royal canin 4300 energy or eukanuba working/endurance

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:37 pm

Anybody given any of these two brands a bash for working/hunting dogs and which would you experts recommend and have had positive results with.Like i said we dont have a variety of energy dog foods here in SA,If anyone knows of these two brands and tried them,which of them has given your dogs more or if uve seen better results with either of the above.Regards Peter.

Ghosted3 · Post by **Ghosted3** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:05 am

Eukanuba is good, but there are cheaper foods out there that work just as well.

Corry

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:15 am

Dont know abt the States but here u either get very good dog food that costs a fortune or mediocre to low grade dog food which aint going to give a hunting dog all the nutrients it needs to hunt all day or compete.what/which dog foods do u recommend maybe with some investigating i can source them here.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:28 am

Have you looked at ProPlan Performance?

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:53 am

we dont have it here in SA.

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:30 pm

I wouldn't recommend either. Royal Canin and Eukanuba are full of fillers.

Royal Canin 4300 Energy ingredients: Meat meal (bird), corn flour, animal fats, maize gluten, beet pulp, vegetable fat (coconut fat), Poultry Liver, Corn, Fish Oil, psyllium, bran, fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS), yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), Glucosamine chloride, Kondroitinsufat , Taurine, L-carnitine, Trace elements, Vitamins

Meat meal (what type of meat? Better yet, what type of bird?), corn flour, animal fats (what type of animal fats and how many different animals?), maize gluten (corn gluten), beet pulp, poultry liver (what type of poultry?), corn, fish oil, psyllium (psyllium husks), bran, yeast extract. This food is filled with fillers and unnamed meats. You don't know what you're really feeding, stay away from this food.

Eukanuba Working/Endurance ingredients: Dried Chicken and Turkey (>30%, a natural source of glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate), maize, animal fat, wheat, rice, sorghum, dried beet pulp (>2.5%), dried whole egg, chicken digest, fish oil, brewer's dried yeast, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, linseed, sodium hexametaphosphate, fructooligosaccharides (0.40%), calcium carbonate.

Dried chicken and turkey (never heard of the term dried chicken and turkey in a dog food before, it should just say chicken and turkey), maize (corn - filler), animal fat (what type of animal?), wheat (filler), rice (filler), sorghum (filler), dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, chicken digest, brewer's dried yeast (filler).

Eukanuba Working/Endurance is filled with fillers and unnamed meats too. Stay away from this food!

Back to Basics, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen are all great foods.

Dog Food Information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:32 pm

What's a filler?

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:44 am

Thanks for info,very informative and an eye opener.Again it doesnt solve the problem as the dog foods uve listed below your post are not available here.Think ive seen Call of the Wild or something to that effect but again very expensive here in SA,WE also have PRO PAC and HILLS,which one would u recommend out of the ones ive just mentioned,thanks.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:26 am

Pro Pac

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:15 am

B&BWeims wrote:I wouldn't recommend either. Royal Canin and Eukanuba are full of fillers.

Royal Canin 4300 Energy ingredients: Meat meal (bird), corn flour, animal fats, maize gluten, beet pulp, vegetable fat (coconut fat), Poultry Liver, Corn, Fish Oil, psyllium, bran, fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS), yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), Glucosamine chloride, Kondroitinsufat , Taurine, L-carnitine, Trace elements, Vitamins

Meat meal (what type of meat? Better yet, what type of bird?), corn flour, animal fats (what type of animal fats and how many different animals?), maize gluten (corn gluten), beet pulp, poultry liver (what type of poultry?), corn, fish oil, psyllium (psyllium husks), bran, yeast extract. This food is filled with fillers and unnamed meats. You don't know what you're really feeding, stay away from this food.

Eukanuba Working/Endurance ingredients: Dried Chicken and Turkey (>30%, a natural source of glucosamine and chondroitin sulphate), maize, animal fat, wheat, rice, sorghum, dried beet pulp (>2.5%), dried whole egg, chicken digest, fish oil, brewer's dried yeast, potassium chloride, sodium chloride, linseed, sodium hexametaphosphate, fructooligosaccharides (0.40%), calcium carbonate.

Dried chicken and turkey (never heard of the term dried chicken and turkey in a dog food before, it should just say chicken and turkey), maize (corn - filler), animal fat (what type of animal?), wheat (filler), rice (filler), sorghum (filler), dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, chicken digest, brewer's dried yeast (filler).

Eukanuba Working/Endurance is filled with fillers and unnamed meats too. Stay away from this food!

Back to Basics, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen are all great foods.

Dog Food Information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

Not meaning to be a smart azz but you are so far off base it isn't funny!!!

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:24 am

molonlave1 wrote:Thanks for info,very informative and an eye opener.Again it doesnt solve the problem as the dog foods uve listed below your post are not available here.Think ive seen Call of the Wild or something to that effect but again very expensive here in SA,WE also have PRO PAC and HILLS,which one would u recommend out of the ones ive just mentioned,thanks.

I agree with brad on the Pro Pac. It is a very good feed as are many, many others, but since you are asking about Pro Pac, Hills and Call of the Wild, I would highly recommend Pro Pac.

