bugs. Just another way to use up that bottle of 1% solution before it outdates.

And by the way, the paste is required to be homogeneous just like the feed you feed or the spray you use or any other material being sold that is labeled for partial use.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:12 pm

For the sake of completeness, just a reminder about not using ivermectin with collies and related.

http://www.awca.net/drug.htm

Greg J.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:21 pm

So, do the DIY ivermectin users have your dogs annually tested for heartworm infection?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:29 pm

No. Ivermec don't get round worms though. Or tape worm

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:34 pm

cjhills wrote:No. Ivermec don't get round worms though. Or tape worm

Tapeworms it won't but roundworms?? I thought it did.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:13 pm

mcbosco wrote:
cjhills wrote:No. Ivermec don't get round worms though. Or tape worm
Tapeworms it won't but roundworms?? I thought it did.

It does.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:35 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:
cjhills wrote:No. Ivermec don't get round worms though. Or tape worm
Tapeworms it won't but roundworms?? I thought it did.
It does.

Ezzy

The dosage of Ivermec that is in Heartguard and similar meds, it may not but the dosage that is normally given with the straight Ivermectin, it does.

Charlie

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:50 pm

Maybe you have whimpy round worms in Illinios ,because in Northern MN. it don't

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:01 pm

cheetome wrote:Ok so I want to use ivomec and safegaurd liquid for goats instead of buying heartgaurd plus. My question is what is the proper dose for each and should or could they be given at the same time orshould they be spaced apart? Also would be open to other suggestions.

Thanks

This is all great info, but the OP asked about goats and you all keep talkin' about dogs.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:37 pm

BigShooter wrote:
cheetome wrote:Ok so I want to use ivomec and safegaurd liquid for goats instead of buying heartgaurd plus. My question is what is the proper dose for each and should or could they be given at the same time orshould they be spaced apart? Also would be open to other suggestions.

Thanks
This is all great info, but the OP asked about goats and you all keep talkin' about dogs.

They are about the same.

Ezzy

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:10 pm

ezzy333 wrote: They are about the same.

Ezzy

What dog food do you feed your goats?

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:29 am

ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:43 am

As for roundworms, I have never seen an adult dog with roundworms, not even the rescues I sponsor.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:14 am

Ezzy- what amount do you use for your pigeons? Just add to their water? And how often?
Thanks!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:35 am

dog dr wrote:ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?

Based On what my vet tells me, plus having a dog on Ivomec year around get round worms. Not scientific and maybe she did not get the full dose, but she had round worms.
McBosco: If adult dogs don't get round worms where do puppies get them from. Almost all dogs have Cyst that contain round worms eggs that burst in stressful situations. Such as whelping, This is what causes almost all puppies to have round worms. Again not scientific, but what my vets and the UofM vets and my own observations have told me. How does a three week old puppy get round worms If not from It's mother. Almost all untreated rescue dogs we see have round worms some in huge numbers. I suppose if you give enough of any poison it will kill round worms.
CJ

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:52 am

cjhills wrote:
dog dr wrote:ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?
Based On what my vet tells me, plus having a dog on Ivomec year around get round worms. Not scientific and maybe she did not get the full dose, but she had round worms.
McBosco: If adult dogs don't get round worms where do puppies get them from. Almost all dogs have Cyst that contain round worms eggs that burst in stressful situations. Such as whelping, This is what causes almost all puppies to have round worms. Again not scientific, but what my vets and the UofM vets and my own observations have told me. How does a three week old puppy get round worms If not from It's mother. Almost all untreated rescue dogs we see have round worms some in huge numbers. I suppose if you give enough of any poison it will kill round worms.
CJ

Puppies get the worms through the bitch's milk and adult dogs may carry the cysts but rarely will an adult dog get a full blown infestation unless there is an immunity problem or the load is huge. If an adult dog repeatedly gets a roundworm infestation something could be wrong or the dog's environment is filthy, not saying yours is. It just doesn't seem to be an issue for adult dogs. Stress can open a wall in the immune system like you mentioned.