Charlie

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:18 am

Which pro pac in particular should i go for,and is pro pac better then eukanuba?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:32 am

If you have Pro Pac there try Pro Pac Performance, 30/20. This food is just as good as Eukanuba for considerably less money.

You could also ask the store that carries Pro Pac if they can get you Primitive Natural 38/20. The same company makes both.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:38 am

molonlave1 wrote:Thanks for info,very informative and an eye opener.Again it doesnt solve the problem as the dog foods uve listed below your post are not available here.Think ive seen Call of the Wild or something to that effect but again very expensive here in SA,WE also have PRO PAC and HILLS,which one would u recommend out of the ones ive just mentioned,thanks.

Don't get too concerned about that post talking abou the ingredients as it is filled with misinformation. I am not a proponent of either food but rather I look for something cheaper from a company that sells in volume and has been around for years. There are a ton of good dog foods and very few bad ones. On the other hand there are a ton of old wife's tales and very few have any value except gossip.

If you noticed when the poster was asked about fillers he didn't answer. There is no such thing in a dog food but it is an easy way for someone to down grade a food without having to explain why. Truth is they probably can't.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:07 am

There is nothing absolute about "fillers"; it is purely relative and a function of price. The term is misused and very misleading. A dry food can't be 100% protein and fat, so it has to be something else. Right?

Overused grain products and potatoes are fillers when there could be more meat protein, and protein concentrates like "pea protein", "potato protein", "corn gluten" and "wheat gluten" are "fillers" when the other choices are chicken, beef, pork, egg and fish. So when it comes to the comment about Eukanuba that poster was wrong. There are no gluten meals in any Eukanuba food. And, that Eukunuba food has lower carbohydrate than most of the expensive foods mentioned.

Things like beet pulp are not fillers. If someone bothered to calculate how little beet pulp there is in a bag of dog food they would retract the statement. Also, you could argue the fresh meat in the expensive foods is really a "filler" because the way food is labeled the water counts.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:29 am

ProPac would be good. My trial dogs do well on Sport Mix, by the same manufacturer, 24/16, I think.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:50 am

mcbosco wrote:There is nothing absolute about "fillers"; it is purely relative and a function of price. The term is misused and very misleading. A dry food can't be 100% protein and fat, so it has to be something else. Right?

No, a feed can not be 100% protein and fat.

Overused grain products and potatoes are fillers when there could be more meat protein, and protein concentrates like "pea protein", "potato protein", "corn gluten" and "wheat gluten" are "fillers" when the other choices are chicken, beef, pork, egg and fish. So when it comes to the comment about Eukanuba that poster was wrong. There are no gluten meals in any Eukanuba food. And, that Eukunuba food has lower carbohydrate than most of the expensive foods mentioned.

This is an example of someone deciding what is the best formula and then any deviation from that is fillers. There is absolutely no basis for that assumption. Different feeds use different ingredients and there is no way you can call a good ingredient a filler because of personal dislike.

Things like beet pulp are not fillers. If someone bothered to calculate how little beet pulp there is in a bag of dog food they would retract the statement. Also, you could argue the fresh meat in the expensive foods is really a "filler" because the way food is labeled the water counts.

You are right about beet pulp being a good ingredient, but I remember not too long ago you were railing about a company using it when you had no idea what the purpose was of including it in the ration. There is no way a meat product of any kind is a filler. Maybe we need to go back to the definition of a filler. It is something added to the feed to FILL up the bag and provides absolutely no nutrition or physical qualities to the feed. Only one I can think of right off hand is sand.

Feeds do no contain fillers. Why would any company buy something that does nothing and then pay to ship it across the country. Nothing gained except a lot of expense. These arguments are starte by people who think they know more than a nutritionist and also think they can tell the formula of a feed by reading the label or bag. This whole line of thinking is based on suppition and not related to fact in any way.

Ezy

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:13 am

Am i correct in assuming there is nothing wrong with either eukanuba or royal canin,but between the two which would you experts choose for working/hunting dogs?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:50 am

molonlave1 wrote:Am i correct in assuming there is nothing wrong with either eukanuba or royal canin,but between the two which would you experts choose for working/hunting dogs?

Eukanuba.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:50 pm

and between eukanuba and pro-pac?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:10 pm

molonlave1 wrote:and between eukanuba and pro-pac?

Pro Pac.
All three feeds are decent feeds from what I have heard but the original two mentioned are just completely over priced in this country, more of the designer type feeds instead of a good feed developed for performance type animals.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:29 pm

ProPac on cost and they may give you a volume deal.

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Beet pulp doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever. Beet pulp is a controversial filler but is also a fiber source.

Example, Beneful has no nutritious value whatsoever. Beneful is like feeding your dog a bottle of store bought syrup for every meal.

Beneful Original ingredients: Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, water, meat and bone meal, propylene glycol, sugar, tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid, salt, animal digest, potassium chloride, sorbic acid (a preservative), dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, l-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, red 40, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, yellow 6, yellow 5, Vitamin A supplement, blue 2, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, brewers dried yeast, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.

If the first ingredient is corn in dog food, it just goes to show you how much corn is actually in the dog food. I don't see wild dogs eating ground yellow corn, wild dogs know what to eat and I can guarantee you that any dog will choose a piece of meat over corn.

The first five ingredients in Beneful Original are ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat. No nutrients in this food. The first three to five ingredients in dog food should be meat. There's not many good dog foods out there and Beneful (Purina), Royal Canin and Eukanuba are some of the worst ones you can feed. Really look at the ingredients before choosing what food to feed to your dog. It's unbelievable the crap they put in dog food. Corn, chicken by-product meal, whole wheat flour and animal fat have no health benefits whatsoever. How do you suppose to know what you're really feeding your dog if the ingredient is animal fat?

The other bad ingredients after the first five are rice flour (the second flour used in the food. White rice is used as a fattening but many dogs are allergic to white rice), beef (the thing about this food having beef in it is that Beneful is not a high quality food so they're going to use the lowest quality of beef you could imagine), soy flour (the third flour used in this food. Soy isn't a healthy food, a lot of dogs are allergic to soy), water (high quality foods never list water as an ingredient, never), meat and bone meal (what type of meat and bone meal? What type of animal?), propylene glycol (anti-freeze), sugar (cancer loves sugar, cancer feeds off of sugar. Sugar should never be listed in pet food, period), tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid (found in drywall), salt, animal digest (What type of animal?). This food also has artificial flavorings and colors, niacin and menadione (menadione, a cancer causing agent) in it. If your dog food is multicolored, throw it out because it's no good. If your dog food has any of these ingredients listed above in it, throw the food out and switch to a high quality dog food brand.

My recommendation to you is to switch to a high quality dog food such as Back to Basics Dog Food, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics - Grain Free, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen. Please stay away from Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Iams, Pedigree, Science Diet, Kibbles N Bits, Good Life, Ol'Roy, Dad's Dog Food, Bil Jac, Diamond, Abady, Authority, 4Health, etc. I do recommend you to research dog food. I don't know if you saw or read the links that I posted but here here they are again, please watch and read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

So many people just don't know about dog food and what's good and what's not. Eating potato chips and cookies is not a healthy diet for anyone. Eating a ton of wheat is not healthy for anyone. A diet based of meats, fruits and vegetables is a really good diet. A gluten free/wheat free/grain free diet is a great diet as well. A lot of dogs and people have allergies to wheat/gluten/grains and corn.

Ingredients are what makes the food what it is. Ingredients DO matter because the food you choose to feed will be the food that your dog is going to eat. It'll be your dog's daily diet.

I am not a believer in feeding a dog a kibble/food that has grains in it. A dogs kibble/food should be completely grain free. I do not believe grains give you energy. Dogs are going to have so much more energy and are going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality diet FREE of grains/wheat/gluten, unnamed meats, by-products, fillers, sugars, corns, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors than a dog who is eating a food with any of these ingredients in it. Same goes with people, people are going to be so much healthier eating a diet free of grains/wheat/gluten, fillers, sugars, corn, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors, etc, than someone who does eat foods with these ingredients in them on a daily basis.

Your dog is going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality food (any of the ones I recommended above are great). Good luck choosing and finding the right dog food to feed to your dog. A raw diet is another great diet, a raw diet is the best diet you can feed to your dog. A raw diet consists of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. Here are some very informative articles on feeding a raw food diet:

http://www.saddogsushi.com/faqs.html
http://www.healinghope.net/downloads/ca ... basics.pdf
http://rawdogranch.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.bravorawdiet.com/whyrawdiets.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.netrophic.com/rawfeeding/
http://manteega.com/packlunch/articles/ ... alhome.htm
http://www.saddogsushi.com/why_raw.html

Dogs are carnivores.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:There is nothing absolute about "fillers"; it is purely relative and a function of price. The term is misused and very misleading. A dry food can't be 100% protein and fat, so it has to be something else. Right?

No, a feed can not be 100% protein and fat.
Overused grain products and potatoes are fillers when there could be more meat protein, and protein concentrates like "pea protein", "potato protein", "corn gluten" and "wheat gluten" are "fillers" when the other choices are chicken, beef, pork, egg and fish. So when it comes to the comment about Eukanuba that poster was wrong. There are no gluten meals in any Eukanuba food. And, that Eukunuba food has lower carbohydrate than most of the expensive foods mentioned.
This is an example of someone deciding what is the best formula and then any deviation from that is fillers. There is absolutely no basis for that assumption. Different feeds use different ingredients and there is no way you can call a good ingredient a filler because of personal dislike.

Things like beet pulp are not fillers. If someone bothered to calculate how little beet pulp there is in a bag of dog food they would retract the statement. Also, you could argue the fresh meat in the expensive foods is really a "filler" because the way food is labeled the water counts.
You are right about beet pulp being a good ingredient, but I remember not too long ago you were railing about a company using it when you had no idea what the purpose was of including it in the ration. There is no way a meat product of any kind is a filler. Maybe we need to go back to the definition of a filler. It is something added to the feed to FILL up the bag and provides absolutely no nutrition or physical qualities to the feed. Only one I can think of right off hand is sand.