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:18 am

dog dr wrote:ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?

With all due respect, I would ask you the same. Link? (IVIS is ok) Doseage?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:52 am

frontline wrote:
dog dr wrote:ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?
With all due respect, I would ask you the same. Link? (IVIS is ok) Doseage?

It is evident if you have your dogs checked for worms. I haven't even had to worm my puppies in the past few years. The dam shows clean and hasn't been wormed since she was a pup.'

It just doesn't make much sense to get on here and start questioning what most of us have learned through experience and a few through their schooling. And you ask what they are baseing their claim on. Knowledge I think would be the correct answer.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:44 pm

I suppose if you give enough of any poison it will kill round worms.
CJ

:roll: :roll:

Charlie

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:40 pm

frontline wrote:
dog dr wrote:ivomec will kill roundworms, in IL, CA, GA, FL, TX, and MN, not to mention the other 44 states of the union (or the other 51 if you listen to our president). At higher doses, it will even get whipworms. cjhills, what are you basing your claims on?? scientific or anecdotal evidence?
With all due respect, I would ask you the same. Link? (IVIS is ok) Doseage?

I must admit that part of it is what I was taught in school. But most is based on me giving dogs and pigs ivomec aind seeing dead roundworms come out in their stool.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:37 am

Might be my dose was too low, but I have seen round worms in the stool of adult dogs on Ivermec. Both were dogs I bought as adults from the south.They had very little care and had heavy worm infestations. For sure at the levels in Heart Guard, Ivermec will not kill round worms. That is why they have Heart Gaurd plus. Sorry, if I posted info some people consider wrong. My mistake.
I have had very good results with dogs I have raised, which have been on Ivermec their entire life. Fecal checks on my puppies have generally been clean. But occasionally they too have round worms. We don't have a lot of other worms this far north.
CJ

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote:It just doesn't make much sense to get on here and start questioning what most of us have learned through experience and a few through their schooling. And you ask what they are baseing their claim on. Knowledge I think would be the correct answer.

Ezzy

It makes no sense to me why you would rebuke my request for something more concrete, something more than because-I-say-it's so. Sometimes internet knowledge isn't knowledge at all and knowledge should have a scientific basis. The absence of worms in a dog does not prove Ivomec is eliminating them and animals with heavy loads often pass worms even without treatment, quite often results are derived from anecdotal evidence and that's why controlled experiments should be done.

For every person that claims Ivomec will eliminate roundworms there are probably more people and vets who have found it to not be effective. It's impossible to gain useful knowledge from others if you don't know what size dose was actually given, diluting 1% Ivomec solution correctly is something many people fail at. Without having this knowledge a statement saying Ivomec treats worms is not warranted and is misleading to others.

Higher therapeutic doses that many are using may be considered safe but ask yourself, what are the added benefits of a larger dose for a normal dog? The benefits should outweigh the risks (known or unknown) and the smallest effective dose should be used. My dogs are a part of my family and I do not consider them livestock. If someone has specific information (text citation or abstract) that Ivomec is an efficient antihelminthic for roundworm in dogs I would like to know the size of dose required and the source of that information.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:06 pm

You want confirmation from a vet for his recommendation and then give us the long post telling us where we all are wrong, and I don't see a thing you have posted that confirms your personal opinion. It is fine to have your opinion but it isn't real good to tell all of us that have used it and the good doctor that we don't know what we are talking about.

I am sure you also know the experience level of the people you are down grading. Would be willing to bet you won't have as much 30 years from now as many on here have today in longevity or knowledge.

We do try to let everyone voice their opinions unless it just flies directly in the face of known facts, and when they do we try to correct them before some new inexperienced member reads it and thinks it is fact and screws up taking care of his dog. Hope in the future you can join in and help some of the people along too.

Ezzy

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:You want confirmation from a vet for his recommendation and then give us the long post telling us where we all are wrong, and I don't see a thing you have posted that confirms your personal opinion. It is fine to have your opinion but it isn't real good to tell all of us that have used it and the good doctor that we don't know what we are talking about.