Feeds do no contain fillers. Why would any company buy something that does nothing and then pay to ship it across the country. Nothing gained except a lot of expense. These arguments are starte by people who think they know more than a nutritionist and also think they can tell the formula of a feed by reading the label or bag. This whole line of thinking is based on suppition and not related to fact in any way.

Ezy

Filler is relative. Cheap plant-based protein is not used for any reason other than cost. Corn gluten is used rather than high-quality, low ash animal protein because it is cheaper. Lower quality products use corn gluten for one reason and that is cost.

There is nothing magic about corn gluten, so don't make it sound like the nutritionist picked it for some complex nutritional reason. The accounting department picked it. Pro Plan uses it liberally for profit reasons. Eukanuba uses better quality ingredients but it costs quite a bit more. There is nothing wrong with Pro Plan at all but you can't say that the very liberal use of corn gluten is because it plays a special role or Purina thinks it is better. In fact, if you go back a few years there was no corn gluten in Pro Plan.

I don't like the term "filler" either because it only has meaning on a comparative basis. Corn gluten is indeed a "filler" compared to the best quality protein meals, including by-product meals, which are good products.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:33 pm

Pro Pac all the way. Also look for earthborn, eagle pack, sportmix. All good feeds and priced right in the states.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:39 pm

B&BWeims wrote:Beet pulp doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever. Beet pulp is a controversial filler but is also a fiber source.

Example, Beneful has no nutritious value whatsoever. Beneful is like feeding your dog a bottle of store bought syrup for every meal.

Beneful Original ingredients: Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, water, meat and bone meal, propylene glycol, sugar, tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid, salt, animal digest, potassium chloride, sorbic acid (a preservative), dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, l-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, red 40, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, yellow 6, yellow 5, Vitamin A supplement, blue 2, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, brewers dried yeast, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.

If the first ingredient is corn in dog food, it just goes to show you how much corn is actually in the dog food. I don't see wild dogs eating ground yellow corn, wild dogs know what to eat and I can guarantee you that any dog will choose a piece of meat over corn.

The first five ingredients in Beneful Original are ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat. No nutrients in this food. The first three to five ingredients in dog food should be meat. There's not many good dog foods out there and Beneful (Purina), Royal Canin and Eukanuba are some of the worst ones you can feed. Really look at the ingredients before choosing what food to feed to your dog. It's unbelievable the crap they put in dog food. Corn, chicken by-product meal, whole wheat flour and animal fat have no health benefits whatsoever. How do you suppose to know what you're really feeding your dog if the ingredient is animal fat?

The other bad ingredients after the first five are rice flour (the second flour used in the food. White rice is used as a fattening but many dogs are allergic to white rice), beef (the thing about this food having beef in it is that Beneful is not a high quality food so they're going to use the lowest quality of beef you could imagine), soy flour (the third flour used in this food. Soy isn't a healthy food, a lot of dogs are allergic to soy), water (high quality foods never list water as an ingredient, never), meat and bone meal (what type of meat and bone meal? What type of animal?), propylene glycol (anti-freeze), sugar (cancer loves sugar, cancer feeds off of sugar. Sugar should never be listed in pet food, period), tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid (found in drywall), salt, animal digest (What type of animal?). This food also has artificial flavorings and colors, niacin and menadione (menadione, a cancer causing agent) in it. If your dog food is multicolored, throw it out because it's no good. If your dog food has any of these ingredients listed above in it, throw the food out and switch to a high quality dog food brand.

My recommendation to you is to switch to a high quality dog food such as Back to Basics Dog Food, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics - Grain Free, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen. Please stay away from Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Iams, Pedigree, Science Diet, Kibbles N Bits, Good Life, Ol'Roy, Dad's Dog Food, Bil Jac, Diamond, Abady, Authority, 4Health, etc. I do recommend you to research dog food. I don't know if you saw or read the links that I posted but here here they are again, please watch and read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

So many people just don't know about dog food and what's good and what's not. Eating potato chips and cookies is not a healthy diet for anyone. Eating a ton of wheat is not healthy for anyone. A diet based of meats, fruits and vegetables is a really good diet. A gluten free/wheat free/grain free diet is a great diet as well. A lot of dogs and people have allergies to wheat/gluten/grains and corn.

Ingredients are what makes the food what it is. Ingredients DO matter because the food you choose to feed will be the food that your dog is going to eat. It'll be your dog's daily diet.

I am not a believer in feeding a dog a kibble/food that has grains in it. A dogs kibble/food should be completely grain free. I do not believe grains give you energy. Dogs are going to have so much more energy and are going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality diet FREE of grains/wheat/gluten, unnamed meats, by-products, fillers, sugars, corns, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors than a dog who is eating a food with any of these ingredients in it. Same goes with people, people are going to be so much healthier eating a diet free of grains/wheat/gluten, fillers, sugars, corn, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors, etc, than someone who does eat foods with these ingredients in them on a daily basis.

A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein. Dogs are carnivores.

Your dog is going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality food (any of the ones I recommended above are great). Good luck choosing and finding the right dog food to feed to your dog. A raw diet is another great diet, a raw diet is the best diet you can feed to your dog. A raw diet consists of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. Here are some very informative articles on feeding a raw food diet: http://www.saddogsushi.com/faqs.html
http://www.healinghope.net/downloads/ca ... basics.pdf
http://rawdogranch.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.bravorawdiet.com/whyrawdiets.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.netrophic.com/rawfeeding/
http://manteega.com/packlunch/articles/ ... alhome.htm
http://www.saddogsushi.com/why_raw.html

Did he ask about beneful?

You can parrot whatever site you'd like, doesn't make you right.

Many performance dogs have done well on foods mentioned. How do you argue the many ribbons won on feeds that do not meet your standards or misinformation?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:47 pm

I think someones buying kool-aid in bulk.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:25 pm

i agree mostly with B&B
i feed raw as a primary source, and dried food as a secondary food.
raw includes bones , chicken frames/necks , turkey legs/wings, roo meat/bones, possum, venison, pasta, vegetabes (NOT root vegetables), eggs, a little milk, bread, meat & vegetable dog roll.
the dried food i use is used by working cattle/sheep dogs on the properties i hunt. those dogs do well on it as do mine.
there is a limited range of foods here most are cheap & full of crap as noted in some of the above posts, we do have Eukanuba Pro Plan etc. but are too expensive or lousy ingredients for 4 dogs of differing ages & work requirements. i never feed canned.
this is the one i use.
http://www.coprice.com.au/g-working-dog-food
mine get app. half the suggested quantity per body weight as a supplement with raw
usually i wet it down , that way when i travel & they get only dried with water to help rehydrate.

........tasi

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:31 pm

Angus wrote:
B&BWeims wrote:Beet pulp doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever. Beet pulp is a controversial filler but is also a fiber source.

Example, Beneful has no nutritious value whatsoever. Beneful is like feeding your dog a bottle of store bought syrup for every meal.

Beneful Original ingredients: Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, water, meat and bone meal, propylene glycol, sugar, tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid, salt, animal digest, potassium chloride, sorbic acid (a preservative), dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, l-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, red 40, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, yellow 6, yellow 5, Vitamin A supplement, blue 2, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, brewers dried yeast, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.

If the first ingredient is corn in dog food, it just goes to show you how much corn is actually in the dog food. I don't see wild dogs eating ground yellow corn, wild dogs know what to eat and I can guarantee you that any dog will choose a piece of meat over corn.

The first five ingredients in Beneful Original are ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat. No nutrients in this food. The first three to five ingredients in dog food should be meat. There's not many good dog foods out there and Beneful (Purina), Royal Canin and Eukanuba are some of the worst ones you can feed. Really look at the ingredients before choosing what food to feed to your dog. It's unbelievable the crap they put in dog food. Corn, chicken by-product meal, whole wheat flour and animal fat have no health benefits whatsoever. How do you suppose to know what you're really feeding your dog if the ingredient is animal fat?

The other bad ingredients after the first five are rice flour (the second flour used in the food. White rice is used as a fattening but many dogs are allergic to white rice), beef (the thing about this food having beef in it is that Beneful is not a high quality food so they're going to use the lowest quality of beef you could imagine), soy flour (the third flour used in this food. Soy isn't a healthy food, a lot of dogs are allergic to soy), water (high quality foods never list water as an ingredient, never), meat and bone meal (what type of meat and bone meal? What type of animal?), propylene glycol (anti-freeze), sugar (cancer loves sugar, cancer feeds off of sugar. Sugar should never be listed in pet food, period), tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid (found in drywall), salt, animal digest (What type of animal?). This food also has artificial flavorings and colors, niacin and menadione (menadione, a cancer causing agent) in it. If your dog food is multicolored, throw it out because it's no good. If your dog food has any of these ingredients listed above in it, throw the food out and switch to a high quality dog food brand.

My recommendation to you is to switch to a high quality dog food such as Back to Basics Dog Food, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics - Grain Free, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen. Please stay away from Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Iams, Pedigree, Science Diet, Kibbles N Bits, Good Life, Ol'Roy, Dad's Dog Food, Bil Jac, Diamond, Abady, Authority, 4Health, etc. I do recommend you to research dog food. I don't know if you saw or read the links that I posted but here here they are again, please watch and read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

So many people just don't know about dog food and what's good and what's not. Eating potato chips and cookies is not a healthy diet for anyone. Eating a ton of wheat is not healthy for anyone. A diet based of meats, fruits and vegetables is a really good diet. A gluten free/wheat free/grain free diet is a great diet as well. A lot of dogs and people have allergies to wheat/gluten/grains and corn.

Ingredients are what makes the food what it is. Ingredients DO matter because the food you choose to feed will be the food that your dog is going to eat. It'll be your dog's daily diet.

I am not a believer in feeding a dog a kibble/food that has grains in it. A dogs kibble/food should be completely grain free. I do not believe grains give you energy. Dogs are going to have so much more energy and are going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality diet FREE of grains/wheat/gluten, unnamed meats, by-products, fillers, sugars, corns, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors than a dog who is eating a food with any of these ingredients in it. Same goes with people, people are going to be so much healthier eating a diet free of grains/wheat/gluten, fillers, sugars, corn, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors, etc, than someone who does eat foods with these ingredients in them on a daily basis.