I am sure you also know the experience level of the people you are down grading. Would be willing to bet you won't have as much 30 years from now as many on here have today in longevity or knowledge.

We do try to let everyone voice their opinions unless it just flies directly in the face of known facts, and when they do we try to correct them before some new inexperienced member reads it and thinks it is fact and screws up taking care of his dog. Hope in the future you can join in and help some of the people along too.

Ezzy

Just because someone is a new member here doesn't mean they are inexperienced, I've been raising and treating dogs for over 40 years! I doubt I'll be around for another 30 years, lol.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:23 pm

I don't think just because I'm old Necessarily makes me smart. In fact somethings I knew everything about 30 years ago I find I don't know so much about now. It is very simple to take a fecal sample to my vet and for $17 have her check for worms of all kinds. If I don't think Ivermec works on round worms, which I am not sure of, I can worm with Pyrantel Pomate very cheap. So it really don't make any difference. It is the heart worm we are after and the deer tick that get stuck on the dogs I know it kills them because I can see them and they didn't have any thing else to die from and we have never had dog with heart worm. Maybe lucky I don't know. But at $100 per dog for 6 months of Heart Gard, I can buy a whole kennel full of dogs with my savings. In our Area Biospot kicks Frontline's butt and costs way less. No scientific proof of that either except my observations on my dogs.
Some people just can't deal with some thing that works that don't cost a arm and a leg. When I came into the 21 century I brought my dogs with me I am a firm believer in vet care and probably make my vets car payments some months. I pay her to do a lot of things I could do myself. Because I want her there when I come to something I can't do myself ,Or would rather not do myself. But I don't pay her for Heart Gaurd and frontline when I have something that works better for way less money.
Again no scientific evidence I can just check my Wallet. Have a nice night CJ
Incidentally I would like to know how to dose the pigeons

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:35 pm

Ivomec is a wormer but does not include dogs on the label because they have never done the testing on dogs that is required in our present protocol before they can be added to the labeled use. That is why we use the material labeled for cattle or horses. It worms them also. It is also used to get rid of external pests. Probably the widest used wormer in the world, but just isn't cost effective for the manufacturer to do for a minor specie with the drugs they manufacture and sell.

I will get the info for the birds but I don't want to tell you till I check that I am giving you the correct dosage. I have the info out in the shed.

Ezzy

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:58 pm

cjhills wrote:I don't think just because I'm old Necessarily makes me smart. In fact somethings I knew everything about 30 years ago I find I don't know so much about now.

How much your brain retains has to do with how much you use it and continuing education requirements help too

.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:45 am

Knowledge grows and changes so much so fast many just don't keep up. What you knew a few years ago isn't always right today. But there are also many things that have changed that wasn't necessarily for the better.

Ezzy

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:10 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Knowledge grows and changes so much so fast many just don't keep up. What you knew a few years ago isn't always right today. But there are also many things that have changed that wasn't necessarily for the better.

Ezzy

This is why continuing education is required for professional licensure.

PrairieGoat · Post by **PrairieGoat** » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:12 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:So, do the DIY ivermectin users have your dogs annually tested for heartworm infection?

Yes, I have mine tested yearly. Have always come back negative. I dose at a lower rate than most...about 0.05cc for my dogs (55-60 lbs).

I don't worry about its effect, or lack thereof, on intestinal worms. I use Drontal Plus for them.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:46 pm

Heartguard is labeled for roundworms i am almost sure it is ivomectrin

How does Heartgard Plus work?
Heartgard Plus is used in the prevention of heartworm infection and the control and treatment of various other worm infections. It kills the immature form of the heartworm (Dirofilaria immitis), which is transmitted by a mosquito. It is also used for the treatment and control of hookworms (Ancylostoma caninum, A. brasiliense, and Uncinaria stenocephala) and roundworms (ascarids - Toxocara canis, Toxascaris leonina).

Fester