A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein. Dogs are carnivores.

Your dog is going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality food (any of the ones I recommended above are great). Good luck choosing and finding the right dog food to feed to your dog. A raw diet is another great diet, a raw diet is the best diet you can feed to your dog. A raw diet consists of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. Here are some very informative articles on feeding a raw food diet: http://www.saddogsushi.com/faqs.html
http://www.healinghope.net/downloads/ca ... basics.pdf
http://rawdogranch.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.bravorawdiet.com/whyrawdiets.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.netrophic.com/rawfeeding/
http://manteega.com/packlunch/articles/ ... alhome.htm
http://www.saddogsushi.com/why_raw.html
Did he ask about beneful?

You can parrot whatever site you'd like, doesn't make you right.

Many performance dogs have done well on foods mentioned. How do you argue the many ribbons won on feeds that do not meet your standards or misinformation?

No, he didn't ask about Beneful that's why I said in my post that it was an EXAMPLE. Just because they look and do "well" doesn't mean they're healthy dogs.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:38 pm

No, he didn't ask about Beneful that's why I said in my post that it was an EXAMPLE. Just because they look and do "well" doesn't mean they're healthy dogs.

Really??? What do you consider healthy?

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:39 pm

mcbosco wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:There is nothing absolute about "fillers"; it is purely relative and a function of price. The term is misused and very misleading. A dry food can't be 100% protein and fat, so it has to be something else. Right?

No, a feed can not be 100% protein and fat.
Overused grain products and potatoes are fillers when there could be more meat protein, and protein concentrates like "pea protein", "potato protein", "corn gluten" and "wheat gluten" are "fillers" when the other choices are chicken, beef, pork, egg and fish. So when it comes to the comment about Eukanuba that poster was wrong. There are no gluten meals in any Eukanuba food. And, that Eukunuba food has lower carbohydrate than most of the expensive foods mentioned.
This is an example of someone deciding what is the best formula and then any deviation from that is fillers. There is absolutely no basis for that assumption. Different feeds use different ingredients and there is no way you can call a good ingredient a filler because of personal dislike.

Things like beet pulp are not fillers. If someone bothered to calculate how little beet pulp there is in a bag of dog food they would retract the statement. Also, you could argue the fresh meat in the expensive foods is really a "filler" because the way food is labeled the water counts.
You are right about beet pulp being a good ingredient, but I remember not too long ago you were railing about a company using it when you had no idea what the purpose was of including it in the ration. There is no way a meat product of any kind is a filler. Maybe we need to go back to the definition of a filler. It is something added to the feed to FILL up the bag and provides absolutely no nutrition or physical qualities to the feed. Only one I can think of right off hand is sand.

Feeds do no contain fillers. Why would any company buy something that does nothing and then pay to ship it across the country. Nothing gained except a lot of expense. These arguments are starte by people who think they know more than a nutritionist and also think they can tell the formula of a feed by reading the label or bag. This whole line of thinking is based on suppition and not related to fact in any way.

Ezy
Filler is relative. Cheap plant-based protein is not used for any reason other than cost. Corn gluten is used rather than high-quality, low ash animal protein because it is cheaper. Lower quality products use corn gluten for one reason and that is cost.

There is nothing magic about corn gluten, so don't make it sound like the nutritionist picked it for some complex nutritional reason. The accounting department picked it. Pro Plan uses it liberally for profit reasons. Eukanuba uses better quality ingredients but it costs quite a bit more. There is nothing wrong with Pro Plan at all but you can't say that the very liberal use of corn gluten is because it plays a special role or Purina thinks it is better. In fact, if you go back a few years there was no corn gluten in Pro Plan.

I don't like the term "filler" either because it only has meaning on a comparative basis. Corn gluten is indeed a "filler" compared to the best quality protein meals, including by-product meals, which are good products.

If you only knew how much study and time goes into formulating a food with the correct balance of amino acids, vitamins, and minerals you might have a basic undertanding of which you speak. Till then you don't and it shows.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:50 pm

A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein. Dogs are carnivores.

B&B,

This one sentence gives away the level of your knowledge as everything it says is completly wrong. Explain about the feed that is 100% protein not having any moisture, mineral, or fiber in it. Plus dogs are not carnivores. That was an old time thought till they were studied quite a few years go.

Ezzy

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein. Dogs are carnivores.
B&B,

This one sentence gives away the level of your knowledge as everything it says is completly wrong. Explain about the feed that is 100% protein not having any moisture, mineral, or fiber in it. Plus dogs are not carnivores. That was an old time thought till they were studied quite a few years go.

Ezzy

I like this one better,

A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein.

A raw diet is another great diet, a raw diet is the best diet you can feed to your dog. A raw diet consists of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs.

I didn't know bone was 100% protein.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:01 pm

B&BWeims wrote:
Angus wrote:
B&BWeims wrote:Beet pulp doesn't have any nutritional value whatsoever. Beet pulp is a controversial filler but is also a fiber source.

Example, Beneful has no nutritious value whatsoever. Beneful is like feeding your dog a bottle of store bought syrup for every meal.

Beneful Original ingredients: Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, water, meat and bone meal, propylene glycol, sugar, tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid, salt, animal digest, potassium chloride, sorbic acid (a preservative), dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, l-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, red 40, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, yellow 6, yellow 5, Vitamin A supplement, blue 2, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, brewers dried yeast, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.

If the first ingredient is corn in dog food, it just goes to show you how much corn is actually in the dog food. I don't see wild dogs eating ground yellow corn, wild dogs know what to eat and I can guarantee you that any dog will choose a piece of meat over corn.

The first five ingredients in Beneful Original are ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat. No nutrients in this food. The first three to five ingredients in dog food should be meat. There's not many good dog foods out there and Beneful (Purina), Royal Canin and Eukanuba are some of the worst ones you can feed. Really look at the ingredients before choosing what food to feed to your dog. It's unbelievable the crap they put in dog food. Corn, chicken by-product meal, whole wheat flour and animal fat have no health benefits whatsoever. How do you suppose to know what you're really feeding your dog if the ingredient is animal fat?

The other bad ingredients after the first five are rice flour (the second flour used in the food. White rice is used as a fattening but many dogs are allergic to white rice), beef (the thing about this food having beef in it is that Beneful is not a high quality food so they're going to use the lowest quality of beef you could imagine), soy flour (the third flour used in this food. Soy isn't a healthy food, a lot of dogs are allergic to soy), water (high quality foods never list water as an ingredient, never), meat and bone meal (what type of meat and bone meal? What type of animal?), propylene glycol (anti-freeze), sugar (cancer loves sugar, cancer feeds off of sugar. Sugar should never be listed in pet food, period), tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid (found in drywall), salt, animal digest (What type of animal?). This food also has artificial flavorings and colors, niacin and menadione (menadione, a cancer causing agent) in it. If your dog food is multicolored, throw it out because it's no good. If your dog food has any of these ingredients listed above in it, throw the food out and switch to a high quality dog food brand.

My recommendation to you is to switch to a high quality dog food such as Back to Basics Dog Food, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics - Grain Free, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen. Please stay away from Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Iams, Pedigree, Science Diet, Kibbles N Bits, Good Life, Ol'Roy, Dad's Dog Food, Bil Jac, Diamond, Abady, Authority, 4Health, etc. I do recommend you to research dog food. I don't know if you saw or read the links that I posted but here here they are again, please watch and read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

So many people just don't know about dog food and what's good and what's not. Eating potato chips and cookies is not a healthy diet for anyone. Eating a ton of wheat is not healthy for anyone. A diet based of meats, fruits and vegetables is a really good diet. A gluten free/wheat free/grain free diet is a great diet as well. A lot of dogs and people have allergies to wheat/gluten/grains and corn.

Ingredients are what makes the food what it is. Ingredients DO matter because the food you choose to feed will be the food that your dog is going to eat. It'll be your dog's daily diet.

I am not a believer in feeding a dog a kibble/food that has grains in it. A dogs kibble/food should be completely grain free. I do not believe grains give you energy. Dogs are going to have so much more energy and are going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality diet FREE of grains/wheat/gluten, unnamed meats, by-products, fillers, sugars, corns, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors than a dog who is eating a food with any of these ingredients in it. Same goes with people, people are going to be so much healthier eating a diet free of grains/wheat/gluten, fillers, sugars, corn, chemicals, artificial flavorings and colors, etc, than someone who does eat foods with these ingredients in them on a daily basis.

A dog's diet can be 100% protein depending on the food you feed such as a raw food diet which is a diet that consists of 100% protein. Dogs are carnivores.

Your dog is going to be so much more healthier eating a high quality food (any of the ones I recommended above are great). Good luck choosing and finding the right dog food to feed to your dog. A raw diet is another great diet, a raw diet is the best diet you can feed to your dog. A raw diet consists of 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organs. Here are some very informative articles on feeding a raw food diet: http://www.saddogsushi.com/faqs.html
http://www.healinghope.net/downloads/ca ... basics.pdf
http://rawdogranch.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.bravorawdiet.com/whyrawdiets.html
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.netrophic.com/rawfeeding/
http://manteega.com/packlunch/articles/ ... alhome.htm
http://www.saddogsushi.com/why_raw.html
Did he ask about beneful?

You can parrot whatever site you'd like, doesn't make you right.

Many performance dogs have done well on foods mentioned. How do you argue the many ribbons won on feeds that do not meet your standards or misinformation?
No, he didn't ask about Beneful that's why I said in my post that it was an EXAMPLE. Just because they look and do "well" doesn't mean they're healthy dogs.

I beg to differ.

How can a dog perform day in and day out while living to max expected age if they are not healthy? I would love for all of the dogs on this forum to line up in a line and have you pick out the unhealthy dogs. I'd bring the beer for all just to have a hoot.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:02 pm

Dogs are Omnivores. They've evolved as dogs and not wolves. Now meat should be a large part of their diet and the number 1 protein source IN MY OPINION, they do fine and live healthy happy lives with grains, berries, and veggies mixed in.

100% protein diet would kill a dog. Have with that.

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:09 pm

Dogs ARE carnivores.

* All information belongs to http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html *

MYTHS: DOGS ARE OMNIVORES

This is false. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. Dogs ARE very adaptable, but just because they can survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean it is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.

1.) Dentition

Look into your dog or cat's mouth. Those huge impressive teeth (or tiny needle sharp teeth) are designed for grabbing, ripping, tearing, shredding, and shearing meat (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 258.). They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite (along with the rest of their teeth) that powerfully disposes of meat, bone, and hide. Carnivores are equipped with a peculiar set of teeth that includes the presence of carnassial teeth: the fourth upper premolar and first lower molar.

Contrast this with your own teeth or the teeth of a black bear. A black bear is a true omnivore, as are we. We have nice, large, flat molars that can grind up veggies. Black bears, while having impressive canine teeth, also have large flat molars in the back of their mouth to assist in grinding up plant matter. Dogs and most canids lack these kinds of molars. Why? Because they don't eat plant matter. Teeth are highly specialized and are structured specifically for the diet the animal eats, and the difference between a bear's teeth and a dog's teeth (both species are in Order Carnivora) demonstrates how this can be (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 260.). To see a visual comparison of the teeth of a dog to the teeth of a black bear, please click here. One can logically ask: If a dog (or cat or ferret) has the dentition of a carnivorous animal, why do we feed it pelleted, grain-based food?

2.) Musculature and external anatomy

Dogs (and cats) are equipped with powerful jaw muscles and neck muscles that assist in pulling down prey and chewing meat, bone, and hide. Their jaws hinge open widely, allowing them to gulp large chunks of meat and bone. Their skulls are heavy, and are shaped to prevent lateral movement of the lower jaw when captured prey struggles (the mandibular fossa is deep and C-shaped); this shape permits only an up-and-down crushing motion, whereas herbivores and omnivores have flatter mandibular fossa that allows for the lateral motion necessary to grind plant matter (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 258-259.). Consider this quote from the previously-cited Mammology text:

"Canids, felids, and mustelids subsist mainly on freshly killed prey. These families show correspondingly greater development in 'tooth and claw'; they also have greater carnassial development and cursorial locomotion." (pg 260)

This translates to a simple fact: everything about a dog or cat's body design says they were designed for a carnivorous, hunting lifestyle geared toward killing prey. However, humans have done some major tinkering with this body design (resulting in varying sizes and conformations), but we have done nothing to change the internal anatomy and physiology of our carnivorous canines.

3.) Internal anatomy and physiology

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Is the dog an omnivore? Its dentition, internal and external anatomy, and physiology say it is not. Even its evolutionary history (discussed later) says the dog is a carnivore. So when people tell you the dog is an omnivore, ask: "What about this animal makes you think it is an omnivore?" Make them explain their position to you before you explain yours. Chances are they'll cite this next myth as "proof".

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Just because they look and do "well" doesn't mean they're healthy dogs.

Could a group of unhealthy dogs win the Iditarod?

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:19 pm

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Deleted because of possible copyright infringement. Ezzy

B&BWeims · Post by **B&BWeims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:27 pm

B&BWeims wrote:http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Deleted because of possible copyright infringement. Ezzy

I listed the site that the information belongs to.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:35 pm

If I were to only get my info from a corn mill and list it, I'd expect it to be pro corn. Just because you believe the source and it's info, doesn't make it correct. In fact I would say that your source is completely wrong.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:36 pm

Oh, cats are carnivores, but this sin't a cat site. So your source got something right.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:44 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:ProPac would be good. My trial dogs do well on Sport Mix, by the same manufacturer, 24/16, I think.

I think it would be either the 26/18 or the 24/20. My dogs and I really like the 24/20 formula.

Charlie

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:21 am

B&BWeims wrote:
My recommendation to you is to switch to a high quality dog food such as Back to Basics Dog Food, Orijen, Acana, Merrick Grain Free, Timberwolf Organics - Grain Free, SoJos and The Honest Kitchen. Please stay away from Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Iams, Pedigree, Science Diet, Kibbles N Bits, Good Life, Ol'Roy, Dad's Dog Food, Bil Jac, Diamond, Abady, Authority, 4Health, etc. I do recommend you to research dog food. I don't know if you saw or read the links that I posted but here here they are again, please watch and read: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9DTzDfYMxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359

B&B Weims Can you read?

The question was asked by a person from South Africa that only has 2 choices of quality foods so why would you recommend that they switch to brands not available to them?

Molon try both foods and which ever your dogs do best with then stick with that brand. No need to over think this.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:26 pm

birddogger wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:ProPac would be good. My trial dogs do well on Sport Mix, by the same manufacturer, 24/16, I think.
I think it would be either the 26/18 or the 24/20. My dogs and I really like the 24/20 formula.

Charlie

I think it is 24/20. Higher proportional fat than many foods.

CacaoandNilla · Post by **CacaoandNilla** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:16 pm

I have not used that variety but have used both Euk and RC labrador formula in the past and they worked well for my lab. As far as quality I think they are about the same. The price is near the same too

some people rotate in case of recall, etc